Feelings on MK and the MK ban after Apex

[zmx]

It's kind of sad SFP had to display the trollface so people realize he's trolling.
I mean he isn't exactly subtle.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

hey mk players if you aren't winning every match by doing nothing, then you need to GET BETTER and stop whining that you can't win every set with your broken**** character, obviously you are playing a broken character and just aren't doing it right

Yeah enough of this.

 

[Bobwithlobsters]

Japan wins Brawl, Europe win Melee, Canada wins 64 and USA wins AllBrawl... LOL but seriously, theres a reason we got outplayed by Japan. Japan doesnt play for money normally. What drives them isnt material, its the will to win. They want to be the best and so they practice every matchup and they think about every move they make. They play smart. They are relaxed when they play and the phrase momentum, doesnt exist with them. For instance when Nario lost a stock, he would lose focus, as most USA smashers do. When Otori screws up, he dont let it affect his gameplay, and niether do any other of the japaneese. They dont think about it at all, they just keep a level head. Also they never blame a MU or a stage for losing. They blame thermselves and then look to improve, not rely on a counterpick. Their rulesets are very different. Like I said they don't have counterpicks, they only play Smashville, FD and Battlefeild. Also dont have a ledge grab limit, they have a minimum ground time rule in effect so u can just fly around and plank. I'm pretty sure theres some kind of rule with chaingrabbing but im not entirely sure how it works. In teams I'll bet in teams that Omnigay thing is banned too. Basically, our rulesets were designed to limit mk, while japans focuses on balancing the game so that the outcome resting soley on the skill of the players. It shudnt be whats in the tv that depicts the outcome, it shud be the one behind the tv.

Want to explain how fd is not counter pick material? Fd is just as polarizing as any of our counter picks. Their whole stage list is just aimed more towards ground based characters.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

just hit them once and do nothing for the next 9 minutes, it works

man you guys are such scrubs, whining that you can't use a broken char

lmao

 

[JTsm]

He's not broken though.

 

[zmx]

People are still taking SFP seriously.

Yup.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I just want the people using the "get better" argument to know you look equally dumb from our side. fyi

 

[Strong Badam]

So basically you're straw manning badly

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

That's all ant-ban has ever done, idk

 

[fkacyan]

That's all ant-ban has ever done, idk

Wow

No

Just get the **** out

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I think the question of, "Is he broken enough?" Is up to the community as a group.

 

[Thino]

just hit them once and do nothing for the next 9 minutes, it works

man you guys are such scrubs, whining that you can't use a broken char

lmao

I know you're trolling but you do realize that not many Metaknight players are complaining about losing with their "broken" character, right?

I think the question of, "Is he broken enough?" Is up to the community as a group.

No, it is up to the 76% of the community that assume think he's broken in the first place, not the rest

 

[Strong Badam]

That's all ant-ban has ever done, idk

I am not now and will never be against the banning of ants. They are overcentralizing to the metagame even if they aren't broken.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

No, it is up to the 76% of the community that assume think he's broken in the first place, not the rest

Exactly.

The majority said get rid of him, so it was done.

This is perfectly reasonable to do.

 

[Cassio]

Theres a strong possibility that the majority want RC and Brinstar banned as well. Whats up with that? lol

SFP you are going a bit off the deep end, lol. Youre capable of making good points, just ignore the bad posts.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Theres a strong possibility that the majority want RC and Brinstar banned as well. Whats up with that? lol

SFP you are going a bit off the deep end, lol. Youre capable of making good points, just ignore the bad posts.

Got proof of this?

 

[BSP]

That should be a poll

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Exactly.

The URC did just that to get a feel of what the community wanted for MK.

 

[Ussi]

I'd want both RC/Brinstar and MK gone tbh

I'm kinda liking the whole stick to the basic stages a bit..

 

[Cassio]

Got proof of this?

Actually I do.

 

[Bobwithlobsters]

Actually I do.

curious of your data. Give details please. I am wondering if it is a 2/3 super majority like we had for the mk ban.

 

[DMG]

Brinstar yes, RC was probably closer to 50/50.

That's assuming a poll was taken about it.

 

[Kimidori]

Why would people want to ban MK in the first place? So what if he's good. It's your fault if you're getting beat by him anyway, not his

But seriously, banning MK should've never come up. There's always gonna be MK players. But who cares? It's just another character. It's not as if he gives a free win. Unless counterpicks are available, anyway. Stage list should be FD, SV, BF, Frigate, Yoshi's Island, and maybe PS1. No Halberd, no Delfino. Just those five. And for those who want to say that would give ground characters an advantage, then you're just being stubborn and will never come to a compromise. Much like most of the URC.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Actually I do.

Please show it then.

 

[Blue Warrior]

Why would people want to ban MK in the first place?

Is this rhetorical, or are we allowed to give an answer on this?

 

[Bobwithlobsters]

Is this rhetorical, or are we allowed to give an answer on this?

No because we are just being stubborn like the URC.

Besides it is obvious that the whole reason anyone wants to ban mk is cause we lost to him and now have a personal grudge because we aren't good enough to get better. Not at all because of collected data and reasoning. Just because we are sore losers.

 

[Kimidori]

No because we are just being stubborn like the URC.

Besides it is obvious that the whole reason anyone wants to ban mk is cause we lost to him and now have a personal grudge because we aren't good enough to get better. Not at all because of collected data and reasoning. Just because we are sore losers.

Yes, I'd LOVE to hear about this "collected data" you're talking about. Also, my statement was somewhat rhetorical because we shouldn't even be looking at banning a character that we obviously aren't even the best at using. Not to mention that he's not unbeatable nor does he have unbeatable tactics. If a character doesn't have accessible unbeatable tactics, then that character should not at all be banned.

Also the URC vote was biased. NONE of the voters are MK mains. It's easy to have a supermajority over a character being banned when none of the voters use that character.

 

[Bobwithlobsters]

Yes, I'd LOVE to hear about this "collected data" you're talking about. Also, my statement was somewhat rhetorical because we shouldn't even be looking at banning a character that we obviously aren't even the best at using. Not to mention that he's not unbeatable nor does he have unbeatable tactics. If a character doesn't have accessible unbeatable tactics, then that character should not at all be banned.

Also the URC vote was biased. NONE of the voters are MK mains. It's easy to have a supermajority over a character being banned when none of the voters use that character.

Not having any mk mains doesn't make them biased. By that logic they are all biased against captain falcon as well and probably a bunch of other characters because they don't haveperfect representation within a small group of players. I don't have john#s data on hand so maybe someone else can link it again to show the massive centralization of winnings on mk that he has specifically gets even more centralized if you knock out the outliers like m2k and ally.

No one is saying he is unbeatable but the argument that we don't know enough is stretch considering how many years we have been playing this game and they are already talking about the next smash brothers. Are we waiting till we find every single possible metagame aspect before making a decision cause that will never come then. Melee is still changing so if we are waiting untill the very best possible I think we never stop waiting.

 

[Blue Warrior]

Yes, I'd LOVE to hear about this "collected data" you're talking about.

Here are some. Metaknight is used nearly four times as often as any of the characters in the A tier, has won an overwhelming amount of cash compared to any other individual character, and while different nations may disagree on the overall composition of Brawl's character ladder, the tier lists all across the board agree that Metaknight is at the very top of the food chain, a lonely god in the S or S+ tier depending on who you ask.

Also, my statement was somewhat rhetorical because we shouldn't even be looking at banning a character that we obviously aren't even the best at using.

I am not a chef. Does that mean I'm not qualified to call this steak medium rare?

I believe those who play at a competitive level are qualified enough to judge the traits of a character and determine if they are ban-worthy. Skill is a helping factor, but experience, technical knowledge, and common sense are more important.

Not to mention that he's not unbeatable nor does he have unbeatable tactics. If a character doesn't have accessible unbeatable tactics, then that character should not at all be banned.

That is a very bold statement, and I daresay it is wrong. Remember how I quoted TF2? In their competitive scene, weapons that come out are often banned due to acquisition time, balance issues, the effect those items have on the game pacing, or just because they're completely unenjoyable mechanics. No weapon that has ever come out is unbeatable, but they upset the balanced gameplay of the competitive scene strongly enough that their board agrees for a ban.

Metaknight is a similar case. It is not unbeatable, and it goes toe to toe with a few top tier characters. That doesn't mean it isn't overpowered, and its level of power and ease of use has a very negative effect on the balance of the game, as is shown by the overwhelming numbers of metaknight players that come home with winning earnings more than any other character. Few people like playing against metaknight and probably fewer like watching metaknight being played so frequently, so clearly MK has an overall negative impact and stigma inside the competitive scene.

Also the URC vote was biased. NONE of the voters are MK mains. It's easy to have a supermajority over a character being banned when none of the voters use that character.

If I remember correctly, the public was polled before the board made a final vote on it. The public voted approximately 71% in favor of the ban, correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[Kimidori]

Not having any mk mains doesn't make them biased. By that logic they are all biased against captain falcon as well and probably a bunch of other characters because they don't haveperfect representation within a small group of players. I don't have john#s data on hand so maybe someone else can link it again to show the massive centralization of winnings on mk that he has specifically gets even more centralized if you knock out the outliers like m2k and ally.

No one is saying he is unbeatable but the argument that we don't know enough is stretch considering how many years we have been playing this game and they are already talking about the next smash brothers. Are we waiting till we find every single possible metagame aspect before making a decision cause that will never come then. Melee is still changing so if we are waiting untill the very best possible I think we never stop waiting.

You know the fact that He's used a lot is not a valid reason for a ban, right? It's not as if he's unfair or anything. The best character in the game is bound to be common anyway. Also, if you're talking about him winning an overcentralizing amount of money, watch this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jD11l3omQzM

Edit:
@Blue Warrior
Meta Knight does not at all have a negative effect on the community or competitive scene at all. Just because he's common doesn't mean a thing. Those who don't like to watch him play or play as him in general need to just plain get better at the game (It would be much easier if we reduced the stagelist). Also, just because he's common, again, does not at all justify a ban. Same with winning money, unless he's winning over 50% of tournaments (in which case I would most likely be for the ban).

As regards for your analogy, I am afraid I will have to call it poor, considering any novice when it comes to cooking, if they have seen the difference between one type of steak and another could call one steak medium rare. Lol.

Anyways, my point is, MK is common. He will always be. Why? he's the best character in the game. TBH, I think he would be less so however if we reduced our stage list.

 

[Bobwithlobsters]

You know the fact that He's used a lot is not a valid reason for a ban, right? It's not as if he's unfair or anything. The best character in the game is bound to be common anyway. Also, if you're talking about him winning an overcentralizing amount of money, watch this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jD11l3omQzM

If you are going to quote Mikehaze's arguments against John#s data you should post John#s defense of his data because he disagrees with a number of Mikehaze's arguments (to the best of my knowledge this is john#s stance, not gonna assume I know what goes on in their heads and understand their thinking exactly)

Here is where the reply is that John#s put up in response to that video

www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=13578522&pos*tcount=695

 

[Blue Warrior]

This also seems like a relevant quote from that thread:

Holy Cow. People need to take the 11% in context.

11% doesn't seem like much until you take a few things into consideration.

1. There are 36 characters in the game. If each character had equal representation, each character would have 2.7% representation. Even if the top 15 were the only viable characters in the game, you'd still have 6.6% representation.

2. MK's percent representation is greater than the next three or four characters PUT TOGETHER. This, my friends, is a "massive deviation from the population". I.E. the character is significantly different in some way.

I, for one, am neutral in the ban. I do not, however, approve of the misquotation of important data.

 

[John12346]

You know the fact that He's used a lot is not a valid reason for a ban, right? It's not as if he's unfair or anything. The best character in the game is bound to be common anyway. Also, if you're talking about him winning an overcentralizing amount of money, watch this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jD11l3omQzM

Oh boy, I get to showboat this rebuttal again(at least in the case of the money).

Whoops got ninja'd.

 

[Jdietz43]

I'm getting so many laughs out of this... dead serious. This thread is amazing.

Keep going anti-ban, you've almost got this...



Though I do appreciate the kind of info John is putting out there for reasons other than MK sillyness. It's interesting to know who needs secondaries to be effective and who can constitute a stand alone/main character. So for that a high five is deserved. *high five*

 

[Thino]

Keep going anti-ban, you've almost got this...

This is kinda easy to say when you got the majority on your side that agree on the ban for various reasons

This is the main factor that makes this debate sort of useless since whatever argument we, anti-ban, you guys can counter "Well guess what? we have the rest of the community on our side so the ban automatically makes sense"

Because honestly when we remove that, ever since that other Metaknight Ban thread from before Apex, no pro-ban has ever convinced me of the significance John's data has.

Yea those are facts, but what do they mean? how do you interpret them into thinking MK needs to banned? whats the value from where a character can be defined as broken?

To all these questions, all pro-bans answer were the same :

"The limits are arbitrary."

So basically, it's just people interpreting results, facts and data in a way that suits and benefits them. If you see things this way, then indeed there's no way for us anti-ban to convince or change you guys mind on the ban.

 

[Kimidori]

Either way, earning more money is no reason for banning a character. Do you think he would be so "different", or in other words, do you think he would win so much money if the stages were different? I want to hear this.

 

[Luxord]

I personally favor Japan's approach. They almost ENTIRELY only play on 3 stages, the problem isn't Meta Knight, it's the counterpicks available to him.

Rainbow Cruise and Frigate? Just eliminating those two will fix the game.

PS) I don't know any character who counterpicks Frigate BUT an MK.

 

[Blue Warrior]

If the data is inaccurate or unclear in its details or purpose, then I recede my case regarding the numbers.

The idea I'm trying to get across however, is that an important symptom of MK's dominance in earning money for tournaments, is the fact that tournaments see a lack of diversity in their matches. I'm in favor of the ban personally, at least from a spectator's standpoint, because I'm tired of seeing slews of matches where the character selection is dominantly one character with two or three following behind purely because they're able to contest with that one character; it could easily be a split battle between a ton of different top or near-top tier characters as we've seen with Melee, and the least convoluted solution to accomplish this is to simply get rid of Metaknight.

Either way, earning more money is no reason for banning a character. Do you think he would be so "different", or in other words, do you think he would win so much money if the stages were different? I want to hear this.

Surely, it would soften his superiority, but by how much? I would leave this question to someone more qualified to judge the effects that stages have on match-ups, but I will say this is merely continuing a strategy that was already tried by the Unity board, which was to make global rules designed to accommodate for one specific character.

 

[Thino]

The idea I'm trying to get across however, is that an important symptom of MK's dominance in earning money for tournaments, is the fact that tournaments see a lack of diversity in their matches.

Can you or any other pro-ban please explain to the importance of character diversity in a COMPETITIVE environment? I still have yet to understand that part.

 

[Black Mantis]

lol how many entrants? 32?

Entrants include ybm and blue rogue.
Do you consider those big names?