Feelings on MK and the MK ban after Apex

[WindMajor]

So it's not that MK is too good, it's that everyone else is too bad?

 

[Steam]

You're right about it not being the stages fault. But guess what, it's not MK's fault either. It's not his fault so many characters suck on some stages. It's our fault for keeping them on in the first place. I mean really, why do we have over 10 stages in Brawl, most of which give advantages, then only 6 stages in Melee, most of which are pretty damn equal?

It doesn't matter if mk is really good or the other characters are really bad. If he's out of their league he should be banned

 

[Kimidori]

It doesn't matter if mk is really good or the other characters are really bad. If he's out of their league he should be banned

I didn't at all say the characters are bad. Or that he's out of their league. He's only out of their league on RC and Brinstar and stages like that. Why would you even assume I said that?

 

[Attila_]

I'm confused now as one of the commentators on the Apex stream said he was talking to the japanese players and they corrected him when he said 'kyuubi', hmm.

That said, the Japanese players specifically corrected players and asked them to call him "Nine-B," so, let's start calling him that.

commentator in this match specifically called him 'kyuubi-san' repeatedly. unless he got it wrong, or it's changed recently.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ac089UCij80

Translation time. 9 is said as "Kyu" in Japanese. Bi would still be with the regular Katakana or Hirigana of "Hi", although it is pronounced based upon the planned word.

In other words, 9B is indeed pronounced Kyuubi, or Kyuuhi, depending who you ask.

no. this is wrong.

hi = ひ
bi = び

notice the dashes on 'bi'? they are written and used differently, and are most definitely not interchangable.

sorry for the irrelevant post, but it really annoyed me.

 

[Bobwithlobsters]

I didn't at all say the characters are bad. Or that he's out of their league. He's only out of their league on RC and Brinstar and stages like that. Why would you even assume I said that?

Thing is he is the only one that breaks rainbow cruise. Without him it becomes a very solid country pick for aerial characters like g&w and wario who don't break the stage but now have a counter pick of the same caliber as fd is for say falco olimar and ICs.

What DeLux is saying is exactly why I think the japanese have such a high concentration of both olimar and ICs. There stage list gives them both a large buff. But even with that buff mk is still s tier.

 

[ANTi_]

LOL WHAT?!?!?! Were you at the tournament or are you just speculating from that one set? Otori/Rain both consistently beat M2K in mk dittos, Otori beat pretty much every single one of our top mk players in MM's or in tournament, or pretty much all of the top 6 japanese beating almost all of our top players in MM's, even Otori beating M2K/Anti in teams, Nairo has never come close to doing something like that, especially with a mk player considered worse than himself.

NOT TO MENTION the fact that Otori has never won in japan AND LOSES TO OTHER MK PLAYERS THERE. Regardless of how close his set with Nairo was he still won, and still beat all our other players.

If you were at the tournament the level of skill the japanese were displaying was CLEARLY over ours, and pretty much all of our top players will tell you that.

How do you even bring teams into that equation lol.

 

[Strong Badam]

not every character can take advantage of this
like Ganon >__>

ganondorf isnt viable even if you banned the top half of the tier list so this is fairly irrelevant.

 

[Black Mantis]

ganondorf isnt viable even if you banned the top half of the tier list so this is fairly irrelevant.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=305979

 

[Jdietz43]

Kimidori makes the pro-ban argument so easy. You just quote him for any reason and you start to understand why MK needs to be banned.

 

[WindMajor]

I'm saying that MK is the only character that can abuse EVERY single stage to factor in his advantage. A lot of characters can only abuse a few, but the ones they can abuse give them a BIG advantage. I understand why you would think I'm not justifying myself, but I don't think I was clear enough. What I mean is, many characters are able to abuse stages, but Meta Knight just does it the best. So, regardless of Meta Knight, taking away stages would do the community VERY well. Do you understand now?

Also, I'm not suggesting "the opposite" of what I'm trying to do. We should remove stages, that's that. Of course everyone can use stages to their advantages, it's just Meta Knight can do it way better. Also, I think it's unfair because Meta Knight can counterpick any stage, and most other characters can't counterpick anything at all.

It's hard to understand what you want because you say that other characters get big advantages, but then you say that getting rid of those advantages is a good thing for the rest of the community. How is getting rid of something that gives the rest of the cast an advantage beneficial to them. On top of that, you acknowledge that Metaknight keeps his advantage of being good on every stage, while the others lose counterpicks, and you describe it as unfair.

How is something that's supposed to be beneficial also unfair?

 

[Thino]

Because planking is putting the character in a place where they can still be approached. Whether or not it breaks the game via risk/reward is another thing...

But with peach bomber and rising pound... it would be like if tethers never auto-dropped after awhile and you found a stage you could grapple the bottom of (like Dreamland) and just hung there. Anyone who wants to kill you dies in the process of getting to you to land the hit.

Edit: The community also decided that planking != stalling and thus it did not fall under the stalling rules. Putting yourself in an advantageous situation and forcing the other character to approach (or running away) was not seen as disabling the match from continuing at all, which is the key difference.

Then I think the community has a rather specific or complicated approach about stalling.

Stalling is or should be whatever technique/move that can be abused for the purpose of winning by time, and this regardless of the risk/reward, because if we start considering things such as disabling the match from continuing then as you mentioned, you can just kill someone stalling with Peach Bomber or Rising Pound and die in the process.

But since you said community I'm interested now, link me to the specific post that said planking != stalling.

 

[Gea]

I'd rather not dig through the old planking topics to try and find one, but during that time I always brought up, "if the problem is that MK is stalling, stalling is banned and therefore planking to run the timer is." I was always met with "planking is not stalling because the opponent can still approach." Which makes sense. Being in an advantageous position is not stalling the game.

I agree with you, stalling clauses shouldn't need additional specific rules like peach bomber and puff pound, but I wasn't the one who made those rulesets. But the idea is just that if the match cannot continue period, it's stalling, if the match can, it isn't. Then again, if there was no stalling clause for things like DDD's infinites, would they be stalling? The match is certainly still continuing... sort of.

 

[Orion*]

Thing is he is the only one that breaks rainbow cruise. Without him it becomes a very solid country pick for aerial characters like g&w and wario who don't break the stage but now have a counter pick of the same caliber as fd is for say falco olimar and ICs.

This argument is ***
characters that can fight MK here will still also do well on this stage and it remains an option for them.
characters that suck on this stage will still get CPed here and get camped/planked to death like falco.

Hence the ban of permanent walk offs. It over centralizes the game even match ups that aren't that polar to begin with.

If you think that walkoffs over centralize play, why is it so awkward or weird for other game changing stage mechanics to apply advantages to other characters? you don't think characters get advantages from having walls, or walkoffs show up, or having floors that you can go through on haldberd and delfino.

before you start ascribing all of these advantages and disadvantages to certain characters or matchups or whatever, can you even list where these options are being taken away or given to them from?

why does this community auto assume the worst for everything.

 

[Albert.]

Alpha Zealot is a huge huge tool

 

[fkacyan]

why does this community auto assume the worst for everything.

They spend so much time not in tourney that they have a lot of time to theorycraft.

 

[CowboyFromHell]

I went to my first Brawl tourney on the Jan. 14th, so MK was banned. While I hadn't had experience fighting competitive MKs, it was refreshing seeing all the variety I saw at this particular tourney. I got whooped by Pits, Diddy Kongs, Warios, Ice Climbers, everything really. So if the MK ban inspires more variety in who chooses characters, I'm all for it.

 

[SmashChu]

It most certainly does. M2k is infamous for losing matchups not named mk. Even snake seemed foreign to him for a while.
snake
Diddy
Olimar
Sonic
dedede
and now rob.

It's not a john. I'm simply stating facts. If you can NOT see in that video the BLATANT mistakes then you shouldn't even be playing this game. All i'm saying is the way m2k was playing it's no surprise ocean won. It was hype as hell. I was there cheering on ocean the whole time. But at the same time i recognize how terrible he was playing that mu.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ek1ZjOmjAXM again i cite this example.

Obviously all dedede's aren't trying hard enough and need to get better.Right?
Wrong. It's one of countless examples of m2k doing bad when he really shouldn't...

One reason people should not cite m2k so much...


Oh ya i'm not trying to dislodge any arguments here either...just saying citing m2k vs ocean is terrible in itself...

Citing otori or nietono would be much much more valid if anything.

Looking at the whole series, M2K still won it with a decent game in game 3 (1 life, 38 damage). You really can't look at a single game and make a good call. These things are played out in series, not games. You can have a bad game and it happens often (seen it in Sc2 a bit). You can still win the round and move on even with that bad game, which is what happens here. I really didn't see much of the game, but I can see M2K played bad. But he still won the other two. So he was playing well enough to win. He just had a bad game. When looking at Ocean, I looked at the whole series. The important fact is that Ocean moved on and M2K didn't (or went to losers, not sure). In the video you showed, M2K advances, not Coney. So that whole thing can't support an argument we're talking about because Dedede still lost. He just took a game off of M2K.


Of course, with all that said, Ocean beat M2K with a much weaker character and actually won the whole thing. According to the match-up chart in this forum, Meta-Knight is +2 against Dedede and +3 against ROB. Dedede is tier C and ROB is tier E. And the ROB won the series where the stronger character lost his similar series.

BTW, I'm not against looking at other games and players. This is the one I have been looking at. I'll look at the others when time allows it, so thanks for the names.

Omg I agree with Smashchu for once!

Kind of.

Except for the earlier Brawl/Melee comparison.

Smooth Criminal

Glad you do
But, as for the bold, why. I'd like to hear it.

 

[Strong Badam]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=305979

lol how many entrants? 32?

 

[DMG]

Good one.

Are you actually trying to argue that the limits that have been put in place like LGL or scrooging are intended to specifically target MK and that other characters dont NEED them?

Before we continue that, I'd like you to explain why Peach Bomber and Rising Pound are banned in Melee. because Peach and Jiggs are such unacceptable characters?

Well, take a look at them. What character besides MK specifically needs a scrooging rule? Out of the handful of characters that can actually glide, which ones need to be limited by a rule like that? Only possible argument you could even try to make is Pit.


For a LGL, the most flagrant abuser of the edge is MK hands down. Other characters you could consider would be Pit G^W Pikachu Marth (certain characters might have trouble with Samus doing it too or Mario or weird **** like that) DK. Bigger list than scrooging since other characters have annoying Upb's to deal with, but these characters also have wider holes in their coverage and also likely to have more specific holes. Limited by double jumps, bad vertical reach to stop the anti planker, predictable pattern to fully abuse invincibility, slow aerials that do not prevent the anti planker from immediately snapping the edge, etc. Funny how MK on the edge isn't a problem to some people, but darn DK vs Olimar is an abomination.


Having a LGL on the entire cast benefits the game despite not being a necessity. It's not necessary to limit bad planking characters from the edge. But we do it anyways. You still have a playable game if you take off the LGL and MK's not in the picture. No character needs it to stop turning into super best character. G^W unlimited on the edge is not second only to MK (unless your stage list was also atrocious like green greens Pipes etc. There he might be able to pull it off lol)


Having a LGL or a ground time rule or a scrooging rule... these rules are not born through necessity to salvage the game. There is no "the edge is inherently broken for everyone, so we need this" or "going under the stage with Ganon is too powerful, ban it."


But the game DOES need MK to be nerfed. MK DOES need a limit on the edge, a limit for flying under Smashville, a limit for doping around being a ******. Something to hold him back. That's the difference. Unless you think we should get rid of these changes and have a free game, but MK dominates that version of Brawl. No one wants to play a game where MK can grab the edge an unfathomable amount, but how many people would still play the game if DK had no LGL? How many people would still play if there was no scrooging rule on the rest of the cast, etc? Limiting MK specifically is more productive and the better decision to make than letting him go free, AND it's better than targeting the entire cast when the entire cast is not the problem. What's the point of using widespread universal rules that target even characters that can't abuse a strategy or aspect of the game that we deem broken, and then ignoring the characters that do? MK a problem on the edge, so we need a limit on Captain Falcon too. Or we're just using these universal changes to mask the fact that yeah we don't need half this **** on 90% of the cast, but just to be safe let's restrict the freedom of other characters too to keep MK down (while ignoring making anything MK specific because admitting that MK warrants attention is a big no no people).

>mk without LGL is broken
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Joyf8KKdg4

but no, we just kinda banned it after it happened once like with everything else in this scrubby community. kind of surprised we didn't ban IC's/DDD's infinites, though I'm glad we didn't.

Hue? Planking hasn't been a "1 and done" deal. We've had issues with LGL/planking from the start. I can remember a time where people tried LGL numbers like 100 or 80 or 50+. Where further down the road the number keeps shrinking as more events occur. Places in the Midwest and other parts of the country that would refuse to use it. Simply saying planking unabashedly occurred 1 specific time before we widespread banned it is ignorance.

 

[The Ben]

LGLs are stupid on principle though. It'd be like if you could only jump back x amount of times in a more traditional fighting game.

 

[Thino]

Well, take a look at them. What character besides MK specifically needs a scrooging rule? Out of the handful of characters that can actually glide, which ones need to be limited by a rule like that? Only possible argument you could even try to make is Pit.


For a LGL, the most flagrant abuser of the edge is MK hands down. Other characters you could consider would be Pit G^W Pikachu Marth (certain characters might have trouble with Samus doing it too or Mario or weird **** like that) DK. Bigger list than scrooging since other characters have annoying Upb's to deal with, but these characters also have wider holes in their coverage and also likely to have more specific holes. Limited by double jumps, bad vertical reach to stop the anti planker, predictable pattern to fully abuse invincibility, slow aerials that do not prevent the anti planker from immediately snapping the edge, etc. Funny how MK on the edge isn't a problem to some people, but darn DK vs Olimar is an abomination.


Having a LGL on the entire cast benefits the game despite not being a necessity. It's not necessary to limit bad planking characters from the edge. But we do it anyways. Ypu still have a playable game if you take off the LGL and MK's not in the picture. No character needs it to stop turning into super best character. G^W unlimited on the edge is not second only to MK (unless your stage list was also atrocious like green greens Pipes etc. There he might be able to pull it off lol)


Having a LGL or a ground time rule or a scrooging rule... these rules are not born through necessity to salvage the game. There is no "the edge is inherently broken for everyone, so we need this" or "going under the stage with Ganon is too powerful, ban it."


But the game DOES need MK to be nerfed. MK DOES need a limit on the edge, a limit for flying under Smashville, a limit for doping around being a ******. Something to hold him back. That's the difference. Unless you think we should get rid of these changes and have a free game, but MK dominates that version of Brawl. No one wants to play a game where MK can grab the edge an unfathomable amount, but how many people would still play the game if DK had no LGL? How many people would still play if there was no scrooging rule on the rest of the cast, etc? Limiting MK specifically is more productive and the better decision to make than letting him go free, AND it's better than targeting the entire cast when the entire cast is not the problem. What's the point of using widespread universal rules that target even characters that can't abuse a strategy or aspect of the game that we deem broken, and then ignoring the characters that do? MK a problem on the edge, so we need a limit on Captain Falcon too. Or we're just using these universal changes to mask the fact that yeah we don't need half this **** on 90% of the cast, but just to be safe let's restrict the freedom of other characters too to keep MK down (while ignoring making anything MK specific because admitting that MK warrants attention is a big no no people).

So why this unnecessary masking then? Why not say directly that those rules are only for Metaknight? Why is there still a 50 LGL after MK has been banned?

It doesn't make sense.

 

[WindMajor]

I was working on that, but then I forgot.

 

[k9.]

Really we don't need any explanations on why we should have mk ban or not, you guys all heard/ watched apex right?

We all know that Meta Knight is beatable thats all WE need to go into a match with a confidence level of over 9000.

If we expect to beat japan when they come back then we would need Mk legal for sure.

So in reality MK should not be banned.LETS DO IT USA!!

 

[DMG]

So why this unnecessary masking then? Why not say directly that those rules are only for Metaknight? Why is there still a 50 LGL after MK has been banned?

It doesn't make sense.

You honestly expect people to make sense when it comes to this game? Lol.

Either way, it's true. You have people (some with power) that advocate these changes be universal to avoid the "Well isn't this basically for MK" question. Even if it makes no sense to slap a universal LGL or scrooging or blah blah rule on, if it avoids any discussion or thought on MK then it serves their needs. The same as you have people that want to pile on changes specifically against MK to serve their interests in getting him banned/keeping him banned.

 

[Orion*]

Alpha Zealot is a huge huge tool

i laughed way to hard at that XD

They spend so much time not in tourney that they have a lot of time to theorycraft.

I went to my first Brawl tourney on the Jan. 14th, so MK was banned. While I hadn't had experience fighting competitive MKs, it was refreshing seeing all the variety I saw at this particular tourney. I got whooped by Pits, Diddy Kongs, Warios, Ice Climbers, everything really. So if the MK ban inspires more variety in who chooses characters, I'm all for it.

homie. like... you live in a region where this wouldnt even be like a significant problem though.

 

[Cassio]

Either way, it's true. You have people (some with power) that advocate these changes be universal to avoid the "Well isn't this basically for MK" question. Even if it makes no sense to slap a universal LGL or scrooging or blah blah rule on, if it avoids any discussion or thought on MK then it serves their needs. The same as you have people that want to pile on changes specifically against MK to serve their interests in getting him banned/keeping him banned.

This was a really sad statement. Thats like saying pro-banners want to add BS stages just to ban MK. Its dumb to assume what people intentions or beliefs are, even worse as a blanket statement. There are plenty of people who want these changes even without MK and are even pro-ban.

 

[Strong Badam]

LGL is indeed stupid on principle. It's like saying "Play to win, but not too much".

 

[Thino]

You honestly expect people to make sense when it comes to this game? Lol.

Either way, it's true. You have people (some with power) that advocate these changes be universal to avoid the "Well isn't this basically for MK" question. Even if it makes no sense to slap a universal LGL or scrooging or blah blah rule on, if it avoids any discussion or thought on MK then it serves their needs. The same as you have people that want to pile on changes specifically against MK to serve their interests in getting him banned/keeping him banned.

I kinda suspected that, but I didn't know it was that bad

 

[fkacyan]

LGLs are stupid on principle though. It'd be like if you could only jump back x amount of times in a more traditional fighting game.

In some games you actually take more damage for being a ***** liekt hat.

 

[Luco]

LGLs were what made me scared to get hit off the stage, especially as Lucas/Ness...

 

[Orion*]

In some games you actually take more damage for being a ***** liekt hat.

this LMAOOOO

 

[DMG]

This was a really sad statement. Thats like saying pro-banners want to add BS stages just to ban MK. Its dumb to assume what people intentions or beliefs are, even worse as a blanket statement. There are plenty of people who want these changes even without MK and are even pro-ban.

Did I say everyone, or a large majority of people are like that? No. But if we're being honest, those people exist.

As far as stages go, no I don't think anyone (reasonable/respectable/that has a voice) believed in legalizing stuff like Green Greens or Hanenbow as an attempt to ban him. That would be a poorly thought out way to put pressure on the character because even forgetting that the stages have their own problems and immense unpopularity, we could simply revert back and ban the stages and the situation would be the same (except people calling you stupid for legalizing stages like that). Sure MK is gay on Corneria, but half of that is Corneria to begin with. Etc

LGL is indeed stupid on principle. It's like saying "Play to win, but not too much".

Most of the proposed rule changes are like that though. Ground time rule, scrooging rule, etc. The intention is good, but the rules themselves are a mess. Time runs out and I have more time in the air than the other guy I lose? OH that was supposed to be something to stop planking/other ****, but now I lose with other characters while camping/have to actively monitor my time in the air even if I'm in the air for clearly non broken/stalling reasons.


That's a reason you have many people disagree with using rules and limits like that, because the rules themselves are questionable to them. If keeping a character in the game entails sloppy/bad/etc rules to follow, maybe it's not worth it.

I kinda suspected that, but I didn't know it was that bad

It's not "HOLY **** EVERYONE IS INSANE!" lol calm down people. Just saying that not everyone comes to the table level headed and rational.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

You're right about it not being the stages fault. But guess what, it's not MK's fault either. It's not his fault so many characters suck on some stages. It's our fault for keeping them on in the first place. I mean really, why do we have over 10 stages in Brawl, most of which give advantages, then only 6 stages in Melee, most of which are pretty damn equal?

6 stages depends on the area, I've seen Mute City still legal in some places, Congo Jungle, Cruise and Brinstar.

It's not just FD, BF, YS, FoD, DL, with PS as a CP everywhere except maybe Europe who is super conservative in Melee.

~

I could see taking off stages are trying him out maybe, but I still think the character went over what the community was willing to deal with.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

hey mk players if you aren't winning every match by doing nothing, then you need to GET BETTER and stop whining that you can't win every set with your broken**** character, obviously you are playing a broken character and just aren't doing it right

 

[X1Type1]

I am curious to see how opinions on Meta Knight and the Meta Knight ban have changed since/because of Apex.

My general topic ideas/questions are:

1. Does the fact that an Olimar outplaced all the USA MKs/players change anyones feeling about MKs dominance? May his dominance and banworthiness be based around an under evolved metagame as a whole?

2. Do the general results of the top 8/top 16 at Apex show a strong viability of characters other then MK. Such as snake, falco, olimar, ic, rob, etc?

3. From other posts I have read, it is my understanding that Japan does not think that MK is banworthy (again this is only heresay to me). I was curious if anyone does know the Japanese players thoughts on MK. I ask because it was my understanding that in the past Japans beliefs about MK were overlooked since our MKs outclasses there's. From Apex results, this does not seem to be the case.

4. Do players still feel so overwhelmingly convinced that MK should be banned now that Apex is over?

@zmx and like minded individuals who posted about this topic/idea/discussion before me- thanks for helping influence this topic discussion.

Japan wins Brawl, Europe win Melee, Canada wins 64 and USA wins AllBrawl... LOL but seriously, theres a reason we got outplayed by Japan. Japan doesnt play for money normally. What drives them isnt material, its the will to win. They want to be the best and so they practice every matchup and they think about every move they make. They play smart. They are relaxed when they play and the phrase momentum, doesnt exist with them. For instance when Nario lost a stock, he would lose focus, as most USA smashers do. When Otori screws up, he dont let it affect his gameplay, and niether do any other of the japaneese. They dont think about it at all, they just keep a level head. Also they never blame a MU or a stage for losing. They blame thermselves and then look to improve, not rely on a counterpick. Their rulesets are very different. Like I said they don't have counterpicks, they only play Smashville, FD and Battlefeild. Also dont have a ledge grab limit, they have a minimum ground time rule in effect so u can just fly around and plank. I'm pretty sure theres some kind of rule with chaingrabbing but im not entirely sure how it works. In teams I'll bet in teams that Omnigay thing is banned too. Basically, our rulesets were designed to limit mk, while japans focuses on balancing the game so that the outcome resting soley on the skill of the players. It shudnt be whats in the tv that depicts the outcome, it shud be the one behind the tv.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

hey mk players if you aren't winning every match by doing nothing, then you need to GET BETTER and stop whining that you can't win every set with your broken**** character, obviously you are playing a broken character and just aren't doing it right

And here I thought you were one of the sensible ones.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Luco]

Japan wins Brawl, Europe win Melee, Canada wins 64 and USA wins AllBrawl... LOL but seriously, theres a reason we got outplayed by Japan. Japan doesnt play for money normally. What drives them isnt material, its the will to win. They want to be the best and so they practice every matchup and they think about every move they make.

This is me in many respects. My dream is definitely to be the best rather than win however much in cash. When I go to tournaments, I don't think of the money as something to be put in a pot, it's more like a fee to me. That is to say, I don't care if I get it back, the pleasure of it all is just being there for the day.

But yeah, I'm definitely driven by the thought of winning. Playing Brawl with so many other people makes my day, I love tournaments! And i'm adaptable, too, which helpes me out a lot. :D

 

[Steam]

And here I thought you were one of the sensible ones.

Smooth Criminal

He's just reversing the logic of quite a few people... Lol

 

[SFA Smiley]

Why the hell are we trying to ban MK? Let's ban all the unviable characters.

My ruleset would have MK only and all stages legal

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

And here I thought you were one of the sensible ones.

Smooth Criminal

etc

^ I agree let's ban all characters BUT MK so these stupid scrubs can't play their terrible characters it isn't our fault you aren't as smart as us to pick MK I mean the game starts at the character slect screen omg