Q&A "Everyone Look At Me!" The Marth Video Critique Thread.

[Dr Peepee]

PP

Another thing to consider to add to your game vs peach is to bait her when edgeguarding. Good examples of this can be found here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W9_FpxE6eY0 (0:30, 2:00, 2:58-3:07)
and here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q5LWuV1YcMY (2:10-2:14)

(Note, not all of the followps that armada did were necessarily the best options in these vids, but you get the point; full jump to bait her so you can followup with an utilt/f(b,n,u,d)air, grab/whatever)

I find that just keeping peach off her balance/ in the air will eventually get you the kill with an utilt/air or you can just get her offstage and prepare for some tedious+tactical edgeguarding to get the kill.

Also, try to incorporate powershielding some of those turnips as a good mixup; it could help get you out of some tight spots (i.e ifyou're cornered at the edge and she's just going to turnip spam you), and if nothing else, it'll at least annoy her enough to want to approach.

FH'ing.....well I did it when she was directly high above me, but I suppose it works pretty well too for side edgeguarding....especially with aerial manipulation. Yeah cool thanks.

Oh and yeah this character CAN powershield well haha I forgot. I certainly will have to work on that turnip game.

 

[Levingy]

I'm curious at how all marth's throws are combo-able against peach's different DI:s on different percents. I have always thought that if peach DI:s away and down, then no matter what throw you use, you can't straight combo her from there. I have thought, that peach always can do something, and that it's a mindgame after that. Could someone list the percents, throws and combo moves after the throw when peach DI:s down and away?

 

[Deleted member]

edit:

IB/Tai

do y'all have any critique on my marth? you guys played it and saw it the most out of everyone the whole weekend(of APEX that is).

I watched you play quite a bit sunday despite only playing you for one marth ditto.

You need to be more aggressive, particularly with dtilt > iasa frames. Also use a lot more upthrow.

when you attack air to ground and your opponent ruins your spacing with walk/run in shield or WD or something you can do more l cancel into dash or sidestep. I'd start with aerial > dash against fox sheik falcon because they can grab your landing lag the easiest and fox in particular doesn't care about spot dodges cause he can shine you out of it on a whiffed grab and that leads to a grab anyway. don't land on the ground in a nair vs fox ever. just don't do it. don't even use nair against sheik at all. against slower characters that screw up your landing spacing try l canceling directly into a spot dodge and work from there.

with your aggression, spend more time trying to work your opponent into a bad situation. marth can basically dial-a-combo at any moment but if you combo them to 80 and hit them up high you haven't really helped your position. rather, use his sword and try to carry them to the edge of the stage where you can leverage a positional advantage so your range has more value. once your marth can dominate an invisible yet understood portion of the stage, he becomes much more threatening. if you were watching me play tai with zelda for example, most of the advantage i got against him with zelda was because the about half of the things he was doing weren't threatening.

just because you're swinging your sword at your opponent doesn't make you a threat. it's not like fox where feet = victory and shield pressure = hitting their shield, and you probably see the game at least mostly through a fox-tinted lens from playing him so long. instead you want to actively screw people by making them unable to make it back to the stage because there's a marth in the way and his dair apparently hits everywhere. marth's pressure game comes from his ability to eliminate options based on character position and pinning/trapping them into hopeless positions. it's most obvious with things like marth vs fox on FD but you can replicate that play style for most "regular" match-ups (basically neutral stages and not against jigglypuff) and that's how you want to play.

a lot of newer marths like to use dash attack. it's not that good. use it sparingly at best.

once you start building more natural defenses into your gameplay and make your marth more threatening you can get away with much more aggression and you'll close out kills much faster. marth is a stupid, stupid dangerous character when played correctly but he's a mid-high tier at best when you don't know what you're doing and misplaying him in any way. using upthrow more than your other throws will help your ability to trap/kill opponents by a LOT because basically being above marth is a horrible position in a very general way and upthrow is the best way to make it happen. the more you up throw > obvious combo, the harder of a positional advantage you'll be able to leverage over and over again which leads to free wins. also feel free to use the tried and true tactic of "grab them when they land" which is abusable not only by marth, but basically any character with a legit grab in all 3 smash games.

not all of this stuff applies to you directly but it's all in some way applicable to the idea that you should be more aggressive. like you don't use dash attack much from what i can tell but i'm trying to convey the idea in a thorough manner so you'll get a feel for what i'm talking about.

also don't kill yourself twice per match like a ******/me.

 

[Beat!]

Hey, PP, have you considered throwing immediately out of grab every once in a while instead of pummeling, attempting to catch Armada off guard with the DI? Your grab followups are really good (I'm definitely going to study that tech chasing of yours), and guaranteed damage is always nice, but if you get a grab by the ledge, you can sometimes get that occasional d/fthrow-tipper fsmash kill on like, 40-50%. I know M2K got it on Armada on game 5 of Apex LFs.

Just food for thought.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Hey, PP, have you considered throwing immediately out of grab every once in a while instead of pummeling, attempting to catch Armada off guard with the DI? Your grab followups are really good (I'm definitely going to study that tech chasing of yours), and guaranteed damage is always nice, but if you get a grab by the ledge, you can sometimes get that occasional d/fthrow-tipper fsmash kill on like, 40-50%. I know M2K got it on Armada on game 5 of Apex LFs.

Just food for thought.

Yeah you're right, and I've been meaning to figure out how to trick people into falling for that some. Pummeling isn't quite as intimidating if I do it every time haha.

Thanks for the advice. =)

 

[Beat!]

Np, just glad I could help =p

 

[.Chipmunk.]

Yeah you're right, and I've been meaning to figure out how to trick people into falling for that some. Pummeling isn't quite as intimidating if I do it every time haha.

Thanks for the advice. =)

Neither is fthrow 85% of the time Sometimes you have to fthrow, walk forward fsmash or even fthrow wd forward fsmash. Don't go for the fsmash right away. Unless the DI is absolutely horrific.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Neither is fthrow 85% of the time Sometimes you have to fthrow, walk forward fsmash or even fthrow wd forward fsmash. Don't go for the fsmash right away. Unless the DI is absolutely horrific.

I Dthrow when they're by the edge and my back is to the edge, and I guess he can react to Dthrow so he always DIs the Dthrow since it's kinda slow. At least Fthrow can set up tech chases or allows Peach to fall more(assuming DI away) with lower end lag for Marth.

Where am I wrong with this?

I don't even know when I can get Fthrow WD Fsmash or Fthrow walk Fsmash though(on DI down and away obviously)....

 

[stelzig]

You think dthrow is that slow? I sometimes dthrow spacies in the middle of chaingrabbing because they often don't react fast enough to tech it. I suppose they would be teching it if they were looking out for the dthrow, but normally you don't exactly know when you're going to get thrown and there isn't exactly much they can do against the other throws.

I know armadas reaction time is pretty good though, and I never checked frames on the dthrow or anything, but I was under the impression that it was fast enough so that people couldn't just react to mixed up dthrow/fthrow.

 

[Dr Peepee]

I feel like I can Dthrow spacies before they can react but not Peach.

Just a feeling but I'm really not sure if it's true or not.

 

[stelzig]

I would think you would have more time to tech than you would have to DI.

 

[Dr Peepee]

It could have something to do with spacies not being able to adjust going from offense or their big movement game to total defense aka survival inputs unlike Peach since she's slower and more methodical of a character. Spacie DI also matters less so maybe I discount that and take it as them not DI'ing more than I should....

I dunno I guess I'll wait for someone with frame knowledge to let me know where I messed up lol.

 

[Archangel]

I think that is a factor. Peach at the highest level is alot like a toad in a pond waiting for flies to snag. Fox/Falco...well they have much more of a go get-em approach. Sometimes considering the amount of button inputs they have It is understandable. In fact most spacies might be to busy thinking of the next 5 or 6 buttons they have to press and positioning there hands to do them to react once they are grabbed and tossed suddenly.

Peach on the other hand while thinking a few moves ahead doesn't have the same amount of worry. In fact when it comes to the Marth MU they are usually just looking and waiting for a chance to get inside so they have plenty of time to react in comparison. At least that is my thought anyway.

Also, Welcome back Everyone

 

[Mahie]

Doesn't it have to do with character weight affecting the animation speed?

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Peach is heavier than fox/falco, so that could factor in

 

[Dr Peepee]

See that's what I was ACTUALLY thinking(weight) but I thought it'd be weird to suggest Peach weighed more lol.

I know weight affects throw speed so that's probably the biggest part of it.

Thanks sveet. =)

 

[Mahie]

Yeah that's the tricky part with Peach/Samus, they're floaty so you don't think of them as 'heavy'.

 

[Niko45]

Yea I sorta always knew vaguely that Peach was heavier than one would think. Conversely though I think Samus is actually quite light (just watched silent wolf KO Plup at 91% with a fox up smash on battlefield).

Anyone got a link to a a chart/list of character weights?

Also yea I agree about fthrow just being better in general. Obviously near or off stage I opt for dthrow but if I'm tech chasing in the middle of the stage against any character fthrow seems to be the best choice universally to me (unless you're specifically looking for that dthrow missed tech thing on spacies).

 

[Dr Peepee]

I know you can get Dthrow Fsmash in Marth dittos but I'm not sure if that can work on Peach at certain percents or not....

That's my only other contribution I can make on that topic haha.

 

[Niko45]

You can definitely dthrow fsmash Peach on DI in, which I assume you're talking about cause it's the same for Marth dittos as well.

 

[Mahie]

Is Bthrow actually useful? I've seen a few instances of Marths using it at higher %, but is it actually legit or do you need the opponent to mess up the DI?
I've never used it much but whenever I try I can't seem to combo it into anything.

 

[Niko45]

Bthrow is AMAZING in a lot of situations. HBK vs Ice was textbook bthrow use.

EDIT: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qhi-uQjRqc0#t=10m01s

Notice how even with Sheik, a mid-weight with percent in the 90s is still forced into a platform tech chase on FoD, very low platforms in general. This works on DI in or no DI (since fthrow is concerning these are very likely DIs).

Also the fthrow fsmash at the very end of the match is a direct result of the conditioning with bthrow. Ice was anticipating bthrow and DI'd behind Marth, setting up that fthrow fsmash which sealed the game.

There are also other examples of him using bthrow to sort of loft sheik into the air at higher %. Basically at higher % bthrow can replace uthrow as the move that lofts the opponent into the air in hopes of sniping their DJ or just maintaining air control with them above you. Uthrow at super high % will give some characters so much height that they sort of aren't trapped anymore and have too many options for escaping you.

 

[Mahie]

Bthrow is AMAZING in a lot of situations. HBK vs Ice was textbook bthrow use.

Aight thanks. I'll look more into that. Does anything come to mind so you can give an example maybe?

 

[Dr Peepee]

I think Bthrow can combo into Bair on Peach at some 100%+ on DI in I think....

Bthrow can also lead to Fsmash or up-B on spacies at some 100%+ if they DI in.

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

Yea I sorta always knew vaguely that Peach was heavier than one would think. Conversely though I think Samus is actually quite light (just watched silent wolf KO Plup at 91% with a fox up smash on battlefield).

You're confusing weight and fall speed Niko. Peach and Samus will die off the top rather early compared to say, Fox, but will live much longer off the side.

From M2K:
--- 117 --- (1) Bowser
--- 114 --- (2) DK
--- 110 --- (3) Samus
--- 109 --- (4) Ganondorf
--- 108 --- (5) Yoshi
--- 104 --- (6-7) Captain Falcon / Link
--- 100 --- (8-10) Dr. Mario / Luigi / Mario
--- 94 --- (11) Ness
--- 90 --- (12-14) Peach / Sheik / Zelda
--- 88 --- (15) Ice Climbers
--- 87 --- (16) Marth
--- 85 --- (17-19) Mewtwo / Roy / Young Link
--- 80 --- (20-21) Falco / Pikachu
--- 75 --- (22) Fox
--- 70 --- (23) Kirby
--- 60 --- (24-25) Jigglypuff / Mr. Game & Watch
--- 55 --- (26) Pichu

 

[Mahie]

We really should start making a list of the guaranteed stuff Marth has.

 

[Niko45]

Nothing is guaranteed with bthrow, though, make no mistake about that. At its core it just gives you tech chase and "put them above you" situations at % where other throws won't give you anything at all (still really important to take advantage of).

And the fsmash on FFers on DI in or no DI is nice to have (since something like fthrow which is often more obvious anyway NEEDS strictly DI in to combo to fsmash). The % for bthrow fsmash on spacies is very high though I believe (much higher than 100% but I don't know for sure).

 

[Mahie]

Yeah, I figured that out, so far I used it to put Peach in the air when I felt like Uthrow was gonna be too much, yet not enough to kill. Or to force techs on platforms/techs near the edge (So either tech towards the stage => Regrab or any other option => Fsmash or something.), on say, Falcon in a corner of YS.

I guess all those times M2K pulled off a Bthrow > Fsmash it wasn't an actual combo.

Edit : Nevermind that last sentence, now you've edited and that's one of the things I wanted to make sure of. Thanks.

 

[Archangel]

You're confusing weight and fall speed Niko. Peach and Samus will die off the top rather early compared to say, Fox, but will live much longer off the side.

From M2K:
--- 117 --- (1) Bowser
--- 114 --- (2) DK
--- 110 --- (3) Samus
--- 109 --- (4) Ganondorf
--- 108 --- (5) Yoshi
--- 104 --- (6-7) Captain Falcon / Link
--- 100 --- (8-10) Dr. Mario / Luigi / Mario
--- 94 --- (11) Ness
--- 90 --- (12-14) Peach / Sheik / Zelda
--- 88 --- (15) Ice Climbers
--- 87 --- (16) Marth
--- 85 --- (17-19) Mewtwo / Roy / Young Link
--- 80 --- (20-21) Falco / Pikachu
--- 75 --- (22) Fox
--- 70 --- (23) Kirby
--- 60 --- (24-25) Jigglypuff / Mr. Game & Watch
--- 55 --- (26) Pichu

Do you have the list of fall speed too?

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

brb pulling something out of my ***.......




[collapse=fall speed list]
1) Falco
2) Captain Falcon
3) Fox***
4-5) Roy > DK
6) Marth
7-9) Sheik > Link = Young Link
10) Ganondorf
11) Yoshi
12-14) Bowser > Pichu = Pikachu
15) Ness
16-18) Dr. Mario = Mario = Mr. Game and Watch
19-21) Ice Climbers > Kirby > Luigi
22-23) Mewtwo > Peach
24-25) Samus > Zelda
26) Jigglypuff[/collapse]

 

[ShroudedOne]

Is that acceleration, or max speed? Probably the latter, just making sure.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

max speed. greater than sign signifies faster acceleration to max speed.

 

[PolishSmash]

Hey guys I would like to get some help on my matchup versus Peach. I really struggle killing her and in the beginning I was winning my matches (17:25) but then I started losing like every game (56:00) I also wanted to ask: Does her fair outprioritize my nair? Because I remember approaching in the air with my nair, it comes out and then she just fairs it like nothing. And one time her dash attack went through my lightshield, like what's up with that? Oh and I was also trying to Shuffle during our matches because I am just starting to learn how to. Thank you :D

http://www.twitch.tv/polishsmash/b/305949910
Skip to 56:00 that's when I start losing

Ps. I hate it when he just dodges behind me and Down Smashes. How do I compensate for that?

 

[.Chipmunk.]

Hey Polak, that's just your main channel. Did you mean http://www.twitch.tv/polishsmash/b/305949910 ?

 

[Juno McGrath]

Bthrow to turn around side B to Uptilt is dat swagg on puff/peach/samoose

if they dont you know, DI lolololol

 

[Fregadero]

I'm still pretty new and I wasn't feeling great so I was missing a decent amount of techs I normally wouldn't

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IJ8FIKdTQT0

Its all against fox, any comments/tips/advice is welcome.

 

[PolishSmash]

Hey Polak, that's just your main channel. Did you mean http://www.twitch.tv/polishsmash/b/305949910 ?

Oh yes yes lol Sorry about that. Thanks for pointing it out.

 

[Niko45]

PP, how do you manage not to get shield stabbed by Peach dsmash so much? Is it lightshielding? I can't really tell.

 

[Beat!]

Shield DI, I think.

 

[Metal Reeper]

PP, how do you manage not to get shield stabbed by Peach dsmash so much? Is it lightshielding? I can't really tell.

You have to shield DI away. Only like....M2K PP and Mango do it.
You can still get hit but....shield DI away works.
He isn't lightshielding.