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Q&A Doc General Discussion: Ask and ye shall receive ft. otg and Shroomed!

KAOSTAR

the Ascended One
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The Wash: Lake City
Even tho luigi has commit time based on jumps and airdodges and cool down

what about changing the anlge of the control stick. Cant that make it so that he can WD a shorter distance and mess up your spacing?
 

Shroomed

Smash Master
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kaostar's rite, he doesn't have to WD hella far each time

And you only combod luigi if his A button wasn't working
Max consecutive hits on luigi=2 imo
 

St. Viers

Smash Champion
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^^regardless of angle, he still has the same amount of lag from WDing. Lets say you stay *inside* his max range to throw off his WD to approach. If he shortens his WD, you can either reset (by going back out) or if you're close enough, punishing the WD.

Also, I think you're missing dogy's point--after you get the the "flipped animation" that opponents get when hit w/ the up-air, it becomes possible to combo luigi.
 

Dogysamich

The Designated Hype Man!
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Even tho luigi has commit time based on jumps and airdodges and cool down

what about changing the anlge of the control stick. Cant that make it so that he can WD a shorter distance and mess up your spacing?
If he wants to start shortening his wavedash, im just going to move move.

That's not messing up my spacing, that's messing up his. What he's trying to do at that point is mess up my active defense. Realistically, if that were the case, i'd start doing retreating SHFF and SH pills. Let him take all the time he wants to get to me, he'll take longer if he wants to jump over them.

kaostar's rite, he doesn't have to WD hella far each time

And you only combod luigi if his A button wasn't working
Max consecutive hits on luigi=2 imo
Again, it's the same as comboing alot of other characters, the only difference is that when you combo luigi at the wrong percent and he hits you back, he turns it into his combo. That's the same as people saying jiggs cant be comboed because when you do it wrong you get rested.

Think about it.
You try to combo samus at the wrong percent, you get n.air'd/up+b'd.
You try to combo Peach at the wrong percent, you get n.air'd/up+b'd.
You try to combo marth at the wrong percent you get f.air'd/countered/up'd.

It's not like luigi is special or anything, it's just his response is one that leads to his own combos.
 

metashinryu

Smash Ace
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i love to uair luigi to the infinity and beyond(with falcon)

i know this is doc boards but,have you tried grab fthrow-wavedash-shinryuken with luigi? is hella fun XD

also i have some problems edgeguarding marth(with doc) any suggestions?
 

Dogysamich

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Wall of text time, lol
scroll to bottom for cliffnotes
First and foremost, understand marth can defend himself on recovery (you probably know this which is why you're asking).

Now, understand that even on recovery, marth still outranges doc (technically speaking he doesnt, but I'm talking pills at that point, that's some later-on-down-the-road-kinda-stuff).This is important because that means Doc has to hit clean, there really wont be any trading involved.

When marth recovers, doc his has to be weary of getting f.aired (or really, any aerial, neutral b, counter; there's alot marth can do). But the thing is, he's only got one shot. There's enough lag that if he throws something out there and you're in the area, he's done.

With that being said, edgeguarding marth comes down to being outside of his range and going in either
A) After he tries to stop you and misses
or
B) If you think he's not going to try to stop you at all

You're not going to just casually float out there and b.air him unless you know for a fact he's not going to swing (And if you find a marth like that, please let me know. I would love to go do the superman edgeguard to him a few times for kicks.)

You have to do stuff like wavedash off, capestall out of his zone, ledgedrop a b.air, etc. He's not completely defenseless on recovery (and he's really not in TOO bad of a spot as long as he stays above stage level.

Once he goes below stage level, you're looking to edgehog. Dont try to fight him, just edgehog. If he's trying to recover low (read: low from real far otu), then instead of trying to down and b.air, just rain pills on him. 2 or 3, depending on how fast you got to the ledge, and then get on the edge. Make him up+b past you, punish from there.

Caping marth is hard. It's hard for 2 reasons.

1) he has to miss a sweetspot
2) YOU HAVE TO STAND A GOOD DISTANCE AWAY FROM THE LEDGE.

The problem with this is that it's kinda hard to get as far back as you need to in a timely manner to stay out of up+b's range, but close enough to cape.

.....*dogy gets more ideas*. I got some **** i'll write down and try sometime. XD

Last, if marth's recovering high, FOR THE LOVE OF GOD STAY IN FRONT OF HIM. Like, you dont want to overexert yourself to get him at this point (you MUST be in front of him, you CANT be below him), but for the love of god you've got to stay in front of him or get d.aired. That kinda thing can be devistating.

**
Now, with all that said, know that there are a few things to look for.

1) Look for marth to side-B too close to the stage.
- If you can call a side-b, hang out in the area and b.air him afterwards. You've got enough time.
-Same thing applies to any aerial

2) Just like basically every other character in the game, he's scared of getting b.aired. -but he can defend himself well-
- with that being said, if you can come up with ways to fake him and he gets scared, he's more likely to jump at you and f.air than drop down out of your range. It's safer for him to try to swat you away.
- And because people have put up with my walls of text for so long, here goes 2 random Dogy tips for... who knows how long (im going to keep typing this paragraph to deter people from reading lol. I a bad person). Both for edgeguarding. (for anybody who keeps up with my termonology, these are "smart tricks" (meaning your opponent actually has to be intelligent for it to work)) First one is if you ever want to entice somebody to jump (usually in a spot to waste a double jump), wavedash in place. Works if they're falling back to the stage, recovering, etc etc. Reason this works is because doc makes a sound every single solitary time he jumps, regardless of what he actually does. He even goes into the same jump startup for anybody who's actually looking at him. So if somebody is smart enough to know that "WAH" = jump, they're going to be more inclined to jump away than if you just stood there and waited for them. In all actuality, all you're doing is standing there waiting for them.
-Next thing is spinning on the stage. Alot of people understand that if you're back is to them, you can b.air them. Alot of people ASSUME that if you're facing them, you're going to throw pills at them or cape (or any other edgeguard if you do crazy stuff). Look at it like this, if your back is to them, they better go low (or high) or else they're going to get b.aired. They also should hurry up because you get bored and decide to take the ledge. If you're facing them, they better not go low unless they want to get rained on by pills. You start spinning on the ledge, and who knows what the f**k you really want to do? You'd be surprised that some people will jump if you turn around.

But yeah, another thing to keep in mind is what your opponents responses are to your edgeguarding options. It's good to know if your opponent will actually try to airdodge or not. If they will try it, you can catch some of those people by just simply standing there with your back turned. Same thing with stuff like counter (for marth specifically). If you know they'll try something like that, know that sometimes you just have to throw a pill out there and go take the ledge.

__________________________

CLIFFNOTES VERSION: DONT BE SO BLATENTLY F***ING OBVIOUS WHEN YOU JUMP OUT THERE OR YOU'RE GETTING BATTED AWAY.
 

Rykard

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hey so ive been wondering about what to do against characters that are difficult to shield grab (ex: fox falco falcon) and what i should be doing instead. the problem isnt that im getting shined when i grab or anything, its just that they are spacing out of Docs grab range. i know that the up b cancel and upsmash out of sheild have more range than his grab but i feel like they are too slow to use effectively in that kind of pressured situation. so like maybe i should just roll and the problem will be solved? i want a second opinion thats all. thank you!
 

Christopher Rodriguez

The illest Project M Bowser
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^^^

I know exactly what your talking about.

sadly, I just run away and pill though. doesn't seem like you can do much else when your being pressured horrendously (imo). there are just those certain players who run into grabs, and the ones that never do.
 

Desh

Smash Ace
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CanadiaVille
eh, my solution to marth edge gaurding -
bair with frames if he tries to swat me off the edge,
other wise, take the edge and just keep reseting my frames so i can hog the *****. =/
ooorr, light sheild edge hog if he goes low and i think hes going to sweet spot, it does work with doc.
if hes not going to sweet spot then hes a char that you can edge gaurd without having to go off the stage.
ftilt + cape.
=/ .

WOOPS,
to answer yer question about sheild pressure,
dont go in your sheild vs falco. FIRST OFF XP.
never ever. well, not never ever, cuz it happens, but just dont try to sheild grab vs a compitent one.
just buffer roll away from it, or wd oos away, or something, but dont try to fight back in the sheild vs spacies,
falcon is a different story.
then you can like, nair oos, grab, lots of things. just be careful >_>

but sheild vs spacies (falco especialy = bad)
 

HomeMadeWaffles

Smash Lord
Joined
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Union City, CA
but sheild vs spacies (falco especialy = bad)
its not the greatest thing to do, but ur gonna end up ur sheild regardless

most falcos just pillar like there is no tommorrow

just move ur sheild up to mess up the l-cancel, u could sheild grab if they mess up

be aware if they move back while they pillar ur sheild(that mango stuff, avioding the sheild grab)

is it best not to fight the sheild pressure

wavedash out of sheild/roll and run away is legit hahahaha

if ur at low percents and feel too overwhelmed just up-b hahahahaha

idk lol
 

Dogysamich

The Designated Hype Man!
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Well, I look at it like this.

vs Fox and Falco, like some people said, you want to try avoiding going into shield. Mainly because melee is dumb by allowing characters to have 1 frame attacks, so there's nothing you can do about it (like you already know). If you happen to get caught in shield vs them; you basically have to start doing all sorts of stuff to try to get out. Rolling, lightshielding (or shieldtoggling to lightshield), up+b OoS, wavedash OoS, spotdoding, shieldangling, etc. You really just have to find what works. Out of all of those choices, the only one that really cant be called and punished is lightshielding. With all that said, it makes sense to understand that you actually dont to challenge fox and falco's ability to keep presure on you, but challenge their ability to get in in the first place.

vs Falcon, shieldgrabbing him really depends on his bad spacing (or shield DIing a raptor boost. I was messin around and I swear that works, I just need to look into more stuff) The problem with shieldgrabbing him is really that he moves afterwards (or covers the gap with a gentlemen). The thing to keep in mind about falcon is that if his action after hitting your shield is to move (which it usually will be because he doesnt WANT to get grabbed by you), you have and should move out of shield too. It makes sense, but melee goes so fast that stuff like that gets kinda lost in translation. Moving out of shield doesnt specifically mean wavedashing out (and for the love of god it doesnt really mean rolling out), you can jump out or jump out with an aerial. If you think he's going to do something like n.air your shield, then run out and DD, you can just jump out with a pill to make him move from his DD. etc etc.
 

St. Viers

Smash Champion
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I can't stress this enough, vs fox and falco, learn to dash dance purposefully. You can jump, shield at any point during it, except directly at the turn aorund, you can cape out of it, and you can grab them when they d-air where you aren't.

It doesn't matter how good the fox/falco is after you've grabbed them--they're still gonna take a beating if you don't mess up and can either combo out of the throw, or techchase (I can't combo worth ****). Trust me on this one guys, do it XD
 

Dogysamich

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yeah, that's one thing i hate about DDing, how there's specific points when you cant do stuff.

"But melee has the most freedom of movement in any fighting game." *Rolls eyes and laughs hysterically.*

Oh dont mind me, im just taking a behind-closed-doors potshot at some arguments people try make for melee.
 

Dogysamich

The Designated Hype Man!
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in all of my years of smash, i've never heard of that. Not even the rumor. That would be pretty useful though for OoS.

___

EDIT

This just in, 18s finally got a ****ing clue. about matchups

Eighteen spikes:http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p281/MLdoubleE/No%20Brand%202009/Pic045.jpg
Eighteen spikes: this may force me to edit my hardest matchup list
Eighteen spikes: apparently sheik and i get along pretty well

That pic?


So um, i think he's teamin with sheik from now on. XD
 

Dogysamich

The Designated Hype Man!
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doublejoint

Smash Cadet
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It's the smaller (or bigger depending on how you look at it), but it still goes forward.
what?

apparently whatever they do with the upb changed the btt wr from 13.40 to 13.35; so uh

........ i don't know; i searched the forum this supposedly came from and its not mentioned

.05s is an extremely minuscule height difference
 

Shadow Huan

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^^oh well, looks like we'll have to meet at a MM then.
See if my "get ***** by KDJ repeatedly" training is paying off...
Yeah... find me at MM... though if you're playing KDJ a lot then don't expect too much outta me. :p

Nah JK I give it my all when I play... most of the time. When I'm not sandbagging...:laugh:
 

otg

Smash Master
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On my 5th 4 Loko and still ****** you.
Ok just a few notes after reviewing the **** I missed.

Against Spacies, I've started Nairing OoS instead of trying to for shield grabs. If they **** up huge, and you see a SG, go for it, but Nair/bair oos seems a lil safer. Also, against Falcon, I'm pretty sure you can beat his raptor boost with just about anything, that move has like 0 priority. I know I've grabbed him out of it (maybe not with Doc though, can't remember), jabbed him out of it, Fsmashed him out of it, pretty much ****ing anything if you space it right. Also, if you do get hit by it, you can CC it at relatively low percents.
 

Dogysamich

The Designated Hype Man!
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n.airing out of shield, if done frameperfect, is as fast as grabbing. Plus you get the benefit of moving. So yeah that's fine.

Falcon's raptor boost, yeah that makes sense seeing as you have to be in the range of the... "triggerbox?" (i have no clue what those things are called) before it goes off. Infact, looking at the hitboxes for it, capfal's (which is a hitbox) actually pokes out beyond the triggerbox.

Interesting, never knew that.

I'm glad people talkin makes me get off my *** and look at stuff.

Time to go back to laying down, watching soccer, and being miserable.
 

Kasumi

Smash Journeyman
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Edit: I responsed to something that was the last post of the previous page. It's already been answered. Sorry. Delete me please.
 

#HBC | Mac

Nobody loves me
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I don't really know why you would want to nair out of shield vs spacies. Doesn't really make sense to me, maybe i'm missing something...
 

otg

Smash Master
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On my 5th 4 Loko and still ****** you.
Well it's something I've been doing with Sheik, and I figured Doc would benefit similarly (I've been playing Doc seldom lately). It's just a good anti-shield pressure tactic when upb oos might not be the best option... cause let's be real you aren't going to get lots of sg's against good spacies.
 

Dogysamich

The Designated Hype Man!
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[easypotshotatmelee]
Realistically, you shouldnt be able to try anything except for getting away from them at that point. You have to realize that somewhere along the line, somebody thought it was a good idea to give fox and falco a 1 frame attack that can be cancelled into another attack or a free move out.
[/easypotshotatmelee]

As long as said spanimal does everything right, you cant beat it. Your best answer is REALLY an up+b. Hits on frame 3, inv on frame 3. Your next fastest option out of shield is 7 frames; being a grab or frameperfect n.air.

So you actually dont want to challenge their ability to get and maintain pressure on you, you want to challenge their ability to get in in the first place.


 

#HBC | Mac

Nobody loves me
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I didn't realize the upb came out so fast. Do you think it should be used as often as samus players do it?
 

Dogysamich

The Designated Hype Man!
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You could try it, you wont really get the same result.

Samus' up+b has a little suction to it, which makes it harder to avoid on hit. Doc (or mario's up+b), you can actually DI out of.

Samus' up+b has invinc. up to the hit, and a little past it. Doc's only has invinc on the hit.


There realistically is no big fault in doing it and doing it right, but doc's up+b is nowhere near as big of a problem solver as Samus' is. And you have to realize that both of them are not THE problem solver. If you want to beat samus's up+b, you just jump next to her and bait it. She's not going to shield grab you (and if she does you roll). Granted doc can shieldgrab, he can be baited and punished the same.

___

Not saying dont ever do it. It's a risk you sometimes should take. That's what happens when you play non-high-tier characters.

 

St. Viers

Smash Champion
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Also, having platforms makes using it better, as you then can escape to a platform, or fall back through it and reland on the stage. Slightly less easy to punish.

Does anyone know whether doc can edgecancel his up-B's landing lag? He doesn't get much time to drift with it when falling, but...?
 

KAOSTAR

the Ascended One
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if you could get the momentum to push yourself into the teeter animation, i dont see why not.
Also, having platforms makes using it better, as you then can escape to a platform, or fall back through it and reland on the stage. Slightly less easy to punish.

Does anyone know whether doc can edgecancel his up-B's landing lag? He doesn't get much time to drift with it when falling, but...?
Why cant you just up+B cancel out of shield instead lol.

Then you dont even leave the ground.
 

St. Viers

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Because I suck at them. Also, there's something to be said for making UpB OOS more useful than it already is.
 

Dogysamich

The Designated Hype Man!
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Why cant you just up+B cancel out of shield instead lol.

I dunno, if I really was so bent on learning a 1 frame movement; I'd go play VF. Hell, atleast if I ****ed up that movement, I would probably dropping a combo instead of either putting myself at a continued disadvantage in shield or at risk when I up+b the wrong way being close to a ledge.

*continues laughing*
 

eighteenspikes

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Why cant you just up+B cancel out of shield instead lol.

Then you dont even leave the ground.
I know you don't main doc so don't think I'm being a **** with this but... up-b cancel is just a parlor trick, on par with a falco trying to multishine 10x in a row to break a shield when dair shines pressure just as well. Up-b out of shield is better than up-b cancel out of shield in any situation (maaaybe unless you're on FD and even that's debatable IMO). More damage, more knockback, safer, easier.
 
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