Q&A Doc General Discussion: Ask and ye shall receive ft. otg and Shroomed!

[VGmasta]

Nice work OTG and Shroomed at APEX!

 

[SmashMac]

Good matches otg and Shroomed. The Doc. matches were fun and good job with your placings in the tournament.

 

[DJ Nintendo]

Good games and good **** to all my fellow Doc players.

 

[Inty17]

Apex has made me switch mains. Marth's starting to bore me, and I've had a pocket Mario for a while, but he just can't kill anything. I've decided I kind of like this character

 

[Max?]

Im 2nd best doc

Don't make me expose you in dittos again.

$50 mm?

- Nando

Good games and good **** to all my fellow Doc players.

GG's man, you're too good

 

[Gimpyfish62]

what in the world

apparently i'm posting in the doc forums somehow?

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I saw a post in the doc boards and I was about to ignore it until I saw who the post was by....



Oh just some washed up nobody

 

[Flayl]

shroomed is so good

that is all

 

[Deleted member]

Yeah, Shroomed's clearly the best Doc. Kid took a ****ing game off Armada, you can't **** with that. I feel pretty confident saying Im the 2nd best Doc main, especially after Apex, but that really doesn't mean **** at the end of the day. After this tournament I see what I have to do to improve and I know how to get there, so off to the lab.

DJ went Doc in our set, Alu going Sheik. They just camped us out tbh, and we had a really hard time killing DJ. It was 2-0, both games super close. I'm pretty shocked we did as well as we did overall tbh, PC and I NEVER practice teams. The only practice we got at all was at 2am the night before for about an hour, and then arrived at the venue the next day without any warm up and placed 9th.

GG's to everyone I played, nice meeting all the Docs.

sorry we didnt get to play or kick it all during apex. i been told u were the homey by zoso. next time maybe

 

[Max?]

Def man, I wish we got a chance to play and hang, the tourney was just so chaotic tho. We're in there next time

 

[Gea]

<3 all you Docs.

 

[Max?]

Someone explain why Fox is so gay

 

[VGmasta]

Dogy's commentary is just out of this world. I remember telling people two years ago how good his commentary is from like two years ago after hearing him at Tipped Off 5. Now he's a favorite. Totally called it.

I watched Shroomed vs HungryBox from APEX 2012 and I'm not sure why Dogy thinks Doc can deal with Jigglypuff. It's so hard to approach Jiggs with anything as long as she's swinging in the air.

Someone explain why Fox is so gay

He's fast with good hitboxes and gauranteed stuff from shine. Fox is harder than Falcon in my opinion, but a little easier than Falco.

 

[Max?]

Yeah... Jiggs definitely beats Doc.

I think Falco is easier than Fox, just my .02 cents.

 

[Strong Badam]

max it was cool to meet you tho we never played haha
same to dogy/boss. i loves my EC Docs =)

 

[Max?]

Sorry Strong Bad, it's almost as if it was impossible to get in friendlies at this tournament.

 

[Strong Badam]

Yea almost

 

[BSeeD]

To Doc mains :

What is the main things u think are essential to win the Puff MU ?
(what to avoid at all costs, what to do mainly)

 

[ranmaru]

Pill. Use your tilts, or basically any move that is longer than Jigg's. Like LOOK AT THOSE NUBBS MAN.

K I know her bair is big and her side b I think lol. Watch out for those. You can hit in between moves if you space yourself.

When I say pill... make a pill wall. Vary the pills. Like, sh pill, fh pill, or standing pill. I just use both sh and fh pills. I also pill near the edge when she is around it. Makes it hard for her to get back. : D And make sure you make it living hell for her to approach. Give yourself some room to work with, or she'll come in and you are screwed. Prolly not. Unless you are near the edge.

Do whatever little thing to get her to 90.

Then just grab her > dthrow > fair. Ez.

That's the simple version. I'm sure others could give better advice.

I also guess you should slow down, be safe, and efficient as possible. No risks with Jiggs.

 

[BigWenz]

Main thing with jiggs is to take your time, poke with up airs, and pills are never a bad thing. Unfortunately theirs only a small window where dthrow kobe will work as a kill move. If you start the dthrow after 90%, she goes too far away for u 2 hit the kobe. Fun fact, alot of jiggs rest combos aren't as guranteed on doc as they are on other chars. As long as you dont **** up the DI, you can Up B, jump, etc out of alot of the combos like up tilt rest. Also ban dreamland in that match up for the obvious reasons of killing her is a pain in the ***. I don't think jiggs beats doc, (its my favorite high tier match up personally) but i digress, theirs gotta be a way to get past the bair camping, we just gotta figure it out.


Also good **** to shroomed for being like the only person minus Dr.PP for taking a game of Armada this tourny.

 

[Ørn]

I think dthrow > fair actually works on Puff well before 90. Maybe it's just a case of poor DI, though I could've sworn I've landed it even when they DI behind you.

I just watched Shroomed vs. Armada, really good match. While I don't claim to be an expert Doc player, I definitely think Shroomed should play a bit more hit-and-run (which he sort of did near the end of the 3rd match), since pressing the advantage against Peach usually means you'll get a nair to the face or something. Specifically, I think almost all of his uair combo attempts got him punished.

Also, what can Doc do about Peach's FC fair? Shroomed would dash dance and try to punish the lag every time, but lol it's Peach and Armada just jabbed him out of his attempts every single time. I noticed Shroomed got under him and upsmashed a few times but I'm not sure that's really reliable.

 

[Max?]

Edit: Oh I forgot to mention this. In general I think the cape is really good in neutral position. People nowadays are working spacing things SOOO well, and the cape completely ruins that. It's disjointed, fast, tacks on 13% and puts people above and in front of you if they attack from the air, so it's pretty good. I think it's very good vs. Jiggs, specifically.

To Doc mains :

What is the main things u think are essential to win the Puff MU ?
(what to avoid at all costs, what to do mainly)

You have to respect her bair. That thing will **** you, it will chain into itself, it will kill you. The only guaranteed rest combo she has on you is at 0% and it's utilt -> rest. All the other rest setups require you to **** up (getting hit by an uair/utilt without a DJ, teching predictably, etc). One thing I noticed Shroomed doing to escape Wall of Pains (and other stuff like Sheik's dthrow -> slap) is to mash UpB to escape finishers. While it is really risky, it could be the one thing that saves your life, and if it connects you are more or less safe and the situation has reset to neutral.

The general key is to stay grounded and stay in the middle of the stage, chip away at her with safe moves and then pick your moment to KO her well, because she can **** you pretty hard for mindlessly looking for a grab. Uair/bair/utilt/upangledftilt are really good poking moves. You can typically chain some stupid **** together like "FH uair-> bair -> bair" which does OK damage. Dair is also solid if you can get slightly above her, but if that wiffs, say goodbye to your stock.

Dthrow -> fair actually works through a pretty large % range, it might not KO at the very beginning of when it works, but it will connect. Doc's Dthrow is affected by weight, which means the animation for the dthrow is WAY faster on someone like Jiggs than it is on someone like Bowser. You have to react VERY fast to her DI if you plan to hit her with Fair, but it's quite doable, just comes down to your reaction time and execution.

*Side note* The one thing I will say from playing other Docs/watching them at Apex, is people gotta step up their "pivot" game, especially when it comes to Throw -> fair. I see shroomed doing bair -> pivot Dsmash, which has been one of my favorites for a long time, but I saw him mess up too many dthrow -> fairs people who DI behind simply because he didn't pivot before jumping. Same applied to Smac in our dittos, he literally missed every Dthrow -> fair he tried to do to me because I would always DI behind. Just food for thought, step it up guys.

Also, what can Doc do about Peach's FC fair? Shroomed would dash dance and try to punish the lag every time, but lol it's Peach and Armada just jabbed him out of his attempts every single time. I noticed Shroomed got under him and upsmashed a few times but I'm not sure that's really reliable.

Peach's FC fair has like +2 or +4 frame advantage, so it's really hard to beat it. Cape it maybe? Try to get underneath her as she approaches and utilt/uair/usmash? It's hard to say, Peach is really really dirty.

Props to you Shroomed for taking a game, Armada showed me why that matchup is 90-10 in our pools set. You did the one thing I was unwilling to do, which is take your time. I just get too impatient, it's really my biggest flaw in this game in general right now.

 

[Ørn]

Cape is definitely a bit underrated, and it seems like it'd be good in a lot of match-ups in theory. The hitbox is also really really tall, so it seems like it'd be good to hit a floating Peach with. Obviously it's easier said than done though, especially against Armada.

Seriously, look at how big that hitbox is. Damn.

 

[DJ Nintendo]

Doc beats Jiggs. Its one of her worst matchups, if not the worst.

 

[Vyke]

Such valuable input! Thanks, OTG.

Who else likes to cheese friends sometimes by dtilting them off of the edge at higher percentages?

 

[SmashMac]

Yeah Doc. beats Jiggs but just don't get hit off the stage. It's all about your pill game though on how you approach and if you can spam them correctly. Nair catches them off guard too with their constant rolls. Full jump dairs are nice too. Dair in general is just really good vs. most floaties especially. One thing I gotta say though is even though Doc. may be Jiggs' worst matchup, he's still hard as crap to beat.

 

[Strong Badam]

against offstage bairs DON'T DI at all if you DI out you die if you DI Up you get bair'd again

 

[VGmasta]

LOL, I've been spacing the cape forever. FOR-EVER! Just sayin'. Everytime somebody said, "Do a well-timed uptilt against Falcon's spaced nair, I'm like "Nah, I'd rather cape it". Cape is wayy better in tons of situations. But I've been saying USE THE CAPE, just like I've been saying for two years plus, USE THAT FH D-AIR! The cape ain't an answer to all obviously, but between most the Doc's I've been watching, it has been underused quite a bit.

You guys, I don't think Doc "BEATS" Jiggs. Unless you guys are going to gaurantee d-throw KOBE everytime you get Jiggs around 60% Jiggs lives all night long.

FH d-air is good ONLY if you beat Jiggs to the jump. Once Jiggs is already in the air b-airing away, it won't work unless to are higher than Jiggs and Jiggs doesn't retreat the b-air as well.

A lot of ppl keep saying Jiggs gets mopped by Doc. But I think a lot of ppl don't realize how safe Jiggs retreating b-air is. If Jiggs decides to do retreating airs, Doc really gets NOTHING from it. And if Doc decides to approach when Jiggs retreats b-air, Doc simply gets bopped in the face by a huge pink foot.

It's difficult enough to find an opening thru Jiggs wall of pain, because it actually outranges Doc's b-air. But then you have to read whether or not Jiggs is going to retreat aerials, or hover above or delay the aerial. I mean this character has crazy aerial mobility with 6 jumps to mix up. Doc air game pales in comparison.

Sorry guys, but unless we're talking about a Jiggs that is good at throwing stocks away by missing Rests and giving out free grabs, Doc does NOT beat Jiggs.

 

[DJ Nintendo]

*****s just don't understand.

 

[VGmasta]

Without Rest punishment, the only other gimmicks Doc has in the matchup against Jiggs is upsmash out of shield while Jiggs is above Doc in the air, and dashdance into F-air/delayed f-air. Shroomed did one brilliant dashdance f-air in his match against Hungrybox at Yoshi's Story. But f-airing is really risky depending when you have to catch Jiggs in the air.

But I'll show you guys how it's done once I BEAT HungryBox at one of these tournaments here.
You'll see...

Oh yeah, don't forget to tomahawk d-smash Jiggs. Great kill move for killing shielders/shieldgrabbers! Tomahawk d-smash is really fast and I feel that maneuver is underused as well.

 

[DJ Nintendo]

Doc has mad **** against Jiggs.

 

[Max?]

Doc has mad **** against Jiggs.

Would you care to elaborate?

I also happen to agree with Ricky that a Jiggs that is super patient with Bairs will most likely beat a Doc, but then again I'm curious to see how a campy, pill heavy, confident in landing grabs Doc could do vs. someone like the Box.

 

[DJ Nintendo]

Would you care to elaborate?

I also happen to agree with Ricky that a Jiggs that is super patient with Bairs will most likely beat a Doc, but then again I'm curious to see how a campy, pill heavy, confident in landing grabs Doc could do vs. someone like the Box.

Definitely not gonna elaborate. Thats too much to type.

 

[boss8]

i never played that guy....i wanna play him!! >=]

 

[HomeMadeWaffles]

i feel like doc/puff is one of those match-ups i think is even, thats just me tho

usually the better ends up winning it

after losing to hbox with doc though i dont really see how a doc could get around it without just clearly being better than him, cuz i think even dajuan at his best they're about even. i just watched him and dajuan, i think dajuan racked up damage really well, he just struggled to get the kill is all. i think for doc to beat him you definitely gotta get the first kill, then force him to approach. Im def curious on how to beat hbox with doc cuz it looks damn near impossible.

ima ask for tips in this thread eventually

been playing doc more, he's tight.

 

[SmashMac]

The thing is that Doc. has a very high potential to beat Jiggs and is one of Jiggs' worst matchups. It doesn't mean just 'cause that happens to be one of Jiggs' worst matchups that by default the Doc. should win, but if played right and both players are equal in skill and know the matchup that Doc. has the advantage. Honestly, I haven't seen this personally but have heard it from some Jiggs players in the past that I've played against and seen play.

 

[Vyke]

I think the only way one could get solid info on this match-up would be to sit down and do matches with HBox/Mang0/etc all day and then get back to us.

Theorycrafting is nice and all, but it doesn't really get us anywhere unless put into use!

 

[VGmasta]

Yeah that pill camping doesn't work that great against patience.

Pills don't even don't anything. I tried it against HungryBox before. I used to play against Raistlin as well. Raistlin was easier to annoy with pill camping. But HBox just aerial camped them the whole time. And if you watch Shroomed vs Hbox or DJ Nintendo vs Hbox, the pills did not make Hbox approach. Doc's pills aren't as threatening as Fox's lasers or Young Link's bombs because the pills have such a small hitbox that is easily beaten by most of the aerials in the game, let alone Jiggs' aerials. It's really dangerous for Doc to throw pills when Jiggs is constantly harassing Doc's space with b-airs.

I think the only way one could get solid info on this match-up would be to sit down and do matches with HBox/Mang0/etc all day and then get back to us.

I recall OTG saying he got quite some time in with HBox when he was in New York. After his tourney match against HBox he called all the friendlies he had with Hbox a sandbag.

I think playing HBox's Jiggs longer than a couple of hours straight would be counter-efficient at this point. The kid's just gonna learn new ways to land Rests on Dr Mario. I've seen that kinda stuff happen right before my eyes.

 

[Max?]

Yeah that pill camping doesn't work that great against patience.

Pills don't even don't anything. I tried it against HungryBox before. I used to play against Raistlin as well. Raistlin was easier to annoy with pill camping. But HBox just aerial camped them the whole time. And if you watch Shroomed vs Hbox or DJ Nintendo vs Hbox, the pills did not make Hbox approach. Doc's pills aren't as threatening as Fox's lasers or Young Link's bombs because the pills have such a small hitbox that is easily beaten by most of the aerials in the game, let alone Jiggs' aerials. It's really dangerous for Doc to throw pills when Jiggs is constantly harassing Doc's space with b-airs.




I recall OTG saying he got quite some time in with HBox when he was in New York. After his tourney match against HBox he called all the friendlies he had with Hbox a sandbag.

I think playing HBox's Jiggs longer than a couple of hours straight would be counter-efficient at this point. The kid's just gonna learn new ways to land Rests on Dr Mario. I've seen that kinda stuff happen right before my eyes.

Yeah I housed Hungrybox two years ago when he came up for a huge No Johns. We played a ton, and I did really solidly vs. him in friendlies that weekend, I remember thinking "is this dude overrated or am I just the ****ing best player ever?" Then we played in tournament.....

Yea.


I think the thing with pills is that Jiggs can just swat right thru them with her moves and keep coming at you. She can't do that to Bombs cause they asplode and stuff, and then she gets ***** for that.

 

[Blistering Speed]

Definitely not gonna elaborate. Thats too much to type.

So insightful.

IIRC, you're the guy who talked **** about Puff being easy if you know how to fight her. Then you tried to prove your point and got utterly stomped by Hbox when you challenged him first round.