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Q&A Doc General Discussion: Ask and ye shall receive ft. otg and Shroomed!
- Thread starter otg
- Start date
boss8
Smash Hero
LOOOL
wow....cept doc isnt as clutch as kobe..
wow....cept doc isnt as clutch as kobe..
Smooth Criminal
Da Cheef
Need to photoshop other characters on the other ballers.
Smooth Criminal
Smooth Criminal
Nujabes
Smash Apprentice
It may sound odd but next time I play doc Im going to treat it like ganon v falcon.
More tilts, more grabs less aerial spam stuff..
More tilts, more grabs less aerial spam stuff..
Max?
Smash Champion
Ftilt is amazing. Throwing out grabs a lot is not.
Nujabes
Smash Apprentice
Ftilt wdforward grab?
are you talking about playing doc or playing against doc?It may sound odd but next time I play doc Im going to treat it like ganon v falcon.
More tilts, more grabs less aerial spam stuff..
Nujabes
Smash Apprentice
Against, range and speed of my tilts, to a grab to the usual
Fortress | Sveet
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18spikes used to use dtilt a lot. When ur back is to the edge you can CC dtilt or WD back dtilt and set up and edgeguard afterwards
VGmasta
Smash Lord
True, very true. Unless your opponent is a shield noob.
Inty17
Smash Journeyman
Can I have help on my jab game? I know I'm supposed to jab and either read a grab or a dsmash at its most basic form, but i'd like more elaborate tricks than that. Could someone help me with the use of double jabs or utilt at close range?
Fortress | Sveet
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No input but braid is the ****
Inty17
Smash Journeyman
I've just made a friend today.
Shroomed
Smash Master
Throwing out a ton of grabs is nooby but I do it constantly and eat a ton of punishment because of it LOOOOL.
That being said, when I do get a grab/knockdown I go pretty hard so it balances out. Condition your opponent to shield a lot (doing this is EXTREMELY hard though especially against the furious 5) and then you can grab more.
Jab tricks I like but don't do enough yet:
The Bob$ special: Jab -> spaced pivot bair
THE MINDGAME: Jab -> dash dance grab
**** EM UP: Jab -> dash dance uair -> combo
Those are the only good followups after a jab and they ALL require you to somewhat read your opponent.
That being said, when I do get a grab/knockdown I go pretty hard so it balances out. Condition your opponent to shield a lot (doing this is EXTREMELY hard though especially against the furious 5) and then you can grab more.
Jab tricks I like but don't do enough yet:
The Bob$ special: Jab -> spaced pivot bair
THE MINDGAME: Jab -> dash dance grab
**** EM UP: Jab -> dash dance uair -> combo
Those are the only good followups after a jab and they ALL require you to somewhat read your opponent.
Nujabes
Smash Apprentice
Furious five?
Shroomed
Smash Master
Sorry, I just watched Kung Fu Panda 2 but I meant Fox, Falco, Sheik, Marth, and Falcon.
Each jab mixup has its use depending on what you think your opponent will do in response. If you want I can go into semi-detail about what to do when you expect them to do _____.
But I have a question, can Doc follow up on an opponent if they roll away after jab? Would WD dsmash or ftilt be fast enough?
Inty17
Smash Journeyman
I'm gonna write these down :D
Nujabes
Smash Apprentice
When i read furious 5 i though of the mantis and snake and such fight each other on FoDSorry, I just watched Kung Fu Panda 2 but I meant Fox, Falco, Sheik, Marth, and Falcon.
Each jab mixup has its use depending on what you think your opponent will do in response. If you want I can go into semi-detail about what to do when you expect them to do _____.
But I have a question, can Doc follow up on an opponent if they roll away after jab? Would WD dsmash or ftilt be fast enough?
I think that would depend on the character's roll
Gea
Smash Master
Pretty sure unless you get the jump on them, wd dsmash is too slow for most rolls if they roll away from you.
Edit: You still might catch people trying to do anything besides shield, though.
Edit: You still might catch people trying to do anything besides shield, though.
boss8
Smash Hero
WD grab is a better option...it all depends on what they do after they roll....
Gea
Smash Master
...And how fast you are reading their roll.
Max?
Smash Champion
Maybe try Dash/WD -> Jab? The range is solid and the jab comes out fast enough where Dsmash/ftilt might be too laggy. Plus it essentially resets the situation and forces an action from them again.But I have a question, can Doc follow up on an opponent if they roll away after jab? Would WD dsmash or ftilt be fast enough?
D
Deleted member
Guest
the mindgame sounds horrid
boss8
Smash Hero
kinda like when falcon nairs...and then either jumps at you with a dair...or knee...or attempts to grab you after...
its all horrible mixups IMO -_^b
its all horrible mixups IMO -_^b
Fortress | Sveet
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Shroomed, I just went into dolphin to test it for you. What I did was do a jab at a normal spacing on fox's shield and had him roll backwards afterwards (at buffer roll timing). I dashed ASAP with doc (might be 1 frame off) and then attempted a JC grab. I came up short on the grab by about half a character length on the same frame fox was able to shield.
What I will tell you is that jab is -9 on block, which means you can start doing something 9 frames after they could start doing something. I don't think you have time to react to the roll in those 9 frames, but if you were to predict the roll you might be able to get a true punish depending on how well you spaced the jab (worse spacing = better). If nothing else you should be able to take good positioning.
Keep in mind it also matters who your opponent is, since each character has different roll speeds. Heres an information dump of roll ratings from m2k's statistics for you to browse through:
edit- so you know the first number in the ratio is the number of invincible frames and the second number is the total frames it takes for the roll animation to finish. For example, marth's back roll is 20/35 which means its invincible for 20 of 35 total frames. It also matters how long a character's roll is, but I don't have that data available to give out. Mewtwo has the biggest roll tho, fyi
[collapse=Roll Ratings]
[/collapse]
What I will tell you is that jab is -9 on block, which means you can start doing something 9 frames after they could start doing something. I don't think you have time to react to the roll in those 9 frames, but if you were to predict the roll you might be able to get a true punish depending on how well you spaced the jab (worse spacing = better). If nothing else you should be able to take good positioning.
Keep in mind it also matters who your opponent is, since each character has different roll speeds. Heres an information dump of roll ratings from m2k's statistics for you to browse through:
edit- so you know the first number in the ratio is the number of invincible frames and the second number is the total frames it takes for the roll animation to finish. For example, marth's back roll is 20/35 which means its invincible for 20 of 35 total frames. It also matters how long a character's roll is, but I don't have that data available to give out. Mewtwo has the biggest roll tho, fyi
[collapse=Roll Ratings]
Code:
Roll Ratings - measures how long a character is
invincible during his/her roll, kind of like it
is on the dodge ratings list, ranking a roll's
rating by the percentage of the roll that you're
invincible to ALL attack. (BTW, every decimal in
the percentages are ALL repeating decimals, so I
didn't bother to put a line over it or ..... to
signify that it's a repeating decimal, because
by coincidence ALL of the decimals are repeating
decimals).
*Almost every roll has a starting time of 3
frames (so you CAN be hit on frames 1, 2, and 3,
but you CAN'T be hit on 4, 5, 6, etc.)
***Jigglypuff's FORWARD roll has a quick starting
time of 2 frames, but it has the same TOTAL TIME
as her BACK roll because the FORWARD roll ends
"invincible time" (near the end of the roll) 1
frame before her BACK roll does. Coincidentially
the total time is the same though.
*****Bowser's rolls have a starting time of 4
frames (so you CAN be hit frames 1, 2, 3, and 4
but you CAN'T be hit frames 5, 6, 7, etc.)
Group A
20/35 or 57.142857%
---Marth's "BACK" Roll
---Roy's "BACK" Roll
Group B
16/31 or 51.612903225806451%
---Captain Falcon (Both Rolls)
---DK (Both Rolls)
---Dr. Mario (Both Rolls)
---Falco (Both Rolls)
---Fox (Both Rolls)
---Ganondorf (Both Rolls)
---Ice Climbers (Both Rolls)
---Kirby (Both Rolls)
---Luigi (Both Rolls)
---Mario (Both Rolls)
---Ness (Both Rolls)
---Peach (Both Rolls)
---Pichu (Both Rolls)
---Pikachu (Both Rolls)
---Sheik (Both Rolls)
---Zelda (Both Rolls)
Group C
18/37 or 48.648%
---Mewtwo's "FORWARD" Roll
Group D
16/33 or 48.48%
---Yoshi (Both Rolls)
Group E
16/34 or 47.0588235294117647%
---Jigglypuff (Both Rolls)***
Group F
16/35 or 45.714285%
---Marth's "FORWARD" Roll
---Mr. Game & Watch (Both Rolls)
---Roy's "FORWARD" Roll
Group G
20/44 or 45.45%
---Samus (Both Rolls)
Group H
16/37 or 43.243%
---Link (Both Rolls)
---Mewtwo's "BACK" Roll
---Young Link (Both Rolls)
Group I
16/39 or 41.025641%
---Bowser (Both Rolls)*****Gea
Smash Master
Sveet = legit.
Max?
Smash Champion
VGmasta
Smash Lord
So who else thinks Falco is easier than Fox?
I think Falco is the tougher matchup.
I think Falco is the tougher matchup.
boss8
Smash Hero
falco is just ugh =/
Shroomed
Smash Master
The mindgame worked on M2K so **** you Johnny LOL.
Go to 4:15 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJ787Wlke0s
The Bob$ seems amazing, but I never do it.
EDIT: Thanks Sveet
Go to 4:15 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJ787Wlke0s
The Bob$ seems amazing, but I never do it.
EDIT: Thanks Sveet
D
Deleted member
Guest
running past them is different, i pictured it as jab then dash dance outside
Max?
Smash Champion
At the moment I have a harder time vs. Fox than Falco. The Fox's I play against can Waveshine-> Usmash consistently, have no problem platform camping and timing me out.
So yeah it's really annoying. Falco is a lot slower and yeah, he has a lot of really annoying tools but it's a lot more manageable than Fox's who are super gay imo.
So yeah it's really annoying. Falco is a lot slower and yeah, he has a lot of really annoying tools but it's a lot more manageable than Fox's who are super gay imo.
Inty17
Smash Journeyman
I hate Falco sooooooo much. Always have, always will.
VGmasta
Smash Lord
Fox is harder to catch. But Falco is harder to trade hits with.
Crouch canceling works so much more vs Fox. Falco's d-air and b-air are so domineering.
That's a fresh avatar. Where'd you get it?
EDIT:
SHROOMED YOU COULD GIMP REALLY EARLY A THOUSAND MORE TIMES IF YOU WOULD JUST DO THAT VGMASTA SPECIAL I MENTIONED BEFORE; RUN OFF AND B-AIR THE JUMP IN. Like land a grab on Fox near the edge at early percent, f-throw him offstage. At this point Fox will probably jump in toward the edge from underneath to avoid the typical edgeguards. You don't have enough time to turn your back to set up a turn around b-air, and he won't be high enough to be hit by a f-tilt or a pill. At this point, just run off the stage and dropzone b-air him. Lots of ppl won't expect it and it works really well.
Crouch canceling works so much more vs Fox. Falco's d-air and b-air are so domineering.
That's a fresh avatar. Where'd you get it?
EDIT:
SHROOMED YOU COULD GIMP REALLY EARLY A THOUSAND MORE TIMES IF YOU WOULD JUST DO THAT VGMASTA SPECIAL I MENTIONED BEFORE; RUN OFF AND B-AIR THE JUMP IN. Like land a grab on Fox near the edge at early percent, f-throw him offstage. At this point Fox will probably jump in toward the edge from underneath to avoid the typical edgeguards. You don't have enough time to turn your back to set up a turn around b-air, and he won't be high enough to be hit by a f-tilt or a pill. At this point, just run off the stage and dropzone b-air him. Lots of ppl won't expect it and it works really well.