Q&A Doc General Discussion: Ask and ye shall receive ft. otg and Shroomed!

[VGmasta]

USA Docs >>> Japanese Docs

 

[ranmaru]

I also think... USA FOX's > JAPANESE FOX's...

Seriously. I don't think the fox did as well as our foxes. (I can't base any other foreign foxes, but i know KK is damn good and I don't really follow any other countries)

Seriously. That fox didn't grabbbbbb. Lol. Just arials. ARIALS.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

aerials has an 'e' in it

otherwise..

 

[Max?]

Japan is clearly behind in the melee metagame.... is this even a question?

 

[ranmaru]

I just didn't expect them to be loool. Maybe it's just some random tourny? Like how the hell can Japan be so good at BRAWL olimar and not be good at melee stuff?

 

[Shroomed]

Kou is their best, that should let you know all you need to know. (Not trying to be mean)

I want to play more outside of Norcal A LOT.

 

[Gea]

Come down to Texas sometime. Lots of players that don't travel OoS much. There are some fairly good players here, like Wobbles, Xelic, etc.

 

[Shroomed]

I'm almost to a point where I might start saving money from locals and trying to go to semi-big OOR tournaments.

Just depends on how my first round of exams go, school's got to come first.

 

[Max?]

I'm almost to a point where I might start saving money from locals and trying to go to semi-big OOR tournaments.

Just depends on how my first round of exams go, school's got to come first.

That would be sick. Come out to Tristate. I know we're all whack, but you'll have a good time.

 

[Frisbie]

who do you guys think is better vs marth, doc or mario?

 

[Beat!]

Definitely Doc.

 

[Frisbie]

what makes you say that?

 

[Gea]

Fair, dsmash.

 

[ranmaru]

I need more Marth practice.

 

[Frisbie]

i used to be really bad at the marth matchup. i really like the mathup though because you really have to be careful and space really well. i think it's close between mario and doc as far as this matchup goes. i really like the extra speed and range that mario has, but i think pills are what makes this a better matchup for doc

 

[Max?]

Doc does better because of Pills/Dsmash/better cape and bair for gimping, usmash OOS.

Doc's just a better character, it took people a long time to finally acknowledge it, but it's really true.

 

[ranmaru]

Yo yo how do I do usmash oos better loool.

 

[Max?]

Uh, practice?

 

[ranmaru]

No I mean uh, do I just have to let go of shield then cstick up. Yeah I will practice it haha but I was wondering if there was a diff way or I just have to try it like that

I just don't know what different ways you can oos upsmash.

Or maybe there's faster ways to drop shield? :D Lol I dunno, I'm just pullin questions from mah ***

 

[Gea]

No you don't let go of your shield. It's more like a JC usmash. In fact that is exactly what it is. Tap control stick up, then c stick up slightly after. You never have to drop your shield at all, the jump cancels the shield.

Pills are less useful in the Marth MU imo than Doc's bair, usmash, dsmash, and fair. Having a killmove out of a throw is still way better than options Mario has. Plus our nair is better for that MU imo. Cape is better for his up B but it's kinda finnicky to get spaced right so you don't get poked. Don't get me wrong, pills are good because of the bounce but all it really does 90% of the time is slow Marth down into swatting them. Mario's best asset over Doc is really his fsmash (and grab game vs a few minor characters) but both of these things are not really useful vs Marth imo.

 

[Frisbie]

i really like pills in this matchup because they help keep marth away and limit his movement and approaches, and also help me approach. basically, i like the control they give me.

 

[Gea]

Retreating or standing fairs and ftilt make pills pretty useless for approach unless the Marth lets them bounce under him. Ftilt clanks and lets him do anything after. Pills just make him space his jumps carefully or eat 8%. They aren't worthless but it shouldn't let you approach Marth. In fact, you shouldn't be approaching Marth straight up anyways. You stay just out of his reach, try to force him to commit into something like a jump, then you go in.

Pills have enough cooldown that they are big commiters. If you start from far back and follow one, a fair can get both it and you. Or he can clank then do anything. If you follow one in close you'll still have lag. Their use in the MU is to lock marth down so he can't DD / go for lots of grabs and try to throw him into doing something dumb or taking 7-8% here or there.

So yeah, all in all their biggest contribution is cutting down his DD/grab game.

Edit: I forgot to mention Ftilt. It ***** vs marth

 

[ranmaru]

No you don't let go of your shield. It's more like a JC usmash. In fact that is exactly what it is. Tap control stick up, then c stick up slightly after. You never have to drop your shield at all, the jump cancels the shield.

Pills are less useful in the Marth MU imo than Doc's bair, usmash, dsmash, and fair. Having a killmove out of a throw is still way better than options Mario has. Plus our nair is better for that MU imo. Cape is better for his up B but it's kinda finnicky to get spaced right so you don't get poked. Don't get me wrong, pills are good because of the bounce but all it really does 90% of the time is slow Marth down into swatting them. Mario's best asset over Doc is really his fsmash (and grab game vs a few minor characters) but both of these things are not really useful vs Marth imo.

Ah ok thank you. : D

 

[boss8]

Yo yo how do I do usmash oos better loool.

i think there are 2 ways to do this....

wit Cstick or analog....

but Cstick night be easier..

 

[Inty17]

C Stick is ALWAYS easier out of shield.

 

[Cyphus]

hey whaddup everyone. I moved the Austin and started playing with the scene here. Getting to play new people is awesome, but hopefully I can start making tournaments w/ everything else going on. Anywho...I miss the doc community, and i'm high right now, but I wanna start discussing doc again.

 

[Frisbie]

there's a big tournament in houston next week, which im sure a lot of people from austin will be attending. it would be pretty cool if you went. im getting ready to fight marths, cause i lost to this marth main that i think i should have beat at the last tournament if you want to talk about the marth matchup

 

[ranmaru]

I recently lost to a marth as well. We both played pretty damn closely. Us docs really have to be safe and not mistakes... whoo. A mistake cost me the set. xD (and match)

 

[Cyphus]

it'll be a bit til i can travel to tournies, I have a lot of stuff to catch up on...but i think theres one here in austin soon. hopefully they'll be recording on a tv and i can get some matches in.

vs marth, something I'm recently noticing, is how rare you can crouch cancel anything. The only opportunity you have is closing the distance before a f.air...but if you mess up, you get destroyed.
I find I do best with quick little combos like upair-d.smash early on, or WD f.tilt from a spaced pill. pillrushing usually gets me in trouble, and i find better luck whenever I can followup anything into a Jab, which puts him in a bad spot, naked or shielded. Doc's A-A-A is actually pretty good. Its safe, while still slow- which people should opt for the 2nd hit sometimes just to mix it up on shield.
..and i find having to work so hard for opportunities, whereas Marth just needs a f.air, or upthrow to put a lot of damage. and if he catches doc off his 2nd jump, its really bad. Sometimes you just gotta bite the bullet and DI off stage and try to get to edge.
i ramble, but anything particular about the matchup ya'll experience?

I'd probably argue the matchup marth's favor 55/45. I don't find it any particularly more difficult than spacies, or sheik, or anyone. TBH I just find him not fast enough sometimes and he forces you to guess/read a little more, which makes keeping a lead alright, but when forced to approach- he IS predictable. any hit has the possibility of giving you momentum for the stock, but when its a matter of who can get in, the sword eats everything you can throw. I haven't had game systems in a long time, but next time i visit and spar with a marth i'll be taking good notes. not that everything about the matchup hasn't been written already, but a fresh look is always nice, especially after a break.

 

[Shroomed]

Doc ***** Marth hard so long as you don't get tippered and/or gimped.

Use c-stick and analog to usmash OOS everyone!

 

[onionchowder]

Tips for edgeguarding Marth?

I've tried Bairs from the ledge, but smart Marths just go low and use their double-jump wisely. Is there a better way to land Bairs?

I've tried caping Marth's up-B, but I can never seem to get the timing down (can anyone do this consistently?)

What i've resorted to more recently is light-shield edgeguarding and coming up with Fairs, but obviously light shield edgeguarding has its drawbacks (good sweetspotting stops its, and Bair gimps punish much harder than landing a Fair).

 

[Frisbie]

the cape has more range than most people think, try standing back more. also, if you can get your opponent to up b on the stage, whether you grab the ledge or not, you can punish the landing lag with a foward smash, grab, etc.

 

[Max?]

If Marth goes low just cape him, it's damn near impossible for him to sweetspot if you have the spacing down. WL bair off stage. Throw pills at him from the distance.

You can also grab the ledge, force him to upb onstage and fsmash him back off, similar to sheik. He has a lot of landing lag.

 

[Gea]

One of the best ways to kill 90% of Marth players out there is to nudge them offstage just a tiny iddy bitty bit then ftilt then out of their DJ. Almost all of them feel safe fairing back on vs a Doc that is facing them. Free gimp all day.

But yeah, if his Up B is hitting you, stand farther back before caping. Just pressure them to use their DJ and take care of them however you see fit.

 

[Frisbie]

also be careful when holding the ledge, because if you dont get off quick enough and get up-b'ed or faired, it can easily turn into you being edgegaurded, which is like instant death

 

[Shroomed]

If you hit a Marth with a pill while he's offstage, should be guaranteed kill for you.

And everyone should start usmash-> fair edgeguarding!

 

[Frisbie]

usmash-> fair edgeguarding? like if marth up-b's on stage usmash and then fair him? ive seen you do that to m2k's sheik, it was pretty dirty. you have to hit them with the back of the head, right?

 

[Max?]

And everyone should start usmash-> fair edgeguarding!

I gotta start doing that.

 

[Gea]

Speaking of things to start doing, I never really messed around with up B cancels. They seemed daunting, you know? Learned it in about 15. It's not so bad at all. Time to get out of my shield... in style.

 

[Cyphus]

i UpB out of shield alll the time...and not even canceling, just to punish the slightest imperfect shuffles- even from behind. I used to be able to cancel 1/3rd the time..but tbh I think i'd rather just get the damage. and alot of times you can clank with the shine and have time to go back in your shield or jab (unless they double shine)
you can upB carry oponents to the top platform of yoshi/FoD, and f.smash their particular awkward (missed) tech.

even without platforms, its quicker than upsmash (though not nearly as rewarding) but still having more opportunities -unless used incorrecty in which case you get *****