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Q&A Doc General Discussion: Ask and ye shall receive ft. otg and Shroomed!
- Thread starter otg
- Start date
Gea
Smash Master
Eh, as Dogy said a long time ago, the risk vs reward sucks most of the time.
eh, I argue its quite useful, especially in those situations where its the only option to break out of shield pressure (unless you wanna buffer roll). Just experiment a lot with it til you understand the ins and outs of its properties, and I say its a very good tool. Worst case, some free percent and get some breathing room. and I can't really stress enough how it drops fastfallers (or others, at low percents) on their face on platforms for more punishment. I UpB alooooot, and people think I'm trolling- but i'm really not.
personally, I've been working upsmash OOS into my game. I've still got situations where I miscalculate the window for it, but UpB usually covers those.
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i don't know if dr.mario really has a 'worst' matchup. on paper it seems marth and sheik, to me. already talked about marth, but sheik seems to have an answer to everything or can just retreat (like most higher tiers) til doc takes bigger risks. captain can be pretty unforgiving too.
personally, I've been working upsmash OOS into my game. I've still got situations where I miscalculate the window for it, but UpB usually covers those.
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i don't know if dr.mario really has a 'worst' matchup. on paper it seems marth and sheik, to me. already talked about marth, but sheik seems to have an answer to everything or can just retreat (like most higher tiers) til doc takes bigger risks. captain can be pretty unforgiving too.
Max?
Smash Champion
At this point in time I think Doc's worst matchup is Sheik, tho they are all roughly the same level of difficulty and it comes down to preference
VGmasta
Smash Lord
Yeah Sheik is a huge pain. And Marth is the worst matchup I ever heard of. Doc can barely approach either one of them.
boss8
Smash Hero
shroomed lost money to me in a mango vs Hbox sidebet...
then i lost it right back xD
then i lost it right back xD
Shroomed
Smash Master
LOOOOL
I love the faith people have in my skill.
I'll let you decide.
EDIT: I'll make it a little easier. How well do you think Javi knows the Doc matchup?
boss8
Smash Hero
shroomed obviously gonna wreck him....
jus cause exp/smarts....
jus cause exp/smarts....
Max?
Smash Champion
My money is on Shroomed.
Gea
Smash Master
Shroomed gonna wear them reebok pumps and go for broke.
boss8
Smash Hero
VGmasta
Smash Lord
Of course Shroomed can beat Javi. But just because Shroomed can beat Javi does not mean Shroomed will outplace Javi. There's other factors to take into account. Remember, Shroomed lost to 1st (Armada) and 2nd (Hungrybox) at the last APEX (2012) tournament and placed 7th.
Nujabes
Smash Apprentice
How is Doc in teams?
I watched some vids of otg with PC from apex i believe
and was wondering what yall thought
I watched some vids of otg with PC from apex i believe
and was wondering what yall thought
Max?
Smash Champion
Doc in teams is solid. He can get fast gimps, get people offstage quickly, set up for his opponent well and handle crowd control to a degree. I think he's pretty good at dealing with 2v1's, but I'm sure a lot of people here would disagree with that.
I almost came back against Alu/DJ at Apex when they had a 3 stock to 1 lead vs. me. I ended up getting them to one stock at high % iirc by ledge camping, doing safe **** and running the **** away.
I almost came back against Alu/DJ at Apex when they had a 3 stock to 1 lead vs. me. I ended up getting them to one stock at high % iirc by ledge camping, doing safe **** and running the **** away.
Nujabes
Smash Apprentice
When you posted the videos in Pinkie productions, it was the first tine I had seen you play.
"Knowing" that he is solid in teams what would you suggest as his partner?
I'm asking because my usual partner may not be at our local tourny this time so, I may team with Frisbie
Ganon and Flaco are my best chars
"Knowing" that he is solid in teams what would you suggest as his partner?
I'm asking because my usual partner may not be at our local tourny this time so, I may team with Frisbie
Ganon and Flaco are my best chars
onionchowder
Smash Journeyman
There's a difference between Shroomed beating Javi 1v1 and Shroomed outplacing Javi. I definitely think Shroomed would win 1v1, but Doc can get ****ed up by bad matchups in bracket.
On the topic of USmash->Fair -- When does it work? I've noticed USmash hits less far when the target is on the ground, which can lead into Fairs. What %s does this work at on different chars, and is it DI dependent?
On the topic of USmash->Fair -- When does it work? I've noticed USmash hits less far when the target is on the ground, which can lead into Fairs. What %s does this work at on different chars, and is it DI dependent?
Max?
Smash Champion
You can't go wrong with Fox. Sheik/Falcon/Peach are all good choices as well.
I would team with whoever you are comfortable with. I've teamed with Niko (Marth main), N64 (Pikachu main), Abate (a Luigi Main) and DJ (Doc Double, other janky stuff) and ***** a TON of teams in tourney.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8TaBCttBnfM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K_6Xn3PbjVg
Teaming with someone you play with alot is key. If you're comfortable with each others styles, you will know what to look for and what to avoid. PC and I are so good with one another because he has a great idea of what I'm going to do and when I'm going to do it.
Funny thing is, we NEVER practice teams. We had roughly an hour of practice total for Apex, and it was the night before the tourney at 3am. We had 0 warmups and opportunities to practice at the venue itself because there were no setups to play friendlies on. So yeah, I'm kinda shocked we did as well as we did lol.
@ Onion Chowder: You got it right man. Usmash is optimal when you do it to grounded opponents. At lower %, they might not go very far, in which case you would want to try and hit them as they are in the air. At higher %, they will go too far if they are in the air.
The optimal % range I look for is about 70 - 75% before the Usmash, assuming they are grounded.
I would team with whoever you are comfortable with. I've teamed with Niko (Marth main), N64 (Pikachu main), Abate (a Luigi Main) and DJ (Doc Double, other janky stuff) and ***** a TON of teams in tourney.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8TaBCttBnfM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K_6Xn3PbjVg
Teaming with someone you play with alot is key. If you're comfortable with each others styles, you will know what to look for and what to avoid. PC and I are so good with one another because he has a great idea of what I'm going to do and when I'm going to do it.
Funny thing is, we NEVER practice teams. We had roughly an hour of practice total for Apex, and it was the night before the tourney at 3am. We had 0 warmups and opportunities to practice at the venue itself because there were no setups to play friendlies on. So yeah, I'm kinda shocked we did as well as we did lol.
@ Onion Chowder: You got it right man. Usmash is optimal when you do it to grounded opponents. At lower %, they might not go very far, in which case you would want to try and hit them as they are in the air. At higher %, they will go too far if they are in the air.
The optimal % range I look for is about 70 - 75% before the Usmash, assuming they are grounded.
VGmasta
Smash Lord
Ok so Doc in teams...
Yes, Doc can cover options on the ground pretty well, and can edgeguard nicely. Doc's strong point on the stage is right there on the ground. He's got good movement, good wavedash, fast jab, nice smash attacks, and a good grab game. The pills have usefulness as well. All of which compliment his ground arsenal.
The air is what screws Doc up. Just make Doc have to challenge the air if you want him to struggle in teams. Doc's aerial game is not that good. He just doesn't cover enough space in the air fast enough. Doc's aerials lack attack range and his jump and fall speed is too slow. With that said, I don't think Doc is very good 2v1. Doc's not one of those characters who is gonna just wreck through two opponents who are already waving too many spaced attacks.
Doc probably does best in teams with someone who can pose an aerial threat. Have someone, like Fox, Sheik, Falcon, Ganon, and a bunch of other characters who pose a threat against "airheads". Like it's risky to go in the air against Ganon and Falcon because of the up-airs and combos that they can make out of the situation. No one likes to go in the air too much against Fox because how freely he can approach.
Yes, Doc can cover options on the ground pretty well, and can edgeguard nicely. Doc's strong point on the stage is right there on the ground. He's got good movement, good wavedash, fast jab, nice smash attacks, and a good grab game. The pills have usefulness as well. All of which compliment his ground arsenal.
The air is what screws Doc up. Just make Doc have to challenge the air if you want him to struggle in teams. Doc's aerial game is not that good. He just doesn't cover enough space in the air fast enough. Doc's aerials lack attack range and his jump and fall speed is too slow. With that said, I don't think Doc is very good 2v1. Doc's not one of those characters who is gonna just wreck through two opponents who are already waving too many spaced attacks.
Doc probably does best in teams with someone who can pose an aerial threat. Have someone, like Fox, Sheik, Falcon, Ganon, and a bunch of other characters who pose a threat against "airheads". Like it's risky to go in the air against Ganon and Falcon because of the up-airs and combos that they can make out of the situation. No one likes to go in the air too much against Fox because how freely he can approach.
Not sure if that was like a "people should have more faith in my skill, I've proved myself" or a "Wow, why do you have so much faith in my skill, Javi totally outplaced me at apex?"
rrgh
Yeah I'll make the bet. I BELIEVE IN YOU, SHROOMED! Plus Javi prolly doesn't know the MU.
And honestly I don't see shroomed getting lower than 3rd there. He beats s2j and lovage (is lovage going) pretty consistently.
boss8
Smash Hero
Niko45
Smash Master
Idk how well shroomed knows the double shine matchup
Max?
Smash Champion
Lol Exposed
VGmasta
Smash Lord
That's a good point though. Doc's upsmash out of shield doesn't work against Fox's double shine. And smart Fox players will mix in those shinegrabs too. There's no escape at that point.
Max?
Smash Champion
*Cough* PC *Cough*
Max?
Smash Champion
Nope, good luck tho
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
I dunno why you guys bother to do double shines or shine-grabs or whatever on Shroomed's up smashes. You can just mindlessly drillshine with decent timing and the invincibility on his face is irrelevant as long as you just cancel the shine with decent speed and get your spinny kick out ASAP.
Another crazy option that nobody considers (that Unknown used to pretty good effect) is to just arbitrarily full jump during pressure sequences (do it really randomly). If he goes for the up smash, free falling uair (or similar move of choice). Fox likes free combos because... free combos are freaking ****.
Fox is the devil.
Another crazy option that nobody considers (that Unknown used to pretty good effect) is to just arbitrarily full jump during pressure sequences (do it really randomly). If he goes for the up smash, free falling uair (or similar move of choice). Fox likes free combos because... free combos are freaking ****.
Fox is the devil.
unknown522
Some guy
i was at a tournament this weekend and i played this peach main named kosmos if anyone knows him. the first game i played doc and lost, and then i decided to go mario the second game and did a lot better (still lost though haha, he was pretty good). i talked to gea, who was also at the tournament, and he agreed that he thought that mario might be better vs peach than doc. are there any other matchups where you guys think that mario might have more advantages than doc?
Max?
Smash Champion
Idk if you doing better vs. Kosmos with Mario is a sign that Mario does better in the matchup. I would think Doc does better as he has more conducive tools for KOing her off the top, and a better projectile to camp her out. Neither of them can really combo her that effectively to begin with, so I would imagine Doc's superior KO/camp game would be more beneficial in the end.
for a long while, I've believed Mario does better vs peach than doc. peach is good at floating right above pill height, while jump fireballs do a much better job at controlling her. Mario's f.smash also outranges everything she has, and seems to be a really big issue for her, plus he can KO her w/ upsmash earlier. and since peach breaks outta combos easily w/ nair, mario's slightly faster shuffles can often make the difference. walking away/WD back f.smash is probably the most important though. Doc's better d.smash isn't that useful vs peach, between her aerial-to safe pressure and punishing crouch canceling. Without that, finding doc's f.air can be pretty tricky to land on her.
i think mario does better vs several characters. but excluding low tiers...captain and probably falco and ice.
mario's f.smash is much more devastating (and easy as pie) to combo into: upthrow/uptilt/upair/etc..to f.smash on falcon/falco is early, reliable damage that gets them off stage. Not that doc cant do similar, but his tools don't combo as cleanly and lacks ability to sneak in a f.smash at the crucial mid-percents (before it gets harder to combo) plus mario's n.air works to his advantage against said fastfallers to position for edgeguarding. and nana gets ***** by mario's f.smash.
mario's cape in stalling/recovering isn't respected enough. Ignoring the height gain, the ability to use it twice- before losing original height, gives him more options in situations by the edge...and its further reaching hitbox means it can be used slightly earlier/safer than doc's, while still hitting low enough to reverse would-be sweetspotters.
i think mario does better vs several characters. but excluding low tiers...captain and probably falco and ice.
mario's f.smash is much more devastating (and easy as pie) to combo into: upthrow/uptilt/upair/etc..to f.smash on falcon/falco is early, reliable damage that gets them off stage. Not that doc cant do similar, but his tools don't combo as cleanly and lacks ability to sneak in a f.smash at the crucial mid-percents (before it gets harder to combo) plus mario's n.air works to his advantage against said fastfallers to position for edgeguarding. and nana gets ***** by mario's f.smash.
mario's cape in stalling/recovering isn't respected enough. Ignoring the height gain, the ability to use it twice- before losing original height, gives him more options in situations by the edge...and its further reaching hitbox means it can be used slightly earlier/safer than doc's, while still hitting low enough to reverse would-be sweetspotters.
yeah ive always thought that mario was better vs peach than doc is, at least for me. i used to play someone who mained peach, and my doc would go even with him but i could beat him pretty consistently with mario. maybe im just better with mario, but the main reason i like mario better vs peach is because i can stop peach's float canceled fair approach, or any approach of hers with fsmash, as well as out-camp her. i dont think i could do this as well with doc's ftilt. also the extra speed is nice. i like mario against falcon a lot too, but doc's upthrow -> fair-> kill is really useful against falcon, where as mario can have a tough time killing falcon
yeah it wasnt til after last summer that i started messing around with mario and for a while i thought i was better with mario. my movement and character control was much better with mario for some reason, although that isnt the case anymore. it was kind of weird haha
Max?
Smash Champion
I'm currently of the opinion that Mario is completely obsolete in comparison to Doc. I'm looking for someone to prove me wrong.