I think it was the Brawl + FAQ thread rofl.
-
Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!
You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!
COMPETITIVE Brawl+: Code Agenda
- Thread starter kupo15
- Start date
MBlaze
Smash Champion
I personally don't want it either but it seems like it's gonna get in so we need to agree on something in case that happens.
MBlaze
Smash Champion
The code that automatically freeze the two stages Ps2 and Warioware is in this:
http://www.codecrater.com/misc/kupos_brawl+/Brawl_.txt
plasmatorture
Smash Journeyman
It's unreliable. I posted in one of these threads in more detail about it, but basically each stage seems to have a random compatiblity list of characters it will freeze for, and even then it doesn't consistently freeze. For instance, Warioware does not work if P1 is Kirby, Fox, Snake, Sonic, Olimar, or Toon Link (might be another one or two I forgot). Green Greens doesn't work for Captain Falcon even though other stages worked for him. etc.
It just isn't consistent.
Also, I don't think the freezing stage code is that important (as awesome as it is). While in Brawl-, you don't want to use custom stages because distribution of them would be tricky, with Brawl+ everyone is already downloading stuff so it's just one more step to get some custom neutral stages we like. Once we get closer to the codes being finalized, I will be pushing very hard for custom stage support.
KayJay
Smash Ace
Pushback is good in my opinion as it screws overusing defensive shieldgrabs.
1.3 fallspeed feels funny for comboing but i think it really is too much, for example Link can catch almost everybody into an easy jablock like Jab 2x -> (jab cancel) up tilt -> jab lock.
D
Deleted member
Guest
hmm ok, I never eally used link much and I might miss some other things too.
also a button activated stage spee code can be used ingame so jumping in this case will change level speed, in other words, useless.
also a button activated stage spee code can be used ingame so jumping in this case will change level speed, in other words, useless.
Eaode
Smash Champion
KayJay
Smash Ace
You can't DI out of this, i think it's possible to techroll, but you have to be lucky if you succeed.
kupo15
Smash Hero
I have to disagree because can lead to the game rewarding sloppy approaches. If you are sloppy on your approach, you should be shield grabbed and with the current push back this is greatly reduced not to mention it being a little harder to shield pressure. You can still pressure shields without getting shield grabbed, but you need to be good with your approach though.
@paprika: Any luck with testing non elemental attacks for hitlag?
D
Deleted member
Guest
mwah, not really I get different values every new search and they almost always lead to garbage values.
also I tried finding how the last part of the hitstun code actually fits into the hitstun state, since it would be the same principle, but no luck on that either
also I tried finding how the last part of the hitstun code actually fits into the hitstun state, since it would be the same principle, but no luck on that either
kupo15
Smash Hero
do you think comparing results from different character's moves of the same elemental kind would help or is that what you have been doing? And when you find values, how do you poke them to tell a difference? I assume higher value so that the hitlag is long? Maybe ask pw.. T_T
D
Deleted member
Guest
yeah I could ask PW on this since I'm stuck, but I have some friends coming over in a couple days and we're (obviously) gonna play brawl+ and I need to find the right values for some codes before that, and actually practice a bit or one of the 2 is gonna **** me, even though he never played brawl+.
xicsrh
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Nov 3, 2008
- Messages
- 54
You could try asking spunit262, the person who made that code.
Blank Mauser
Smash Champion
Quick question since I'm like, out of the loop here. Is there any way to add more than 256 lines of codes yet? Thanks.
Also the number at the bottom right lies. I really can't export my GCT file unless I have 253 lines of code. D:
Also the number at the bottom right lies. I really can't export my GCT file unless I have 253 lines of code. D:
Unless the Wii has a way to add more RAM, there will never be more than 256 lines of coding.
kupo15
Smash Hero
This number will never change
Starscream
Smash Ace
I do not agree.
If you feel that 0 buffering is screwing you up then you're the one that's playing sloppily, simple as that. I think that should be the way it is.
You can't say for sure that buffering is going to be in anyways. If you don't want it then encourage more people to play with no buffering for an extended amount of time. Initially it's going to feel weird since you're so used to the lenience of the old buffer but you'll eventually find it so much more precise. It's the same feeling as when you go back to Melee after not playing it for months, it doesn't mean that Melee was sloppy, just means that you are. Buffering encourages sloppy play and can cause fatal mistakes. It's awful.
Exactly, get that sh*t outta here.
Learn to tech. I've been playing 1.35 ever since the downward grav code came out and Link isn't "funny" at all.
I want 1.35 to be the standard but I know it's not going to work unless a vertical knockback modifier is found. I've been using 1.065 damage ratio mod to unnerf vertical attacks and it's fantastic even if it does buff horizontal attacks a bit. I've been playing with these settings since it came out though so I don't even notice the buff anymore. I encourage people to try it before going nuts against high gravity. 1.35 downward grav with 1.065 damage ratio mod. The pace of the game is faster, more fun. You won't be dissapointed.
Dan_X
Smash Lord
So, I played for the past few hours with 0buffer. At first it was awkward, but now it's much better. I love it, it's definately better than vanilla Brawl. There's more control. I don't think there should be any buffer window at all, not even 3 frames. Perhaps that's just me. One can still pule off the same combos and attacks as before, but it may take just a tad of practice. I was afraid Falco's shdl would be far more diffuclt, though, the timing remains relatively the same. All in all, it takes more skill to play as any given character, as you need to know how long their animations are.
kupo15
Smash Hero
And this is what we are after. I will be playing shortly with 0 buffer also so I will provide feedback as well. With my limited testing of 3 frames in training modes, it seemed as if I could SH nair with a greater horizontal speed than before as falcon. My eyes could have been deceiving me
KayJay
Smash Ace
0 Buffer = no autocancels = no thanks.
What does 0 Buffer offer me? No suicide? I never suicide with buffer, I really can't understand all that whine, the first time I played Brawl i was so satisfied how you could instantly performe an arial attack off the ground, and now the almost only thing where Brawl does a better job than Melee you want to screw that. I really can't understand that, it sounds like you all do suicide all the time and then say it's the buffers fault, all i have to think is wtf.
What does 0 Buffer offer me? No suicide? I never suicide with buffer, I really can't understand all that whine, the first time I played Brawl i was so satisfied how you could instantly performe an arial attack off the ground, and now the almost only thing where Brawl does a better job than Melee you want to screw that. I really can't understand that, it sounds like you all do suicide all the time and then say it's the buffers fault, all i have to think is wtf.
thesage
Smash Hero
Woah, autocanceling is really easy. Why do you need a buffer to do it? just sh and attack.
Eaode
Smash Champion
This is false
0 buffer in NO way take out AC-ing. it does, however, make the game much more precise. Please learn to time your moves correctly before jumping to conclusions.
Also, yes, this means SH-> Aerial instantly in Melee was possible too.
Seriously, the crouch-before-jumping animation is on avg 5-6 frames anyway(know this from Melee, may be slightly different in Brawl, but definitely not lower), which gives you time to go input the aerial you want. Buffering is unnecessary, and clinging to it so you can do one specific thing easier and sloppier is not really proper justification.
Blaze Dragon
Smash Rookie
- Joined
- Dec 6, 2008
- Messages
- 4
Put a code where theres no tripping? 
It's like the first code that came out. Not to be mean, but you could actually try to gaze at the code list on the OP.Put a code where theres no tripping?
wazgood
Smash Ace
wow check 1st page plzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzPut a code where theres no tripping?
My opinion on everything:
Hitstun is largely dependent on fallspeed and other mechanics. I'll give my value of choice after explaining all the other settings I think we should use.
Fallspeed, IMO, doesn't need to be any higher than 1.15, and I currently play 1.125 and it's perfectly fine. A tad faster, you know, so you can do a few more shffl's here and there, but it doesn't cause recovery or edgeguarding problems. Being able to offstage edgeguard without dying because you fall to fast to do even a single move is rather important I think.
Dash canceling, like I said yesterday, is a must. It creates options, improves mobility, even gives some characters a whole new type of approach game. That's such a definitive bonus that I can't believe some of you are overlooking this amazing code. It'll go right alongside dash dancing as Must-haves when we get it.
Fast edges I like, but it's operation seems sporadic to me. Maybe I'm just not used to it, or it could be my tv. I'm in favor of keeping it though.
No ASL I'm still on the fence about. I like that Sheik's recovery gets brought up (or everyone else's gets brought down, rather) to par, but some just don't work too well. Diddy's recovery is potentially a nightmare. While that might work out well in the end since he seems to have gotten quite the buff from other codes, I don't like having a character singled out and forced to try to recover above the stage or die. There's no margin of error on his recovery at all. If you hit the wall, you're done. I spent nearly an hour trying to recover safely and the best I could manage was skimming right over the edge so I could hope to not get hit by someone trying to get me. Actually sweetspotting in the traditional sense of getting the rockets to run out right at the edge seems impossible outside of dumb luck to me at this point.
If we're mostly all agreed that the default buffer is too interfering, and the code is glitchy on any setting besides all or none, then that's the only option: It should be on 0. We had to get good at move timing without buffering in Melee, we can do it in Brawl. I didn't like it for about 3 hours, then yesterday it felt right as rain.
I don't see any problems so far with the sheild stun code. I also like 3/3. Good job.
I've been using my 25% stale moves code and I like it a lot. Kupo, I see you've got it in your codeset, but not in the OP. Would you consider adding it, if not as an endorsement just so people know it's there so they can try it out?
ALC is great, and while I occasionally consider MLC to be a useful feature it's nothing imperative and since it could well come down to code space I think I'd be quite fine just staying as we are.
Now, all of this taken into consideration, I'm of the opinion that hitstun should be somewhere in the neighborhood of 10-10.5%. With DI being what it is, very little hitstun would work, but I think everyone would like it more with just that little extra bit. When you take all my other settings - 1.125 fallspeed, 25% stale moves, etc. - and then factor in things like good DI then I think that 10% is probably a good value to use, or at least to start testing from.
Ok, so my current setup leaves no room for the PT codes, but I think if we can find a balance that suits all players I'm definitely for it. I'll have to do some thinking on how we can accomodate everyone, then we'll look into how possible/feasible it is.
Ok, I think that's all I got. Did I miss any points of contention?
Hitstun is largely dependent on fallspeed and other mechanics. I'll give my value of choice after explaining all the other settings I think we should use.
Fallspeed, IMO, doesn't need to be any higher than 1.15, and I currently play 1.125 and it's perfectly fine. A tad faster, you know, so you can do a few more shffl's here and there, but it doesn't cause recovery or edgeguarding problems. Being able to offstage edgeguard without dying because you fall to fast to do even a single move is rather important I think.
Dash canceling, like I said yesterday, is a must. It creates options, improves mobility, even gives some characters a whole new type of approach game. That's such a definitive bonus that I can't believe some of you are overlooking this amazing code. It'll go right alongside dash dancing as Must-haves when we get it.
Fast edges I like, but it's operation seems sporadic to me. Maybe I'm just not used to it, or it could be my tv. I'm in favor of keeping it though.
No ASL I'm still on the fence about. I like that Sheik's recovery gets brought up (or everyone else's gets brought down, rather) to par, but some just don't work too well. Diddy's recovery is potentially a nightmare. While that might work out well in the end since he seems to have gotten quite the buff from other codes, I don't like having a character singled out and forced to try to recover above the stage or die. There's no margin of error on his recovery at all. If you hit the wall, you're done. I spent nearly an hour trying to recover safely and the best I could manage was skimming right over the edge so I could hope to not get hit by someone trying to get me. Actually sweetspotting in the traditional sense of getting the rockets to run out right at the edge seems impossible outside of dumb luck to me at this point.
If we're mostly all agreed that the default buffer is too interfering, and the code is glitchy on any setting besides all or none, then that's the only option: It should be on 0. We had to get good at move timing without buffering in Melee, we can do it in Brawl. I didn't like it for about 3 hours, then yesterday it felt right as rain.
I don't see any problems so far with the sheild stun code. I also like 3/3. Good job.
I've been using my 25% stale moves code and I like it a lot. Kupo, I see you've got it in your codeset, but not in the OP. Would you consider adding it, if not as an endorsement just so people know it's there so they can try it out?
ALC is great, and while I occasionally consider MLC to be a useful feature it's nothing imperative and since it could well come down to code space I think I'd be quite fine just staying as we are.
Now, all of this taken into consideration, I'm of the opinion that hitstun should be somewhere in the neighborhood of 10-10.5%. With DI being what it is, very little hitstun would work, but I think everyone would like it more with just that little extra bit. When you take all my other settings - 1.125 fallspeed, 25% stale moves, etc. - and then factor in things like good DI then I think that 10% is probably a good value to use, or at least to start testing from.
Ok, so my current setup leaves no room for the PT codes, but I think if we can find a balance that suits all players I'm definitely for it. I'll have to do some thinking on how we can accomodate everyone, then we'll look into how possible/feasible it is.
Ok, I think that's all I got. Did I miss any points of contention?
shanus
Smash Hero
- Joined
- Nov 17, 2005
- Messages
- 6,055
I play with very similar settings as you (barring shieldstun & buffering) and agree 100%. I plan on using almost identical settings and think we are starting to hone in on well agreed upon settings
Starscream
Smash Ace
Fallspeed doesn't NEED to be changed at all but the pace of the game is so much better with a higher value. I've been playing at 1.35 for weeks and I have no troubles recovering or edge guarding. The game feels so much more natural, quicker, and fast fallers can actually be called fast fallers. You could say it feels more like Melee, but that's not inherently a bad thing.
Jiangjunizzy
Smash Lord
i've come to a very hasty (but definitely not definite) conclusion that for bowser to be viable we will need to use some gravity.. his attacks send people too far for him to combo and he's played way too defensively to be effective; shieldstun doesn't help much. w/gravity on he can at least combo some uptilts and some other stuff together..
bowser isn't viable? wtf? lol
MookieRah
Kinda Sorta OK at Smash
@Kupo
Could you put the Hex converter link on the main page? It'll help me out a bit, seeing how it's hard to track down your hitstun thread these days.
Also, Giza or someone posted a code that froze certain stages and reversed others. Was that complete, and if so, it should be placed in the code list.
Could you put the Hex converter link on the main page? It'll help me out a bit, seeing how it's hard to track down your hitstun thread these days.
Also, Giza or someone posted a code that froze certain stages and reversed others. Was that complete, and if so, it should be placed in the code list.
zxeon
Smash Lord
I play at 1.3 fall speed and I love it. Even if vertical K.O.s get nerfed it's not that big a problem. God forbid you have to hit your opponent one time more than normal to K.O. them off the top of the screen.
Jiangjunizzy
Smash Lord
yes. in regular brawl he's good because there aren't many combos and he relies on his out of shield attacks. in brawl+ there are combos; something he lacks because his attacks send too far. with shield stun his out of shield attacks will be less effective.
Jiangjunizzy
Smash Lord
ran into a bug that makes it so that you can't use assist trophies. they're stuck to your hand and you can't drop em. not sure what causes it :S
Shell
Flute-Fox Only
- Joined
- Feb 7, 2007
- Messages
- 2,042
Although bowser doesn't benefit much from the hitstun, many characters don't. He still has attacks with decent range, priority, and good killing power. Don't bend over backwards to make a character that can't easily combo do so, or you will break the ones that can do it easily.
With that said, though, I still enjoy 1.25 - 1.30 downwards gravity and 9% hitstun.
Edit: In addition, it's not like the other codes aren't helping him.
ALC makes a world of difference with Bowser
You may not have known it, but Bowser is a beast at edge guarding. No ASL helps enhance this.
With that said, though, I still enjoy 1.25 - 1.30 downwards gravity and 9% hitstun.
Edit: In addition, it's not like the other codes aren't helping him.
ALC makes a world of difference with Bowser
You may not have known it, but Bowser is a beast at edge guarding. No ASL helps enhance this.
I wrote a code that froze specific ones, and it is listed in the OP. What is (quite inconveniently) missing is a list of level IDs. I had a nicely formatted list somewhere, but I misplaced it in this or the other thread.
Magus420
Smash Master
This isn't really true. Some things are literally made impossible without buffering, and others become not realistically viable as an option without it.
For impossible things, one example is you can't jab cancel nearly as quickly with some characters. It is impossible to tap down in 1 frame to duck, and then immediately on the very next frame already have the stick back to neutral while pressing A to jab again. With a few frames of buffer, you can tap down to buffer the crouch, then when the duck occurs shortly afterwards you can have the stick back to neutral to be able to do the jab.
Many other things that have close to 0 frames of room for error to perform would essentially become unviable. I could try to give an example I know of like Luigi can Jab -> D-Tilt/D-Smash/Up-B/D-Tilt/Jab in normal Brawl which has 0 frames of error depending on the character or they can shield in time, but those may not even work in Brawl+ anyway since they're dependant on fall speed. Whether that's a relevant example here or not, I'm sure there are other existing and also new setups/combos unique to Brawl+ to be found that also would require absolute perfect timing to work. While those things would certainly still be possible to perform with 0 buffer, many would become no longer useful overall because of how close to impossible it is to hit a 1/60th sec timing reliably enough to justify even using it in the first place.
Does removing it require considerably more skill in timing your moves compared to the normal and very lenient 10 frame window? Of course. Compared to a 3/4 frame window? A difference yes, but it goes from frame perfect timing (and borderline of what's even consistently possible) compared to loose timing, to frame perfect compared to very good timing. Now, all other things equal I would say the no buffering would be a little better, as there is indeed a bit of a difference in required timing/skill compared to a small buffer window. However, is the small difference of 'very good timing' to 'extreme and flawless' timing to perform something also worth removing some good options, as such consistent perfection isn't even attainable and for some things even possible to input otherwise at all?
People are saying you should have to just learn to time your attacks better and to remove the buffer entirely, because the buffer system can sometimes cause you to do some things you didn't want to do if you don't use the system properly. The same can be said in reverse. In keeping a small buffer still in place you should put more effort into learning how to control the buffer system better, such as inputting overtop of an action in the buffer queue if necessary, and also using the buffer to your advantage. It was possible before and should be even less relevant with a small window (assuming the code works as it should be).
I'm fairly sure there isn't anything you can do without a buffer window that you can't do with it. There are, however, a number of otherwise good options that are removed by scrapping the buffer system completely.
Starscream
Smash Ace
You could see it that way... or you could see it in the way that if you could only perform something consistently with the help of a poorly implemented buffer system then you shouldn't be able to do it consistently at all without a lot of practice.
Eaode
Smash Champion
The argument that some mechanics will change doesn't really hold water when the whole project's purpose is to change the mechanics of the game <_<