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COMPETITIVE Brawl+: Code Agenda

leafgreen386

Dirty camper
Joined
Mar 20, 2006
Messages
3,577
Location
Playing melee and smash ultimate
You could see it that way... or you could see it in the way that if you could only perform something consistently with the help of a poorly implemented buffer system then you shouldn't be able to do it consistently at all without a lot of practice.
I have an idea! Let's give all the frame perfect techs to mid tiers! Seriously, finishing an aerial before you reach the ground should not be as technical as doubleshining. A game should not be needlessly technical. We've already been over this before - adding tech skill for the sake of adding tech skill gets us nowhere. Sure, requiring a certain amount of tech skill is fine, which lowering the buffering system would provide. But when you turn something that was once commonplace (and not broken by any means) into something that can only be done with a large amount of practice, that's going a bit too far. A game should be about how you use your moves, not if you can use them. The buffering system adds options if you can control it, and should remain in the game in some form.
 

Starscream

Smash Ace
Joined
Oct 22, 2006
Messages
636
Location
Burnaby, BC
I have an idea! Let's give all the frame perfect techs to mid tiers! Seriously, finishing an aerial before you reach the ground should not be as technical as doubleshining. A game should not be needlessly technical. We've already been over this before - adding tech skill for the sake of adding tech skill gets us nowhere. Sure, requiring a certain amount of tech skill is fine, which lowering the buffering system would provide. But when you turn something that was once commonplace (and not broken by any means) into something that can only be done with a large amount of practice, that's going a bit too far. A game should be about how you use your moves, not if you can use them. The buffering system adds options if you can control it, and should remain in the game in some form.
Well double shining isn't in Brawl nor do I think auto canceling Ganon's dair without buffering is as technically demanding.

But you say does hold truth, but the buffer system does interfere with the ability to do other things, not to mention it makes you do things that weren't intended. I, and many others just enjoy the game far more without it.
 

GameSystem

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jan 1, 2008
Messages
314
You guys are forgetting about hitstun when you think of all the stuff that needed buffering before. In normal brawl, you needed the 0 frames of error because there was no hitstun and they could get out easy. With hitstun, you have TONS of time to do your move. Luigi d-tilt to up b I can do with my eyes closed. It's retardedly easy now. You don't even have to get perfect timing for jab cancels. The jab stuns them enough for you to do whatever.
 

Eaode

Smash Champion
Joined
Jun 4, 2006
Messages
2,923
Location
Glen Cove/RIT, New York.
I have an idea! Let's give all the frame perfect techs to mid tiers! Seriously, finishing an aerial before you reach the ground should not be as technical as doubleshining. A game should not be needlessly technical. We've already been over this before - adding tech skill for the sake of adding tech skill gets us nowhere. Sure, requiring a certain amount of tech skill is fine, which lowering the buffering system would provide. But when you turn something that was once commonplace (and not broken by any means) into something that can only be done with a large amount of practice, that's going a bit too far. A game should be about how you use your moves, not if you can use them. The buffering system adds options if you can control it, and should remain in the game in some form.
We're not saying we should make everything "needlessly technical". What Magus brought up about frame-intense stuff like Jab-canceling is a good point, but it's kind of moot for the sloppy buffer system to be held onto because of a few little specific techniques (The ones Magus brought up really being the only real conflicts of this nature; Auto-canceling is nowhere near too technical w/o buffer).

Yes some mechanics will change. Some will become difficult to the point of being mastered by those who have the ability to do so, it's like a consolation prize for getting good at the game (like the crazy **** that Melee pros do that become highlights of combo videos). This shouldn't be feared; this kind of depth is what will make Brawl+ sweet for years to come.

I'm not saying that no buffer is the be-all-end-all only way to go, and I'm glad that it's seeing healthy debate. All I'm saying is that using a few small techniques isn't really a valid argument for keeping the sloppy, universal buffer system.


EDIT:
You guys are forgetting about hitstun when you think of all the stuff that needed buffering before. In normal brawl, you needed the 0 frames of error because there was no hitstun and they could get out easy. With hitstun, you have TONS of time to do your move. Luigi d-tilt to up b I can do with my eyes closed. It's retardedly easy now. You don't even have to get perfect timing for jab cancels. The jab stuns them enough for you to do whatever.
This should also be taken into account.
 

Dark Sonic

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 10, 2006
Messages
6,021
Location
Orlando Florida
A 3-4 frame buffer window is actually very small (less then the startup lag of Fox's jump in melee if you need a comparison) and really wouldn't even be noticeable unless you were purposefully trying to use it. Many fighting games have a buffering system and it doesn't really cause problems most of the time. Hell, wake up supers and dragon punches would be impossible without the buffer system in many games.

Buffering is not a flawed system in itself, it is only the extremely long buffer window (and how the game reads holding the control stick as an input for some reason) that is causing problems. These problems can be fixed without removing buffering entirely.
 

Dan_X

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 14, 2008
Messages
1,335
Location
Boston, MA
If I were to implement a smaller buffer window to test, what should it be? Is 3 too few? Also, for a buffer window of 3frames, would I just type "3" in place of the Xs?
 

Dark Sonic

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 10, 2006
Messages
6,021
Location
Orlando Florida
Yeah, a 3 frame buffer window definitely seems small enough to not cause any problems, but still large enough to be feasible (I believe SHDL has a 3 frame window for error in melee or something close to that and people still manage to do it).
 

GameSystem

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jan 1, 2008
Messages
314
The only problem with 3 is that some people reported a glitch where some moves would repeat. Someone else mentioned that this glitch may be caused by an odd number of buffer frames. That's why people just picked 0 and stayed with it. Also, if you practice low, you can easily switch to a higher buffer amount since you already have the practice.
 

Shell

Flute-Fox Only
Joined
Feb 7, 2007
Messages
2,042
I don't believe there was much scientific merit to the hypothesis that odd frame numbers cause glitches. However, as I've said, 4 frames has worked for me so far.
 

SketchHurricane

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 21, 2008
Messages
669
Location
Winter Park, FL
This isn't really true. Some things are literally made impossible without buffering, and others become not realistically viable as an option without it...

...I'm fairly sure there isn't anything you can do without a buffer window that you can't do with it. There are, however, a number of otherwise good options that are removed by scrapping the buffer system completely.
His whole post was right on the money. Seriously, what's with this hardcore attitude about buffering? You guys do realize the buffering is in virtually every fighting game out there, right? You know how ridiculous a game like Street Fighter would be without buffering? Would you take the same hardcore attitude about removing buffering from a game like that? If you said no, then there is no reason you should support 0 buffer in Brawl.

You could see it that way... or you could see it in the way that if you could only perform something consistently with the help of a poorly implemented buffer system then you shouldn't be able to do it consistently at all without a lot of practice.
What? Great, let's all become frame perfect because if you aren't, then you have no business attempting certain moves. As poor as the buffering system is, the solution is not to axe buffering - The solution is to improve the window. People aren't robots, this is a game, not a timing drill.

A 3-4 frame buffer window is actually very small (less then the startup lag of Fox's jump in melee if you need a comparison) and really wouldn't even be noticeable unless you were purposefully trying to use it. Many fighting games have a buffering system and it doesn't really cause problems most of the time. Hell, wake up supers and dragon punches would be impossible without the buffer system in many games.

Buffering is not a flawed system in itself, it is only the extremely long buffer window (and how the game reads holding the control stick as an input for some reason) that is causing problems. These problems can be fixed without removing buffering entirely.
My thoughts exactly.

Ganon's dair AC is not easy at 0 buffering, and I'd go as far to say that at 0, it's not even a viable tactic period. Jab canceling is slower at 0 buffering, and something like this is actually counter productive to Brawl+ in that it actually slows down a mechanic. Matter of fact, removing buffering slows the game down as a whole, seeing as how there's going to be a lot more errors in an environment that demands frame-perfect input. Stuff that gave you instant results nearly every time are now going to either fail completely (resulting in you standing there doing nothing for a second because you tried to be perfect), or be slower (because you played it safe and waited until after the first available input frame).

0 buffering is a bad idea in the same way that S-cancel was. Completely removing a system/mechanic from the game is a bad thing, from a design standpoint, a functional standpoint, and especially for transition's sake, which we all seem to think is important. Why do you think people are just now realizing that NoASL might need to be tweaked with a modifier? The game wasn't designed with NoASL in mind and undesirable things start to happen when it's completely removed (like Diddy's recovery, as mentioned in another post).

BTW, did anyone else notice that B reversals and the like seem unaffected by the buffer mod?
 

kupo15

Smash Hero
Joined
Mar 14, 2008
Messages
7,002
Location
Playing Melee
and its really short also.

Btw, I just finished playing.....I LOVE 0 BUFFER! It took 30 mins to get used to but I LOVE it! I report glitches in 2 and 3 frame buffers btw
 

GPDP

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 29, 2008
Messages
927
Almost! He needs better air speed..every does
Yeah, I got carried away a bit there lol.

Not just Falcon, though. Everyone so far has amazing mobility now. You should see freakin' Ganondorf!

Oh yeah, and the lagless edges code works nicely. He just sped up the animation, right? It really doesn't look odd at all. The biggest bonus, of course, is the extra lines.
 

Dan_X

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 14, 2008
Messages
1,335
Location
Boston, MA
Okay, I've tested Buffering at 4, because I heard 3 was glitchy. Guess what? 4 is also glitchy! From the data being tossed around, it seems that any number aside from 0 yields glitches. So either the code has to be modified in some way, to work with a smaller buffer window, or 0 is the only way to go. I'd like a smaller window, 3 frames perhaps. By glitchy I mean to say that it would repeat moves that I'd do, randomly almost. It ruined the game, unplayable even. It doesn't happen incredibly often, but it does happen multiple times per match... and it feels really odd. It can kill you because it can mess up your jumps, you may double jump when you don't want to-- it sucks.

I'm moving down to zero until this is resolved.

• Also, the hold L to freze level simply doesn't work. I used player one slot, held L on the level select screen when choosing a level, and no success. It'd be great if this worked! :)

•DashDance!! OMG Thank God I checked back when I did, I was literally on within the past hour-- just before these updates! My friend is sleeping over, so we can play with them now!

Thanks hackers!!
 

SketchHurricane

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 21, 2008
Messages
669
Location
Winter Park, FL
Oh yeah, and the lagless edges code works nicely. He just sped up the animation, right? It really doesn't look odd at all. The biggest bonus, of course, is the extra lines.
It just bought us 30 lines :bee:

But it's not quite as lagless as the others, from what I can tell. I can deal, unless it's easy to edit...

Quick and dirty DD demo of a handful of characters coming. Not everyone, but I can take requests.

edit: Snake, Bowser, Mario, Ganon, Fox, Falcon, DDD, MK
 

kupo15

Smash Hero
Joined
Mar 14, 2008
Messages
7,002
Location
Playing Melee
It just bought us 30 lines :bee:

But it's not quite as lagless as the others, from what I can tell. I can deal, unless it's easy to edit...

Quick and dirty DD demo of a handful of characters coming. Not everyone, but I can take requests.
Sorry forgot to add that you can mod the speed
 

GPDP

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 29, 2008
Messages
927
How exactly do you modify it? Is the number in yellow in the code the number of frames?
 

WeirdoZ Inc.

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Nov 14, 2008
Messages
165
Location
Melbourne, Australia
Tested both new dash-dancing and lagless edge codes. Dash-dancing works exactly as it's supposed to as far as I know (never done it before, had to research it first), and doesn't take away Squirtle's advance techs. Lagless edges also seems to work well, assuming I'm correct in thinking that it's doing an action after grabbing an edge faster than the norm?

To SketchHurricane: I can confirm DD for Squirtle and Peach
 

zxeon

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 11, 2006
Messages
1,476
Location
Indianapolis, Indiana
OMFGDATHDANTHING!ICANTHBELITHIMDATHDANTHINGINBRAWl!PIBOTHSMATSHISCHBACTHBITSHETH!

*Wipes foam from mouth and takes a deep breath*

This code is very good
 

Osi

Smash Ace
Joined
Jul 1, 2007
Messages
580
Location
In a dream
Cool! Can someone put together a vid of a few characters dash dance? I definitely want to see falcons! >_<
Omg I can't wait to see.... **** I forgot to bring one of my SD cards home.... no update for me till tomorrow. I can't wait for sketch to post some vids!
 

CyberGlitch

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Nov 13, 2005
Messages
450
Location
Wisconsin
Sketch, you MUST get Wario's DD on video. Falcon is also a natural choice.

Great work guys!

As far as the buffering code goes, I'm one for keeping a smaller window of buffering in the game if possible (3-5 frames), but if the code is causing disruptive glitching at those settings I'll have to reconsider 0 (unless a fix is released for 3-5). There is must testing to be done.

I haven't caught much talk on a shield stun code, has it really been run over to find the possible best values?
 

Dan_X

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 14, 2008
Messages
1,335
Location
Boston, MA
I'm guessing it's the speed of the animation, which is listed there as 2 (40000000) and would cut it in half. Maybe try 4, which would be 40800000?
Has any1 tested this value? I'd like it to be as fast as it was before because I thought it was great! I'll try this value, think it will work?
 

SketchHurricane

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 21, 2008
Messages
669
Location
Winter Park, FL
Has any1 tested this value? I'd like it to be as fast as it was before because I thought it was great! I'll try this value, think it will work?
That actually seems to have made it faster (I tried a value of 1 before I read this, and it didn't seem to do anything). I'll do some ledge-ing in the Wario DD vid.
 

WeirdoZ Inc.

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Nov 14, 2008
Messages
165
Location
Melbourne, Australia
I've tested both values (2 and 4) and I can't really tell much difference between the 2. Though, I'm not entirely sure what I'm looking for. Is it the time between edge grab and the ability to do an action, or the speed of the action itself? Both seem to be as quick for both values, but I could be mistaken.

The problem is that we don't know the context of the value.
 
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