COMPETITIVE Brawl+: Code Agenda

[kupo15]

PW nailed the length of the dash dance right on. However, characters are bigger in brawl than predecessors, so the same length actually feels shorter relative to the size of the player. Does this make sense and does anyone else feel this way? Also, tomorrow I'm going to try MuBa's dash ending animation remover with the new DD code. It should be crazy.

lol thats because the correct dash dance length was already in brawl..we just had to tap into it :razz:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fForK5xSSUI

Some Lagless Edge action in there too

The 8-character montage is processing. Didn't do much other than quick DDing in these, though.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Y9oLJWOp78

Nice! The ledge speed looks fine to me. Do falcon >_<

Is the DDing code easily modifiable in any way, shape or form?

Idk but why?

After playing around with the ledge and DD codes im very happy, those codes work great. Now I dont agree with the 0 buffer, There should be somewhat of a smaller one but I dont agree with 0 it takes away too much. I kno I will get verbally assaulted for this but the buffer code takes away stacking at 0, I think we should go a for a little higher buffer than 0.

Well so far every other buffer value has been glitchy and you can't stack what? 0 buffering is very precise and is a vast improvement in game play by FAR. Its been a while since a code actually felt as good as this one does

Also, I agree that SOME buffer is better than 0 buffer. It just makes the game feel so much more fluid. Doesn't matter how much time you invest practicing with 0 buffer, two things remain true:

1) It does not feel like Melee did.
2) It does not feel right on Brawl.

It just doesn't fit and takes away from, really, the FUN of the game. And, as has been stated before, it cripples the accessibility and adoption rate of Brawl+ because the game will feel like crap to newcomers from Brawl. And remember, we want widespread acceptance in order to get recognition, a scene, and tourneys. 0 buffer just really isn't helping out this project.

Reduce the buffer window, but keep some buffer. I think I'm seeing the consensus of 3-4 frames in the responses?

After 30 minutes at 0 buffer, It was much more fluid than ever before and much more enjoyable than ever before.

In all the complaining people have made against Brawl, I have never heard anyone say that "Brawl is less precise than Melee or 64".
"Precision" was never something people saw as a problem in Brawl.

In fact, almost everyone that complained about the buffer in Brawl complained specifically because of the "got shield pushed off stage and buffer made me die" issue.


Precision is not a problem. No one felt they were being "imprecise" in Brawl. In THEORY, yes you would be more precise with 0 buffer. Unfortunately, in practice, no one has that kind of reflex anyway. You'd have to be a robot.

The end result is that the buffer actually makes you feel MORE precise because every input you enter actually gets recognized and enacted.

Me and my friends felt imprecise. We would actually point out every time buffering messed us up and this happened quite frequently. You don't have to be a robot to do it frame perfect. With enough practice you can do things frame perfectly even in melee. The simple standard moves you do are easily strung together without buffering, buffering only helps crazy techs like wingdashing (which I can still do with no buffering rather easily) and Ganon/falcon AC dair. Falcon doesn't really need dair to be ACed anyway.

You're making it sound like we want you to waveshine repeatedly to make you do things in Brawl+, it's not like that at all. 0 buffer just requires you to be more precise, it's not making things more complicated, it's not adding a huge strain on you. It's not like there are long preset button combos in Brawl like traditional fighters where a small buffer window does help.

And a large part of the L-cancel debate was the fact that you would always want to L-cancel over not L-cancel and the outcome for a failed L-cancel was the same as not attempting to L-cancel. That part of it doesn't apply. The other part of adding unnecessary tech skill kind of does but 0 buffer doesn't make you press extra buttons. It's just making YOU input your actions when they are actually available, not before.

And I wouldn't say execution should NEVER hamper application. If you input something too slow, too fast or just plain sloppily then why shouldn't it hamper the application? You messed up, you pay the price.

Plus I'm just really annoyed by crouch after shffls.
If a really small buffer window makes it into to Brawl+ I won't cry or not play it, but I would just really prefer none at all. It really doesn't make the game slow or not fun at all. It's more fun for me anyways. And Brawl's buffering always annoyed me, I'm just not the kind of person that *****es on forums about these kind of things. Just because you don't see something doesn't mean it isn't there.

Oh yeah, DD is totally awesome. Good job PW. I like the new ledge code too. I've been using the default value posted and it works just fine, why are some people changing it?

What other codes are an absolute necessity in Brawl+? Air momentum, and shorter short hops would be awesome but I wouldn't say are necessities. I think a vertical knockback modifier is though so that people can actually give higher gravity values some consideration without worrying about horizontal attack buffs and vertical attack nerfs. A shield stun without so much push back would be nice too.

EDIT: that sucks about Olimar screwing up the grab release code, I really liked it.

I agree

Edit: ok you're right, my memorys tricked me, you could do instant aerials in melee at 1/4 speed, sorry 'bout that, but the brawl 0 buffer aspect remains true. I even tried to auto cancel ganons dair with auto-fire on 1/4 speed in brawl with 0 buffer, instant aerials don't work, maybe it's the codes fault but as it is now, it's not working like melee.

Never ever ever argue with magus. He will be right and you will be wrong every time.

I agree that we need to be able to shield during dash animation.

I also hate auto fast-falling with D-airs.

Question about the 0 buffer code: Does this affect teching in any way?

It does not affect teching and why would we be able to shield during a DD? DDing from the vids I see already has a buff by being able to use smashes at anytime during the DD...it doesn't need to be more powerful than it is.

 

[Team Giza]

I tried it, it really freezes the game.
Then i tried the older one, it won't freeze the game.

4A000000 8077F780
D2000000 00000007
2C030000 41820010
2C1C0040 40820008
3B800021 60000000
2C030000 41820010
2C1C0041 40820008
3B80000B 60000000
939E0038 00000000

It's longer and different, instead of both characters beeing in the grab release animation, the 1 who got grabbed simple has no grab release animation anymore.

Yeah... I hate that code...

 

[Deleted member]

so I've had some friends over and the 0 is not so bad after all.
(ported some more codes, goto wiird forums)

 

[kupo15]

Isn't it awesome? Takes 30 minutes to an hour to get used to...but man what a difference in precision! ^_^

 

[cobaltblue]

Going back to meta, it would be better if we hold off on trying to make codes to nerf him until we've had a few tournaments to see how he does under B+. Nerfing him this early in the game imo will make the scene look like its being run by a bunch of scrubs who can't overcome challenge (and clearly that is not the case).

 

[MookieRah]

Are you serious cobaltblue? In normal Brawl many people already think he is broken, and if you don't believe that then most everyone would agree that he is far and large the best character in the game and at the least "almost" broken. The brawl+ codes exaggerate things that Meta was already able to do. Hitstun gives him ridiculous combos and makes his off the edge game better due to stun preventing you from recovering as fast. No auto sweetspot, while making his upB recovery hard to use to grab the ledge also gives him an incredible edgeguard game and his >B still works for safely grabbing the ledge. Shield stun just makes his tornado even more ********.

will make the scene look like its being run by a bunch of scrubs

This is a dumb reason to have tournaments that hand free wins to Meta players. For starters, what fighting game scene doesn't already think we are scrubby in some sense? The honest to goodness truth is that most other fighting game communities think this is a silly party game and that having a scene around it is dumb. Ironically Evo and Shoryuken forums advocate all sorts of scrubby rules when they do play our game.

 

[Deleted member]

mookierah is right but, since codes are still coming and we still have to decide on some values I think we should do MK after that.

 

[Team Giza]

A system standard should be made first and then tested thoroughly to figure out what the best nerfs for the characters are. But I can tell you right now, someway somehow meta is gonna get nerfed.

 

[Deleted member]

or just banned

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

Are you serious cobaltblue? In normal Brawl many people already think he is broken, and if you don't believe that then most everyone would agree that he is far and large the best character in the game and at the least "almost" broken. The brawl+ codes exaggerate things that Meta was already able to do. Hitstun gives him ridiculous combos and makes his off the edge game better due to stun preventing you from recovering as fast. No auto sweetspot, while making his upB recovery hard to use to grab the ledge also gives him an incredible edgeguard game and his >B still works for safely grabbing the ledge. Shield stun just makes his tornado even more ********.

This is a dumb reason to have tournaments that hand free wins to Meta players. For starters, what fighting game scene doesn't already think we are scrubby in some sense? The honest to goodness truth is that most other fighting game communities think this is a silly party game and that having a scene around it is dumb. Ironically Evo and Shoryuken forums advocate all sorts of scrubby rules when they do play our game.

mookie, was wondering if the SBR has a generally agreed upon set of codes. a very minor issue right now is more swiftly distributing a standard codeset. since people are more likely to listen to people with colored names and some actual status within the community than people who do not i think it would help if there was an SBR-advocated code list or a mookierah advocated codelist or something. people would feel it was more 'official', if you know what i mean.

 

[Team Giza]

Maybe we should still wait til we get all the codes in before we do something like that. Just over the last couple of weeks, especially after the tournament, most people seem to be running off similarish code sets. Except you and maybe zxeon.

 

[Deleted member]

"the SBR has a generally agreed upon set of codes"

the SBR is not paying much attention to brawl+ I think

 

[Ignatius]

We already had a tournament with him allowed, he may need to be nerfed. Most of the followups I did though were just people missing techs, and DIing poorly though. I don't think it should be a goal to adjust gameplay around people playing poorly.

And MK isn't broken in vanilla Brawl Mookie

 

[kupo15]

We ran the tournament this weekend and I have some feedback.

I actually don't think that shield stun is the deal breaker. I think it is more about shield raise/drop time. That's the real issue here. See, you don't actually have to block an attack to reap the benefits of the instant shield. It is a massive deterrent, and narrows the window in which you can take advantage of attack lag. Shield stun should make the drop time go up, but the fact that the shield goes up/comes down in 1 frame is a huge reason why shielding is so good.

I don't think anyone had a huge problem with the hitstun. Smash DI is nearly essential to getting out of many combos, which is a great thing.

Do either or you guys know why ROBs throw got worse?

------------------------

So yes, I'm not convinced that shieldstun is the fix to the defense problem. It actually may cause more problems than it solves with shield traps and such. Adding a simple delay to raising and falling shields will probably create the best environment.

Yea I agree however, I do feel that shield stun is needed so you can actually use your whole move without getting shield grabbed. I don't see the traps being that bad either and besides, shield stun is only 11 lines anyway so its not that bad. But the instant shield pop ups are really annoying and I believe that shield stun covers the drop lag also. So the only thing would probably increase the shield up timing. That should make auto PSing happen less often

 

[cobaltblue]

Are you serious cobaltblue? In normal Brawl many people already think he is broken, and if you don't believe that then most everyone would agree that he is far and large the best character in the game and at the least "almost" broken. The brawl+ codes exaggerate things that Meta was already able to do. Hitstun gives him ridiculous combos and makes his off the edge game better due to stun preventing you from recovering as fast. No auto sweetspot, while making his upB recovery hard to use to grab the ledge also gives him an incredible edgeguard game and his >B still works for safely grabbing the ledge. Shield stun just makes his tornado even more ********.

This is a dumb reason to have tournaments that hand free wins to Meta players. For starters, what fighting game scene doesn't already think we are scrubby in some sense? The honest to goodness truth is that most other fighting game communities think this is a silly party game and that having a scene around it is dumb. Ironically Evo and Shoryuken forums advocate all sorts of scrubby rules when they do play our game.

All I ask for is proof that he will be without a doubt nub friendly and a guranteed win character. You are already being a bit deceptive in your post as the Vbrawl ban topic shows SBR and the public as a whole were split on the issue with tournament data not favoring either side. I'm sure you've seen the ban topic mookie and can agree that the theoretical fights thrown in it were rarely being lived up to (IE yoshi the anti meta and whorenado inescapable) what was really going on in tournaments. If you look back at melee when it first started, do you think shiek or marth would have been banned had we had the power we do now when the game first started? Judging by the attitude of some posters I say yes.

Furthermore when I was talking about fighting scenes thinking us scruby I meant the people we're trying to win over from Vbrawl. Why would I care what the kof or sf community think if they aren't smashing in the first place?

We already had a tournament with him allowed, he may need to be nerfed. Most of the followups I did though were just people missing techs, and DIing poorly though. I don't think it should be a goal to adjust gameplay around people playing poorly.

And MK isn't broken in vanilla Brawl Mookie

This is the kinda information B+ is going to need if its to be taken seriously. Real data that shows if meta or any other character in B+ is too powerful because of the physics, because the player is too good, or because the character is insta win. Taking the screw to the code at every first sign of trouble will just fragment B+ (hell we have a hard enough time agreeing with what stages should be legal).

Edited: To include Ignatius.

 

[Almas]

Shorthop height code is complete. Paprika, where is the best place for me to dump the variable in memory? Don't want to use a gecko register but need somewhere to save it.

 

[SketchHurricane]

We already had a tournament with him allowed, he may need to be nerfed. Most of the followups I did though were just people missing techs, and DIing poorly though. I don't think it should be a goal to adjust gameplay around people playing poorly.

And MK isn't broken in vanilla Brawl Mookie

I've seen good MKs get waxed by good DDDs. In fact, I saw Seibrik doing just that at the last Gigabits tourney here in FL. But Brawl+ is a different story. We don't need to go through tourneys to know he's even better than before, and benefits more than he gets hurt from B+. In effectively making the best character better, it makes sense to tone him down in return to at least preserve the original gap. It's not too hard to think of the proper way to nerf him, but it will be hard to tell how much of that nerf should be applied. I'm suspecting that most of the B+ enthusiasts are not MK players, so without a tourney it might be hard to see his B+ performance in the proper light.

 

[Deleted member]

Shorthop height code is complete. Paprika, where is the best place for me to dump the variable in memory? Don't want to use a gecko register but need somewhere to save it.

nice

045A9300 3ECCCCCD

that's where the shieldstun variable is stroed, so that +8 should be valid

 

[kupo15]

Shorthop height code is complete. Paprika, where is the best place for me to dump the variable in memory? Don't want to use a gecko register but need somewhere to save it.

Neat! I can't wait for the horizontal air momentum transfer thing! :razz:

 

[MookieRah]

And MK isn't broken in vanilla Brawl Mookie

Iggy, mangz, don't put words in mah mouf. I didn't say he was, I just said lots of people thinks that he is and a lot of others would easily agree that he is the best and close to being broken. I didn't say he was and I don't believe he is myself due to the fact that Meta's haven't completely dominated Brawl in every region.

Overall, Meta is almost too good in Brawl, and Brawl+ magnifies the qualities that makes him that good and the nerfs are extremely minor.

 

[SketchHurricane]

Yea I agree however, I do feel that shield stun is needed so you can actually use your whole move without getting shield grabbed. I don't see the traps being that bad either and besides, shield stun is only 11 lines anyway so its not that bad. But the instant shield pop ups are really annoying and I believe that shield stun covers the drop lag also. So the only thing would probably increase the shield up timing. That should make auto PSing happen less often

I can't imagine any type of shield trap with this much pushback on the code. Shield drop would be useful as an alternative to stun, and that's what would really make traps a possibility. I'd really like to mess with a shield drop code though.

BTW I agree that DDing doesn't need to have the shield option put in. It makes sense to be at risk during a DD, because you are in turn are creating offensive options.

 

[Deleted member]

kupo, can the thread title just be "...last updated (*date*)" ?
codes are released too frequently to put the name of the last in the title

 

[cobaltblue]

I've seen good MKs get waxed by good DDDs. In fact, I saw Seibrik doing just that at the last Gigabits tourney here in FL. But Brawl+ is a different story. We don't need to go through tourneys to know he's even better than before, and benefits more than he gets hurt from B+. In effectively making the best character better, it makes sense to tone him down in return to at least preserve the original gap. It's not too hard to think of the proper way to nerf him, but it will be hard to tell how much of that nerf should be applied. I'm suspecting that most of the B+ enthusiasts are not MK players, so without a tourney it might be hard to see his B+ performance in the proper light.

Don't want to turn this into a meta debate (like we need more) but for the recored I'm a sonic main, Zsmaus second, Samus and as other player. But I'm just looking at the whole thing from a Mknight player's view.

 

[Ignatius]

Iggy, mangz, don't put words in mah mouf. I didn't say he was, I just said lots of people thinks that he is and a lot of others would easily agree that he is the best and close to being broken. I didn't say he was and I don't believe he is myself due to the fact that Meta's haven't completely dominated Brawl in every region.

Overall, Meta is almost too good in Brawl, and Brawl+ magnifies the qualities that makes him that good and the nerfs are extremely minor.

My bad :D skimmed by too fast. In the tournament, I only dropped one match with MK, and that was against Bowser on Shadow Moses. But almost all of my "combos" were just really bad DI, and missed techs that I followed up on. It may be interesting to look at putting a % handicap on MK, as that would also save code lines as well.

But it's hard to say exactly what to change. And how good MK would actually be when others can actually DI correctly and hit their techs.

 

[KayJay]

So the only thing i noticed in difference between the 11 line and 1 line shield stun is not in "weak" or "strong" hits, the 11 line code let's the shield hold longer after you block something so you can't instantly shield grab, it also pushes you back (depending on value)
The 1 line shield stun does only push you back, nothing else (maybe on other values)

They both work on any attack, wether strong or weak hits.

And I want to say thet 8% Hitstun + 1.3 Fast Fall is the best / balanced gameplay feeling i had so far.

 

[Almas]

Short Hop Height Multiplier [Almas, 6 Lines]
045A9304 [COLOR="Yellow"]3F800000[/COLOR]
C285765C 00000004
2C002F20 40820014
3FC0805A 3BDE7304
C3FE2000 EC3F0072
4E800020 00000000

Yellow is Brawl's default. Note that this affects the launch power of the jump - so a small change will give very observable results. Five minute testing suggests that something like 0.85 combined with a very small increase in upwards gravity should probably give reasonable results.

 

[kupo15]

kupo, can the thread title just be "...last updated (*date*)" ?
codes are released too frequently to put the name of the last in the title

sure thing

So the only thing i noticed in difference between the 11 line and 1 line shield stun is not in "weak" or "strong" hits, the 11 line code let's the shield hold longer after you block something so you can't instantly shield grab, it also pushes you back (depending on value)
The 1 line shield stun does only push you back, nothing else (maybe on other values)

They both work on any attack, wether strong or weak hits.

And I want to say thet 8% Hitstun + 1.3 Fast Fall is the best / balanced gameplay feeling i had so far.

Can someone confirm this? I thought that there is no shield stun for weak hits without the 1 liner code. I remember testing the 11 lined code for strong hits and the pushback does not change.

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

Iggy, mangz, don't put words in mah mouf. I didn't say he was, I just said lots of people thinks that he is and a lot of others would easily agree that he is the best and close to being broken. I didn't say he was and I don't believe he is myself due to the fact that Meta's haven't completely dominated Brawl in every region.

Overall, Meta is almost too good in Brawl, and Brawl+ magnifies the qualities that makes him that good and the nerfs are extremely minor.

well the thing is, everyone can play like him now though (although not nearly as fast). every character has access to combos out of grabs, combos out of starters, they can punish unsweet spotted upBs.. shieldstun.. i think metaknight may be brawl's sheik.

 

[Deleted member]

Short Hop Height Multiplier [Almas, 6 Lines]
045A9304 [COLOR="Yellow"]3F800000[/COLOR]
C285765C 00000004
2C002F20 40820014
3FC0805A 3BDE7304
C3FE2000 EC3F0072
4E800020 00000000

Yellow is Brawl's default. Note that this affects the launch power of the jump - so a small change will give very observable results. Five minute testing suggests that something like 0.85 combined with a very small increase in upwards gravity should probably give reasonable results.

if a lower value less launch power?

 

[Almas]

Yes, the value is a multiple of the launch power to use. so 0.8 means you get 0.8x the normal launch power.

I know someone, somewhere wanted this, and it turns out they're both linked to the same segment of Brawl's code:

Short Hop Height/Fast Fall Speed Multiplier [Almas, 9Lines]
045A9304 [COLOR="Yellow"]3F800000[/COLOR]
045A9308 [COLOR="Red"]3F800000[/COLOR]
C285765C 00000006
3FC0805A 3BDE7304
2C002F20 4082000C
C3FE2000 EC3F0072
2C002F5C 4082000C
C3FE2004 EC3F0072
4E800020 00000000

Where Yellow is Brawl's default for short hop height (a lower value corresponds to a lower height, I recommend atleast 0.8 else some characters don't even leave the ground), and Red is Brawl's default for fastfall speed (a higher value corresponds to a faster fastfall).

 

[Deleted member]

nvm this post

 

[Deleted member]

the general fallspeed code already affects FFs, so I don't think we need to have a second modifier for it (it's already pretty fast)

 

[Almas]

Eh, I just thought I'd make both available for those who wanted it. I'm still undecided either way.

I can also modify Dash Speed with this code, I believe - it can be modified to deal with most player-based velocities in the game, as I discovered the first time around. Pretty much everything except knockback and projectile (NOT item) speed is changed. Including resistance to horizontal and vertical motion, although those may be harder to get at.

 

[kupo15]

Edited with the new code.

Wow with these codes being so small, I expect that keeping the run momentum in the air will be short also. So long as it doesn't change air resistance I can't wait for that code xD

 

[Deleted member]

that would be sweet, to adjust horizontal movement

I expect that keeping the run momentum in the air will be short also. So long as it doesn't edit air friction I can't wait for that code xD

why would we need such a code?

 

[kupo15]

that would be sweet, to adjust horizontal movement



why would we need such a code?

Lol, we are talking about the same code paprika. IIRC from discussing this code, every character has an air resistance value (which is why mk is horrible in the air and wario is crazy) so to make characters better in air, it wouldn't be to change this, it would be allowing your ground momentum to carry over to the air and then the air resistance takes affect to keep things balanced. We don't want MK or sonic to travel through the air the same speed as their run.

There are several ways to approach this code and its possible the way I described could be incorrect

 

[Deleted member]

all I was talking about was general movement speed, what you imply makes a difference if the char is on the ground or not.
also you already keep your momentum anyway, what do you think RAR does?

 

[Almas]

A straight out reduction in air resistance would also boost horizontal KOs. I had ideas on how to make jump momentum work but I'm not certain how to do it any more - my previous ideas somewhat relied on the game 'remembering' your previous horizontal velocity, but that isn't how it works.

I'm sure I'll think of something soon enough, though.

EDIT: You don't keep your momentum Paprika - if you do a forward jump you always travel at the same speed. We are talking about a code that would make your initial speed dependant on how fast you were travelling before you jumped.

 

[kupo15]

all I was talking about was general movement speed, what you imply makes a difference if the char is on the ground or not.
also you already keep your momentum anyway, what do you think RAR does?

I think RAR is an oversight that the game forgets to check if your finished or turn or something. But no, I don't believe you keep your running momentum in the air. Look at falcon melee and compare that to falcon brawl. In melee, he is actually faster I think in the air after a run. If he jumps straight up and trys to move, he doesn't go as far. In brawl, when you jump after a run, your air speed instantly changes as if melee falcon did a double jump.

RAR gives the impression that you keep your momentum but you don't retain your speed. I think once you jump, the game instantly changes your momentum to the air momentum or something. I don't think the best way to approach this is purely altering air speed because then everyone will act like wario in the air and that is not what we want.

 

[Deleted member]

I really don't see why we would need such a code.
give me an example of a situation whit the current way this behaves that such a code would fix or improve.