COMPETITIVE Brawl+: Code Agenda

[iSpiN]

I have a question.

Is it possible to have tether grabs have the ability to grab while your opponent is in tumble?

I would like that...

 

[Shell]

Lulzz

Samus and Link would have super fast, mobile grabs with little to no cooldown. Not to mention -- what happens when you grab someone and there's no animation for a mid-air grab?

Sorry, but it would take a lot of work to make it remotely balanced and functional.

 

[Asdioh]

I wouldn't like the stage nearly as much as I do now if hitting the klaptrap wasn't an auto-death most of the time. I loooooooove knocking people into it every 10 seconds. ^_^

:/

It's won me some games, but I really don't like it XD

Reverse the stage.

What..exactly would that do? Make the water go in the opposite direction? O_o

loool

 

[Dark Sonic]

No, he means the ability to grab them while they're in tumble.

Every other grab in the game can do this, allowing every other character to combo into grabs while tether grabs can't.

 

[Shell]

Ah, forgive my misunderstanding. I thought you we're talking about Zairs.

Yes, that should be fixed, if any coders are willing.

 

[spunit262]

Did anyone know that it's possible to tech while ADing!?

 

[Dark Sonic]

^^That's just freakin weird.

 

[GPDP]

Did anyone know that it's possible to tech while ADing!?

I've actually suspected that this may be the case for quite some time. After the No AD During Tumble code was taken off, and with the teching code, I was often able to AD just above the ground, and I would hear the AD sound effect, but then I would tech.

God, Brawl really ****ed teching up big time.

In any case, what this all means is that vBrawl's teching system only allows you to tech during hitstun and while ADing, but apparently only when ADing right out of the tumble. The tumble itself is untechable, which is why you can't tech Ganon's choke, as well as footstools (I believe you cannot AD out of being footstooled. Am I correct?). This also explains why kupo could not tech using the one line tech code, since he most likely was using the No AD During Tumble code.

 

[GHNeko]

:/

It's won me some games, but I really don't like it XD
What..exactly would that do? Make the water go in the opposite direction? O_o

loool

No. It's just make all the hazards not work. So the klap-trap would still pop up, but it'd pass right through you without doing any harm.

And yes. I know about my epic failure. You can sig it if you want. lol.

 

[Shell]

Hey sp unit262, how's the teching code?

Are you trying to fix the 5.0 frame window version, or are you working on the Brawl distance version?
(Any progress with Ganon's choke?)

Thanks!

 

[GPDP]

So I guess now we're faced with a decision. Either we migrate to the one line code, and sacrifice teching out of tumble (perhaps a sufficiently large window could help matters?), or we stay with the current code and allow the choke and footstools to be techable.

What will it be?

Hey sp unit262, how's the teching code?

Are you trying to fix the 5.0 frame window version, or are you working on the Brawl distance version?
(Any progress with Ganon's choke?)

Thanks!

I have some very bad new about the teching code. It looks like fixing it will be vertauly imposible without wrecking the choke. It is normally imposible to tech during the tumble, with is the only reason it isn't techable.

Guess I'll go mess around a bit with the one line tech code. I'll try with a bigger window, such as 30.

 

[spunit262]

I don't think I need to do anything more. The one liner should suffices as you can apparently tech during the AD.

 

[Shell]

Sorry I missed your earlier post, Sp unit262. I'm dropping the ball tonight.

 

[idea]

YOU! You live on tdot as well? I need to meet tdot smashers so I can play Melee and Brawl+.

check the "Greater Toronto Area thread" under North Coast in regional zones.

also look up grmo's "haggweeklies" (yeah, i dunno =P) which are starting up soon (though spots are filled for the first one) and afro chris should be starting up some biweeklies soon too.

on top of that we have smashfests all the time, and a bunch of us have an unofficial smash club at york university on wednesdays.

 

[GPDP]

Alright, just tried a window of 25 frames with the one line code. So far, it works well. Ganon's choke is not techable in the slightest, so that's good. However, you can still get away with holding shield down and being able to tech within the allotted window.

With this window, you can pretty much safely AD shortly before getting to the ground, and you'll tech immediately afterwards. Obviously, that's a bit broken, as basically you can AD, and upon reaching the ground, you can techroll away, allowing you to avoid follow-ups near the ground quite easily. Perhaps the 20-frame window would be more appropriate.

I dunno, guys. What do you all think? Do we stick with the current code, or consider this one instead? Line space is no longer an issue, so now it's all about functionality.

 

[kupo15]

I don't think I need to do anything more. The one liner should suffices as you can apparently tech during the AD.

But what about those who use the no AD during tumble? That code isn't going to be pushed away so easily especially with the new posters that are disappointed to not see it in the plussery set. I guess there is no point in the 1 liner code when the longer one works well and we have no line limit to worry about

 

[spunit262]

Hitbox Property Mod Engine V1.1 [Phantom Wings, spunit262]
C2744930 00000017
3CA08180 80FC0028
81070008 8108FFFC
7C082800 40800098
81080030 80DE0020
5106C00E 80BE0000
50A6821E 80BE0018
50A6442E 80E7007C
80E70038 813E0030
5127C0CE 80BE0014
50A76226 390204CC
85480014 81680004
7D455B79 41820050
7C0A3000 4082FFEC
7C0B3800 4082FFE4
88A80008 90BE0000
88A80009 90BE0018
88A8000A 90BE0020
88A8000B 50A906FE
913E0030 A0A8000C
90BE0014 80A80010
2C05FFFF 41820008
90BE0034 7F66DB78
60000000 00000000

Works on a few more Hitboxes.

But what about those who use the no AD during tumble? That code isn't going to be pushed away so easily especially with the new posters that are disappointed to not see it in the plussery set. I guess there is no point in the 1 liner code when the longer one works well and we have no line limit to worry about

The fact is "No AD in tumble" make teching harder/impossible.

 

[spunit262]

ignore, double post.

 

[GPDP]

What does this code affect?

So kupo, does that mean we let the choke and footstools be techable now, to the detriment of characters that make good use of them?

I think there's gotta be a debate regarding this issue. Perhaps it should warrant its own thread.

 

[spunit262]

It work on some projectiles.

Note that the char id and action id will be wonky for projectiles.

 

[kupo15]

The fact is "No AD in tumble" make teching harder/impossible.

Well, teching in the tumble should be no harder than hitstun which is why the longer code is the better of the two codes

What does this code affect?

So kupo, does that mean we let the choke and footstools be techable now, to the detriment of characters that make good use of them?

I think there's gotta be a debate regarding this issue. Perhaps it should warrant its own thread.

So you'd be willing to make teching stupidly hard again because of techable footstools? The ganon thing is a problem but we need to make every effort in compensating ganon first.

 

[GPDP]

Well, teching in the tumble should be no harder than hitstun which is why the longer code is the better of the two codes


So you'd be willing to make teching stupidly hard again because of techable footstools? The ganon thing is a problem but we need to make every effort in compensating ganon first.

Uh, what. With a sufficiently large window, the one line code makes teching easy as pie. I tested at 25 frames, and it was honestly too easy.

Then again, I don't use the No AD code.

 

[kupo15]

Uh, what. With a sufficiently large window, the one line code makes teching easy as pie. I tested at 25 frames, and it was honestly too easy.

Then again, I don't use the No AD code.

and the 25 liner teching code is just as easy and works perfectly all around and we have no line restriction. Teching from an airdodge? Really?

Then again, I don't use the No AD code.

You should

 

[Almas]

Ta for the update, spunit. Giza noted that some projectiles play nice already (Ice Climbers Ice Block, I believe).

 

[GPDP]

Eh, it's not a big deal to me. I'll go with whichever code the community decides is most appropriate. I do agree that teching out of an AD has the potential for brokenness, so if we can deal with Ganon's choke and footstools in another way, cool beans.

Still, I felt I had to at least set the record straight in regards to the one line code. It does work, as long as you don't use No AD During Tumble. And I got the feeling that behind all the other dismissals you threw at the code, it was ultimately its incompatibility with NADT that really lied behind everything. Just a feeling, though. I'm not accusing you of anything.

 

[spunit262]

Teching from an AD is in Vanilla Brawl.

 

[GPDP]

Teching from an AD is in Vanilla Brawl.

Indeed, but the window is so small that you almost can't tell you're teching out of an AD. With a larger, more manageable window, there is the potential for avoiding followups near the ground, first by ADing, then by teching away immediately upon reaching the floor.

 

[Zodac]

when is this new gecko with more code lines coming out?

 

[Yeroc]

Yeah, I'm in favor of the old code. Teching out of AD looks ********, and I'm willing to sacrifice the guaranteed choke followups for a code that makes the mechanic function like we want it instead of one that just approximates it by *******izing an already horribly wonky mechanism, no offense to spunit or his amazing coding ability. Ganon's choke has already been buffed to compensate for it. 3 of the 4 outcomes of landing the choke have guaranteed follow ups, and the 4th is very close and it's possible to take that one away from your opponent, leading to another choke or worse. Add that I'm still not decided on the NADT code, and the old tech code just makes the most sense to me, period.

 

[Shell]

The old choke had completely guaranteed combo / kill setups. Anything less than that is an undeniable nerf.

However, that doesn't mean we can't use the old 5.0 code and work with it -- Shanus had a good idea of making the choke hit "slip." While this will probably look ridiculous, it could preserve his old setup game.

Do I understand this correctly? -- The actual tripping animation is 19 (?) frames, during which time you're vulnerable. You stay vulnerable until you press a button, at which point you're invincible. My guess is that since you don't have a horizontal direction you'll trip in place. This would be more than enough frames for either an f-tilt or a d-tilt, or you could wait and do the wake up game.

 

[kupo15]

Yeah, I'm in favor of the old code. Teching out of AD looks ********, and I'm willing to sacrifice the guaranteed choke followups for a code that makes the mechanic function like we want it instead of one that just approximates it by *******izing an already horribly wonky mechanism, no offense to spunit or his amazing coding ability. Ganon's choke has already been buffed to compensate for it. 3 of the 4 outcomes of landing the choke have guaranteed follow ups, and the 4th is very close and it's possible to take that one away from your opponent, leading to another choke or worse. Add that I'm still not decided on the NADT code, and the old tech code just makes the most sense to me, period.

I still think the NADT code is worth considering. After using it for weeks, going back to without it just feels wrong and more defensive of a game. We also have been seeing several users I know I've never seen post about their disappointment in this code not making it. Why this is being ignored is beyond me

The old choke had completely guaranteed combo / kill setups. Anything less than that is an undeniable nerf.

However, that doesn't mean we can't use the old 5.0 code and work with it -- Shanus had a good idea of making the choke hit "slip." While this will probably look ridiculous, it could preserve his old setup game.

Do I understand this correctly? -- The actual tripping animation is 19 (?) frames, during which time you're vulnerable. You stay vulnerable until you press a button, at which point you're invincible. My guess is that since you don't have a horizontal direction you'll trip in place. This would be more than enough frames for either an f-tilt or a d-tilt, or you could wait and do the wake up game.

Thats an interesting idea

 

[leafgreen386]

Shell... it won't be that easy. We don't even have the ability to modify the choke right now, unless the updated hitbox code can do throws, or even if it can, the incredible ridiculousness of the MC may prevent it from working. See, the reason that I stated before that I figured would keep the MC from being techable was that the move does not have a launch speed. Neither ganon nor his opponent will have been registered as having launched someone or having been launched if the only move used in the match was the MC. The move has very special properties associated with it, and the only way we're going to be able to fix it is probably to directly edit these properties.

 

[Shell]

Sp unit262 said that he thought throw moves might be edited for effects, but not KB / angle.

I'm open to other suggestions.

 

[V-K]

when is this new gecko with more code lines coming out?

We already have an unlimited code space. oO
With the brawl tweaker you can change the GCT to snapshot files and load the codes from the album.

 

[Revven]

We also have been seeing several users I know I've never seen post about their disappointment in this code not making it. Why this is being ignored is beyond me

Majority > minority.

Let's face it kupo, there's a great majority of players that still are against the NADT code. A small few newcomers to a few other players isn't going to suddenly convert the great majority of the community to NADT. You're better off just begging for it and nagging it to be put in as only a one man army.

Because I don't feel like quoting Shell atm I'm just going to give an idea better than making them slip: Give them ZSS' stun effect, there are currently two stun effects, the one from the shield breaking and the one (I believe) from ZSS' guns. Think about it, Ganon has just ****ing choked you and all you do is fall to the ground? No, you need to be shocked (a.k.a stunned) and stay in place in the air while Ganon spartas you off the stage! It would look SO much better than tripping would. The only question is, would hitlag have an effect on the stun? It's worth experimenting with if it's possible to mess with.

 

[Shell]

I think stun would be a good idea (Waaay more badass ), and it preserves the guaranteed follow-ups, but it doesn't allow for the option of wake-up games, if you so choose, that tripping would preserve. Granted, I rarely go for these compared to the possibility of d-tilt to arial combos, but Goodoldganon is a strong fan of them.

 

[goodoldganon]

ignore this post please

 

[kupo15]

Majority > minority.

Let's face it kupo, there's a great majority of players that still are against the NADT code. A small few newcomers to a few other players isn't going to suddenly convert the great majority of the community to NADT. You're better off just begging for it and nagging it to be put in as only a one man army.

Like you know everyone even those who don't post. Where are your sources for knowing the "majority?" Just because you dislike the code doesn't make you the majority

 

[Revven]

Like you know everyone even those who don't post. Where are your sources for knowing the "majority?" Just because you dislike the code doesn't make you the majority

Way to assume I hate the code when I've barely even tried it out before. =\

The majority? Almost everybody on the IRC and mostly some people who have posted on the boards every now and again. I know half of the people maybe even more than half in the B+broom hate NADT/are against the idea of it.

 

[kupo15]

Way to assume I hate the code when I've barely even tried it out before. =\

The majority? Almost everybody on the IRC and mostly some people who have posted on the boards every now and again. I know half of the people maybe even more than half in the B+broom hate NADT/are against the idea of it.

So you haven't even tried it yet you are giving your opinion on it? That sounds like an excellent plan to me. Everyone who hated the code never gave it a chance. Similarly to the failed gravity attempt back then, people are against higher gravity because we couldn't alter jumps or recoveries which made higher gravity look so bad. This is the main reason why people are reluctant to try it out now because of a predisposition to a poorly implemented gravity adjustment from the past.

Similarly, people tried it for a couple of hours, some not even, it felt new and they didn't want to adjust, took it off and prejudged the code unfairly. This includes some broom members, at least those in it who don't like it because I'm not the only one in the broom to like the code and in fact, we are seeing new faces commenting on a disappointment in not seeing the code in the set. I wish more people who didn't like what they were seeing would speak out more.