COMPETITIVE Brawl+: Code Agenda

[matt4300]

Umm.. lucarios uthrow anyone?

 

[The Cape]

Ah yea. Good call Matt. Haha, I forgot.

We might play with Lucas's throws a bit too, its unsure. Has to have more time to develop.

That will definetly be a high priority move though.

 

[Shadic]

Some other moves that could be tweaked:

Link's F-Smash
Jiggly's Rest
Snake's F-tilt?

 

[spunit262]

Without it every hit box on one move would do have the same kb (if you modify the kb)

 

[Shell]

Are people asking for it to apply a general multiplier to all of the hitboxes linked to an animation?

That could be good, but if we'll have Gecko 1.07b and lines aren't a concern more control is better.

 

[kupo15]

But the if the jump it predicted, the punishment will often times be much worse than if you'd just attempted wiggling out and airdodging, whether you suceed or not. The best option Ganon would have out of jump it to airdodge, assuming the other player knows to approach from below and not come up at his face because Ganon has few options in front of him and has a blindspot underneath. If the jump is predicted and you don't AD out of it in time, you could be offstage with no jumps, ready for a gimp. If you do buffer the AD correctly, you get punished after the animation ends and are in the same situation.

But this is the reward for the aggressor positioning himself purposely in which I don't see a problem. If I take away your option to air dodge and force a jump, I get this reward for doing it correctly. If, however, I position myself poorly for forcing the jump or some other attack, it can backfire because I did a poor job. I have a problem that regardless of how well I attempt to position myself to force you to do what I want, its all for nothing because you can simply air dodge right through me. Then what you will find is a game that promotes defense and little reward for being good at the game.

AD without NAT is the universally safe option. If there are indeed situations where wiggling into AD isn't viable because the time frame required is either too strict or there actually is no chance to preform it, can you prove that jumping into AD or an attack will be anything but the only option available?

You are right in saying that an AD is the universally safe option which doesn't reward the skilled player for properly zoning. From looking at video's, it should be easy to identify what he could have done better to escape. If they take away your AD option and expect you to do something else instead, or if their spacing is off for trying to punish the jump, a jump aerial could turn the tables on them. But this is very situational and you would need to provide videos.

That's a matchup that is already 50-50, or even slightly in Ganon's favor. What about vs a character with greater range than that of Falcon (Ganon's bad matchups)?

Well, regardless of who's favor it is, your side is arguing that Ganon is screwed because he doesn' have any fast aerials or anything to defend himself against fast characters. I don't find that to be the case.

I'm understand what you're saying about getting a buff on offense, but I don't think that justifies a possible defensive nerf.

The more I think about it, the less what I'm proposing is actually a buff to the combo game. I am thinking about it in terms of allocating resources and moving them around so its balanced. Right now I feel that the hitstun based combos is (arbitrary numbers of course) 70% and tumble based combos are 30%. A lot of characters combo better with tumble combos then they do hitstun combos and I feel they are getting shafted in the current code set. So what I'm actually doing is helping out those characters and buffing them (adding tumble codes), while taking from the hitstun comboers and slightly nerfing them (lowering hitstun) to make it 50:50. I'm not adding or taking away anything from the system as a whole, just redistributing and rebalancing the system so its not biased towards the fast, hitstun combo type characters.

If you want NAT included I feel you should be trying to provide evidence that even if there are situations for certain cast members where AD out of tumble is absolutely not an available option that they still have one that won't punish them to an unnessicary degree.
__________________

An "unnecessary degree" of punishment is different depending on the person and can be different. Recovering in this game is still easy to do and you still have unlimited air dodges. If your opponent is skilled enough to block one of your options to force another option, then this is the extra reward he gets. If he fails at doing so, then you get away easy. Punishment I feel is all relative to what your opponent forces you to do and how you react and how creative you are at escaping it. But either way, you got hit and therefore getting punished for getting hit is not broken.

I'd rather a game where both types of comboing are equal so that it takes more skill to combo well rather than have a higher hitstun to allow for really insane combos that are relatively easy to do that don't cater to those who don't combo well from hitstun. I also like how this code fixes Ganon's up b.

We need it mostly for only a few moves like:

MK dair
Sheik F tilt
Pika D throw
MK Shuttle Loop

And thats really it.

There are a couple of moves that act way out of place from the rest of the moveset that I think also need addressing. Two off the top of my head are :

Falcon's side b
Bowser's dash attack

These moves have a high base kb and a low scaling kb and I feel the base kb needs to be adjusted properly. Similarly, there are several moves that have low base kb and low scaling kb in which I feel that the scaling kb should be higher. These moves include:

Zelda's usmash
Pika's Dthrow
Lucario's Uthrow

I have a feeling I might have to make videos because I probably will get resistance, but I hope that isn't the case.

On another note, did you guys know that Ganon's side b in the air is techable?

 

[Almas]

Ah, so for a multiple hitbox move it'll have multiple bubbles. So one ID refers to the first hitbox of the move, another the second and so forth?

 

[Shell]

Do Nairs (and many of the longer Bairs, etc) have one single hitbox set that deteriorates or a set of progressively weaker hitboxes that swap in over time? (I'm guessing the former.)

I'm not really intending on modding any certain sexkicks, more just curiosity, so ignore this if you don't know/have time.

 

[CloneHat]

Kupo, the reason some characters have trouble with hitstun combos is that they're NOT combo characters. They do other stuff. If Falcon couldn't combo, he would be terrible. If Bowser could combo, he'd put like 70% on you in one. Not everyone needs to combo, even though, IMO, it's more fun to combo than hit and run. Brawl combos were hit, and hope your opponent air dodges when you think he will. Getting a combo because my opponent had trouble "wiggling" feels lame, seeing as you're relying solely on people's mistakes; like Brawl, half the battle is the roll of a dice.

 

[spunit262]

Do Nairs (and many of the longer Bairs, etc) have one single hitbox set that deteriorates or a set of progressively weaker hitboxes that swap in over time? (I'm guessing the former.)

I'm not really intending on modding any certain sexkicks, more just curiosity, so ignore this if you don't know/have time.

The Knee and Mario's Nair have 4 hit boxes.

Also I found damage, so should I add it to the KB code?

 

[Mr.-0]

Some other moves that could be tweaked:

Link's F-Smash
Jiggly's Rest
Snake's F-tilt?

Jiggly's rest is a big one. I've never actually gotten it to work. Plus, sakurai nerfed it.

 

[Shell]

@sp unit: Wow, that's a lot of control.

Regarding damage -- If we're not really going to be able to fit it until we have Gecko 1.07b in any form anyways then I say you might as well include it.

 

[Teronist09]

But this is the reward for the aggressor positioning himself purposely in which I don't see a problem. If I take away your option to air dodge and force a jump, I get this reward for doing it correctly. If, however, I position myself poorly for forcing the jump or some other attack, it can backfire because I did a poor job. I have a problem that regardless of how well I attempt to position myself to force you to do what I want, its all for nothing because you can simply air dodge right through me. Then what you will find is a game that promotes defense and little reward for being good at the game.

I don't know if I agree on there being little reward for being more skilled than your opponent, but I see your point. I've always just preferred some of brawls defensive aspects over melee's offensiveness.

Well, regardless of who's favor it is, your side is arguing that Ganon is screwed because he doesn' have any fast aerials or anything to defend himself against fast characters. I don't find that to be the case.

Not fast characters, characters with the range to punish him before he would be able to AD (the two go hand in hand with most of the cast with range, though), either realistically or in a frame perfect situation. Ganon's fastest aerial is uair, the hitbox of which I think starts on the 6th frame, but it doesn't cover below him or much in front. Would Ganon have sufficient time to AD vs someone with range greater than Falcon's?

An "unnecessary degree" of punishment is different depending on the person and can be different. Recovering in this game is still easy to do and you still have unlimited air dodges. If your opponent is skilled enough to block one of your options to force another option, then this is the extra reward he gets. If he fails at doing so, then you get away easy. Punishment I feel is all relative to what your opponent forces you to do and how you react and how creative you are at escaping it. But either way, you got hit and therefore getting punished for getting hit is not broken.

Let's assume they predict you correctly for the entire duration of the string/combo, can you show that there is at least one method of escape other than taking the hit and attempting to get past them?

I also like how this code fixes Ganon's up b.

I wasn't aware it was broken. It was already reasonably hard to punish directly out of dark dive on a consistent basis, and even then most people don't try to. And it's mostly a recovery move, so...

________________________


I think Dark Dive's spike could use some more knockback. Make it something of an option offstage to try anf hit people through the edge.

 

[kupo15]

Not fast characters, characters with the range to punish him before he would be able to AD (the two go hand in hand with most of the cast with range, though), either realistically or in a frame perfect situation. Ganon's fastest aerial is uair, the hitbox of which I think starts on the 6th frame, but it doesn't cover below him or much in front. Would Ganon have sufficient time to AD vs someone with range greater than Falcon's?

I mean it all really depends on the situation. You have to remember than other than MK, aerials don't come out on frame 1. So even though ganon's uair comes out on frame 6 (If that's true), that doesn't necessarily mean that that is how slow or fast it is. You also have to take into account where you get out of hitstun in relation to your opponent, (if they have to make up additional ground to reach you) and you have to take into account their start up lag.

So lets say Marth's fair comes out on frame 4. Ganon's Uair counter to marth attacking is actually 2 frames and not 6 and this is still depending on where ganon gets out of hitstun. For example, he could easily jump and Dair at the same time, both avoiding the fair and spiking marth at the same time. Or he could just uair straight from tumble and the comboer is too far to reach him so he gets hit when attempting to go ahead with the plan anyway. Ganon's nair also comes out pretty fast as well.

Let's assume they predict you correctly for the entire duration of the string/combo, can you show that there is at least one method of escape other than taking the hit and attempting to get past them?

Unless its a true combo, I'm pretty sure I could. I would have to see a video.

I wasn't aware it was broken. It was already reasonably hard to punish directly out of dark dive on a consistent basis, and even then most people don't try to. And it's mostly a recovery move, so...

The problem is that you can AD as soon as you leave the up b humping part so you can DI to the ground, AD which auto cancels and punish him as if it were Vb. This code fixes that.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Not fast characters, characters with the range to punish him before he would be able to AD (the two go hand in hand with most of the cast with range, though), either realistically or in a frame perfect situation. Ganon's fastest aerial is uair, the hitbox of which I think starts on the 6th frame, but it doesn't cover below him or much in front. Would Ganon have sufficient time to AD vs someone with range greater than Falcon's?

Falcon's uair actually has a lot of range...and he's a fast character. You're asking for a lot when you ask to be able to airdodge out of "Falcon" combos. Those kinds of combos are likely the ones that actually rely on hitstun. Those would be the hitstun combo oriented characters.

Let's assume they predict you correctly for the entire duration of the string/combo, can you show that there is at least one method of escape other than taking the hit and attempting to get past them?

Who's predicting who? I believe that if the person comboing predicts the person being combo'd...they should be able to keep the combo going. The person on the offense is constantly trying to position themselves for the sole purpose of limiting your options. That's how strings work. They take away your escape options so that everything left is both predictable and significantly punishable.

Of course if the person getting combo'd is the one that predicts it, then there is always at least one escape option (assuming it's a string and not a true combo). Whether it be jump and airdodge, wiggle and airdodge, attack, fast fall during the tumble, or even just not do anything at all (lol at when the opponent is waiting for something and you just fall), there is something that they can do to escape, and sometimes even punish the other person (though not most of the time. You mostly end up in neutral positions after escaping a string.)

 

[spunit262]

Damage & Launch speed Modifier [Phantom Wings, spunit262]
C2744A04 00000014
90030024 3C008180
815C0028 816A0008
816BFFFC 7C0B0000
4080000C 816B0030
48000008 3960FFFF
814A007C 814A0038
38C204D4 811E0030
8526000C 2C090000
41820048 80E60004
7C083800 4082FFEC
7D20C671 7C005800
4082FFE0 5520043E
7C005000 4082FFD4
A8060008 2C00FFFF
41820008 90030004
A806000A 2C00FFFF
41820008 9003001C
A806000E 2C00FFFF
41820008 90030024
60000000 00000000

Damage & Launch speed Data [Phantom Wings, spunit262]
065A9800 00000010
II00MMMM ZZZZZZZZ
WWWWXXXX YYYY0000
II charactor id
MMMM action id
ZZZZZZZZ collision bubble tag
WWWW Damage
XXXX Knock back increase due to damage
YYYY Base Knock back

 

[Shell]

Awesome, thanks.

Are the values you put in modifiers to the original damage/KB or replacements?

 

[Ulevo]

We need it mostly for only a few moves like:

MK dair
Sheik F tilt
Pika D throw
MK Shuttle Loop

And thats really it.

I still don't understand why we need to modify Meta Knights Dair. This has yet to be properly explained without me shaking my head at the reasons. Also, playing around with Meta Knight has made me question the need for a Shuttle Loop knock back reduction as well. DI really takes away a lot of its use, even if it is better. I'll get some % ranges later in order to help give an idea.

Still, there are plenty more attacks that we can apply this to.

 

[MK26]

I've been told that the present hitlag is perfect, but I seriously think multihit moves with little hitstun go way too fast. I'm not asking for a major change, but i personally think a hitlag of x/2 + 3 would be a good way to slow down multihits without slowing down the flow of the game. Seriously, has anyone seen how difficult it is to DI a ROB or pika Dsmash?

Also, has anyone looked into nerfing snake's utilt somehow? Maybe with the frame speed mod, giving it some more startup lag?

 

[kupo15]

Pika's dsmash is actually not that hard to DI. I can get out in the first hitbox

 

[TommyDerMeister]

My friends complain every time they get hit by all 4 parts of my Snake Nair. They tell me it's hard to DI out of, and I tell them "No, your DI is just too easy for me to predict...and you suck."

 

[leafgreen386]

If you're not getting out of pika's dsmash with ease... then get better. Or stop playing online. Whichever is the problem. I never use pika's dsmash and expect it to actually launch them.

Anyway, spunit... YOU ARE AMAZING. Knockback and damage mod? That is just way too good.

 

[spunit262]

Damage & Launch speed Modifier V1.2 [Phantom Wings, spunit262]
C2744A04 00000014
90030024 3C008180
815C0028 816A0008
816BFFFC 7C0B0000
4080000C 816B0030
48000008 3960FFFF
814A007C 814A0038
38C204D0 811E0030
85260010 2C090000
41820048 80E60004
7C083800 4082FFEC
7D20C671 7C005800
4082FFE0 5520043E
7C005000 4082FFD4
A8060008 2C00FFFF
41820008 90030004
A806000A 2C00FFFF
41820008 9003001C
A806000E 2C00FFFF
41820008 90030024
60000000 00000000

 

[Ulevo]

My friends complain every time they get hit by all 4 parts of my Snake Nair. They tell me it's hard to DI out of, and I tell them "No, your DI is just too easy for me to predict...and you suck."

Do they know how to SDI? It's not hard to get out of Snakes Nair.

 

[Swordplay]

what changed in V1.2????

and About pikas d-smash....I can DI out of in online its so easy. Only good for spot dodgers.

 

[spunit262]

what changed in V1.2????

and About pikas d-smash....I can DI out of in online its so easy. Only good for spot dodgers.

bug fixes...

 

[Shadic]

I didn't know it was possible to get stuck in Snake's Nair.

 

[MK26]

If you're not getting out of pika's dsmash with ease... then get better. Or stop playing online. Whichever is the problem. I never use pika's dsmash and expect it to actually launch them.

:/ maybe i was just surprised at how fast those multihit dsmashes go with changed hitlag

 

[CountKaiser]

Hey, is there any chance that he KB code could be a ghetto fix for people canceling spikes early?

 

[Dark Sonic]

Hey, is there any chance that he KB code could be a ghetto fix for people canceling spikes early?

That would be very bad, considering that altering the knockback would change their on stage uses. They wouldn't send them that much farther after bouncing off the ground, but they'd have ridiculous amounts of hitstun on them due to their higher launch speed. Think about if Ike had time to dair you, jump onto a platform, jump onto another platform, and double jump uair you before you got out of hitstun.

 

[Ulevo]

That would be very bad, considering that altering the knockback would change their on stage uses. They wouldn't send them that much farther after bouncing off the ground, but they'd have ridiculous amounts of hitstun on them due to their higher launch speed. Think about if Ike had time to dair you, jump onto a platform, jump onto another platform, and double jump uair you before you got out of hitstun.

I think that's a tad of an exaggeration, but I do agree that it doesn't seem like an ideal fix.

If anything, I don't have a problem with canceling spikes. I just have three problems as of now with the way the system works:

- You can cancel it way too early
- Its too easy to cancel
- Tap jump is significantly more efficient at it than manual jump with X/Y/Whatever

 

[Teronist09]

I mean it all really depends on the situation. You have to remember than other than MK, aerials don't come out on frame 1. So even though ganon's uair comes out on frame 6 (If that's true), that doesn't necessarily mean that that is how slow or fast it is. You also have to take into account where you get out of hitstun in relation to your opponent, (if they have to make up additional ground to reach you) and you have to take into account their start up lag.

nair is 1 frame slow and probably has a better hitbox for a defensive situation, I was just using uair because it's the faster one. Also, I don't know much about nairs priority.

So lets say Marth's fair comes out on frame 4. Ganon's Uair counter to marth attacking is actually 2 frames and not 6 and this is still depending on where ganon gets out of hitstun. For example, he could easily jump and Dair at the same time, both avoiding the fair and spiking marth at the same time. Or he could just uair straight from tumble and the comboer is too far to reach him so he gets hit when attempting to go ahead with the plan anyway. Ganon's nair also comes out pretty fast as well.

Dair's hitbox is so bad you'd be much better off trying to wizkick spike. Unless marth was crazy enough to get right under you I don't see that working.
More my point was, in a situation where AD is not an option because of the code does Ganon still have the ability to counter the approach without taking damage/being in less of a precarious situation after being hit (assuming the AD is too high to land into shield and is punished during ending lag)? I don't think it's something that can really be argued theoretically however because it would be character specific. But if this was the case and the code could become something that effects matchups and character balance, then it makes this more of a personal choice about depth > character balancing, and I just can't submit to that.

The problem is that you can AD as soon as you leave the up b humping part so you can DI to the ground, AD which auto cancels and punish him as if it were Vb. This code fixes that.

That assumes you're onstage using it, which is something not many Ganons in their right mind would do, and you could still tap out immediately because it's only faux hitstun, no? But eh, that's a minor issue.

Falcon's uair actually has a lot of range...and he's a fast character. You're asking for a lot when you ask to be able to airdodge out of "Falcon" combos. Those kinds of combos are likely the ones that actually rely on hitstun. Those would be the hitstun combo oriented characters.

I was more talking about situations where airdodge was viable beforehand, not being able to airdodge out of something I had no business airdodging out of because of hitstun.

Who's predicting who? I believe that if the person comboing predicts the person being combo'd...they should be able to keep the combo going. The person on the offense is constantly trying to position themselves for the sole purpose of limiting your options. That's how strings work. They take away your escape options so that everything left is both predictable and significantly punishable.

That's what I meant, but I guess I didn't word that very well. "They" was meant to be the person on offense.

Of course if the person getting combo'd is the one that predicts it, then there is always at least one escape option (assuming it's a string and not a true combo). Whether it be jump and airdodge, wiggle and airdodge, attack, fast fall during the tumble, or even just not do anything at all (lol at when the opponent is waiting for something and you just fall), there is something that they can do to escape, and sometimes even punish the other person (though not most of the time. You mostly end up in neutral positions after escaping a string.)

So you'd be reduced to chancing throwing out whatever random combination of jumping or wiggling you can think of to try and avoid your opponents predictions? That doesn't seem fair for a matchup that might've already been very much not in your favor.

 

[kupo15]

Hey, is there any chance that he KB code could be a ghetto fix for people canceling spikes early?

yea. the problem is in the mechanic itself.

 

[Dark Sonic]

That assumes you're onstage using it, which is something not many Ganons in their right mind would do, and you could still tap out immediately because it's only faux hitstun, no? But eh, that's a minor issue.

Or if their on the edge trying to edgeguard you and get hit by it...they can airdodge, land again, and continue edgeguarding you (despite getting hit by your recovery move.)

So you'd be reduced to chancing throwing out whatever random combination of jumping or wiggling you can think of to try and avoid your opponents predictions? That doesn't seem fair for a matchup that might've already been very much not in your favor.

No, you'd be reduced to predicting what the opponent will do and using the specific counter or counters for it. They're in the better position, and this is their reward for putting you here. You have to guess right to not get hit and you have to guess right to reset your position to neutral. Without the code, airdodging nearly resets your position regardless of whether or not it's predicted most of the time (since the hit afterwards will not combo into anything if the person airdodging knows what their doing).

I'm sorry that your character's specific attributes matter more with the code, and that some characters can take advantage of other character's weaknesses (seriously?) Having low priority in any particular direction is a character weakness. It's called a blind spot.

We can (and should) re-work character balance with the inclusion of this code (which is why I'm advocating that we don't include this code until we have the space to do so). I'm tired of "character balance" being used as a cop-out for the inclusion of this code (why wasn't this brought up with hitstun?!?! It obviously benefited combo oriented characters more!!)

 

[Dark Sonic]

I think that's a tad of an exaggeration, but I do agree that it doesn't seem like an ideal fix.

If anything, I don't have a problem with canceling spikes. I just have three problems as of now with the way the system works:

- You can cancel it way too early
- Its too easy to cancel
- Tap jump is significantly more efficient at it than manual jump with X/Y/Whatever

It's really not that far off. Bouncing off a surface drastically reduces knockback distance, but the original launch speed is still used to calculate hitstun.

Even if we increased the knockback enough for the spikes to be useful for...spiking, the knockback increase would not transfer nearly as much when it comes to bouncing off the floor. However the hitstun would directly translate, creating the effect I described (Ike can already dair->double jump uair anyway. This just extends the percentage range that it works by drastically increasing the hitstun on dair)

 

[kupo15]

I already have a video showing how MCing works.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qd4JblpdacQ#t=0m10s

It should be fixed.

Up b' shouldnt be mashable
You should have a window that is there at the start the meteor then goes away instead of

Meteored________window_____________________________out of spike stun.

 

[spunit262]

@sp unit: Wow, that's a lot of control.

Regarding damage -- If we're not really going to be able to fit it until we have Gecko 1.07b in any form anyways then I say you might as well include it.

It turns out that most hitboxes come is pairs, a front and a back, so the sex-kick only have 2-pairs of hitboxes, and the knee's first back hitbox is sour dealing only 6 damage.

Edit: How many frames do you have to wait to meteor cancel?

 

[GHNeko]

Wait. I forget. What's meteor canceling again? In words, not videos.

 

[jokey665]

Cancelling a spike with your up-b.

 

[shanus]

I already have a video showing how MCing works.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qd4JblpdacQ#t=0m10s

It should be fixed.

Up b' shouldnt be mashable
You should have a window that is there at the start the meteor then goes away instead of

Meteored________window_____________________________out of spike stun.

When we make a video demonstrating Brawl+ Mechanics and we get a code to fix this, is there any way you can fix this to make the clips run side by side?