COMPETITIVE Brawl+: Code Agenda

[Zodac]

Save Tags in Replays v3 [Y.S.]
0404B140 38A00000

convert to pal please?

 

[matt4300]

I'd mostly like to think that Link is only still a little bad because of how his move set was made. Clearly not a lot of thought went into it.

Well no matter how bad a moveset is a char can be good with the right tweaks...

If we REALLY wanted link to be as good as say Marth or something then:

* means its being considerd when we have more code space.

all death percents are taken from middle of FD on mario.(no dI)

1. Up b Speed and base kb buffed. *

Right now it uncharged it kills at 145 and 78 charged it should kill at 120 unchared and 70 charged.

2. Faster tilts (all of them) for better combos.

Dtilt should get the biggest speed boost. Ftilt should just get a starting lag boost, and Utilt just a small ending lag boost. So you can get in the air before there hitstun wears off. (faster dtilt is being considerd*)

3. more KB scaleing on Fsmash, Ftilt and Fairs second hit.

Fsmash first hit kills at 120 and second hit 125. First hit should kill at 110 second hit at 115. ftilt kills at 135. It should kill at 125. Fair second hit kills at 125 it should kill at 115 (fsmash is bieing considerd i think?*)

4. rang damage % brought up to 12 close range (and ofcouse it would lose alot of this as it goes further)

It does 7 up close 5 from a far (no im not kidding) it should do 12 close 9 from far away.

5. speed up the claw shot ending frames.*

6. increase the second jump by very little to help with combos.

OH and 7. dtilt base kb reduction.

(if something could be done with the spike that would be great)

none of this would make him 2 good. it would just make somethings (grounded up-b, ftilt, dtilt, claw shot, fair, second jump increase) ACTUALY USABLE!!!

he doesn't need any wierd ****. He just needs what he has now fixed/made better.

and before anyone says this is 2 much. Melee link had almost all of this and still sucked. Im hopeing that this + his brawl buffs to range, air claw shot, ect will even him out to being a good char.

 

[cobaltblue]

Melee Link didn't suck.

Well I guess he did if you limited yourself to the upper tiers. Otherwise he was like middle grade.

 

[MK26]

Well no matter how bad a moveset is a char can be good with the right tweaks...

If we REALLY wanted link to be as good as say Marth or something then:

* means its being considerd when we have more code space.

all death percents are taken from middle of FD on mario.(no dI)

1. Up b Speed and base kb buffed. *

Right now it uncharged it kills at 145 and 78 charged it should kill at 120 unchared and 70 charged.

2. Faster tilts (all of them) for better combos.

Dtilt should get the biggest speed boost. Ftilt should just get a starting lag boost, and Utilt just a small ending lag boost. So you can get in the air before there hitstun wears off. (faster dtilt is being considerd*)

3. more KB scaleing on Fsmash, Ftilt and Fairs second hit.

Fsmash first hit kills at 120 and second hit 125. First hit should kill at 110 second hit at 115. ftilt kills at 135. It should kill at 125. Fair second hit kills at 125 it should kill at 115 (fsmash is bieing considerd i think?*)

4. rang damage % brought up to 12 close range (and ofcouse it would lose alot of this as it goes further)

It does 7 up close 5 from a far (no im not kidding) it should do 12 close 9 from far away.

5. speed up the claw shot ending frames.*

6. increase the second jump by very little to help with combos.

OH and 7. dtilt base kb reduction.

(if something could be done with the spike that would be great)

none of this would make him 2 good. it would just make somethings (grounded up-b, ftilt, dtilt, claw shot, fair, second jump increase) ACTUALY USABLE!!!

he doesn't need any wierd ****. He just needs what he has now fixed/made better.

and before anyone says this is 2 much. Melee link had almost all of this and still sucked. Im hopeing that this + his brawl buffs to range, air claw shot, ect will even him out to being a good char.

I've played a bit of Link with the Beta4 set, and I really dont think he needs much of this.
The only buff the up-b needs besides the one it already got is giving back its Smash 64 kb, and that's just for the lulz.
The dtilt is a ridiculous comboer already, it doesnt need a speed increase. Not every utilt needs to be able to combo into itself, but I do agree the ftilt can use a startup lag reduction.
I can see more kb scaling on the fair, but i doubt the tilt and smash need it - he has other kill moves.
The boomerang is not really important, the clawshot already has 0 lag when it hits the ground, and the second jump fix can be done (but it would also slightly increase his full hop, is that a problem?)
And the dtilt doesnt need to be weaker, it's already a ridiculous comboer, and the spike would be nerfed if we decreased it

Your Link buffs arent basing him on how he would stack up to the other characters, but how each attack fares compared to the others. Not every kill move needs to be equal. Link isn't necissarily a combo charachter outside of a few two hit quitters like uthrow>uair. Sure, your ideas would make every attack useable, but then wouldn't we have to make every attack that every character has useable?

On an unrelated note, it seems CPUs are unaffected by the shieldstun code. They were shieldgrabbing left right and centre

 

[auroreon]

Where did the colored shields code go?

 

[zxeon]

Sure, your ideas would make every attack useable, but then wouldn't we have to make every attack that every character has useable?

That's a dumb thing to say. Of course every move on every character should be useful.

 

[goodoldganon]

That's a dumb thing to say. Of course every move on every character should be useful.

Who decides what move is unusable?


I'd also imagine a list of everyone's bad move would be quite long.

 

[CloneHat]

Jiggly's UpB and Ganon's Up tilt to name some (practically) useless moves.
Why have useless moves? It doesn't make sense.

 

[goodoldganon]

My point still stands. Who decides a move is bad or useless? The u-tilt has deceptive range and can be used to get a ledgestaller off the ledge. Also, much like the Falcon Punch, it disturbs the fight because suddenly most opponents get flustered not expecting such a bad attack to be used.

If we do decide to buff bad moves then I feel that list is going to quite overwhelming. I'd imagine every character has at least 2-3 bad moves.

 

[kupo15]

Where did the colored shields code go?

I took it off because it wasn't competitive. I should have given it over to trojanpooh's thread. Why? You want it?

Also, I asked Magus for his wisdom on MCing. This is how it worked in melee

It's a bit complicated.

1) Cancelable with mid-air jump(s) or up-b as early as frames 8+ of meteor knockback.

2) Using up-b at almost any time begins a no MC timer/window, where you can't MC with a jump or up-b at all for the next 40 frames. For example, if you're recovering and get meteored out of the startup of your up-b you won't be able to MC it until that timer has cleared.

3) Inputting a jump on frames 1-7 of meteor knockback prevents you from MCing with a jump for the next 40 frames (jumping at other times does not trigger it unlike the one caused by using up-b). If still available, you can MC with an up-b like normal during this period however. Using up-b on frames 1-7 counts as a jump and also triggers the no MC window using a double jump if the up input for the up-b is far enough to have caused a mid-air 'tap jump' with the control stick. If the stick isn't pressed far enough to do that when doing the up-b then a jump can still be used to MC, since only the no MC with up-b window is triggered.

4) Inputting an up-b during hitlag doesn't trigger the no MC window.

5) Extra freeze frames added from hitlag don't count towards the 40 frame no MC windows.

6) Auto-jumps on multi-jumps by holding a jump button (holding a jump input with Kirby/Jiggs after at least 1 mid-air jump has been used) does not use up your mid-air jump MC opportunity as long as it's pressed/held before frames 1-7, and since the auto-jump property of them will try to jump at the first possible opening to do one it MCs on frame 8. Holding jump when able to auto-jump, and then pressing up-b during frames 1-7 only prevents MCing with up-b for 40 frames, and doesn't prevent them from MCing with a jump. However, when not able to auto-jump (Kirby/Jiggs with all 5 jumps, or every other character), having a jump input held down when using up-b during 1-7 does trigger the no MC with jump window as well. (this whole part with auto-jumping is dumb imo, and those 2 characters can basically auto-MC by just holding up the whole time as long as they've jumped at least once and they start holding it before hitlag ends)

 

[Rikana]

Jiggly's UpB and Ganon's Up tilt to name some (practically) useless moves.
Why have useless moves? It doesn't make sense.

I beg to differ about jig's upB.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZwqBrj_EN-k#t=0m35

It's got some use to it. Not totally useless.

 

[shanus]

I took it off because it wasn't competitive. I should have given it over to trojanpooh's thread. Why? You want it?

Also, I asked Magus for his wisdom on MCing. This is how it worked in melee

Lol, thats gonna be a doozy to code it seems.

 

[Blank Mauser]

I beg to differ about jig's upB.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZwqBrj_EN-k#t=0m35

It's got some use to it. Not totally useless.

Yeah ledge sing is a use, and also great in teams.

 

[Swordplay]

The boomerang is not really important, the clawshot already has 0 lag when it hits the ground, and the second jump fix can be done (but it would also slightly increase his full hop, is that a problem?)

Althought he diesn't need itId imagine if his FH was slightly increased it might help as well. (as long as the increase is very small) Let me talk to finnz7 to make sure b4 you make that change



Good jobs on the tags code.

 

[PanzerOceania]

it's ok for characters to have bad moves, but who here can honestly say they think link doesn't need ANY buffs.

 

[matt4300]

I've played a bit of Link with the Beta4 set, and I really dont think he needs much of this.
The only buff the up-b needs besides the one it already got is giving back its Smash 64 kb, and that's just for the lulz.
The dtilt is a ridiculous comboer already, it doesnt need a speed increase. Not every utilt needs to be able to combo into itself, but I do agree the ftilt can use a startup lag reduction.
I can see more kb scaling on the fair, but i doubt the tilt and smash need it - he has other kill moves.
The boomerang is not really important, the clawshot already has 0 lag when it hits the ground, and the second jump fix can be done (but it would also slightly increase his full hop, is that a problem?)
And the dtilt doesnt need to be weaker, it's already a ridiculous comboer, and the spike would be nerfed if we decreased it

Your Link buffs arent basing him on how he would stack up to the other characters, but how each attack fares compared to the others. Not every kill move needs to be equal. Link isn't necissarily a combo charachter outside of a few two hit quitters like uthrow>uair. Sure, your ideas would make every attack useable, but then wouldn't we have to make every attack that every character has useable?

On an unrelated note, it seems CPUs are unaffected by the shieldstun code. They were shieldgrabbing left right and centre

See the problem with this is Link doesnt have other kill moves his dair got nerfed considerably with everyones gravitys and doesnt kill till the 120s wich makes for a bad kill move. Fsmash is also a terrible kill move when compared with other chars. Ftilt is one of his worst kill moves and its to slow to punish with anyway.
Dtilt is not a ridiculous comboer... most get out of the hitstun way before you can get up to there hieght. So makeing it knock them slightly lower would make it a combo move. Utilt has similar problems on all but the heavyer chars.
Lol you really must not have played link that much if his boomerang is not important to your game.
I wasn't talking about the arial claw shot i was talking about his grab version thats just plain stupid in its risk reward. (but this is being fixed for sure)

The point of all of these buffs is not to make everything usable or usefull, but rather to buff links offense to compensate for his sub par options. Go look at jiangs char ranking thread if you dont see what I mean. What this would do using jiangs rating system would give him an A or B in follow ups and an A or B in punishing thats 3 good catagorys right now he has 1 and thats just surivability... His game is offence and his not very good at that. This would make him what he always should have been.

Remember though, what I wrote is if we wanted to make link great like diddy or marth not just good like ivy or mario. Right now hes in the tiny char that need buffing line up wich has chars like bowser/lucas/samus in it. With Just the up-b buff, faster grab, and higher second jump he would be in the good catagory. Wich doenst win tournys.


this is just what i see now you dont have to agree just consider it.

EDIT: lol i forgot Dsmash one of his best kill moves. It needs no buffing and is fine the way it is . It doesnt kill very low but it gets the job done.

 

[Almas]

Save Tags in Replays v3 [Y.S.]
0404B140 38A00000

convert to pal please?

Save Tags in Replays v3 [Y.S., PAL Port: Almas]
0404BE7C 38A00000

 

[Shadic]

I think all of Link's tilts should be slightly sped up, perhaps EXCEPT for his D-tilt. Link has NEVER has an extremely useful D-tilt, except in some ledge-guarding situations.

What he has had in prior games (Mainly 64) was strong Smashes. And weren't even too slow. His F-smash should be a lot stronger, and his down smash needs some more knockback. It takes about four times longer than Metaknight's, and is weaker.

 

[Swordplay]

Once we get a vertical constant for vertical killing moves to offset the nerf gravity gave those moves he will be better as he was almost completely a vertical killer.

 

[4Serial]

So what if Link's d-tilt has never been useful in other Smash games? This is Brawl+, we don't need to make it like the other games.

 

[jokey665]

So what if Link's d-tilt has never been useful in other Smash games? This is Brawl+, we don't need to make it like the other games.

I thought the point of brawl+ was to take the good aspects of each smash game to make the 'perfect' smash game with what we have available.

 

[Shadic]

So what if Link's d-tilt has never been useful in other Smash games? This is Brawl+, we don't need to make it like the other games.

We're not trying to reinvent the characters. We're going off how they have played before, if possible. We're not going to make Fox slow, heavy, and strong just because we can. We're doing what makes sense.

Once we get a vertical constant for vertical killing moves to offset the nerf gravity gave those moves he will be better as he was almost completely a vertical killer.

That's a very good point. Perhaps translating the vertical trajectory into a more horizontal one with all his moves would be good. Too many of Link's moves send you at an upward diagonal. Which is the worst possible direction.

 

[Swordplay]

This is getting ********.

Instead of harping and pouncing on what needs to be improved give the B+ BR the time to implement the changes we've suggested. From there we can move on and continue discussing character balance issues.

Cut these guys some slack. They can't remake a character in a single day. It takes time and testing. Besides we still need more lines which we are getting soon.

 

[kupo15]

We have an updated camera code. I'm so excited to check this out :D

 

[goodoldganon]

You and your silly camera code. I really need to try this code since you talk so highly of it. I never found Brawls camera to be a problem. How does it play in teams and FFAs?

 

[GHNeko]

We have an updated camera code. I'm so excited to check this out :D

What changes are there?

 

[V-K]

A camera which zooms more back?
Nice.

 

[kupo15]

What changes are there?

PW IDed a lot of the unknowns so I am playing around with it right now

 

[storm92]

You and your silly camera code. I really need to try this code since you talk so highly of it. I never found Brawls camera to be a problem. How does it play in teams and FFAs?

It is SO much better.
It's especially noticeable for me on Smashville.

 

[kupo15]

We have a new camera code to adjust how much ahead the cam looks when you face directions. Melee camera should be right around the corner

 

[matt4300]

We have a new camera code to adjust how much ahead the cam looks when you face directions. A good camera should be right around the corner

Fixed to avoid douche bags harping on brawl +

 

[Phantom1987]

I would also like to decrease links bair to make it more comboable... (reverse grabbing, for example..)

 

[Shadic]

This is getting ********.

Instead of harping and pouncing on what needs to be improved give the B+ BR the time to implement the changes we've suggested. From there we can move on and continue discussing character balance issues.

Cut these guys some slack. They can't remake a character in a single day. It takes time and testing. Besides we still need more lines which we are getting soon.

This isn't about being tough on the B+Broomers, this is about being able to voice what we think should be done, as compared to having them hold our hands and tell us what we need.

There's a middle ground here.

 

[spunit262]

Hitbox Property Mod Engine [Phantom Wings, spunit262]
C2744A3C 00000017
3C008180 80FC0028
81070008 8108FFFC
7C080000 40800098
81080030 80DE0020
5106C00E 801E0000
5006821E 801E0018
5006442E 80E7007C
80E70038 813E0030
5127C0CE 801E0014
50076226 390204CC
85480014 81680004
7D405B79 41820050
7C0A3000 4082FFEC
7C0B3800 4082FFE4
88080008 90030004
88080009 9003001C
8808000A 90030024
8808000B 500906FE
91230034 A008000C
90030018 80080010
2C00FFFF 41820008
90030038 7F83E378
60000000 00000000

Hitbox Property Mod Data [Phantom Wings, spunit262]
065A9800 00000014
GGHHIIJJ KKLLLMMM
NNOOPPQQ RRRR0000
SSSSSSSS 00000000

GG charactor id
HH original damage
II original KB gain
JJ original Base KB
KK original Element
LLL original launch angle
MMM action id
NN new damage
OO new KB gain
PP new Base KB
QQ new Element
RRRR new launch angle
SSSSSSSS new SFX
Launch angle is in degree 0 is forward 90 is up 180 is backward and 270 is down and some values over 360 have special meaning (361=20, 362=0, 363=270(spike), 364=10? 365=no launch)

Experimentations proved that the "bubble id" wasn't very good at what we were using it for.

Reverse Knee fix
09065023 00169033
135D1E03 00200000
85A00000

Ness' Bat
0A123E32 0016902C
123E3200 01690000
8BA05276 0A143E32
0016902C 143E3200
01690000 8BA05276
0A163E32 0016902C
163E3200 01690000
8BA05276 0A183E32
0016902C 183E3200
01690000 8BA05276

Rest values
250F4B64 0E058115

 

[goodoldganon]

Cool stuff spunit. As always thanks for the hard work. I'm sure someone can make good use of this.

 

[Shell]

Wow. That. Is. Incredible.

Total control over moves (!) Thanks for your hard work sp unit262.

For launch angle, is 0 degrees a flat horizontal away from the attacker? And does it increase counterclockwise?

 

[shanus]

Hitbox Property Mod Engine [Phantom Wings, spunit262]
C2744A3C 00000017
3C008180 80FC0028
81070008 8108FFFC
7C080000 40800098
81080030 80DE0020
5106C00E 801E0000
5006821E 801E0018
5006442E 80E7007C
80E70038 813E0030
5127C0CE 801E0014
50076226 390204CC
85480014 81680004
7D405B79 41820050
7C0A3000 4082FFEC
7C0B3800 4082FFE4
88080008 90030004
88080009 9003001C
8808000A 90030024
8808000B 500906FE
91230034 A008000C
90030018 80080010
2C00FFFF 41820008
90030038 7F83E378
60000000 00000000

Hitbox Property Mod Data [Phantom Wings, spunit262]
065A9800 00000014
GGHHIIJJ KKLLLMMM
NNOOPPQQ RRRR0000
SSSSSSSS 00000000

GG charactor id
HH original damage
II original KB gain
JJ original Base KB
KK original Element
LLL original launch angle
MMM action id
NN new damage
OO new KB gain
PP new Base KB
QQ new Element
RRRR new launch angle
SSSSSSSS new SFX
Launch angle is in degree and some values over 360 have special meaning (361=20, 362=0, 363=270, 364=10? 365=no launch)

Experimentations proved that the "bubble id" wasn't very good at what we were using it for.

Reverse Knee fix
09065023 00169033
135D1E03 00200000
85A00000

Rest values
250F4B64 0E058115

That code is beyond comprehension. Where do you live so I can buy you a beer?

 

[kupo15]

@_@

Wow, this is amazingly awesome!

 

[spunit262]

I edited the post...

 

[leafgreen386]

Spunit... you... are... a... GOD! This is a masterpiece. It's so... incredible.

Question, though. For the launch angle, do we use hex or decimal?

Oh, and I don't mean to sound rude when you've made this amazing code for us, but it's spelled "character." Not "charactor."

THIS CODE IS AMAZING!