COMPETITIVE Brawl+: Code Agenda

[storm92]

Magus, I was actually just talking to leaf about this on AIM.

Either we make the window something like 15-20 frames, or we remove the system altogether.

@CloneHat- Exactly what I'm arguing against.

 

[CloneHat]

Magus, I was actually just talking to leaf about this on AIM.

Either we make the window something like 15-20 frames, or we remove the system altogether.

@CloneHat- Exactly what I'm arguing against.

I think it should be gone, you can't stop attacks if they hit you up, or sideways!

 

[kupo15]

Definitely not. Looking at your video, Brawl's MC system almost seems like a nerfed version of it just with longer delay before you can MC. Anyone figure out how it works exactly using the frame advance code? If it's still a universal delay on knockback before you can cancel you could just increase it. Maybe like Melee's being 7, and if Brawl's is like 15, then make it 20 something if you want to nerf it further, or inbetween if you want to buff it a little.

Edit: Oh, so the the thing you want to nerf is how you can mash up-b to do it in Brawl? That makes more sense since I don't see much of a problem with the effectiveness of the cancel itself in Brawl. You still need to go a good amount of the distance before it becomes cancelable.

Yea, the biggest problem I have is how you cancel it. Up b is mashable and both windows never shut off once its open. I'm pretty sure melee's MC window shut off and you suffered the full spike if you were too late.

 

[Magus420]

I'm pretty sure the window is always there in Melee. However, since mistiming it requires you to wait out 40 frames before attempting it again or you keep restarting the timer (similar to how mashing L/R to tech will cause you to miss your techs repeatedly by restarting the disabled tech period over and over), you would usually wait out most/all of the stun or die before you get a 2nd chance.

So is jump not mashable in Brawl to do it? If you try to cancel with jump too early on a very strong hit can you wait without trying to jump for a while and then try again? If there's a similar timer following a failed MC with jump, perhaps you could do the same thing for using up-b?

 

[kupo15]

I'm not sure exactly how it works but the jumps work fine. If the up b can act like the jump that would be good. I'm not sure if there is a timer to retry or not. I thought melee had a small window to perform the cancel. Guess not. It seems to make sense to me that the timing should be very strict since MCing usually puts the attacker at a disadvantage and it kills meteors like Mario's fair. A missed MC makes Mario's meteor good. I was playing against my roommate once and he actually was able to jump out of my falcon spike and he doesn't know that much about the game at all. He was either button mashing or he happened to react right when the window is open.

If the window never went away, maybe we should buff MCing in melee so that there is only a x frame window in which you can cancel it and if you miss, too bad.

 

[Shell]

I wouldn't base anything on Mario's fair -- that may need a slight individual KB increase anyways

Edit: Classic face-stomp, there.

 

[cAm8ooo]

Definitely not. Looking at your video, Brawl's MC system almost seems like a nerfed version of it just with longer delay before you can MC. Anyone figure out how it works exactly using the frame advance code? If it's still a universal delay on knockback before you can cancel you could just increase it. Maybe like Melee's being 7, and if Brawl's is like 15, then make it 20 something if you want to nerf it further, or inbetween if you want to buff it a little.

Edit: Oh, so the the thing you want to nerf is how you can mash up-b to do it in Brawl? That makes more sense since I don't see much of a problem with the effectiveness of the cancel itself in Brawl. You still need to go a good amount of the distance before it becomes cancelable.

This is not an example of MC. It's just an example of how awesome kirby is

 

[spunit262]

048E159C 3B9D0000

Just need this tested to make sure I'm on the right track, should make MC impossible.

 

[kupo15]

I wouldn't base anything on Mario's fair -- that may need a slight individual KB increase anyways

Edit: Classic face-stomp, there.

This is my reasoning behind mario's fair. See when he goes into the tumble? Mario's fair is good if its not MCed. A kb increase would just make it spike earlier than 50%


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qd4JblpdacQ&feature=channel_page

I'll test it

 

[abcool]

Is ledge teching in the game yet?

 

[leafgreen386]

I honestly think that the easiest solution would be to just remove MCing entirely. Personally, I think that if you get hit by a spike... you should die. Period. None of this meteor cancel BS. In melee, the two top tiers that had spikes... had real spikes. If you got it with one of them at a high enough percent, you died. Period. The end. You dealt with it and it became a part of how the game was played. I really think that the MC is just an unnecessary mechanic that takes away from the purpose of spikes.

edit: Awesome, spunit. Gonna test that. I think we may want to just stop here and think about if this is the fix we want. Because if all we want to do is disable MCing, then going further would be pointless.

 

[Shell]

I'd still like MC's to be very difficult (especially at percents above 50ish) yet still possible for more of an "Oh snap!" moment when it does happen, but I'd test a no MC code. It could be a very easy option, as you say.

 

[kupo15]

I could still meteor cancel spunit

 

[PanzerOceania]

I'm with Shell, as long as it's very hard to do, you're pretty much a dead man anyways but it adds variety and surprise to the game.

 

[GHNeko]

Did 64 have MCing? Either the Brawl version or Melee version.

 

[kupo15]

64 had no MCing.

Spunit, your teching code does work. I dont' know why it froze the last time

 

[GHNeko]

Well then, lets take from 64 and get rid of it.

 

[jokey665]

Not that my opinion matters much, but I'm on the fence about brawl+ as it is, and the removal of meteor canceling is one of the things that will immediately push me to the vbrawl side.

 

[PanzerOceania]

why?

10char

 

[jokey665]

Because I play ROB and I pride myself on the fact that it's really really hard to kill me with a spike, even at high percents.

 

[abcool]

Is ledge teching in the game yet?

 

[Shell]

Just because you can't MC a spike doesn't mean you won't survive it, depending on your percent, speed, and strength of the spike.

I survived Marth's dair and Falco's dair more frequently than you'd probably think in Melee. Never survived the wizkick, though

Thus, ROB would still be one of the best to survive from a spike if it didn't initially kill him

That's not saying I'm for the code, necessarily, but it sounds interesting and I'd love to test it once it's working.

 

[The Cape]

Arent we looking at having Melee style MC instead of the Brawl one?

Due to the fact that it requires you to time your recovery instead of just mash the button?

 

[Shell]

We were, but we're exploring this N64 style tangent. You're thoughts?

Also, sorry abcool, but I don't know what the current status of ledgeteching is.

 

[abcool]

We were, but we're exploring this N64 style tangent. You're thoughts?

Also, sorry abcool, but I don't know what the current status of ledgeteching is.

Thanks for responding

 

[The Cape]

Then again. The way the Brawl engine works, no meteor cancelling might not be too bad.

Kirby makes me shudder though.

 

[Shell]

What do you mean specifically to the Brawl engine, Cape?

 

[The Cape]

Better air control, AD is more effective, recovery is better, hitstun isnt stupid high for combos into them and shiz.

 

[kupo15]

Then again. The way the Brawl engine works, no meteor cancelling might not be too bad.

Kirby makes me shudder though.

Don't worry about kirby. I tested him out and his meteor is trash so no MCing won't really affect kirby. I'm all for no MCing. You have wall teching to help you

 

[Drakar]

More fall speed! MOAR FALL SPEED!

but seriously it would kinda be cooler if characters fell faster

EDIT: I mean EVEN faster

 

[Shell]

Better air control, AD is more effective, recovery is better, hitstun isnt stupid high for combos into them and shiz.

Very true. But I still like the idea of a tiny window, maybe 1-2 frames. Something that's comparable in rarity and power to the Melee power shield.

kupo: you say sp unit's first try doesn't work? Otherwise I'll start testing this out later tonight.

 

[kupo15]

More fall speed! MOAR FALL SPEED!

but seriously it would kinda be cooler if characters fell faster

EDIT: I mean EVEN faster

I agree. I think its still too floaty :\

We have a launch angle mod to compensate for the horizontal buffs now

 

[Problem2]

What if we allowed Meteor Canceling, but set a cap on it?

I think it's exciting when someone lands a meteor smash
I think it's even more exciting when someone meteor cancels
But I can't help but jump out of my chair with excitement when the player lands a 2nd meteor smash

I think a great medium would be to limit the number of possible meteor cancels to only one, but refreshes when you land back on stage (like Sonic's up-b)

What upsets me are instances where the attacker lands 3 or more in a row and the opponent survives.

 

[Alopex]

A few questions:

1) What's the purpose behind changing the animation using the Animation ID and the frame mod? I mean, like, when would you choose to change the Animation and not the Action?

2) I'm sure someone's asked, so forgive me and please indulge me, but what do the Reverse Knee Fix, Ness's Bat, and Rest Values codes do, exactly? I see them listed, I just don't see their explanation.

3) kupo, have you managed to get a video of the Camera Bubble code in action? I would be interested in seeing that comparison just like your previous comparison vid.

 

[storm92]

As long as we don't use anything close to Melee's, unless its something like PSing as Shell mentioned, I'll be happy.
No MC seems pretty reasonable with Brawl's physics.

 

[Shell]

Does anyone else like the Melee PSing difficulty idea?

 

[The Cape]

Kirby Meteor isnt bad for its knockback, its bad because it drags. And his multiple jumps allow him to keep doing it.

 

[kupo15]

A few questions:

1) What's the purpose behind changing the animation using the Animation ID and the frame mod? I mean, like, when would you choose to change the Animation and not the Action?

2) I'm sure someone's asked, so forgive me and please indulge me, but what do the Reverse Knee Fix, Ness's Bat, and Rest Values codes do, exactly? I see them listed, I just don't see their explanation.

3) kupo, have you managed to get a video of the Camera Bubble code in action? I would be interested in seeing that comparison just like your previous comparison vid.

The knee can finally send backwards being that it was the only one that couldn't out of spite.

I'll make a video I guess

Kirby Meteor isnt bad for its knockback, its bad because it drags. And his multiple jumps allow him to keep doing it.

Well then how would no meteor canceling make kirby's spike so terrible if it never affected it in the first place?

 

[Shadic]

I never liked Meteor Canceling in the first place. It just makes me miss Smash 64, broken Kirby or not.

 

[GHNeko]

So are we for N64 No MC?

Or are we still trying to do Melee MCing?