COMPETITIVE Brawl+: Code Agenda

[Eaode]

the main problem with the RPS analogy is that the "point values" are the only basis for your decision making. In smash, it'd be better to have all of the options balanced with each other, because the Individual Situation would determine what the best option was. So in reality the relative merits would change based on the position, move used last, character, DI, etc etc etc. and it would be up to the player to quickly figure out the best option, and then it would be up to the attacker to figure out the best option and decide a counter, and you go from there.

Having one option be better than the others almost all the time makes it much less dynamic.


I really don't care to further this argument anymore. I've always had this difference of opinion from a certain part of the community. I'm always for changes that enrich the game in terms of depth or competitiveness even if it means shifting character balance a little bit. But a lot of the community prefers to make those small sacrifices to the overall game to favor character balance. There's nothing wrong with that at all, I'm just stating the difference.

So in reality, I couldn't give two ****s if heavies were more vulnerable to strings. That's always been the nature of heavies. But I know many people wouldn't want that to happen, so I'll rest my case and let others continue if they so please.

 

[MK26]

Hitlag really didn't need to be decreased. There are a few attacks (Knee, lightning kicks, D3 hammer, Marth tippers, etc.) that have massive amounts of hitlag, but wouldn't it be possible to only tweak the moves that need tweaking, rather than a blanket fix that hurts more than it helps?

And anyways, I thought the majority of these high-hitlag moves fell under a category called "cinematic hitlag" or something of the sort, where you are'nt able to SDI if you get hit by the sweetspot. Maybe just targeting cinematic hitlag, rather than all hitlag, would be a more prudent course of action

 

[Revven]

Hitlag really didn't need to be decreased. There are a few attacks (Knee, lightning kicks, D3 hammer, Marth tippers, etc.) that have massive amounts of hitlag, but wouldn't it be possible to only tweak the moves that need tweaking, rather than a blanket fix that hurts more than it helps?

And anyways, I thought the majority of these high-hitlag moves fell under a category called "cinematic hitlag" or something of the sort, where you are'nt able to SDI if you get hit by the sweetspot. Maybe just targeting cinematic hitlag, rather than all hitlag, would be a more prudent course of action

No. Hitlag is too disgusting to keep at a higher value, whenever I go back to regular Brawl, I feel like something is terribly wrong whenever I hit someone's shield with a move or someone in general. Lower hitlag = good, people keep bringing this up and honestly, I'm quite tired of it. Higher hitlag = bad. Hitlag (lowered) allows combos to flow better and not look clunky it ALSO makes DI'ing much harder (or SDI'ing) in general and isn't so easy to react to. Fox's Drill for example, it's easy to DI in regular Brawl but nobody does because they don't necessarily have to, whereas in Brawl+ it's a REQUIREMENT and if you don't react fast enough, you deserve to eat that drill.

So, no, we're not changing hitlag. The only char that has problems is ZSS and we're going to do something about her at some point.

 

[shanus]

Not everyone relies on hitstun to combo in this game. Some combo more heavily via strings and when you have something like this where you can always air dodge to prevent the most amount of punishment instead of buffing that punishment to be equal to the other 3 options, this hurts those characters. So if you want to achieve a better balance amongst the characters, the better option would be to reduce hitstun so that those characters that take the most advantage from hitstun balance out with those who rely on better rewards in strings. Without this code, you are hurting characters who rely more on strings.

Lol, now your definitely scraping the bottom of the barrel now! Are you telling me that are character like sonic, who is like the king of string combos has difficulty comboing without this code?

The plussery set right now has a really high hitstun value. Why? Is it because the other characters can't combo well on a low hitstun setting so you think that more hitstun will solve the problem? If that is the case (which I believe it is) then this is the wrong solution (which is what the plussery is doing) I think this because the more you raise hitstun, the more god like the naturally gifted comboers are going to be since they can use the full power of hitstun to their advantage, which doesn't help in balancing the roster. If, however, you actually cater to the the characters playstyles better, then you would see more balance in the roster. This would require you to not have favoritism towards one of the two forms of comboing and actually make them equal! This would mean that lowering hitstun and including the tumble codes actually balances the roster better.You can't give me one situation and tell me to disprove it and expect that to be proof in itself on limited facts. There are sooo many factors that go into this game and determine the outcome of the situation with this code on that this is simply not enough information for me to respond to.

According to leafgreen's latest math your hitstun yield the same exact number of frames. Man strings are so much more effective now, especially when your suffering placebo effect! Also, bowser is a great example because he has zero good options no matter what. Plain and simple. When you look at it like this, 90% or more of the community presents solid arguments against it, and you have Eaode, Darksonic, and kupo for it. EVeryone here isn't just saying I dislike the code, they bring proof to the side. I even brought frame data which demonstrated the innate disparity that this code supports. Drop it guys, this code removes depth and hurts a lot of characters.

This is not a valid excuse. All the codes we have are hard for people to adjust to from vbrawl, why should this be special? How is this code more awkward to get used to than lets say NASL? IIRC, a lot of the community dislikes this code and still detest it to this day. Why haven't you removed this yet?

There's a difference here. Even a majority of the backroom doesn't like this code. And when I argued it in there and it didn't seem to go anywhere in your favor, you brought it out here.

 

[Eaode]

shanus I'm not going to say much more except the only point you've brought up is character balance. Okay, so some character have more options than others. You haven't refuted the other points at all. Please stop accusing the other side of ignoring things and not bringing facts when you've brought up one point and ignored everything else.

Anyway, changing subject, is anybody looking into fine-tuning the tech window fix? things like Ganon's >b and Footstool spike teching should be looked into

 

[Finns7]

Your talking about how you can tech his side b now with the tech code fix?

 

[Frogles]

shanus I'm not going to say much more except the only point you've brought up is character balance. Okay, so some character have more options than others. You haven't refuted the other points at all. Please stop accusing the other side of ignoring things and not bringing facts when you've brought up one point and ignored everything else.

Anyway, changing subject, is anybody looking into fine-tuning the tech window fix? things like Ganon's >b and Footstool spike teching should be looked into

im not gonna pretend like ive been paying attention to this debate, but since when is character balance NOT a good enough reason to dismiss a code?

 

[Eaode]

yes, precisely. Me not playing Ganon and thus being the defender would love teching out of his >B, but the followup for his >B shouldn't be that hard or reduced. But I don't play Ganon so I don't know te extent of the problem.

 

[Finns7]

You can tech it his side B with the recent teching code

 

[Eaode]

You can tech it his side B with the recent teching code

Yes, this has been established. Is there anyone looking into a fix or anything of the sort is the question now.

 

[Finns7]

They sped up the choke

 

[kupo15]

im not gonna pretend like ive been paying attention to this debate, but since when is character balance NOT a good enough reason to dismiss a code?

He was slightly wrong with that. But since when does personal dislike because you don't feel like adjusting merit the non inclusion of a code that actually helps character balance?

I really don't care to further this argument anymore. I've always had this difference of opinion from a certain part of the community. I'm always for changes that enrich the game in terms of depth or competitiveness even if it means shifting character balance a little bit. But a lot of the community prefers to make those small sacrifices to the overall game to favor character balance. There's nothing wrong with that at all, I'm just stating the difference.

So in reality, I couldn't give two ****s if heavies were more vulnerable to strings. That's always been the nature of heavies. But I know many people wouldn't want that to happen, so I'll rest my case and let others continue if they so please.

No but your wrong though, this code HELPS the character balance by catering towards character playstyles. Increasing hitstun to a high amount only helps to benefit the combo gifted characters more than the string oriented characters which destroys character balance the same way using the tumble codes and decreasing hitstun to a huge amount is more biased towards those who combo via strings. You can't force the tumble stun people to only work with hitstun and expect them to be better because they won't ever use that to the potential of the hitstun oriented characters. They need tumble stun to work at their full potential and the other side just doesn't care.

Some characters use hitstun, some characters use tumble stun, and some can use both and there needs to be a balance between all of them but at the moment, the balance is heavily biased towards the hitstun oriented characters.

Hitlag really didn't need to be decreased. There are a few attacks (Knee, lightning kicks, D3 hammer, Marth tippers, etc.) that have massive amounts of hitlag, but wouldn't it be possible to only tweak the moves that need tweaking, rather than a blanket fix that hurts more than it helps?

Hence why the electric hitlag is in thee OP

Lol, now your definitely scraping the bottom of the barrel now! Are you telling me that are character like sonic, who is like the king of string combos has difficulty comboing without this code?

Haha, are you telling me that sonic doesn't combo via hitstun and he relies solely on tumble options? If you think sonic is more of a string oriented character over hitstun and your having major problems with sonics OPness, its because he is benefiting too much from high hitstun AND the tumble codes. Just because sonic can benefit from both forms of comboing doesn't mean the problem lies in the tumble codes, thus you should remove that combo option from characters who rely solely on it. You hurt those characters. Maybe the problem lies in the fact that hitstun is too high but you seemed to be so tunnel visioned to see that.

According to leafgreen's latest math your hitstun yield the same exact number of frames. Man strings are so much more effective now, especially when your suffering placebo effect! Also, bowser is a great example because he has zero good options no matter what. Plain and simple. When you look at it like this, 90% or more of the community presents solid arguments against it, and you have Eaode, Darksonic, and kupo for it. EVeryone here isn't just saying I dislike the code, they bring proof to the side. I even brought frame data which demonstrated the innate disparity that this code supports. Drop it guys, this code removes depth and hurts a lot of characters.

Man, you really must be scraping from the bottom of the barrel in any attempt to hide the strong points we brought up and scare us away by saying we lost. Are you seriously going to pin the placebo affect on our side when we ALL were fooled? Oh and if anything, this information helped out my side because if my hitstun setting actually is no different than yours and through the placebo affect, I found out how to escape combos with the tumble code as if it was lower, then the tumble codes are not at fault. After the code to fix the hitstun division constant, my hitstun setting make more sense and it will actually work a lot better. But yea, if I have no problems with the combo game with the added tumble codes at the same hitstun level as you, then the tumble codes don't present the problem you have been claiming all along

You bring proof? Sorry, but "I don't like it because I play on wifi" or "I tried it and didn't bother getting used to it" are not valid proofs. It seems like this is what your only argument has boiled down to because we countered the other points that you didn't even respond to some of them.

I know you play falcon shanus and I know that you want him to beast and better than the rest to combo everyone to hell and back again, but you don't have go this much out of your way to make sure that Bowser and the other heavies suffer by excluding this code because you are afraid to work a little harder for your combos as falcon. I thought you were going for playability and balance. I guess that was a lie.

Oh and btw, this game is based off of counterpicks and if you can't handle wiggling out to air dodge or jump out because you don't want to, pick another character. We are NOT making this game so that you can main bowser without the weaknesses he has as a justification to keep depth from the game. And not only depth, but balance for that matter. Its a double edged sword. Bowser may get hurt a little (possibly) by this code (even though he still isn't screwed like you say he is) but the he can reap the benefits more from this code to outweigh that flaw. This project isn't supposed to remove ALL weaknesses from the characters like you propose, but then again, if you still want to remove it based on you and the "communities" personal distaste despite the balance it brings to the game, you should also have removed NASL because that hurts poor Boozer as well

shanus I'm not going to say much more except the only point you've brought up is character balance. Okay, so some character have more options than others. You haven't refuted the other points at all. Please stop accusing the other side of ignoring things and not bringing facts when you've brought up one point and ignored everything else.

But don't forget, this code actually helps character balance more than without it, yet they want to remove it anyway because of their personal distaste. Sounds like a great argument to me.

I too am not going to say much more because I'm done with arguing with people who don't read and don't understand what this code does and how it helps character balance. I'm also tired of arguing the same points brought on by your side in an attempt that maybe if that point didn't work the first time, it will work eventually.

You haven't won by a long shot and I'll argue this more when we get the space because I'll be ****ed if this game will lack the depth and balance it deserves because they can't understand that and feel like playing favorites by forcing more emphasis on ONE of two aspects of comboing instead of making them EQUAL.

Anyway, changing subject, is anybody looking into fine-tuning the tech window fix? things like Ganon's >b and Footstool spike teching should be looked into

Can you really tech footstools?

 

[Eaode]

Can you really tech footstools?

Yeah, I think the new tech fix just checks if you hit the ground 20 frames after hitting L, so you can probably tech any ground collision granted you're in tumble.

 

[abcool]

Yeah, I think the new tech fix just checks if you hit the ground 20 frames after hitting L, so you can probably tech any ground collision granted you're in tumble.

First i would like to agree with you and kupo, the mindset for ppl on the brawl+ boards favor noobs more than melee vets who make the transition, i know i love the tumble code because i am already used to it and know my options to escape. Anyway, is ledgeteching possible with this new tech code? or does spunit need to fix that aswell?

 

[Finns7]

What characters benefit from this code, give me a situation...who is a string char? I think we are fine as is, and all thats left mostly is a decrease in kb for char specific grabs.

 

[kupo15]

What characters benefit from this code, give me a situation...who is a string char? I think we are fine as is, and all thats left mostly is a decrease in kb for char specific grabs.

Anyone that doesn't combo like falcon or MK are string characters. All heavies are string characters because they get the most out of following up after hitstun leaves them (this includes bowser) Pit is a string player. He works better if he can position you it certain places and if you can just Air dodge through that hard positioning he did, it hurts him. For example, melee peach was a string character and didn't use hitstun to benefit in her combos the same way marth did. Marth in melee was a combo king and used hitstun a lot to help him out.

As I mentioned in my video Finnz that you commented on. That one spot where you pointed out the forced jump over an air dodge by ganon, without the code, I could have easily air dodged through his laggy attack and laggy landing lag, the air dodge autocancels and I could have punished him for being aggressive. If it were a fast character, it wouldn't have been bad because their fast aerials would finish before the air dodge was over so they are not in at the disadvantage. So ganon would not have gotten as much help and needs to work EXTRA hard to win. See how it helps out the heavies more now?

I think we are fine as is, and all thats left mostly is a decrease in kb for char specific grabs.

The game is good, I'm not going to lie, but it can be better. By lowering the hitstun and using the tumble codes, the two combo styles are BALANCED. What you have right now is hitstun oriented, excellent; and strings oriented, poor. You don't need to do individual balancing to fix balance issues. Sometimes the simplest solutions are game mechanics and we have known this to be true since day 1 of brawl+.

We have been going towards applying the codes to fit the playstyle of the characters and for some odd reason, this code is not treated in the same manner when it does just that.

 

[abcool]

What characters benefit from this code, give me a situation...who is a string char? I think we are fine as is, and all thats left mostly is a decrease in kb for char specific grabs.

Well if you want a character, Fox's up throw to uair works again, and bowser can take advantage of Fastfallers with it, it's a win/lose situation, it's all about strings and if ya bowser taking beating you can counter pick, that IS why most ppl have secondaries rite. I wanna say this Not everyone plays the same. The metagame changes from time to time. 20ppl can main bowser but i'll bet you not all 20 of them plays with the samestyle. Give ppl options and let us decide what we want. I don't want to play a game where everyone has to use the samestyle..wait that is vbrawl.

 

[kupo15]

I wouldn't say Fox is a stringed character. He might be more of a hitstun character or might be middle, but I'm not sure. If he can suddenly do uthrow to uair, that's not the work of the tumble codes, its more of the hitstun because you would be able to jump out in time

 

[abcool]

I wouldn't say Fox is a stringed character. He definitely is more of a hitstun character and if he can suddenly do uthrow to uair, that's not the work of the tumble codes, its more of the hitstun because you would be able to jump out in time

Only since the strings have this been implemented, but overall i still like it regardless i got some sonic mains in my team. It's the code because most ppl try not to jump out and therefore get caught. it's more of a mindgame


Edit: does the new tech code allow ledgeteching?

 

[shanus]

He was slightly wrong with that. But since when does personal dislike because you don't feel like adjusting merit the non inclusion of a code that actually helps character balance?



No but your wrong though, this code HELPS the character balance by catering towards character playstyles. Increasing hitstun to a high amount only helps to benefit the combo gifted characters more than the string oriented characters which destroys character balance the same way using the tumble codes and decreasing hitstun to a huge amount is more biased towards those who combo via strings. You can't force the tumble stun people to only work with hitstun and expect them to be better because they won't ever use that to the potential of the hitstun oriented characters. They need tumble stun to work at their full potential and the other side just doesn't care.

Full potential? Who are you kidding? Seriously now, there isn't even a point now because your post is full NO LOGIC whatsoever. Your reducing air dodge to make comboing easy, case and point. I combo plenty as is, and would be willing to MM my bowser against any char you have (except MK, he still needs some work).

Some characters use hitstun, some characters use tumble stun, and some can use both and there needs to be a balance between all of them but at the moment, the balance is heavily biased towards the hitstun oriented characters.

I do fine with both without your code. Practice more?

Haha, are you telling me that sonic doesn't combo via hitstun and he relies solely on tumble options? If you think sonic is more of a string oriented character over hitstun and your having major problems with sonics OPness, its because he is benefiting too much from high hitstun AND the tumble codes. Just because sonic can benefit from both forms of comboing doesn't mean the problem lies in the tumble codes, thus you should remove that combo option from characters who rely solely on it. You hurt those characters. Maybe the problem lies in the fact that hitstun is too high but you seemed to be so tunnel visioned to see that.

My sonic is pretty **** good now, I'm saying he doesn't need your code to hold his hand any more!

Man, you really must be scraping from the bottom of the barrel in any attempt to hide the strong points we brought up and scare us away by saying we lost. Are you seriously going to pin the placebo affect on our side when we ALL were fooled? Oh and if anything, this information helped out my side because if my hitstun setting actually is no different than yours and through the placebo affect, I found out how to escape combos with the tumble code as if it was lower, then the tumble codes are not at fault. After the code to fix the hitstun division constant, my hitstun setting make more sense and it will actually work a lot better. But yea, if I have no problems with the combo game with the added tumble codes at the same hitstun level as you, then the tumble codes don't present the problem you have been claiming all along

Your hitstun gives the same frame setting (maybe like .1 frame difference than mine does). Unless you play concistently frame perfect, you suffer placebo effect.

You bring proof? Sorry, but "I don't like it because I play on wifi" or "I tried it and didn't bother getting used to it" are not valid proofs. It seems like this is what your only argument has boiled down to because we countered the other points that you didn't even respond to some of them.

My proof is frame data. Your proof is pure empty bull**** saying I'm maximizing depth and character potential which is flat out untrue. Your facilitating combos on any SHFFL combo characters whereas providing no overt benefit on any of the other portions of the cast. Limiting options, limiting depth.

I know you play falcon shanus and I know that you want him to beast and better than the rest to combo everyone to hell and back again, but you don't have go this much out of your way to make sure that Bowser and the other heavies suffer by excluding this code because you are afraid to work a little harder for your combos as falcon. I thought you were going for playability and balance. I guess that was a lie.

I've barely played falcon the past 3 weeks. Ask anyone watching my stream. If anything, you'll notice I've been playing as falcon, ganon, sonic, and fox more. Information is power! Assumptions are awesome!

You are the one who plays falcon and ganon, so don't even try it. How about you suggest speeding up his aerials 5% more again too? That was an awesome idea! Clearly my concern is Captain Falcon and not character balance!

Oh and btw, this game is based off of counterpicks and if you can't handle wiggling out to air dodge or jump out because you don't want to, pick another character. We are NOT making this game so that you can main bowser without the weaknesses he has as a justification to keep depth from the game. And not only depth, but balance for that matter. Its a double edged sword. Bowser may get hurt a little (possibly) by this code (even though he still isn't screwed like you say he is) but the he can reap the benefits more from this code to outweigh that flaw. This project isn't supposed to remove ALL weaknesses from the characters like you propose, but then again, if you still want to remove it based on you and the "communities" personal distaste despite the balance it brings to the game, you should also have removed NASL because that hurts poor Boozer as well

Justifying this by counterpick is the worst idea ever. What this does is heightens the disparity of most of the weaker characters in the cast. Therefore, it makes playing a higher tier more favorable as they have better options out of tumble. This means you are less likely to choose a character than before and will make the situation even worse.

NASL hurts many top tiers too. Diddy and Fox are two prime examples. It is not nearly as biased as the tumble code is.

But don't forget, this code actually helps character balance more than without it, yet they want to remove it anyway because of their personal distaste. Sounds like a great argument to me.

All you've said so far is personal taste and flawed arguments. Oh heys lets buff captain falcon again too!

I too am not going to say much more because I'm done with arguing with people who don't read and don't understand what this code does and how it helps character balance. I'm also tired of arguing the same points brought on by your side in an attempt that maybe if that point didn't work the first time, it will work eventually.

You haven't won by a long shot and I'll argue this more when we get the space because I'll be ****ed if this game will lack the depth and balance it deserves because they can't understand that and feel like playing favorites by forcing more emphasis on ONE of two aspects of comboing instead of making them EQUAL.

PLaying favorites? Hey guys lets buff falcon aerials some more!

I'm done now, off I go!

 

[Blank Mauser]

Can you still jump out of tumble with the NAT code?

Sonic is a horrible combo character. Hes the worst in the game right now.

 

[kupo15]

Full potential? Who are you kidding? Seriously now, there isn't even a point now because your post is full NO LOGIC whatsoever..

So are you telling me that bowser combos like MK or falcon? That's failed logic right there which makes arguing with you very pointless.

Your reducing air dodge to make comboing easy, case and point. I combo plenty as is, and would be willing to MM my bowser against any char you have (except MK, he still needs some work)

I guess you missed the part where hitstun would be lowered as an affect to adding these codes. So how am I "giving" combos away exactly when you have 3 other escape options untouched?

I do fine with both without your code. Practice more?

If you don't know how to escape without the miracle air dodge being the viable escape option always, maybe you need to practice more.

Your hitstun gives the same frame setting (maybe like .1 frame difference than mine does). Unless you play concistently frame perfect, you suffer placebo effect.

Wow do you even read? And how does this discredit me more than it does you?

My proof is frame data. Your proof is pure empty bull**** saying I'm maximizing depth and character potential which is flat out untrue. .

Yes your right. This is very untrue. You are not maximizing depth and character potential. Glad we agree

Your facilitating combos on any SHFFL combo characters whereas providing no overt benefit on any of the other portions of the cast. limiting options, limiting depth

If you have been reading, maybe you would have caught the line where I said that we would be lowering hitstun so that the hitstun talented comboers don't become godlike as well

You are the one who plays falcon and ganon, so don't even try it. How about you suggest speeding up his aerials 5% more again too? That was an awesome idea! Clearly my concern is Captain Falcon and not character balance!

I'm the one who plays falcon and am the one suggesting to help the heavies more than you. I'm the one who is willing to practice harder to get good combos instead of it having it given to me. But I'm clearly balancing this game around falcon for sure.

Justifying this by counterpick is the worst idea ever. What this does is heightens the disparity of most of the weaker characters in the cast. Therefore, it makes playing a higher tier more favorable as they have better options out of tumble. This means you are less likely to choose a character than before and will make the situation even worse.

NASL hurts many top tiers too. Diddy and Fox are two prime examples. It is not nearly as biased as the tumble code is.

So the top tiers are unaffected by this as well I guess. It clearly doesn't affect them at all. Gotcha

All you've said so far is personal taste and flawed arguments. Oh heys lets buff captain falcon again too!

I fail to see how my argument is flawed seeing how I proposed a game that fits the styles of the characters. How you fail to see how this hurts everyone a little and helps the heavies more is beyond me.

PLaying favorites? Hey guys lets buff falcon aerials some more!

Ad hominem is a terrible argument. I clearly gave examples of how you are playing favorites and how my suggestions actually promote better character balance yet you refuse to see that fact for whatever reason.

I'm done now, off I go!

Me too. I'm done arguing against someone who doesn't read and doesn't give any effort in countering points on the other side and resorts to ad hominem as their primary argument. Just wait until we get more space.

Can you still jump out of tumble with the NAT code?

Sonic is a horrible combo character. Hes the worst in the game right now.

yes you can. You can even buffer a jump into a buffered air dodge. The only thing this code affects is the air dodge. You need to wiggle out (which is easy) before you can air dodge. This benefits the heavies greatly

 

[Teronist09]

This benefits the heavies greatly

But wouldn't that only be true when they go on offense? a character like Ganon who has little to no defensive options beneath him, as well as few to cover his front, is forced to jump out of tumble or take the hit, unless it can be shown that the extra frames needed to airdodge don't change his ability airdodge and avoid attacks. And even then it would rely on you knowing when hitstun ends and tapping out within a certain window of time, no?

 

[Adetque]

You need to wiggle out (which is easy) before you can air dodge.

What exactly do you mean by this?

 

[leafgreen386]

For those of you wondering what shanus and kupo are talking about with "leaf's latest math," this is what I posted in the broom under the title of "Hitstun: We have a problem."

---

However much I love the placebo effect, sometimes it really fricking sucks.

I'm sure you've heard me say a million times that the hitstun equation is:

h = m*l / d

Where H is hitstun in frames, M is the multiplication constant (what we edit), L is the launch speed of the move, and D is a char spec division constant where chars with faster fall accelerations (at least in normal brawl) were given higher values to reduce their stun (this value can be a whole number 32, 33, 34, 35, or 36).

So what am I trying to say with this thread? Well, let's do a little math. The hitstun we were using for a while which we have only recently said is too easy to escape is .484. The hitstun we have decided to set it at now is .4865, and apparently it "feels a lot better." But by how much did the hitstun of moves actually increase? The hitstun with this new setting lasts approximately 1.005165x as many frames as it did with the lower setting. Doesn't sound like a lot, does it? Yeah... using a move that has 3000 launch speed (for a point of reference, marth's tipper fsmash on a 0% pit has a launch speed of 2965) against a character with a 34 (average) division constant produces 43 frames of stun with .484 hitstun. The same move at .4865 produces... 43 frames of hitstun. Kupo has it down at .48, which would also give 43 frames of stun. Notice a problem here? These small minute changes in hitstun aren't going to affect anything by more than a single frame, if that.

Now, there is another variable in the hitstun formula: the division constant. Let's try playing around with that, some. Using .485 as a multiplier, let's try a 3000 launch speed move against a character with a 32 division constant and against a character with a 36 division constant (the two extremes). The 32 character suffers 46 frames of hitstun. The 36 character suffers only 41 frames of hitstun. That's a 5 frame difference, which is considerably more than we were getting with changing the multiplier.

Can you see how we've been tricking ourselves with these values, now? We've all been under one huge placebo this entire time. We play for a while, think "oh, the hitstun is too high," try a lower value, and because we think we can escape more, we actually try to do so, and thus succeed more frequently. Or we think "hey this is too low" and turn it up slightly, and we start feeling like we can combo easier now. It doesn't help that the human mind tends to remember events that we consider to be "strange" or "out of the ordinary," and just sort of glosses over the stuff we perceive to be "common" or "insignificant." So certain things are going to stand out when we're doing these tests more than others, thus making us think we need to go higher or lower with the hitstun. It doesn't help that there can be (relatively) large variances in hitstun across different characters, which may or may not have received an appropriate amount of gravity for their division constant, thus amplifying the effect one way or the other. And this is all coming back to shape our opinions on if whatever insignificant change we made to the hitstun constant is "good."

If we want to make hitstun appropriate for all characters, we're going to need to do one of two things: 1) give all characters the same gravity modification, so that their fall speeds are still in proportion with their division constants, or 2) get a modifier for the char spec division constant allowing us to give each character their ideal division constant that correctly compensates for their gravity. We are also going to need to make more drastic changes to the multiplication constant if we want to see any significant effect.

Oh yeah, and just for the fun of it... remember when we were at "12%" hitstun (.52)? Well, a 3000 launch speed move on a 34 division constant character would deal 46 frames of hitstun; that's only 3 frames more than is dealt out with our current hitstun constant!

edit: And for those who think the formula is wrong...

I just verified that it is correct by using the frame advance debug code. I used a hitstun multiplier of 1.0 and set gravity equal to zero, so the attacked character would just float there while they were in hitstun, and you could clearly see the transition into the tumble. During the last frames of hitstun, the character is in the exact same position for that duration, and the first frame they begin to move again is when the tumble starts.

I tested luigi's upB against a 0% fox, which produces a launch speed of 4571. Fox's division constant has been shown to be 36. So using the formula, the hitstun should come out to be 127 frames. I counted 125 frames, which I'm willing to attribute to an error in counting.

If you want to test this yourself, feel free to try it using this codeset:

RSBE01
Smash Bros Brawl (US)

Debug Pause (GCC)
* 80000000 805B8A08
* 0402E5AC 8819000B
* 4A000000 804DE470
* 38000000 EFFF1000
* 86410000 00000001
* E2000001 00000000
* 4A000000 805B8A08
* 3A000002 00FF0000
* 12000002 00000001
* E2000001 00000000
* 4A000000 804DE470
* 38000000 FFEF0010
* 4A000000 805B8A08
* 3A000002 FF000000
* 12000002 00000100
* E2000002 00000000

Frame Advance
* 041E6CD8 4BE1C128
* 041E6D1C 4BE1C114
* 06002E00 00000068
* 9421FF80 BC410008
* 7CE4402E 7CE738F8
* 7CE73039 3864FFC0
* 7CE3412E 7CC4412E
* B8410008 38210080
* 60000000 481E3EB0
* 9421FF80 BC410008
* 7C03202E 3DC01000
* 7DCE70F8 7C007039
* 740E0408 3DE00408
* 7C0E7800 40820008
* 64001000 B8410008
* 38210080 481E3EBC

Hitstun mod (1.0)
* 02B88F48 00030001
* 04B87AA8 3F800000

Grav x0

Grav x0 P1
* 4A000000 90180F20
* 140000E0 00000000
* E0000000 80008000

Grav x0 P2
* 4A000000 90180F7C
* 140000E0 00000000
* E0000000 80008000

Grav x0 P3
* 4A000000 90180FD8
* 140000E0 3DCCCCCD
* E0000000 80008000

Grav x0 P4
* 4A000000 90181034
* 140000E0 3DCCCCCD
* E0000000 80008000

 

[kupo15]

But wouldn't that only be true when they go on offense? a character like Ganon who has little to no defensive options beneath him, as well as few to cover his front, is forced to jump out of tumble or take the hit, unless it can be shown that the extra frames needed to airdodge don't change his ability airdodge and avoid attacks.

But this isn't ganon specific (unless your mk which is the exception in all aspects to this game). With this code, being on the defensive is the same, there isn't much of a change between characters. Everyone can jump out just as quick, everyone can fast fall the same time, everyone can still jump aerial or jump air dodge and still have air dodges to help them come back. Everyone has options beneath them, but it all depends on the situation which is kinda hard to argue with seeing how there are so many variables to consider. Also, a compensation would be to lower hitstun so you can get out of it so you can have more time to wiggle out. Its not like you will always have no time to wiggle. But this code benefits the heavies a lot more when being on the offensive than the combo characters.

But also, I don't see why it is taboo to force a jump but its ok to force an air dodge.

Here are two matches with my ganon friend. Its not as blown out of proportion as everyone says it is. There is one situation where I forced him out to the right and punished his tumble because he forgot the code was on. But you can clearly see he could have wiggled out to air dodge or used a side b and fast fall to turn the tables on me. You can also clearly see in I think the first one around :56 where he used the tumble codes and perfect positioning to attempt a safe fair. If it wasn't for the tumble codes, I could have easily air dodged and punished him; essentially punishing him for maintaining great positioning and taking away my option. I "could" have wiggled and ADed in time but wasn't confident in my ability to do so which is why I chose to jump.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=umjVJbdeT5A&feature=channel_page
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQBtEY0V5XQ&feature=channel_page

And even then it would rely on you knowing when hitstun ends and tapping out within a certain window of time, no?

If you chose to tap out. You can still jump, fast fall, or attack.

What exactly do you mean by this?

All you have to do is tap left or right once and you can air dodge. Maybe I should make a video.

I don't see why people give melee air dodge so much play testing but not for this. Its just shoved under the rug. I believe this is something that will be on a podcast. Dark sonic and kupo vs shanus and ???

 

[Teronist09]

But this isn't ganon specific (unless your mk which is the exception in all aspects to this game). With this code, being on the defensive is the same, there isn't much of a change between characters. Everyone can jump out just as quick, everyone can fast fall the same time, everyone can still jump aerial or jump air dodge and still have air dodges to help them come back. Everyone has options beneath them, but it all depends on the situation which is kinda hard to argue with seeing how there are so many variables to consider. Also, a compensation would be to lower hitstun so you can get out of it so you can have more time to wiggle out. Its not like you will always have no time to wiggle. But this code benefits the heavies a lot more when being on the offensive than the combo characters.

But the if the jump it predicted, the punishment will often times be much worse than if you'd just attempted wiggling out and airdodging, whether you suceed or not. The best option Ganon would have out of jump it to airdodge, assuming the other player knows to approach from below and not come up at his face because Ganon has few options in front of him and has a blindspot underneath. If the jump is predicted and you don't AD out of it in time, you could be offstage with no jumps, ready for a gimp. If you do buffer the AD correctly, you get punished after the animation ends and are in the same situation.

But also, I don't see why it is taboo to force a jump but its ok to force an air dodge.

AD without NAT is the universally safe option. If there are indeed situations where wiggling into AD isn't viable because the time frame required is either too strict or there actually is no chance to preform it, can you prove that jumping into AD or an attack will be anything but the only option available?

Here are two matches with my ganon friend. Its not as blown out of proportion as everyone says it is. There is one situation where I forced him out to the right and punished his tumble because he forgot the code was on. But you can clearly see he could have wiggled out to air dodge or used a side b and fast fall to turn the tables on me. You can also clearly see in I think the first one around :56 where he used the tumble codes and perfect positioning to attempt a safe fair. If it wasn't for the tumble codes, I could have easily air dodged and punished him; essentially punishing him for maintaining great positioning and taking away my option. I "could" have wiggled and ADed in time but wasn't confident in my ability to do so which is why I chose to jump.

That's a matchup that is already 50-50, or even slightly in Ganon's favor. What about vs a character with greater range than that of Falcon (Ganon's bad matchups)?

I'm understand what you're saying about getting a buff on offense, but I don't think that justifies a possible defensive nerf. Realistically no one is going to be frame perfect on a consistant basis, so if there are any situations where wiggle to AD is not viable because of the added time where one cannot AD I feel it warrants excluding the code altogether. I came to brawl+ first and foremost hoping for character balance that is not present in vbrawl. If you want NAT included I feel you should be trying to provide evidence that even if there are situations for certain cast members where AD out of tumble is absolutely not an available option that they still have one that won't punish them to an unnessicary degree.

 

[Shell]

@leaf:

*head explodes*

Wow, that's impressive that the placebo effect worked so well. All of the character's physics are so good right now that it'd be amazing if the coders could find a way to do plan B.

 

[Almas]

The biggest problem with finding said Plan B is that the game doesn't use the values leaf mentioned. There's some form of scaling factor. Our launch speed of "3000" are really speeds of like 2-3 in the game's memory.

Between the two variables, the scaling factor would cancel out, but it clearly makes it impossible to search for them directly.

There are a couple of ways it could be found, though, depending on the complexity of the ASM code behind hitstun. I'll have to remember to have a look at it.

 

[spunit262]

Launch speed (knockback) Modifier V2 [Phantom Wings, spunit262]
C2744A04 00000012
90030024 3C008180
815C0028 816A0008
816BFFFC 7C0B0000
4080000C 816B0030
48000008 3960FFFF
814A007C 814A0038
38C204D4 811E0030
8526000C 2C090000
41820048 80E60004
7C083800 4082FFEC
7D20C671 7C005800
4082FFE0 5520043E
7C005000 4082FFD4
A8060008 2C00FFFF
41820008 9003001C
A806000A 2C00FFFF
41820008 90030024
60000000 00000000


Launch speed (knockback) Data [Phantom Wings, spunit262]
065A9800 00000018
II00MMMM ZZZZZZZZ
XXXXYYYY II00MMMM
ZZZZZZZZ XXXXYYYY
II charactor id
MMMM action id
ZZZZZZZZ collision bubble tag
XXXX Knock back increase due to damage
YYYY Base Knock back

 

[leafgreen386]

Today is truly an exciting day for brawl+. So if this code works, then today we will have gotten:

1) Knowledge that a stage size mod is possible
2) Chudat liking the game
3) A WORKING KB MOD!

Spunit and PW are gods.

 

[CloneHat]

Is messing with KB really necessary? It could take editing the game way out of hand. The more tools we get, the more power we have to completely change the game into something else, for better or for worse. In other Smash, you had to deal with what Nintendo gave you. With B+, everything is up to the people with the codes.

 

[cman]

Pardon my ignorance, but KB is what exactly?

 

[Shadic]

I'm going to assume knockback.

 

[Shell]

Certain moves like Sheik's f-tilt lock and Pikachu's d-throw chaingrab need to be fixed, no questions ask.

As for the old slippery slope argument for other changes, well, we've come this far, why start doubting our choices now? I'm sure that same has been said of move speed, but that's worked out fine so far, right?

Thanks sp unit!

 

[Ulevo]

Is messing with KB really necessary? It could take editing the game way out of hand. The more tools we get, the more power we have to completely change the game into something else, for better or for worse. In other Smash, you had to deal with what Nintendo gave you. With B+, everything is up to the people with the codes.

It's up to the community to decide how those codes will be used, along with those in the WBR. This is not necessarily a bad thing, as I'm quite sure the community will have the best of intentions to improve the game without drastic alterations.

In any case, we need the knock back modifier in order to tweak characters so we can improve them. One example is Jigglypuff.

 

[OK'Ssuka?]

Edit: SHeLL beat me to the punch.

 

[The Cape]

We need it mostly for only a few moves like:

MK dair
Sheik F tilt
Pika D throw
MK Shuttle Loop

And thats really it.

 

[CloneHat]

It's really useful, I just don't want things to get out of hand like "X character has trouble killing so let's make his smashes more powerful."
I just want to make sure that when the dust settles, everyone has their weaknesses.

 

[Almas]

I'm confused by the purpose of the collision bubble tag, spunit. I noticed from a quick peek at the code that most moves share 2 or 3 common tags (if you're looking at the same value that PW was using).

Are you referring to a different value, or do the tags do different things?

Either way, you are an awesome mangz. Sucks we kinda have to wait until a line extension, though.