COMPETITIVE Brawl+: Code Agenda

[cAm8ooo]

Soo... you want to buff fox? Who is already one of the best characters in brawl+. Seems a little biased.

 

[abcool]

Let me put it like this half of the cast can DI while using projectiles EXCEPT a few and fox happens to be one of them..now do you understand. It needs a fix globally not just for fox
edit: how am i buffing fox if i can move slightly backwards of forward while lasering, letting off 3 lasers with a full hop and 2 with a SH, yea man that really overpowered, I think i can kill a meta with lasers that don't even make another character flinch, omg cam8ooo i totally understand what you are saying now..

 

[Ulevo]

Let me put it like this half of the cast can DI while using projectiles EXCEPT a few and fox happens to be one of them..now do you understand. It needs a fix globally not just for fox

I don't see the need to give him mobility during the lasers, as you can just move prior to the use of the move. However, we do intend on implementing fast fall neutral specials, which will speed up his lasers.

 

[abcool]

I don't see the need to give him mobility during the lasers, as you can just move prior to the use of the move. However, we do intend on implementing fast fall neutral specials, which will speed up his lasers.

So umm try running with fox and retreat lasers with the new momentum code and Do it by the edge while playing me...oh yea like i said i am the true fox main. You'll go flying off of the sides with no control over yaself, with momentum fox loses the control he has over his retreat laser game...have any of you tested this or let me guess you just uptilt spam till the sun goes down

 

[Ulevo]

So umm try running with fox and retreat lasers with the new momentum code and Do it by the edge while playing me...oh yea like i said i am the true fox main. You'll go flying off of the sides with no control over yaself, with momentum fox loses the control he has over his retreat laser game...have any of you tested this or let me guess you just uptilt spam till the sun goes down

If you plan on making suggestions for modifications on characters, I suggest you explain a reason as to why we should implement this feature immediately after the said suggestion.

I also suggest that you refrain from being rude about your explanations as well.

 

[abcool]

If you plan on making suggestions for modifications on characters, I suggest you explain a reason as to why we should implement this feature immediately after the said suggestion.

I also suggest that you refrain from being rude about your explanations as well.

Ok. i was being a bit rude, it's just i have been posting a while and was being ignored, but i do realise we think alike via the NAt code, so i am sorry, but anyway, wolf can Di while he uses lasers so i am guessing sakuria messed up on this or something. I was just saying that fox is already nerfed in his laser game because he got the cap nerf and wolf has buffs to his lasers PLUS the DI so how could fox be seen as OP. I don't get it really.

 

[cooler1339]

I'm all for momentum of everyones projectiles. I wish all Links bomb should come out slightly faster. And pits arrows should be slower. Falco should only manage 1 shot on a short hop as well(he can do 2 right?). I hate projectile spam.

 

[abcool]

I'm all for momentum of everyones projectiles. I wish all Links bomb should come out slightly faster. And pits arrows should be slower. Falco should only manage 1 shot on a short hop as well(he can do 2 right?). I hate projectile spam.

It's not really momentum, play melee jump with fox and use lasers, when you do hold back on ya joystick, but not for long lol you'll illusion to ur death, but that is what i am talking about, next pick samus and then use ur missiles and hold back...bam that is what DI with it means

 

[Greenpoe]

Fox's lasers already eat away at shields, he doesn't need DI during lasers, too.

 

[Rudra]

Fox's lasers already eat away at shields, he doesn't need DI during lasers, too.

You'd also have to consider that Fox is usually moving around when using his lasers. I doubt it's often that during a match a Fox player would start using grounded lasers with the risk of the opponent ADing towards them instead of shielding.

 

[kupo15]

I don't believe this no DI while using projectiles nerfs characters like link and samus not to mention spacies and ya'll here wasting time with taunt canceling...that needs to be fixed firstly it is as bad as the triple jump glitch. c'mon, kupo i thought you said PW was working on it... edit: nvm i heard pw just finished his project the color hack...thing. anyway just try to focus on fixing the broken mechanics first.

I think requesting spunit to make a character specific knockback code that includes both base kb and scaling kb should be more of a priority.

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Just because you can't use air dodge to escape, doesn't mean you can't escape. You have 3 other options to escape with. Does NAT automatically give you these 3 options? No. The game does (except FF during tumble, which is as pointless as NAT)

Yes, the game gives you these options, but the code gives you the depth of decision making to actually consider using these other options. Without this code, there is no point in using another option when air dodging is the best. This is why this code adds depth.

I can see the metaphor, but ADing is not Meta Knight. It has counters. If you're hit high enough up that an AD won't get you to the ground, I can predict your airdodge and hit you during cooldown.

I feel like we are going in circles because I already, clearly addressed this point as did dark sonic. We have said multiple times that predicting the air dodge is not the problem. We are saying that the reward for predicting the air dodge is less than if you were you not even attempt the air dodge and get hit when you exit stun. This means that if your unsure about how to react when escaping from hitstun, the best thing to do is air dodge because regardless if its predicted and punished, the reward to the punisher is less from the predicted air dodge then it would have been not attempted at all. I predicted you yet my reward is less?? This is essentially giving the comboed a "get out of jail free" card.

"Isn't balanced": why do you have to balance all the options and make them equal? Kirby's bair is his best aerial, used in the majority of situations from approach to punish to edgeguard. Should we nerf it? No. Kirby's fsmash is his best kill move. Do we prevent you from comboing into it? No. It's his best option for onstage kills 9 times out of 10, but that doesn't mean it isn't balanced.

Because options are depth and decision making is depth. Just because you have options doesn't make it depth if one option is superior to the others. The options have to be balanced to add the most depth. This was one counter to not using Wavedashing. It adds options to the ground game yes, but by adding this, you also overshadow the other ground options present. So in this case, adding another option is anti depth.

Should we nerf kirby's moves to balance it with the rest? No not necessarily. You could buff the other more useless moves to add depth to his character as well but then you have to consider if this imbalances kirby. But buffing is not an option in balancing this problem we have. How would you buff the other options to bring it up to the level that air dodging is at without changing another aspect of the game or imbalance said character? (as in, making said characters aerials faster or jumps higher would also affect other aspects of gameplay not related to the tumble or comboing whereas nerfing the tumble fixes the balance problem and only affects this one aspect in gameplay)

I see this code as the equivalent but opposite of the No Stale Moves code. Stale moves makes you use more of your options. Removing that function (a decision that, imo, should be reversed when we get a kb code that can decrease the number of times a move can combo into itself) allows you to use only the better options, not having to worry that they get worse over time. NAT is the opposite, forcing you to think about the correct option, rather than having a preference for one.

So you are ok with the game punishing you for landing your moves?

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I dont want to get in the way of the war or w/e but what happened to that buffer/handicap code switch.... I dont think its in the opening post anymore.

Its on the list

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Give me examples of safe escapes for heavies that doesn't involve using my second jump or up+b leaving me as a sitting duck.

Whats wrong with using your up b to escape? The point is to escape and jumping is one way to effectively do this. If your opponent puts you in a position where he forces you to jump to be safe from his attack, whats wrong with this? Its your fault for getting yourself into the mess and the game gives you the tools to escape but it shouldn't be easy or else the reward doesn't equal the risk which is bad. I fail to see how forcing a jump is a heavy specific problem. I also fail to see why forcing an air dodge which (also leaves you being a sitting duck) is ok while forcing a jump is bad. This logic doesn't make sense to me.

You can have fun playing a game where it holds your hands combo'ing the big characters just so you can get that extra knee you couldn't before.

Wait, you just described your code set, not mine.

Also frame data response please? You asked what the safe options were for other characters and I cited them explicitly with frame proof on the previous page. If you consider low % combo juggles with prevalent horizontal DI, every move I mentioned has I love how just about every single poster on here ignores the part where I use data to support my arguments.

The fastest escape option out of tumble for bowser would be a jump on frame 1 or; you can also throw in a jump on frame 1 and starting the AD on frame 2. But this is all situational. Bowser's jump may be his fastest escape option but if the aggressor positioned himself above bowser to set up for a spike, jumping is no good then. Fast falling becomes the safest option.

It also depends on damage, how much ground the attacker could make up while in hitstun which also determines bowsers safe escape options. If the attacker is somewhat close by, then a wiggle air dodge can be a viable safe option. Wiggling is not hard and does not make air dodging an unviable escape option. There are situations where you can't perform it to escape without the risk of getting hit, and there are situations where you can wiggle and AD as a viable escape. This is not broken. But we can't argue situational points such as these due to all of the possible situations one can be put in.

On another note, we can make his aerials faster if we want to so that frame date might change which somewhat moots this point because you are arguing with unstable frame data that may change in the future. I've seen you discuss the possibility of doing so

Right now both players need to predict the other. I anticipate the air dodge and perform an empty jump. The player in tumble can use one of the buffered aerials to counteract this in advance. This still can happen with your code. However, the characters which can do it are very limited to about half of the cast. This is just one example of many.

I don't understand. If you predict an air dodge which turns out to be wrong and get caught off guard, then you are in the defensive. I also don't see how if this situation is the same for both of our code sets, how half of my characters can do it and all of yours can.

This is just one example of many. Yours eliminates any air dodge game whatsoever for the cast which has does not have a safe aerial exit.

Even for those who do have fast aerials, how does this not eliminate air dodging as a viable option for them as well?

Wiggling is not hard and does not make air dodging an unviable escape option. There are situations where you can't perform it to escape without the risk of getting hit, and there are situations where you can wiggle and AD as a viable escape. This is not broken. So making a blanketed statement such as "I am completely removing air dodging" as a viable escape option is ridiculous and untrue. You are also forgetting that jumping is a fast, viable option for escape as well.

How does this add more depth to the combo game. As a wiggle requires extra frames, it would be dumb to not buffer a jump in any tight situation, This serves to put the player in an even worse situation as now they are down a second jump ONLY because you removed their ability to air dodge effective. The combo is still broken. There is no more depth or yomi. All there is removal of options for half the cast.

How is this depth? How is this NOT depth is what I want to know. If you positioned yourself to take away options to force a jump, how is this bad? Its their fault for getting themselves in a situation where they get punished. They put themselves in a position for the attacker to take away options and force them to escape another way instead of being able to use the same, reliable strategy. How is this broken? That would be like me saying that No auto sweet spot ledges makes the ledge game broken because you take away the option of auto snapping to the ledge. (except not quite because you still have the air dodge option there, but not the AS)

Once again, why is it bad to force a jump but good to force an air dodge? Risk/reward system is depth and if risking myself results in a lesser reward, then why even risk it? Where is the depth? This results in a defensive and campy game where risk is not rewarded.

Come on, prove to me it is not a disadvantage to bowser. I'd like to see hard proof as to why. I have fortress in the air (no invincibility for frames 1-5, small/weak hitbox on frame 6 unless body is very close), and my second jump.

You have your second jump, second jump+ airdodge (and because its an infinite air dodge, you can do it again or even fast fall then air dodge which moves you quickly to the ground while invincible) a fast fall, wiggle and aerials. I probably didn't even name all the options you have but so far,hat is a lot of options!! It is impossible for the attacker to be able to remove all of these options at once (relating to strings, not true combos) which means that if you can't be cleaver enough to get yourself out of the messy situtation you put yourself in, you deserve to be punished. As I said before, its very situational so you can't just say he has no options to escape after hitstun by balancing air dodging so its not the scape goat every time. Another possible solution to the problem is "don't get hit"

Also, @ Eaode. You said character diversity for safe aerials out of tumble. However, your buffing the half of the cast which is clearly performing well in Brawl+ right now whereas nerfing the half that needs more help. This code serves nothing more than making combos easier.

But its not making combos easier because its not even touching hitstun at all. This code makes it so that escaping combos and/or minimizing damage isn't mindless similar to how the NAS works. You have viable escape options. Just because it isn't an air dodge doesn't mean its not viable nor a legit way to escape and this code does NOT guarantee you that you will/will not get comboed as a result of what you chose. If you are comboed and could do nothing about it, its called a "true combo" and if your complaining about it, you should lower your hitstun.

This code is called "no air dodging in tumble" NOT "no options in tumble"

 

[abcool]

Fox's lasers already eat away at shields, he doesn't need DI during lasers, too.

If you are playing at high levels of gameplay how in the world would someone stand there and shield uselss lasers..c'mon man give me valid points, besides wolf can still Di his lasers and you get gimp, give me an excuse for that.( i promised not to be rude ) anyway, wether you like it or not it has to be fixed because as it stand fox gains momentum during retreat lasers and he can be gimped for it, so ya point isn't vaild cause clearly you most play noobs to have someone shield lasers from fox.

 

[CountKaiser]

You say that you're not removing AD as an option.

Essentially, you are making it far less useful, since it would be impractical to wiggle and AD, which takes at best 4 frames, and at worst around 8 or 9 frames. It's usually better to just jump, Up-B, or do an aerial. In what situation would be the wiggle AD be useful?

Also, what if we simply add more lag to the end of the AD while in the air? Tat way, if you predict it, you can take advantage of the lag and knock them into the air again. This seems like a good compromise, yet I don't think people are listening to me.

 

[zxeon]

I don't think anyone is going to read that colossal post Kupo.

 

[matt4300]

I'm all for momentum of everyones projectiles. I wish all Links bomb should come out slightly faster. And pits arrows should be slower. Falco should only manage 1 shot on a short hop as well(he can do 2 right?). I hate projectile spam.

All awsome ideas. really


lol zxeon... I wanted to read it but I dont think the broom wants to use the code so I don't care about it that much anymore...

 

[CountKaiser]

@zxeon: I already have.

 

[kupo15]

You say that you're not removing AD as an option.

Essentially, you are making it far less useful, since it would be impractical to wiggle and AD, which takes at best 4 frames, and at worst around 8 or 9 frames. It's usually better to just jump, Up-B, or do an aerial. In what situation would be the wiggle AD be useful?

Not really. It doesn't take that long to wiggle out and it will be useful when they are close enough to lightly pressure you but not enough to where wiggling causes punishment. Ading is not made completely useless, just balanced with the other options

Also, what if we simply add more lag to the end of the AD while in the air? Tat way, if you predict it, you can take advantage of the lag and knock them into the air again. This seems like a good compromise, yet I don't think people are listening to me.

I've stated several times over that punishing the air dodge is not the problem. The problem lies in the fact that a mindless air dodge that gets predicted is still less punishment then attempting a move at all. So the risk vs reward system is compromised (you try to defend yourself which backfires, but the punishment is still less?)

Increasing the punishment window will do nothing in solving this problem

I don't think anyone is going to read that colossal post Kupo.

That's why I tried separating it by user. That's what happens when you are afk for half a day. Maybe I should double post.

also,

@zxeon: I already have.

this. Thanks for taking the time to read it

 

[CountKaiser]

So the problem isn't punishing the AD, it's that the AD is too safe, and punishing it yields less reward than punishing a jump or an aerial. So instead of trying to improve the reward for punishing the AD, you simply made the AD harder to do.

I would suggest increasing start-up lag, but that is essentially what the wiggle does in a roundabout manner.

Either way, I feel that the No AD during tumble just sidesteps the real issue, which is that punishing it doesn't yield enough reward. Do you have any ideas for fixing this, as I can't think of anything this late at night.

 

[GHNeko]

So the problem isn't punishing the AD, it's that the AD is too safe, and punishing it yields less reward than punishing a jump or an aerial. So instead of trying to improve the reward for punishing the AD, you simply made the AD harder to do.

I would suggest increasing start-up lag, but that is essentially what the wiggle does in a roundabout manner.

Either way, I feel that the No AD during tumble just sidesteps the real issue, which is that punishing it doesn't yield enough reward. Do you have any ideas for fixing this, as I can't think of anything this late at night.

Lengthen the total animation of the AD while decreasing the inviciframes of the AD. By increasing one, and decreasing other, you make the net window larger without altering the move itself much as compared to making much longer, or making the inviciframes much shorter.

That, or make the character with the worse AD the standard for everyone else.

 

[kupo15]

So the problem isn't punishing the AD, it's that the AD is too safe, and punishing it yields less reward than punishing a jump or an aerial. So instead of trying to improve the reward for punishing the AD, you simply made the AD harder to do.

we didn't make it harder to do per say because its really easy to be able to perform an AD. The code just makes it so that it won't work all the time and it is situational like the other options. But you basically get the idea of the reasons behind this.

I would suggest increasing start-up lag, but that is essentially what the wiggle does in a roundabout manner.

Either way, I feel that the No AD during tumble just sidesteps the real issue, which is that punishing it doesn't yield enough reward. Do you have any ideas for fixing this, as I can't think of anything this late at night.

The only problem about changing the air dodge itself is that not only will that "possibly" solve the problem, (not really imo) but it also changes the entire mechanic of the air dodge for the whole game. I can't think of any other way to nerf the air dodge in this single aspect in gameplay without having it affect other aspects of the game in a negative way other than tapping once to escape the tumble

 

[CountKaiser]

I think Kupo's problem with AD is that it puts the user in a better position while making them invulnerable, and as such even if it is predicted, you can't harm the user until they are in a better position. Lowering the invincibility frames may not help enough in Kupo's eyes.

Edit for slow posting: The code made it so that you have to wiggle, then AD. You can achieve the same affect by increasing the start-up lag of the AD by a few frames.

 

[kupo15]

I think Kupo's problem with AD is that it puts the user in a better position while making them invulnerable, and as such even if it is predicted, you can't harm the user until they are in a better position. Lowering the invincibility frames may not help enough in Kupo's eyes.

Basically. You even if you air dodge it, you lose the positional advantage you stated because the air dodge allows them to drift to a better position thus your hard work is wasted and there is not much reward here.

Also , you can't alter the properties of the air dodge because it will nerf air dodging as a whole which is not what we want at all. We don't want to completely nerf air dodging in all aspects of the game, just a slight nerf in this one situation. What your proposing nerfs the air dodge thus the entire defense game more than wiggling does

 

[Rubyiris]

So umm try running with fox and retreat lasers with the new momentum code and Do it by the edge while playing me...oh yea like i said i am the true fox main. You'll go flying off of the sides with no control over yaself, with momentum fox loses the control he has over his retreat laser game...have any of you tested this or let me guess you just uptilt spam till the sun goes down

Fox's retreating laser game is amazing with this current b+ code set. If you have problems controlling how Fox plays, you need to play him in b+ more. Fox is amazingly mobile in b+.

 

[Dan_X]

Let me put it like this half of the cast can DI while using projectiles EXCEPT a few and fox happens to be one of them..now do you understand. It needs a fix globally not just for fox

There is absolutely NO need for DI to be changed for Fox or Falco. There's simply NO need to fix something that isn't broken. I main Falco. I'm quite intimate with his laser game. He's incredibly versatile once you've mastered Falco--- especially with momentum. I'll be posting some videos within the next few days. Showing you guys how Falco SHOULD be played in Brawl+. I've recently taken to Fox. It's an easy transition for a Falco main, they play similarly enough. The only thing that took some effort was mastering the different timing on the short hop double laser. Fox's lasers are VERY effective. He's very quick, and, I use his lasers like I do Falco's as such I'm always shooting. Fox has excellent retreating lasers, that rack up damage. It's hard to punish this. So it's great defensively. Stop fussing about pointless things, I would never back any change to Fox or Falco of this nature, especially Falco, as he plays so wonderfully as it is now.

If you don't know what I'm talking about... wait until I post some matches. Falco is amazing! :D

Fox's retreating laser game is amazing with this current b+ code set. If you have problems controlling how Fox plays, you need to play him in b+ more. Fox is amazingly mobile in b+.

Exactly. Nothing needs to be changed with regards to Falco or Fox. It takes some skill, but the dashed laser game is the most important. You know, dashing away, turning, jumping, double laser, all while moving away from the enemy. This is made even more powerful with momentum. Seriously, I love how Fox and Falco play. Falco especially, I'd have his kids. :D

 

[Team Giza]

With the lack of decay Fox's lasers rack up damage fast. He can already shoot them pretty quickly with short hops to rack up damage fast or damage your opponents shield greatly. Plus, Fox and Falco are some of the best characters in brawl+ currently. They dont need more buffs.

 

[Shadic]

I'm just going to say this - Buffing characters that are already good is stupid. Focus on characters that need more.

 

[SketchHurricane]

I just realized something: Doesn't FF during tumble make AD even more effective? Not only can you AD to avoid strings, but you can FF the AD to get even better positioning. Has anyone found this to be true?

 

[Dan_X]

With the lack of decay Fox's lasers rack up damage fast. He can already shoot them pretty quickly with short hops to rack up damage fast or damage your opponents shield greatly. Plus, Fox and Falco are some of the best characters in brawl+ currently. They dont need more buffs.

QFT...

Like I said, I'll be working to record some of my Falco matches. Unfortunately, I don't think I had the tag in replays code on! Oh well.

I just realized something: Doesn't FF during tumble make AD even more effective? Not only can you AD to avoid strings, but you can FF the AD to get even better positioning. Has anyone found this to be true?

Perhaps I'm wrong but, hasn't this already been found to be the case? I didn't think people were considering this code for that and other reasons. hmm.

 

[Heroes_Never_Die]

I just realized something: Doesn't FF during tumble make AD even more effective? Not only can you AD to avoid strings, but you can FF the AD to get even better positioning. Has anyone found this to be true?

I believe you would have to FF, wiggle to escape tumble, and then AD. So no.

 

[abcool]

There is absolutely NO need for DI to be changed for Fox or Falco. There's simply NO need to fix something that isn't broken. I main Falco. I'm quite intimate with his laser game. He's incredibly versatile once you've mastered Falco--- especially with momentum. I'll be posting some videos within the next few days. Showing you guys how Falco SHOULD be played in Brawl+. I've recently taken to Fox. It's an easy transition for a Falco main, they play similarly enough. The only thing that took some effort was mastering the different timing on the short hop double laser. Fox's lasers are VERY effective. He's very quick, and, I use his lasers like I do Falco's as such I'm always shooting. Fox has excellent retreating lasers, that rack up damage. It's hard to punish this. So it's great defensively. Stop fussing about pointless things, I would never back any change to Fox or Falco of this nature, especially Falco, as he plays so wonderfully as it is now.

If you don't know what I'm talking about... wait until I post some matches. Falco is amazing! :D



Exactly. Nothing needs to be changed with regards to Falco or Fox. It takes some skill, but the dashed laser game is the most important. You know, dashing away, turning, jumping, double laser, all while moving away from the enemy. This is made even more powerful with momentum. Seriously, I love how Fox and Falco play. Falco especially, I'd have his kids. :D

This what i am saying, the stages h brawl+ is already to small, retreat lasers are uselessif you can't have control when you enter the laser animation, this retarted and doesn't buff fox...maybe falco...fox's lasers only deals 3 damage at best. Anyway i was saying MOST characters got nerfed and needs it be fix not just spacies....wolf can already do it, explain that.

 

[Greenpoe]

If you are playing at high levels of gameplay how in the world would someone stand there and shield uselss lasers..c'mon man give me valid points, besides wolf can still Di his lasers and you get gimp, give me an excuse for that.( i promised not to be rude ) anyway, wether you like it or not it has to be fixed because as it stand fox gains momentum during retreat lasers and he can be gimped for it, so ya point isn't vaild cause clearly you most play noobs to have someone shield lasers from fox.

I'm not saying to spam lasers when they're right next to you.
When and why are lasers already very useful? When they're far enough away to spam without punishment. What happens then? The opponent must approach. My point wasn't "Fox spam laser equal shield break" but that when you're on one side of FD, and they're on the other, if Fox starts firing lasers, they need to approach (unless they have a reflector). It's not like Falco's lasers, which you can spotdodge all day long or perfect shield them, or Wolf's lasers, which you can just airdodge/shield, Fox's lasers force an approach, then, when they're close enough to the point that spamming lasers is no longer smart, Fox does what he does best: Approach!

Besides, Fox is already a great character. Don't buff those who already are amazing, or you'll have to rebuff everyone else.

 

[MK26]

So you are ok with the game punishing you for landing your moves?

What?

I want you to actually respond this time.

"I see this code as the equivalent but opposite of the No Stale Moves code. Stale moves makes you use more of your options. Removing that function (a decision that, imo, should be reversed when we get a kb code that can decrease the number of times a move can combo into itself) allows you to use only the better options, not having to worry that they get worse over time. NAT is the opposite, forcing you to think about the correct option, rather than having a preference for one. "

EDIT: and i didn't get a response for this:
"On a different note, can anyone justify the addition of these codes:
Dashdance
Hitlag reduction
Dash cancel
Shield during dashdance
FF during tumble
Powershield window mod

Not that I necessarily disagree with their addition; I just want to know why they were added."

 

[cAm8ooo]

EDIT: and i didn't get a response for this:
"On a different note, can anyone justify the addition of these codes:
Dashdance
Hitlag reduction
Dash cancel
Shield during dashdance
FF during tumble
Powershield window mod

Not that I necessarily disagree with their addition; I just want to know why they were added."

Dash dancing- Varies the approach options. Helps with the mind games.
Hitlag reduction-Before with things like CF knee, your opponent could easily DI the correct way because they had forever and a day to do it. Now your opponent must react more quickly to provide the best DI options. This also helps with the combo game.
Dash Cancel- Just a cool little tech.
Shield During Dashdance- Not exactly sure. Perhaps to just give you better defensive options out of a dashdance.
FF during Tumble- I have no idea. I dont even use this in my set and i know a few others dont.
Powershield Window mod- It was waay to easy to powershield before. Powershielding is your best defensive option, it shouldnt be so easy to do.

Also, maestro, i got abunch of kirby vids today. Ill be posting them after work tonight

 

[CountKaiser]

I've noticed that someone complained about brawl being aerial dominant, and that people with ground-based finishers are left in the dust due to aerials and such. While brawl+ is more aerial-based than Melee, does the ground game need some kind of spacing mechanic?

If it does, I'd like to put my idea of backpedaling back on the table.

 

[SketchHurricane]

EDIT: and i didn't get a response for this:
"On a different note, can anyone justify the addition of these codes:
Dashdance
Hitlag reduction
Dash cancel
Shield during dashdance
FF during tumble
Powershield window mod

Not that I necessarily disagree with their addition; I just want to know why they were added."

Seems to me like your trying to draw out a point, because these should be pretty self explanatory to any veteran smasher. But allow me to answer...

edit: cAm8oooo beat me, but here goes anyway

Dashdance / Dash Cancel
Buffs offense by adding options to the ground approach.

Hitlag reduction
Defensive nerf that reduces the window to SDI. Also enhances speed and overall flow of gameplay.

Shield during Dashdance
Has this been decided on? It buffs defense by reducing the vulnerability of dashdancing.

FF during tumble
Proposed as a defensive balance to the defensive nerf of the No AD in Tumble code. On it's own, it's a defensive buff that allows you to escape combos more effectively.

Powershield window mod
Decreases the likelihood of an "accidental" powershield, which happened often with the previous large window. Overall, a defensive buff that reduces the net benefit of reactive shielding.

Having thought about it, there should probably be some sort of code FAQ that explains the reasoning behind all codes.

 

[Revven]

Having thought about it, there should probably be some sort of code FAQ that explains the reasoning behind all codes.

Podcast is doing it tonight, don't worry about it.

 

[Greenpoe]

Shield During Dashdance- Not exactly sure. Perhaps to just give you better defensive options out of a dashdance.

Shield during dashdance actually does more than it says. You can, with this code, cancel your initial dash animation with shield. So, you can dash and immediately shield.

 

[shanus]

Kupo, thats a horrid solution to try and balance out characters. Speeding up aerials so you can't Air dodge during tumble. This code provides no benefits and hurts half the cast. This may be your preference, but the goal of this project is character balance. Characters should not have to waste a double jump because you said so. Their best option now is solely to jump because you deemed it so. Its so stupid and no way beneficial to this game. Don't fix what ain't broken. Especially when you try and fix something that isn't broken and break something else.

And to speed up bowser or ike or dorf, yo'd have to cut their start–up in half.

 

[Ulevo]

I am really adamant about Jump Canceled Grabs at this point. It would improve the grab game of many characters who are in desperate need for more viable options in to their grab game. I highly recommend this being our next priority.

 

[CountKaiser]

Okay, the problem with the AD.

Problem: Punishing it yields too little reward, as it puts the defender in a better position.

Solution: Make the AD harder to perform by adding extra input for it, thereby justifying the advantage it gives.

Problem with solution: People will eventually become skilled enough to AD outside of tumble, such that the solution won't make much of a difference.

People will become skilled enough to do this, I can assure you. What I can see this code doing, however, is separating the good players from the bad players.

There really is no simple solution to this, is there?

@ulevo: you mean after the KB modifier, right?