COMPETITIVE Brawl+: Code Agenda

[goodoldganon]

And I'd like to request a code that gives Kirby's inhale some actual hitstun, because I just learned that a succesful inhale on a Jigglypuff can be punished with Rest... :/

Ganon's Up-B has no hitstun on it either. The No AD in Tumble code fixes Ganon's problem at least.

 

[MK26]

Ganon's Up-B has no hitstun on it either. The No AD in Tumble code fixes Ganon's problem at least.

What problem would that be? The 'im above 90% damage so i can hit you right after you let go of me' one?

 

[kupo15]

Kupo, you're talking as though airdodging is some ban-worthy, broken tactic, bringing it "down to the level of your other 4 options". This code doesn't add anything, how many times do I need to say this? It implements a minor change that doesn't need to be added.

No, I never said air dodging in itself, as a whole was broken. I said that as an escape option, it surpasses the other 4 options which doesn't allow for any decision making when escaping combos. Its "always go for the air dodge" while the other 4 options are left in the dust.

It doesn't "add depth", it doesn't give me more options (i still have all of them), it's just a waste of line space that doesn't need to be implemented, whether or not GeckoOS 2.0 comes out.

Yes you still have your other options, but when this one option (air dodging) becomes the superior option 9 times out of 10, where is the depth from even considering your other options? Options mean nothing if they 4 out of the 5 are hardly used. That is like me saying that by giving MK 3 more moves than the rest of the cast that are as good as ganon's utilt, it increases the depth of his character. It doesn't because even though the options of those three added moves are there, they will never be used.

For some reason, I have a feeling that this post is more effective than anything I would write in reply to Kupo. But, either way...

Funny how when newcomers first try brawl+ and complain about the buffering code, everyone is like "deal with it. You will adjust" And when the same complaint happens with this code, the attitude takes a complete 180 and its all "they don't like it, we are scrapping it" even before they adjust.

What problem would that be? The 'im above 90% damage so i can hit you right after you let go of me' one?

Yes that one, except it happens even at 0% that ganon gets punished for connecting with a move

 

[Rudra]

It seems as though this debate will last for quite awhile. For the sake of codespace, it probably would be replaced with the Teching codes, but for the time being I'll replace a few others and test the No AD in tumble more. After reading a good deal of the posts here though, I'm leaning a bit more on DS' and Kupo's side.

Its not that ADing is broken or anything, but it is the best option in comparison, and it sounds like the code does add more of a "balance" to the options of escape while keeping ADing intact with just he flick of the thumbstick...(I dont really know how to explain it, but hopefully, some testing will help me to clarify this...)

 

[Swordplay]

I'm kind of an extremist on the issue. *To defensive minded*

I love the hitstun but would like to see no or less tumble. *personal view that will never be supported and I understand why*



Let's analyze the code at a higher level in terms of space.

Kupo, how many lines does it take up? Such a controversial code could leave room to add things like no auto jabs :D.

Also remember, the KB code is being worked on. We need to save room for that too.

 

[MK26]

No, I never said air dodging in itself, as a whole was broken. I said that as an escape option, it surpasses the other 4 options which doesn't allow for any decision making when escaping combos. Its "always go for the air dodge" while the other 4 options are left in the dust.


Yes you still have your other options, but when this one option (air dodging) becomes the superior option 9 times out of 10, where is the depth from even considering your other options? Options mean nothing if they 4 out of the 5 are hardly used. That is like me saying that by giving MK 3 more moves than the rest of the cast that are as good as ganon's utilt, it increases the depth of his character. It doesn't because even though the options of those three added moves are there, they will never be used.

And what's the problem with this? What's so bad about airdodging to escape? I'm not disagreeing with the statement, but with the conclusion. You're telling me what you perceive to be a problem, and how to fix it...but it isn't a problem. And even Ganon's utilt has uses

Yes that one, except it happens even at 0% that ganon gets punished for connecting with a move

And No AD in Tumble fixes it? How does that happen?

 

[kupo15]

It seems as though this debate will last for quite awhile. For the sake of codespace, it probably would be replaced with the Teching codes, but for the time being I'll replace a few others and test the No AD in tumble more. After reading a good deal of the posts here though, I'm leaning a bit more on DS' and Kupo's side.

Its not that ADing is broken or anything, but it is the best option in comparison, and it sounds like the code does adds more of a "balance" to the options of escape while keeping ADing intact with just he flick of the thumbstick...(I dont really know how to explain it, but hopefully, some testing will help me to clarify this...)

I'm kind of an extremist on the issue. *To defensive minded*

I love the hitstun but would like to see no or less tumble. *personal view that will never be supported and I understand why*



Let's analyze the code at a higher level in terms of space.

Kupo, how many lines does it take up? Such a controversial code could leave room to add things like no auto jabs :D.

Also remember, the KB code is being worked on. We need to save room for that too.

No you guys, I completely agree with not including it at this line crunch. I'm thinking ahead for when we are free from this restriction

And what's the problem with this? What's so bad about air dodging to escape? I'm not disagreeing with the statement, but with the conclusion. You're telling me what you perceive to be a problem, and how to fix it...but it isn't a problem.

There is absolutely no problem in air dodging being a viable escape option and this code won't make air dodging unviable at all. I have a problem with it being the best solution to escape combos over the other 4 options 9 times out of 10 when it should be the best option in some situations. Because of this, the combo game lacks depth and that is the problem

And even Ganon's utilt has uses

You get the picture

And No AD in Tumble fixes it? How does that happen?

I wish I knew

 

[MK26]

Let's analyze the code at a higher level in terms of space.

Kupo, how many lines does it take up? Such a controversial code could leave room to add things like no auto jabs :D.

Also remember, the KB code is being worked on. We need to save room for that too.

7 lines. The first seven lines I removed when I added the tech fix.

No you guys, I completely agree with not including it at this line crunch. I'm thinking ahead for when we are free from this restriciton

Again, this is that 'we can, therefore we must' attitude. Just because we have nearly unlimited code space doesnt mean we need to use some of it on such a trivial, useless code

 

[Shell]

The first time I tried the No AD code I didn't have a working teching code and I still had the hitstun set at the normal value, so I naturally didn't enjoy it very much.

That said, I'd be willing to give it another go in the future.

 

[kupo15]

Again, this is that 'we can, therefore we must' attitude. Just because we have nearly unlimited code space doesnt mean we need to use some of it on such a trivial, useless code

Not at all. I think my reasons explained why this code isn't trivial or useless. Its just that, when we have more line space, this code will be more accepting because it won't take priority over other codes like we have now. I'm certainly aware of not making codes and implementing codes because we have the line space and I don't feel this code falls under that category in the slightest

The first time I tried the No AD code I didn't have a working teching code and I still had the hitstun set at the normal value, so I naturally didn't enjoy it very much.

That said, I'd be willing to give it another go in the future.

Cool. It is a little annoying at first because your not used to it, (much like any other new code we get) but once you adjust, its not bad at all and it fits really well.

 

[MK26]

There is absolutely no problem in air dodging being a viable escape option and this code won't make air dodging unviable at all. I have a problem with it being the best solution to escape combos over the other 4 options 9 times out of 10 when it should be the best option in some situations. Because of this, the combo game lacks depth and that is the problem

So the combo game lacks depth because you can airdodge out of everything? What about baiting an airdodge and chasing? Techchases? Using an airdodge beater like Kirby's fsmash? The combo game isn't worse without NAT...it's different. NAT is a change we don't need to make.

Not at all. I think my reasons explained why this code isn't trivial or useless. Its just that, when we have more line space, this code will be more accepting because it won't take priority over other codes like we have now. I'm certainly aware of not making codes and implementing codes because we have the line space and I don't feel this code falls under that category in the slightest

I never said it was trivial or useless; it does have its merits. I said it was unnecessary, because the change is so minor and the mechanic only punishes the defender.

 

[kupo15]

So the combo game lacks depth because you can airdodge out of everything? What about baiting an airdodge and chasing? Techchases? Using an airdodge beater like Kirby's fsmash? The combo game isn't worse without NAT...it's different. NAT is a change we don't need to make.

Because even if you air dodge and get predicted, the reward for predicting the air dodge is still less. The punishment for getting your air dodge predicted is less then getting hit when you exit hitstun because you choice the wrong escape option. When the risk/reward system isn't balanced, then the combo game suffers and play starts becoming more campy and defensive.

 

[Swordplay]

Kupo I completely agree with you. 100% on your analysis on the problem.

Air dodging should NOT be the best alternative 9 times out of 10.

But instead of nerfing air dodging, is it possible to buff the other methods?

To fix the problem we must either boost other defensive options or nerf this defensive option.


It comes down to a matter of philosophy. Defense or offense.
*Personally I think we have boosted offense so much I wouldn't mind helping defense a little* (but thats just my defensive thinking mind again)

 

[Teronist09]

Because even if you air dodge and get predicted, the reward for predicting the air dodge is still less. The punishment for getting your air dodge predicted is less then getting hit when you exit hitstun because you choice the wrong escape option. When the risk/reward system isn't balanced, then the combo game suffers and play starts becoming more campy and defensive.

But then at a higher skill level when you have tapping out of tumble into airdodge down to a science, wouldn't the problem still exist? IF that is the case then all the code is doing forcing people who aren't used to it to get punished in the tumble, wiggle to get out or use their jump. A tech barrier keeping newcomers from preforming as well as they could if they had all their options available all at once without having to worry about when they get out of hitstun or inputting DI wrong trying to wiggle.

 

[kupo15]

Kupo I completely agree with you. 100% on your analysis on the problem.

Air dodging should NOT be the best alternative 9 times out of 10.

But instead of nerfing air dodging, is it possible to buff the other methods?

I don't see how you could. These are the options you have out of a tumble:

Air dodge
Attack
Jump
Fast fall in tumble
Jump Attack
Jump dodge

All of these options (without the code) can be done straight from the tumble, no wiggling required and all of them are reasonably balanced with each other except the air dodge. Its easier to nerf one then buff the rest and it makes more sense. Besides, even if you were to buff the other options somehow, I think air dodging will still be the better choice because your position changes while your invincible. So comboing and having positional advantage no longer happens because you put them in this position to limit their options, yet they can easily change this position defeating the entire purpose all together

But then at a higher skill level when you have tapping out of tumble into airdodge down to a science, wouldn't the problem still exist? IF that is the case then all the code is doing forcing people who aren't used to it to get punished in the tumble, wiggle to get out or use their jump.

No. This problem won't exist because it takes a little more time to wiggle and air dodge then to simply air dodge directly from the tumble. If the comboer is on top of you, the fraction of a second you take to wiggle to to attempt an AD is enough time for the string to connect

 

[Swordplay]

I see that could be hard. Okay, I guess I would support it if it balanced the game.

If you were to decrease out of tumble options though, I would like to slightly decrease tumble length to preserve the offense/defense balance we have. (hitstun would remain the same)

I hope I'm not ******** right? hitstun is not = tumble.

 

[Teronist09]

No. This problem won't exist because it takes a little more time to wiggle and air dodge then to simply air dodge directly from the tumble. If the comboer is on top of you, the fraction of a second you take to wiggle to to attempt an AD is enough time for the string to connect

In that case why not just modify when you can airdodge instead of forcing people new to brawl plus to learn a new technique that requires extra input? And would the second longer still be the universally safe option? The reason I prefer to have the code off is that above all airdodge was universally a safe option. Now if I tap too soon I get punished because I'm not used to the new mechanic and make guess when the hitstun is over wrong. This doesn't make me want to practice tapping out of tumble, it just makes me more likely to chance jumping out of tumble and risking getting hit either way for the sake of mobility.

I've also so far not found ff tumble to be at all useful, but thats just me...

 

[MK26]

I don't see how you could. These are the options you have out of a tumble:

Air dodge
Attack
Jump
Fast fall in tumble
Jump Attack
Jump dodge

All of these options (without the code) can be done straight from the tumble, no wiggling required and all of them are reasonably balanced with each other except the air dodge. Its easier to nerf one then buff the rest and it makes more sense. Besides, even if you were to buff the other options somehow, I think air dodging will still be the better choice because your position changes while your invincible. So comboing and having positional advantage no longer happens because you put them in this position to limit their options, yet they can easily change this position defeating the entire purpose all together


No. This problem won't exist because it takes a little more time to wiggle and air dodge then to simply air dodge directly from the tumble. If the comboer is on top of you, the fraction of a second you take to wiggle to to attempt an AD is enough time for the string to connect

But...how is being able to escape what you're supposed to be able to escape a problem? Does airdodging centralize the metagame or something? Is it as banworthy and detested by the community as MK? I simply don't see the point of implementing the code

 

[shanus]

Trust me MK26, we'll never see eye to eye with them. Everything you want to say, and everything they want to say has been said a million times back and forth.

 

[Blank Mauser]

I've been telling people that airdodging is always the best choice since a long time ago. Its kinda true, if we didn't want people to escape by using airdodge we'd switch to a nerfed airdodge already. This isn't really the best way to help the combo game.

Also, I feel slightly proud that MK26's signature relates to me in an offshoot kinda way. =D

 

[the_judge]

Though I personally found no issues with no AD in tumble. I don't think that you can write it off just because newcomers can't grasp it immediately. The wiggle issue is solved after finally understanding what you can and can't do at certain times. Most of the ppl who play this game own a copy, so they have no excuses.

Though I am all for putting combo and string concepts into B+, I don't believe ADing needs any further nerfing. With the no AD during tumble code we have eliminated the fact of it being "The only option." It still is a great option being a form of invincible movement, but it introduces a new concept of predicting. And once again, you can't write off having to predict AD's just because you can't do it right away with minimum practice.

All of these are minor inconviences, and once you get over them and have fully grasped the new techs/concepts that's when you really have "Depth."

 

[shanus]

No. This problem won't exist because it takes a little more time to wiggle and air dodge then to simply air dodge directly from the tumble. If the comboer is on top of you, the fraction of a second you take to wiggle to to attempt an AD is enough time for the string to connect

Exactly what I said is an issue. Characters like bowser get eaten alive by this. They do not have a safe exit strategy where chars like diddy do. How can you not see this!?!?!?!? Even as posted by DarkSonic, no player is consistently frame perfect, not even Silent_Wolf. As such, there is a 1-5 frame window it'll take for most players to consistently enter the tumble state. As such, any character without a safe exit strategy directly from the tumble is at an innate disadvantage compared to other members of the cast. What is a safe exit from a tumble? Example moves: diddy fair, MK nair/fair/dair, etc.

This is the stupidest discussion I've ever seen. Half of my posts which say this just get ignored and not mentioned again because its a KNOWN weakness of this code. Rather than confronting it, it is pushed aside in an attempt to convert more players saying all this idealistic bull**** without even acknowledging the consequences. This is buffing offense in a game where the offense is already dominant and nerfing any character reliant on defensive strategy. I don't care if this makes each each combo I pull as deep as my quantum mechanics course if it makes half the characters in game get the shaft, especially the characters who are already lacking NOW.

In conclusion, I question the skill, knowledge, and opinion of almost any player that doesn't immediately see the repercussions this has on the heavies. Plain and simple. This is broken. This is a biased code which amplifies "strings" aka true combos on heavies. I might as well do speed up the aerials of Falcon, Sonic, Fox, TL, Luigi, MK, Marth anda few others. That gives them more options too!

 

[Shortline999]

Exactly what I said is an issue. Characters like bowser get eaten alive by this. They do not have a safe exit strategy where chars like diddy do. How can you not see this!?!?!?!? Even as posted by DarkSonic, no player is consistently frame perfect, not even Silent_Wolf. As such, there is a 1-5 frame window it'll take for most players to consistently enter the tumble state. As such, any character without a safe exit strategy directly from the tumble is at an innate disadvantage compared to other members of the cast. What is a safe exit from a tumble? Example moves: diddy fair, MK nair/fair/dair, etc.

This is the stupidest discussion I've ever seen. Half of my posts which say this just get ignored and not mentioned again because its a KNOWN weakness of this code. Rather than confronting it, it is pushed aside in an attempt to convert more players saying all this idealistic bull**** without even acknowledging the consequences. This is buffing offense in a game where the offense is already dominant and nerfing any character reliant on defensive strategy. I don't care if this makes each each combo I pull as deep as my quantum mechanics course if it makes half the characters in game get the shaft, especially the characters who are already lacking NOW.

In conclusion, I question the skill, knowledge, and opinion of almost any player that doesn't immediately see the repercussions this has on the heavies. Plain and simple. This is broken. This is a biased code which amplifies "strings" aka true combos on heavies. I might as well do speed up the aerials of Falcon, Sonic, Fox, TL, Luigi, MK, Marth anda few others. That gives them more options too!

^^^^^^^

QFT

seriously.

 

[osh77]

With this out of the way lets start discussing MAD again.

Also note: sarcasm is high with this one.

 

[GHNeko]

With this out of the way lets start discussing MAD again.

Also note: sarcasm is high with this one.

Rofl. You forgot to dawn your flame suit.

 

[matt4300]

Exactly what I said is an issue. Characters like bowser get eaten alive by this. They do not have a safe exit strategy where chars like diddy do. How can you not see this!?!?!?!? Even as posted by DarkSonic, no player is consistently frame perfect, not even Silent_Wolf. As such, there is a 1-5 frame window it'll take for most players to consistently enter the tumble state. As such, any character without a safe exit strategy directly from the tumble is at an innate disadvantage compared to other members of the cast. What is a safe exit from a tumble? Example moves: diddy fair, MK nair/fair/dair, etc.

This is the stupidest discussion I've ever seen. Half of my posts which say this just get ignored and not mentioned again because its a KNOWN weakness of this code. Rather than confronting it, it is pushed aside in an attempt to convert more players saying all this idealistic bull**** without even acknowledging the consequences. This is buffing offense in a game where the offense is already dominant and nerfing any character reliant on defensive strategy. I don't care if this makes each each combo I pull as deep as my quantum mechanics course if it makes half the characters in game get the shaft, especially the characters who are already lacking NOW.

In conclusion, I question the skill, knowledge, and opinion of almost any player that doesn't immediately see the repercussions this has on the heavies. Plain and simple. This is broken. This is a biased code which amplifies "strings" aka true combos on heavies. I might as well do speed up the aerials of Falcon, Sonic, Fox, TL, Luigi, MK, Marth anda few others. That gives them more options too!

It probley does more harm than good for me to COMPLETELY agree with this post in every way... seeing as how the only real reason I do anything more than lurk here is Char Balance... and without more lines in geko os I can't even argue that anymore.
but I had to post... because this is a great post.

 

[Zodac]

but i like stale moves

 

[Revven]

but i like stale moves

And stale moves is an arbitrary mechanic that serves no purpose than to just get in the way of the match, slow it down, and not add anything to it at all. It forces you to use terrible moves that you shouldn't be forced to use at all. We can have variety on our own, we did it in Melee and Smash 64. Stale Moves also allows for stupid Utilt combos with Fox much more easier because of how each one stales the more you use it. It also nerfs KO power on every character etc.

There's way many more cons to it than pros.

What's with all these new people coming in here and posting/complaining about old codes that were discussed to death and decided ultimately that they would be in the final set regardless of what anyone else said? It's kinda bugging me... then again, this IS what the podcast will be for.

 

[Eaode]

ARGUMENTS FOR NAT:

- Airdodge is almost always the best option to escape a combo, as it is quick, and puts you in a much better position (especially if you can AD into the ground into shield and roll away etc.), so why wouldn't you airdodge?
This point has not been refuted by anyone.

- Because Airdodge is always the best option, it makes the other options useless. This destroys the balance, which destroys the choice, which destroys the DEPTH. With NAT, your escape options are more balanced, and thus you actually have to choose between several options, which is good. Remember how everyone dismissed Manual L-Cancel because it's extra tech skill without a choice? This puts more choice and depth into the game, so what's the problem?
MK26 has argued that it is unnecessary to add this depth. That it is being added just because it can. If we have the opportunity to add depth to the game, why shouldn't we? Dash Dancing, Dash Canceling, and NASL all add depth to Brawl+, but they are not "necessary". What determines what is necessary? I just see it as a way to throw your opinion into the argument. Again, "necessary" or not, if we have the means to ad depth, why shouldn't we?


ARGUMENTS AGAINST NAT:

- Destorys character balance...
I really don't understand how this makes sense. all characters will have to work more for the airdodge, so naturally those with a fast aerial will be able to use that. They already had that option, it was just overshadowed by airdodging most of the time. Having more options for situations like this is what makes characters good.

Furthermore, I fail to see how this vastly affects the heavies in a negative way. how much startup do the moves like Diddy's Fair, MK's Nair, etc. have? I know for sure that diddy's fair isn't that fast, and all of these aerials have some startup 5 frames or more (Mk's Nair maybe slightly less). you can wiggle out of tumble and airdodge in 5 frames if you're good at it, maing it just as viable an option (for everyone) as these aerials are for everyone. Also you can jump and airdode, which would usually be faster than wiggling and sometimes faster than these aerials. So now character's Airdodges are on par with these aerials, instead of being better than them.

IMO arguing character balance against a change like this is a cop-out. we've affected character balance in so many ways (Hitstun, ALR, Grab releases fix) that arguing this slight shift in character options completely breaks this balance and shafts the code is somewhat ridiculous.


I was very skeptical about NAT at first, and I still haven't fully adjusted to it (having not played against humans with it yet), but I really must side with Kupo on this one, because his argument is the only one that holds weight and makes sense, while the others seem to be desperate attempts to tear it down on technicality.


EDIT:

What's the depth in picking jump or counterattack over airdodge?

Also lol @ "What's the depth in choice?"

 

[Revven]

I don't know about you guys, but, without NAT I still choose to jump first instead of ADing. So, really, NAT doesn't change anything for me so... why not try jumping instead of wiggling and see how that goes? >_>

 

[shanus]

ARGUMENTS FOR NAT:

- Airdodge is almost always the best option to escape a combo, as it is quick, and puts you in a much better position (especially if you can AD into the ground into shield and roll away etc.), so why wouldn't you airdodge?
This point has not been refuted by anyone.

No, it is not always the best option out of an air dodge. I have given strict examples. You said you didn't think Diddy's fair is a good option out of tumble. Have you tried it? Do you realize how its a brick wall in priority? How about MK nair? Or g&w nair or dair? Do I need to keep listing examples? Just because you always mash air dodge doesn't mean everyone does. It can be quite easy to see that your opponent is going for this approach and punish them directly out of tumble. However, can you do that with bowser?

Some data:
-Fox has 3 moves he can directly buffer out of hitstun at less than 5 frames for hitbox.
-Lucario has dair on frame 5.
-Diddy has frame 4 nair, frame 5 bair, frame 6 fair
-Luigi nair on frame 3 (omgpriority anyone?)
-MK: Nair on frame 3, Dair 4-5 (to make a nice comparison, Air Dodge Lasts 39 Frames
Invincible Frames 3 – 28). So nair and AD come out on EQUAL frames.
-Squirtle, 1 aerial on frame 5, 2 aerials on frame 4

Bowser has nothing till frame 9 unless he tries to fortress them (FROM THE AIR ....), and that isn't out till frame 6 or 7.


I think you get the point (I really don't want feel like searching up any more frame data, I just rolled out of bed). So you can buffer these directly out of hitstun and in some cases, be even completely neutral with the option of air dodge in speed. So if someone needs to wait to see a hitstun exit, wiggle (miss approximately 3-5 frames even if they are good!), air dodge (wait another 2 more frames) they are approximately 5-7 frames post-hitstun to have a good option. The characters above who i listed all have options which can be guaranteed to initiate upon exit of hitstun w/ buffer and all connect before then. But poor old bowser, or ike, or any of them don't have these options. All they had before was buffered AD or jump AD. Do the hard numbers show you what I'm saying now? I'm not dreaming up a disparity. Its right there in front of you.

- Because Airdodge is always the best option, it makes the other options useless.

Well I just proved your main statement wrong. So yeah?

This destroys the balance, which destroys the choice, which destroys the DEPTH. With NAT, your escape options are more balanced, and thus you actually have to choose between several options, which is good. Remember how everyone dismissed Manual L-Cancel because it's extra tech skill without a choice? This puts more choice and depth into the game, so what's the problem?

Cuz you'd ever want to miss an L-cancel. Just like with a heavy, 99% you would ever want to air dodge or waste your second jump to just escape a trivial combo. Who are you kidding?

MK26 has argued that it is unnecessary to add this depth. That it is being added just because it can. If we have the opportunity to add depth to the game, why shouldn't we? Dash Dancing, Dash Canceling, and NASL all add depth to Brawl+, but they are not "necessary". What determines what is necessary? I just see it as a way to throw your opinion into the argument. Again, "necessary" or not, if we have the means to ad depth, why shouldn't we?

Because adding something isn't black and white. You just made an elaborate post saying the benefits, but dismiss the costs without even evidence besides a hunch? Well I just gave data which proved otherwise for a few random character boards.

I was very skeptical about NAT at first, and I still haven't fully adjusted to it (having not played against humans with it yet), but I really must side with Kupo on this one, because his argument is the only one that holds weight and makes sense, while the others seem to be desperate attempts to tear it down on technicality.


EDIT:
Also lol @ "What's the depth in choice?"

Wait, you haven't played any people with it either? I'm sorry but how can you even judge a code which is supposed to add depth when you are playing against a CPU? Its not desperate to tear it down on technicality. Its simple that it is a biased code.


SMK, jump instead of wiggle against my Fox. Its going to do you a lot of good. Especially as DK.

EDIT: Found some diddy frame data, and for SMK:

Donkey Kong's fastest option is frame 6 uair. If you tried to jump out, your adding 1 frame so you can be safe within an AD either on 4 (but be down a double jump AND moving higher in the air instead of lower) or have an aerial (at earliest by frame 7 or 8)

 

[goodoldganon]

@Eaode

Arguing a change affects the character balance is a viable argument. The code offers depth but at the cost of furthering the gap between the cast. Sure I suppose we can go back through and rebalance all the heavies and the few others adversely affected by the code, but it's extra time, work, and lines we shouldn't have to spend for the moderate amount of depth it adds. Even with the code, ADing is still the best option available as it was before. Except now I gotta spend 1-5 frames more wiggling to get it done first.

And as Falco said, I still jump out of combos without the code and sometimes, depending on my character, I can attack out of a combo too.

Either way I'm out. RE5 is out and I'm off to get that. See ya in a few days.

 

[Revven]

SMK, jump instead of wiggle against my Fox. Its going to do you a lot of good. Especially as DK.

and for SMK:

Donkey Kong's fastest option is frame 6 uair. If you tried to jump out, your adding 1 frame so you can be safe within an AD either on 4 (but be down a double jump AND moving higher in the air instead of lower) or have an aerial (at earliest by frame 7 or 8)

Huh, thanks for the frame info. Hitstun just kind of forces you to press jump (or mash it if you don't know when hitstun ends lol), it's mostly a habit for me once hitstun was included (and it's always been that option for me in Melee). But, if like I know jumping isn't the right option, I'll opt for AD'ing but I certainly don't spam AD or anything of the like without NADT. I had thought the majority of us agreed like, a month ago that AD'ing was nerfed quite considerably with the inclusion of hitstun? Well, I guess that's not the only real reason for the inclusion of NADT but you get my point.

 

[Eaode]

I'll show an example with a picture:

Let's say the Black rectangle is the attacking character that has just hit you to the right with some move.
Let's say the red line is their effective combo range without NAT and when the opponent airdodges, and Blue is the effective combo range with NAT and when the opponent airdodges, and the Green line is character that have a move that comes out in 5 frames or less. is it really that big of a difference, considering that for this desparity to come into play they would be JUST outside the combo range, and also considering that you can jump dodge (which would virtually be just as fast as airdodging with NAT, but without the clear imbalance in position)

with a compensated decrease in hitstun (that I've seen people adopt with this) a character doesn't get combo'd at more range than they did before, it only makes those characters who are able to utilize other options shine, instead of everyone having a blanket solution for the situation. This is called character diversity, and usually does go head to head with balance.


A main point I want to get across here again, is that it's really lame when a combo ends immediately after hitstun ends because they can just airdodge out. NAT gives a slight nerf to the airdodge so that strings become more of a part of the combo game and you can effectively blend them with combos and mindgame your opponents options.

Let's say you run up to Metaknight as you are comboing, and he tries to throw out a Nair to escape. Even though it's fast, you can predict it and run up ad shield to punish effectively because aerials have lag with them and are not invincible, versus an airdodge where they have invincibility until the hit the ground and the shield immediately and roll/dodge/whatever.

You see the difference? when they airdodge out the the combo they can get into a MUCH more neutral position (you standing in front of their shield with a tiny window to grab them versus them throwing an aerial out at you.). The instant airdodge is a very effective combo/string ender because it starts in 2 frames, has lots of invul, and can lead to a practically neutral situation. NAT makes attempting the airdodge a risk, because you might waster to much time wiggling, so you have to consider your other options. It adds balance, depth and charactr variety (which slightly alters character balance).

Please forgive me for not being able to play with anyone for like te past 4 days. I will get some matches with this in today.

EDIT: Less wall o' text'd

 

[shanus]

You completely ignored my frame data posted. Why? You just posted the same thing everyone else does while ignoring what I just said why AD'ing is not the best option when you buffer aerials.

Edit: Also, lowering hitstun would eliminate so many options for players who are with wiggles. It isnt gonna work below 8.5% :-\

 

[MK26]

But...how is being able to escape what you're supposed to be able to escape a problem? Does airdodging centralize the metagame or something? Is it as banworthy and detested by the community as MK? I simply don't see the point of implementing the code

Somebody respond to this.

And please, people, call me Ish Maestro

EDIT: i would respond to Eaode, but my quote does the job fairly well.
And that picture simply drives home my point - this is such a minor change that only serves to punish the defender with an unnecessary input

 

[Eaode]

the defender should not get a "get out of jail free" card either, MK26. adding depth doesn't need to be "necessary". The airdodge is not broken/banworthy, but it is a helluva lot better than the alternatives in many situations.

Shanus, your point about the character aerials was taken. Note the diagram. character that can utilize other options will obviously be better suited when we bring the best universal option (AD) down to the level of te others. When characters have different options in the same situation it's called character diversity, and yes it does usually go head to head with character balance.

Although if you want me to outright debate your numbers, I will admit that every since Kupo's infamous "Pit Frame Data" thread I have always been a little skeptical about Brawl frame data (and how it is collected). That being said I'm not dismissing the validity of the numbers outright.

 

[Phyvo]

Somebody respond to this.

And please, people, call me Ish Maestro

EDIT: i would respond to Eaode, but my quote does the job fairly well.
And that picture simply drives home my point - this is such a minor change that only serves to punish the defender with an unnecessary input

Your quote, (though perhaps not *everything* that you're saying), is based on an assumption that your opponent doesn't agree with at all. To argue effectively you need to find common ground and argue from *there*. Specifically...

What do you mean by "supposed" to escape? Whose supposition are we working with? Sakurai's? In his mind we were "supposed" to trip. This project changed that, and has changed a million other things. Therefore, simply because something in the game is already in the game for whatever reason doesn't mean that it shouldn't be changed. I mean, they aren't even trying to keep this in any way like vanilla Brawl. The project here is pretty much focused on making a true Brawl, the sequel that should have been, rather than simply modifying vanilla Brawl to make it more competitive. Now do you understand why your argument "But the game is already this way!" doesn't work? This projected is based on change. The people here want change. If they wanted to not change airdodge simply because it was that way in vanilla Brawl, they would be playing vanilla Brawl.

In order to convince your opponents of anything, you need to find the common ground. For instance: no one wants biased offense, and it would be hard to rebalance all the characters.

As for...

And that picture simply drives home my point - this is such a minor change that only serves to punish the defender with an unnecessary input

You didn't pay attention to them when they said that more options are better, did you? The image does show yes, that even with the input the combo range is not increased. However, the point of the *argument* is that with the extra input you get a wider variety of defensive/offensive situations for no cost other than the extra input, and you can get this extra depth without increasing comboability (that is, biasing offense too much).

 

[MK26]

the defender should not get a "get out of jail free" card either, MK26. adding depth doesn't need to be "necessary". The airdodge is not broken/banworthy, but it is a helluva lot better than the alternatives in many situations.

1) Airdodging is not a get out of jail free card all the time. Maybe sometimes. Not all the time.

2) This isn't depth. It's an input, for crying out loud!

3) And what's the problem with AD being better than the alternatives? Maybe edgehogging is better than the alternative forms of edgeguarding. So do we nerf edgehogging? No. That's stupid. It's a mechanic that was put into the game for a reason.
Being able to AD out of tumble is a mechanic that was put into the game for a reason. There is no benefit to taking it out.

EDIT:

Your quote, (though perhaps not *everything* that you're saying), is based on an assumption that your opponent doesn't agree with at all. To argue effectively you need to find common ground and argue from *there*. Specifically...

What do you mean by "supposed" to escape? Whose supposition are we working with? Sakurai's? In his mind we were "supposed" to trip. This project changed that, and has changed a million other things. Therefore, simply because something in the game is already in the game for whatever reason doesn't mean that it shouldn't be changed. I mean, they aren't even trying to keep this in any way like vanilla Brawl. The project here is pretty much focused on making a true Brawl, the sequel that should have been, rather than simply modifying vanilla Brawl to make it more competitive. Now do you understand why your argument "But the game is already this way!" doesn't work? This projected is based on change. The people here want change.

In order to convince your opponents of anything, you need to find the common ground. For instance: no one wants biased offense, and it would be hard to rebalance all the characters.

You're supposed to be able to escape when hitsun ends. That's the point of it ending - the combo is over. Your opponent can string together an attack if he reads your input. He shouldn't be able to continue the combo because a button input got in the way.

And this is another example of 'we can, therefore we must'. The project is "based on change"? Are you kidding? It's based on making Brawl a more competitive game. It's true that we have changed a lot, but do we need to fix every little thing, regardless of whether or not it was broken in teh first place?

As for...



You didn't pay attention to them when they said that more options are better, did you? The image does show yes, that even with the input the combo range is not increased. However, the point of the *argument* is that with the extra input you get a wider variety of defensive/offensive situations for no cost other than the extra input, and you can get this extra depth without increasing comboability (that is, biasing offense too much).

How many times do I have to say this. THIS CODE DOES NOT INCREASE DEPTH! It doesn't make the game more competitive. It's just an extra burden for the defender. It's a minor change that isn't worth the line count, and wouldn't be worth the line count if it was 1 line long.

 

[Eaode]

1) Airdodging is not a get out of jail free card all the time. Maybe sometimes. Not all the time.

2) This isn't depth. It's an input, for crying out loud!

3) And what's the problem with AD being better than the alternatives? Maybe edgehogging is better than the alternative forms of edgeguarding. So do we nerf edgehogging? No. That's stupid. It's a mechanic that was put into the game for a reason.
Being able to AD out of tumble is a mechanic that was put into the game for a reason. There is no benefit to taking it out.

1) Not all the time obviously, but when it's not, it still puts you in a much better position than when before you airdodged.

2) it's not the input itself, it's the emergence of options that comes with a harder airdodge. by nerfing AD, the other escape options become viable, and you must choose more carefully between them, each with their inherent advantages and disadvantages. That is depth.

3) if AD is better than the alternatives then it homogenizes combo escaping and takes out thought from the process. If edgehogging were broken, we would fix it. It will never be broken, and as it stands it's pretty situational in Brawl(+) anyway.

"Being able to AD out of tumble was put in for a reason"
Yes it was- for the same reason they drastically reduced the hitstun.