PLEASE NOTE THAT I ONLY SUPPORT THIS CODE IF WE HAVE CODESPACE FOR IT, AND CODESPACE FOR NECESSARY DEFENSIVE BUFFS IF NEEDED.
The same could be said for no auto sweetspot ledges, and hitstun, and lower buffer (especially lower buffer). Every physics change that we made was a major change, and most of them were negatively received at first (I know that when my brawl friends first tried brawl+, they hated it because they couldn't attack me out of my combos, or drop their shield and f-smash me after shielding my aerials). I really don't see how this is any different.
That's only depth if it does something that isn't already done. But that also seems fairly easy to do.
Tell that to Guilty Gear.
Why are you forced to jump out?! You're not forced to do anything. You choose to jump out because you don't know if it's a combo or not, because you don't know when you're not in hitstun, which was exactly my point. For if you know that you're not in hitstun, then you know when you should be wiggling out, you're just not doing it, which means that you're contradicting the purpose of this code (these things only apply assuming that everyone can...do it. Even if they have to practice, they still have to actually apply these principles)
How about because mashing airdodge mindlessly should not be a guaranteed way to minimize damage? Airdodging gives you full control over your momentum (you can drift forward or back), and you get closer to the ground. Is that not the best thing you could ask for? Even if you're airdodge gets predicted, you're better of than the other scenario (get hit right after exiting hitstun), which is my biggest gripe with the system. Where's my reward for predicting you? I predict your airdodge and I get....a forward air, since you used that airdodge to drift to far for my uair to connect, even though I knew exactly what you were doing.
Or you time the wiggle since you know it's not a combo.
It is still in-discriminatory. It is still an option. It just takes some actual timing now (*gasp, there's prediction involved now?!?)
As you mentioned previously in our back room discussion, being frame perfect with wiggles is not practical. In fact, you said even the best players fail to be within a 3 frame window of being frame perfect and that even silent wolf isn't frame perfect. As such, for heavier chars, if they need an instant option, jumping/attacking is their only bufferable/instant option. This is why I used it as an example. They might have exited hitstun and have a 2 frame open window before the opponent can uair them again. They might try to wiggle and AD out, but according to your previous argument, that isn't consistently feasible. So wait, how is this in-discriminatory? You have characters with strong feasible buffer exits, and others that do not? I know they are going to uair me again, but now I only have these two options. I'm predicting them, just as they need to predict my air dodge. This is why its an imperfect system. You can say, why don't I get more for predicting them, but why don't I get more for knowing that I can exit a huge combo. In fact, 70-80% combos still exist. Why do we need to make them even longer?
It's not hard to anticipate airdodge, but the reward you get for predicting the airdodge is less than hitting them after the string, so it's still a better situation for them. The vertical transition turns onto a horizontal transition, most of which cannot be combo'd from and also don't kill the opponent.
Why is this a bad thing? You just put on say 75% on me but failed to kill me due to the DI that I performed. I see that your going for the kill move or to try and keep going. I air dodge, as you know and claimed, is the best option for many characters. You see it coming, since you say its easy, and hit me again. **** I'm at 90% now and still working on recovering. Your advantage is still way higher here. So now this is your logic. You hit me in that 75% and I exit the combo. Air dodge is still my best defensive option. I now need to focus on the exact frame i exit hitstun, wiggle, AD and am in the exact same situation. But wait, I can't be frame perfect. Now I get fwomped in the face if I'm a big slow character. Why is this any better? AD is clearly still the best option, but now I can't buffer it.
At this point, most strings are strictly done close to the ground, most punishing whiffed attacks. Punishing an airdodge is typically the end of that string, because it sends them too far to follow up, which in turn makes airdodging the ultimate defensive option (better than all the others for most characters). This is about the risk/reward system, because the risk for having your airdodge predicted is actually less than the risk of not airdodging at all, which in my eyes is a serious flaw. To that end, it's effect on balance is a small problem (with the appropriate buffs to those who need it of course), because it goes against the principle that tumbling is nota neutral state, and that a predicted action should be worse than no action.
None of these are a problem when you do what you're supposed to do! I play Marth in melee, I know what getting juggled with no defense below me is like (and back then I couldn't even airdodge anyway). Fox players know what it's like to get juggled by me too! I also know that brawl has answers to these that are still applicable even after the inclusion of this code. The difference is that they're only applicable if you know what your opponent is going to do, which seems perfectly fair considering that your opponent purposefully put you in that position with the intent of limiting your options. They put you in that spot so that they could go for a mixup between strings and true combos...but mashing airdodge dramatically reduces the effectiveness of the former.
You said they go for the mix–up. It is easy to go for the mix up. I'm fox, I uair you, you expect a follow up uair and start your air dodge. I do my fair which has a nice length and vertically neutral and knock you even higher for it. There's an effective mix–up. And look, I'm still at a vertical advantage. If i know what the opponent is going to do and exit hitstun, I SHOULD be able to act on it. But as you said before, and I reiterate, I cannot act equally across the cast. If I'm bowser, my best option is to wiggle AD. I can't aerial. I can try and jump it but will likely fail. This combo string still exists with or without your code. Your code adds nothing but an attempted roadblock at the same reason.
The mixup should only exist when it is possible to do a true combo or a string. If they are only able to do a string from that position, then obviously you'll just wiggle and time your airdodge. It takes practice but it is more than doable and does not take away your options. All it requires is that the person being combo'd has to actually think about whether it's a combo or a string and act accordingly. Yes it is a buff to offense, but not in the sense that you're taking it. You're taking it to mean that jugglers can now juggle characters 100% of the time because they can't airdodge (which is flat out untrue).
No i'm not. I'm saying it hurts their ability to exit juggles as often as they can now. Even if this only made them get stuck in 1 more juggle than they did before, it is still a nerf to a portion of the cast which is severely biased. However, you know as much as I know, that its going to be a lot more than just 1 juggle. Otherwise, this code would serve no purpose.
I'm taking it to mean that mixups between strings and combos actually work, because now your opponent has to guess between the two (but only if both are possible). For this...both players have to have knowledge of the character's combos. To escape your strings, your opponent has to know what your combo options are (and if you have any and how reliable they are in that situation). That's just a part of matchup knowledge.
I acknowledge these weaknesses, I just believe that the benefits outweigh them (cost vs benefits).
I'm glad you see them. I see some benefits as well, but I truly think the costs are greater than you acknowledge. If I'm going to play bowser, I'm going to need to work on perfecting my wiggle to AD for so many combos. Additionally, if you try to lower hitstun more, if I do improve my ability to do to near frame perfect, won't this make the situation even worse?
To reiterate, it is a buff to offense, but only in the sense that it punishes players who spam generic escapes when they don't know what they're getting hit by. When you predict a spotdodge or a roll, you get quite a large reward because of 2 things. You know how much invincibility it has and most importantly you're 100% sure where it ends, even before they actually do it. They have predefined distances that can be quickly measured with your eyes. Airdodges are much more powerful, because they take away from the certainty of that aspect. An at the end of an airdodge, the opponent can be anywhere along a large arc, making it far less punishable than the other defensive options (since you have to react to the direction that the opponent drifts during the airdodge, meaning you have less time to position yourself, meaning that you're limited to using quick moves for punishment and only in 1 or 2 directions).
You as an offensive player should know where their air dodge will end. That takes practice too and match–up experience too, doesn't it?
Giving them this option directly out of hitstun just makes strings as a whole very ineffective, making the match devolve to just some guaranteed combos and only pulling strings when you want to link kill moves (at least when it comes to the air game).
We can buff defense by other means, but airdodging directly out of hitstun just discourages creativity when preforming combos, because anything that is not a true combo will just be airdodged out of, and the punishment for predicting that airdodge is often not enough to keep your combo going.
Doesn't stop my creativity and approaches. If anything, it makes me consider more options as to how to counteract their Air dodge. instead, I fell this code makes strings more effective at reinforcing the current combos they have now and lengthening them.
. Im talking legit dair> utilt> other shenanigans type stuff.
