COMPETITIVE Brawl+: Code Agenda

[kupo15]

^^Not exactly. I'll answer this after my midterm

 

[Dark Sonic]

since true combos may now be extended when they turn into strings.

How exactly is this bad? That's exactly what kind of combo system we were going for isn't it? Where combos that are a result of hitstun and combos that are a result of a positioning advantage or the opponent's slow reaction/wrong reaction are interwoven to make really long elaborate combos that only happen occasionally because they require the opponent to make the wrong decision when getting combo'd (like he wasted time trying to wiggle when it was a true combo and that just screwed up his DI, or he tried to fair out but he didn't have enough time to do it, so he should've just wiggle'd out and airdodged).

That's exactly what I was looking for in the combo system. The ability to actually hide strings between true combos.

But alas, this is a community project, and it seems like a lot of people (including some other intelligent posters) don't like the tumble codes, so I guess we'll have to leave them out for codespace (in the event of increased code space I will argue for these)

 

[Phantom1987]

where can I find the Plusery 3.4 that you all are talking about?? I could only find the 3.3 beta version...

 

[kupo15]

How exactly is this bad? That's exactly what kind of combo system we were going for isn't it? Where combos that are a result of hitstun and combos that are a result of a positioning advantage or the opponent's slow reaction/wrong reaction are interwoven to make really long elaborate combos that only happen occasionally because they require the opponent to make the wrong decision when getting combo'd (like he wasted time trying to wiggle when it was a true combo and that just screwed up his DI, or he tried to fair out but he didn't have enough time to do it, so he should've just wiggle'd out and airdodged).

That's exactly what I was looking for in the combo system. The ability to actually hide strings between true combos.

QFT

(in the event of increased code space I will argue for these)

As will I

So I've been convinced about not letting it into the plussery for now, but not forever.Sonic basically said what I wanted to say in regards to this.

 

[Ulevo]

where can I find the Plusery 3.4 that you all are talking about?? I could only find the 3.3 beta version...

3.4 isn't out yet. It's currently just a modified 3.3 that shanus is tampering with here and there.

 

[Phantom1987]

and what modifications to the 3.3 should I include... I want to try many codeset to cleat up my mind of what I do expect to find in this game or ideas for it.

 

[abcool]

I also agree with kupo, i tried playing with the tumble code off and it suck to AD when i wanna tech. I also noticed how sloppy it is to connect a solid combo and the opponent just AD's out and just ruins everything. I rather less hitstun and the tumble than more hitstun and that gay AD out of a tumble, which you can ALREADY attack/jump out of anyway.

 

[peachfvl]

is there something wrong with the hold L for stage freezing code?

because sometimes it works and then when i choose another stage it doesn´t work

 

[MK26]

How exactly is this bad? That's exactly what kind of combo system we were going for isn't it? Where combos that are a result of hitstun and combos that are a result of a positioning advantage or the opponent's slow reaction/wrong reaction are interwoven to make really long elaborate combos that only happen occasionally because they require the opponent to make the wrong decision when getting combo'd (like he wasted time trying to wiggle when it was a true combo and that just screwed up his DI, or he tried to fair out but he didn't have enough time to do it, so he should've just wiggle'd out and airdodged).

That's exactly what I was looking for in the combo system. The ability to actually hide strings between true combos.

But alas, this is a community project, and it seems like a lot of people (including some other intelligent posters) don't like the tumble codes, so I guess we'll have to leave them out for codespace (in the event of increased code space I will argue for these)

So what you're saying is...a string becomes a combo not because you trick your opponent, not because you read his option, but because the button input gets in the way of him performing the maneuver? I just read Sirlin's SF2 Turbo articles, and that seemed like one of the main things he was trying to get rid of - the player being punished because of an unnecessarily difficult button input

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

mashing to get out of a tumble sounds a lot like manual l cancelling to me

 

[Ulevo]

This just in-- wiggling is easy to do.

 

[Deleted member]

mashing to get out of a tumble sounds a lot like manual l cancelling to me

Grand Idea, Jiangjunizzy, why not change it to a simple button input. So you can stay in tumble if you want (to tech) or get out, to not get comboed so easily. If you think mashing is already slimple then, 0k.

 

[Dark Sonic]

So what you're saying is...a string becomes a combo not because you trick your opponent, not because you read his option, but because the button input gets in the way of him performing the maneuver? I just read Sirlin's SF2 Turbo articles, and that seemed like one of the main things he was trying to get rid of - the player being punished because of an unnecessarily difficult button input

Except it's not.

1. Even if you predict that they will airdodge, they still move during the airdodge, thus lessening the effect of the positioning advantage that you had be trying to establish (for instance, you wanted them to be slightly above you so you could uptilt, but their airodge will let them reach the ground so no matter how well you predict it you won't get that up tilt). Landing lag is only 2 frames and some character's attacks only stay out for 1 or 2 frames (Marth's f-smash only has a hitbox for 1 frame for instance), giving you only a 3 frame window to punish their completely predictable action.

2. It is because you tricked them. Wiggling is not hard to do!! You just tap the control stick and then airdodge! The player is being punished because he picked the wrong solution (trying to wiggle out of a true combo and thus ruining his DI, or trying to DI a string and thus missing his chance to escape it entirely.)

This removes the blanket solution of "always go for the airdodge when trying to escape, just in case it's not a true combo," which allows them to both DI true combos very well, and also escape all strings, and even mitigate the effects of being in a bad position (since being closer to the ground is typically better than not being closer to the ground), even if you predict the airdodge. It is the superior option in almost every single situation, and dispite it being punishable it's still better than taking the hit you were trying to dodge. As in, this completely predictable option is still better than before, despite me predicting it!!.

 

[kupo15]

Except it's not.

1. Even if you predict that they will airdodge, they still move during the airdodge, thus lessening the effect of the positioning advantage that you had be trying to establish (for instance, you wanted them to be slightly above you so you could uptilt, but their airodge will let them reach the ground so no matter how well you predict it you won't get that up tilt). Landing lag is only 2 frames and some character's attacks only stay out for 1 or 2 frames (Marth's f-smash only has a hitbox for 1 frame for instance), giving you only a 3 frame window to punish their completely predictable action.

2. It is because you tricked them. Wiggling is not hard to do!! You just tap the control stick and then airdodge! The player is being punished because he picked the wrong solution (trying to wiggle out of a true combo and thus ruining his DI, or trying to DI a string and thus missing his chance to escape it entirely.)

This removes the blanket solution of "always go for the airdodge when trying to escape, just in case it's not a true combo," which allows them to both DI true combos very well, and also escape all strings, and even mitigate the effects of being in a bad position (since being closer to the ground is typically better than not being closer to the ground), even if you predict the airdodge. It is the superior option in almost every single situation, and dispite it being punishable it's still better than taking the hit you were trying to dodge. As in, this completely predictable option is still better than before, despite me predicting it!!.

QFT

Wow, two really great additional points that I never even thought of. This code adds so much to the combo game than I originally thought.

 

[goodoldganon]

I can see the depth this adds, I think one of the biggest problems we have is the blanket nerf it makes to a chunk of the cast. Those with aerials that can't cover themselves, have slow jumps, have poor jumps, or any combination of the three are just left out in the code to be juggled. This code is a juggler and combo characters dream, but don't forget even with histun there are still characters that aren't meant for juggling and play a 1-2 game or a straight up defensive/camp game.

 

[Ulevo]

I can see the depth this adds, I think one of the biggest problems we have is the blanket nerf it makes to a chunk of the cast. Those with aerials that can't cover themselves, have slow jumps, have poor jumps, or any combination of the three are just left out in the code to be juggled. This code is a juggler and combo characters dream, but don't forget even with histun there are still characters that aren't meant for juggling and play a 1-2 game or a straight up defensive/camp game.

I really do not see this. It is very easy to get out of tumble quickly. I've never encountered a circumstance in which I was combo'd purely because I didn't escape tumble in time, even with bulky characters like King Dedede.

 

[Dark Sonic]

I really do not see this. It is very easy to get out of tumble quickly. I've never encountered a circumstance in which I was combo'd purely because I didn't escape tumble in time, even with bulky characters like King Dedede.

I haven't gotten to do much play testing with the code yet, but I honestly can't see how this is a problem. If you know that you're not going to be in hitstun on the next hit, then obviously you should be able to time a control stick flick and an airdodge (stop mashing and start timing).

If you don't know whether or not you'll be in hitstun for the next hit, then you fall in my scenario where you get to play the mixup game and hope that you're right.

 

[J_RUM]

Any recommended values on the new tech window code?

 

[Wavedash Master]

Nevermind my post.

 

[goodoldganon]

I really do not see this. It is very easy to get out of tumble quickly. I've never encountered a circumstance in which I was combo'd purely because I didn't escape tumble in time, even with bulky characters like King Dedede.

D3 has a few decent, disjointed aerials, but the d-air does an OK job of protecting him.His up-b has super armor so he can escape that way, especially if he is juggled off the stage. The characters I feel that become worse with this code are:

Peach-Lol at her 'second jump' so Peach's only options are to time that flick to dodge perfectly or use an aerial to cover her. She really doesn't have one.

Bowser- Slow, poor jumps and no aerial to cover him.

Yoshi-Jumping is a poor idea because if he gets knocked out of it or off the stage after it's done the Yoshi is gone.

DK- see Bowser

Zelda- see Bowser. N-air is weak below, before anyone suggests that.

Toon Link (inexperienced here)- Not really too bad, but he doesn't have a solid aerial to cover himself. His jump is good, but a little slow.

Ganondorf- see Bowser

ICs- This just screams to get the two separated, something that I'd argue is almost too easy to do now.

Ike- see Bowser

Ness-no good aerial and his awkward jump can put him in a situation he doesn't want to be in.

Charizard- see Bowser

Jigglypuff-She got juggled really bad when we used her, I can chalk it up to inexperience I suppose.

Snake- No good GTFO me aerial, slow jumps and if he gets hit after jumping his recovery is spike bait. Can't forget the whole 'grabbing the Cypher' thing either.

12 characters who were all balanced and decent characters are now a whole lot tougher to play with and against the jugglers. 11 to 12 characters that now need to go through an extra hoop to do what is really there only mildy reliable solution.

I don't want to sound like a prick or anything, but we need to keep the original spirit of Brawl in tact. Besides momentum, the game still feels like Brawl. Brawl is known for it's simplicity of gameplay and stronger defensive game. It's another topic. Really, I just want to know the opinions on those 11 or 12 guys.

I got about an hour of playtesting with this code today, only cause an old friend called me up and saw my Brawl+ Youtube vids. I explained it was a debated code and we tried it for an hour, and decided to ditch it.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Peach-Lol at her 'second jump' so Peach's only options are to time that flick to dodge perfectly or use an aerial to cover her. She really doesn't have one.

What about dair? Or nair for in front of her.

Bowser- Slow, poor jumps and no aerial to cover him.

How about just timing the dodge. If you know it's not a combo it should be simple right?

Yoshi-Jumping is a poor idea because if he gets knocked out of it or off the stage after it's done the Yoshi is gone.

Double jump->nair.

DK- see Bowser

See Bowser

Zelda- see Bowser. N-air is weak below, before anyone suggests that.

Double jump dair, double jump up B teleport. Or just time the airdodge...

Toon Link (inexperienced here)- Not really too bad, but he doesn't have a solid aerial to cover himself. His jump is good, but a little slow.

Nair comes out pretty fast for in front of him, double jump dair is decent (dair comes out pretty fast too anyway).

Ganondorf- see Bowser

See Bowser.

ICs- This just screams to get the two separated, something that I'd argue is almost too easy to do now.

They get separated regardless, because Nana lags behind Popo and doesn't airdodge in time anyway.

Ike- see Bowser

See Bowser. Double jump dair works fairly well too.

Ness-no good aerial and his awkward jump can put him in a situation he doesn't want to be in.

See Bowser.

Charizard- see Bowser

See Bowser. Up B kinda works too.

Jigglypuff-She got juggled really bad when we used her, I can chalk it up to inexperience I suppose.

Learn to DI and use your jumps.

Snake- No good GTFO me aerial, slow jumps and if he gets hit after jumping his recovery is spike bait. Can't forget the whole 'grabbing the Cypher' thing either.

Dair and nair aren't good GTFO aerials? Fast fall bair? Also, see Bowser.

I don't want to sound like a prick or anything, but we need to keep the original spirit of Brawl in tact. Besides momentum, the game still feels like Brawl. Brawl is known for it's simplicity of gameplay and stronger defensive game. It's another topic. Really, I just want to know the opinions on those 11 or 12 guys.

I fail to see how any of these didn't already apply without the code, the only difference being you would always try to airdodge regardless of whether or not you knew the next hit was a true combo. Sorry to say this...but maybe you're just used to mashing airdodge and having it work without really thinking at all. How about you try actually timing the wiggle and airdodge since your so certain that what you're getting hit by is not a combo.

And I don't want to sound like a prick or anything, but the original spirit of brawl was bull ****. Brawl is known for it's overly campy nature (due to an overpowered defensive game and very small rewards for successful approaches) and for holding your hand every chance it gets. To me brawl+ feels nothing like normal brawl, and I couldn't be happier for that.

 

[Blank Mauser]

In general, I'm all for implementing actual mix-ups to the combo game considering most combos are generally either you DI or you don't DI it. I'd even go as far to support something more to mix-up DI, like faster airdodges for DI'ing in a riskier direction.

Overall I like the idea of this code, but if people don't like the implementation of it I'd still say something similar to this would benefit the combo game a lot. Otherwise I just hate combo's being so concrete, especially for characters who can't really keep up and don't have momentum like Fox/Falcon do.

 

[goodoldganon]

Meh, my experience today was that most U-airs were eating all the options you posted. Yes, 1 hour is not enough time to dismiss a code, those are my initial reactions to the code. It was frustrating for my friend (and I'll admit, myself too) so I wasn't going to rain on his first B+ experience.

I also reiterate, why must those characters now jump through an extra hurdle to perform what is really their only safe, and reliable counters. It's like adding a code that requires you to hit jump twice just to jump once. (Poor example but whatever)

I also agree that B+ doesn't hold your hand quite to the level of vBrawl, and also the camping and defense are much less potent, but the game is still quite easy to pick up. Sure there are a few guys (coughSONICcough) that have A LOT of depth to them, but the game is still very simple. I just feel this code is a direct nerf to the simplicity that not only is prevalent in Brawl, but I also thought we were striving for in B+.


EDIT:

@Blank: Why must every character be a combo character? I will not deny this code clearly strengthens the combo game and adds a new layer of depth to the game. But I ask again...Why must every character be a combo character? Why can't we have defensive characters or characters based around a 1-2 game, but those two hits sure hit hard.

It's oversimplfying it, but I saw it on the WoW boards after Blizz took away all the unique raid buffs classes give. "All I'm going to be doing is choosing what color I get to shoot out of my hand and whether I'm staring at a bosses *** or his face"

Oversimplifying? Yes, but my experience with the code just made everyone combo better.

 

[kupo15]

^^^Your forgetting an option. The double jump plus AD and your forgetting about fastfalling the tumble

 

[Dark Sonic]

I also reiterate, why must those characters now jump through an extra hurdle to perform what is really their only safe, and reliable counters. It's like adding a code that requires you to hit jump twice just to jump once. (Poor example but whatever)

Because that same safe reliable counter can be spammed with literally no thought and still net them a better outcome (regardless of it being predictable)? How about so you have to think when getting out of combos? Hitstun is one of the least satisfying ways to pull off combos, because it's simply too defined (they're either in hitstun or they're not). Strings are much more entertaining, but are only viable when they can successfully blend within the veil of true combos. This can only be done if there is no foolproof counter for them (which is currently...mash airdodge and you'll be better off than if you didn't mash airdodge 90% of the time)

I also agree that B+ doesn't hold your hand quite to the level of vBrawl, and also the camping and defense are much less potent, but the game is still quite easy to pick up. Sure there are a few guys (coughSONICcough) that have A LOT of depth to them, but the game is still very simple. I just feel this code is a direct nerf to the simplicity that not only is prevalent in Brawl, but I also thought we were striving for in B+.

No autosweetspot ledges, hitstun, shield stun, 2 frame buffer, ect, are all fairly difficult to get used to when picking up brawl+. We're not striving for simplicity, we're striving for depth (it is nice if things are simple, but simplicity can be sacrificed if there are merits to the change). It "taking getting used to" is not justification for excluding the code. What matters is the end product when everyone is able to do it, which I think is a very good end product in this scenario. You're able to airdodge out when you know it's not a combo, you're able to get the optimal DI if you know it is a combo, but you have to guess and possibly be punished for guessing wrong if you're not sure. To me...that's depth and well worth having to practice timing a tap of the control stick for.

 

[goodoldganon]

^^^Your forgetting an option. The double jump plus AD and your forgetting about fastfalling the tumble

Touche...

Well...ok...but...****. I'll try those some time this weekend.'

EDIT:

You have such a way with words DS. All very valid points. Is someone copying the better arguments down, because much like HAD, it seems to me this issue might have to come to another centralized, community topic.

I promise to give this code more practice and time. Do we agree that, at the time, the improved tech code is worth having in place of these two codes? Also, it's those two or nothing. Sorry Kupo, I know you don't use PT or MK, but their codes should stay. I'm asking for an 'official' set.

 

[shanus]

Because that same safe reliable counter can be spammed with literally no thought and still net them a better outcome (regardless of it being predictable)? How about so you have to think when getting out of combos? Hitstun is one of the least satisfying ways to pull off combos, because it's simply too defined (they're either in hitstun or they're not). Strings are much more entertaining, but are only viable when they can successfully blend within the veil of true combos. This can only be done if there is no foolproof counter for them (which is currently...mash airdodge and you'll be better off than if you didn't mash airdodge 90% of the time)


No autosweetspot ledges, hitstun, shield stun, 2 frame buffer, ect, are all fairly difficult to get used to when picking up brawl+. We're not striving for simplicity, we're striving for depth (it is nice if things are simple, but simplicity can be sacrificed if there are merits to the change). It "taking getting used to" is not justification for excluding the code. What matters is the end product when everyone is able to do it, which I think is a very good end product in this scenario. You're able to airdodge out when you know it's not a combo, you're able to get the optimal DI if you know it is a combo, but you have to guess and possibly be punished for guessing wrong if you're not sure. To me...that's depth and well worth having to practice timing a tap of the control stick for.

At the same time that you add depth, you also want the game to be approachable. This is a mechanic which a large portion of new members (read: players who are competitive now but weren't in melee, a LARGE scene which we are hoping to attract) will not be attracted too. Notice how everyone's first reaction to it is: disgust. Even if this mechanic was the best thing since sliced bread, imagine trying to convert a large quantity of players to this game when they won't even give it a chance. You can add the ultimate depth with the up b down a up down left right b start combos, but depth alone does not make a game good. The appropriate balance between playability AND depth on the other hand does. Its not hard to time a wiggle when you know you've exited a combo, but when your a large character in the mix of getting juggled to death and then your usually forced to jump out and AD (which when we discussed in our chat room how easily punishable that is), I don't think thats adding depth or playability.

As I said before, I think its an ambitious goal, but I don't think its the right one. A large portion of the cast already breaks a string with an aerial, but not all the cast can do that. Why should we make their lives harder? You can say these characters can do this to escape it and that to escape it, but now they've given up their second jump and entered an air dodge and are still in a risky sitatuion. Why shouldn't diddy have to (oh right, he has a huge hitbox fast fair)? Why shouldn't MK have to (oh right, nair)? Etc, etc. This is my main problem with the code. Every character had an equal option to exit hitstun. It was in-discriminatory; that is, an option of equal benefit was presented to the entire cast, a rare sight indeed. However, even with this option there, the depth is already there. Combos can already be strung together. Zoning and mindgames still persist in vertical transitions (its not too hard to anticipate an air dodge).

Also Dark, this is one thing which still has yet to be answered by anyone to my knowledge (or at least explicitly besides saying omgdepth, and I feel this is super important). Why does the punishment system/offense need to be buffed further? Furthermore, why does this need to be buffed further where it will explicitly benefit characters with faster air mobility and capability to string attacks?

Do you not see any of this is as a problem? I know you play sonic here and usually respond with an analog relating to him. But think of playing bowser in this picture vs a fox. Who is going to benefit more from this code? Now think of MK vs ganondorf. Or MK vs Falcon? The list goes on. Are we targeting the right characters by adding this code or making the disparity even worse?

Its easy to theorycraft why this can be so ideal for depth. Its also easy to theorycraft why this is going to amplify any disparities within the character tiers. Its not exclusive. As much as this code adds, it also takes away. Think economically, cost vs benefits. In my opinion, our system now is fantastic. Do I think its worth upsetting the balance to have this (well what you would call it at least) marginal benefit? The fact that you aren't acknowledging these weaknesses is worries me as well.

That's whats on the table. You don't need to run me through the options of what to do exiting, you already know as well I do that I've read it a million times. I want to see your explanations for how this code is not biased to a select group of the cast and why the offensive game needs to be buffed further. And as such, how would you hope to compensate these characters and defensive strategy as a result.

 

[spunit262]

Tech window V0.5 [spunit262, Phantom Wings]
C277F190 00000012
80810010 2C040046
41A00080 2C04004C
41A10078 80BF0068
88C5008F 2C0600[COLOR="Yellow"]14[/COLOR]
41A10068 88E5008E
7CC63A14 2C0600[COLOR="Red"]28[/COLOR]
41800058 2C040049
41820050 41A00008
3884FFFC 3884FFBA
5484083C 38840060
2C040062 41810030
41820010 80C50038
54C66D3E 48000014
80E50074 50E4EFFE
80C5003C 7CC69E70
2C0607E5 41A00008
60840001 90810010
60000000 00000000
C2765394 00000005
88C30058 2C0600[COLOR="Red"]28[/COLOR]
41A10014 7C060214
2C0000FF 41800008
380000FE 98030058
60000000 00000000
[COLOR="Yellow"]Tech window 20[/COLOR]
[COLOR="red"]Retry wait period (includes tech window) 40[/COLOR]

I did some tricky stuff to try and save on lines, so retest everything.

 

[CountKaiser]

Wait, what does the retry wait period do? Make it so that you have to time the button press?

 

[kupo15]

missed tech reset counter

so spunit, when you say it includes tech window for the red, does that mean right now, when the teching window is over, it takes 20 frames before you can tech again even though its set to 40?

I was just jumping around for about 3 secs and got a freeze

 

[spunit262]

missed tech reset counter

so spunit, when you say it includes tech window for the red, does that mean right now, when the teching window is over, it takes 20 frames before you can tech again even though its set to 40?

I was just jumping around for about 3 secs and got a freeze

Yes.

Just jumping?

 

[kupo15]

I may have tried to fast fall but am not sure. I'm trying to restart without the code and for some reason my wii stays black screen after the codes load. Its weird and isn't the first time its done that. My line count is well below also. But when I dl the plussery set or something, it works. Its very confusing. I hope I don't have to redo my text file yet again.

 

[spunit262]

Tripping Rate Modifier [KirbyIsCool, spunit262]
04B883E0 00000000
Default is .02

 

[GHNeko]

Tripping Rate Modifier [KirbyIsCool, spunit262]
04B883E0 00000000
Default is .02

Can I send you money? I want to send you money. You really should be paid for all the **** you do for us. <3

 

[SketchHurricane]

I'd like to quickly point out that we can't just consider combos in regard to this No Airdodge in Tumble (will refer to as NAT). We must also consider the fact that some are saying it fixes accidental ADs when trying to tech. It's worth consideration for that alone if this is the case.

Honestly I don't see how the combo game is nearly the selling point that Kupo and DS are making it out to be. I see your points about depth quite clearly, but Shanus makes the good point there was already depth in the combo game. DS, you say that AD was the best option regardless of whether it was predicted, but I disagree. If your AD is predicted, you will get hit in the cooldown. If your AD is not predicted, you will not get hit. How, then, is getting hit (predicted) the same as not getting hit? You can make your AD unpredictable through delayed timing, but your opponent can catch on and still punish. You can then start to AD immediately to continue the mixup, and your opponent will adjust. If they think you will delay, you can start to aerial, not only avoid the hit, but also turn the situation in your favor. Here is the current mixup between AD (less risk, less reward) and attacking (bigger risk, bigger reward). There is depth without this code.

It seems to me like your strongest point is that to wiggle AD you must sacrifice your DI and thus jeopardize your chance of escape. Yet you continue on to make the point that you can simply flick the stick, and that you shouldn't be wiggling anyway. How, then, can you not just flick in the same direction you were DIing anyway and AD as well? This proves that the extra stick input is ultimately ineffective in changing your options in the air. If it is as quick and simply as a flick, I hold that it cannot have a significant enough effect on DI as to ruin it.

To summarize, I believe that NAT adds no extra depth that wasn't present already, yet possibly adds a layer of control that is necessary to allow the option to tech where one would usually AD. If the later is true, it is the only selling point of NAT worth looking into. Regardless, I'll be testing the code to arrive at a concrete stance myself.

 

[kupo15]

DS, you say that AD was the best option regardless of whether it was predicted, but I disagree. If your AD is predicted, you will get hit in the cooldown. If your AD is not predicted, you will not get hit. How, then, is getting hit (predicted) the same as not getting hit? You can make your AD unpredictable through delayed timing, but your opponent can catch on and still punish. You can then start to AD immediately to continue the mixup, and your opponent will adjust. If they think you will delay, you can start to aerial, not only avoid the hit, but also turn the situation in your favor. Here is the current mixup between AD (less risk, less reward) and attacking (bigger risk, bigger reward). There is depth without this code..

Apparently you missed the point where he said that you lose strategic positioning. Predicting the air dodge isn't that big a deal because of how easy it is, but, that valuable time waiting for the air dodge moves them away from the position you wanted them to be in. So instead continuing the string right where they exit hitstun, your continuing it at a much different position which makes a difference.

 

[Wavedash Master]

[B][COLOR=Yellow]Tripping Rate Modifier[/COLOR][/B] [KirbyIsCool, spunit262]
04B883E0 00000000
[COLOR=LightBlue][B]Default is .02[/B][/COLOR]

So, what do we need this for? Don't we just want to get rid of random tripping altogether?

 

[GPDP]

[B][COLOR=Yellow]Tripping Rate Modifier[/COLOR][/B] [KirbyIsCool, spunit262]
04B883E0 00000000
[COLOR=LightBlue][B]Default is .02[/B][/COLOR]

So, what do we need this for? Don't we just want to get rid of random tripping altogether?

It's just a one-line no tripping code. We need all the extra lines we can get.

 

[Wavedash Master]

Oh, I didn't quite catch that. I always assumed it was a one liner, for some reason.

 

[Finns7]

Yo, I got black screen I took the AD/tumble off and ff tumble and added the teching code v.05 or sumthin.

Ok I had to take buffer off just to test this for some reason (line space idk). The teching code is great.

negatives imo

1. People can tech out of ganons sideb
.
.
.
nothing else really, I think I have a vid of cpu lvl 9 mario ledgeteching @_@.
Also I know this is not relevant to this thread and I was a non believer/didnt care person about the subject, but I swear the cpus copy your moves or something. cpu falcos arnt supposed to sh laser to fsmash, then when it killed me it walked to the ledge and crouch taunts twice........wtf