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COMPETITIVE Brawl+: Code Agenda

kupo15

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So whats a recommended value for the teching code? Or is the one in the OP good to go?
I think the OP is too low. I'm testing values now with the debug mode

I am testing V4 tech right now and it works fine but the way you activate it isn't right. You can just hold down the shield to tech at any time instead of pressing the button once at the right time
 

GPDP

Smash Ace
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Messages
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That's weird. I think it's just right, and shanus thinks it's too high. I don't see how anyone could possibly have any trouble with this window.
 

kupo15

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That's weird. I think it's just right, and shanus thinks it's too high. I don't see how anyone could possibly have any trouble with this window.
Me neither when you don't even need to time anything lol

I now my setting Im trying now is way too high (float 250 :p) but I def was just holding the shield button well above the ground and teched but couldn't tech if I just tapped it
 

The Night Cat

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I think the OP is too low. I'm testing values now with the debug mode

I am testing V4 tech right now and it works fine but the way you activate it isn't right. You can just hold down the shield to tech at any time instead of pressing the button once at the right time
Kupo I was just trying what you were talking about but I think it's just that the window is too big because I tried holding shield from various times during a hitstunned fall and it only really works when you get close to the ground. I think the window is just that big.
 

The Night Cat

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Correction. It does work. But the way you have to do it is retardly hard.

This really needs work, but utlimately when fixed, should be in B+.

Neko, I invented the method and I suck. It aint hard it's just counter-intuitive, you have start hitting the tech and jump buttons before your regular tech height/time. If you hit them late you'll get a regular tech and if you hit them too early you'll get nothing but the window is generous. Also if you come out of hitstun before or during the ground tech jump window I just described you'll probably air dodge, jump or jump and airdodge.
 

kupo15

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Kupo I was just trying what you were talking about but I think it's just that the window is too big because I tried holding shield from various times during a hitstunned fall and it only really works when you get close to the ground. I think the window is just that big.
My window was too big for sure but I am correct. You have to hold the button down and it counts down x frames of teching availability. We need it to be a one time press instead of a hold down then it will be perfect. I hope this doesn't result in more lines :(

EDIT: I am really afraid to tech early now from getting used to such a hard tech timing. Its going to take some time to trust this new expanded teching window lol
 

GPDP

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 29, 2008
Messages
927
Well, we could lower the window still.

But now that we're talking about the code making you time the tech, shouldn't we apply that to powershielding, too? I remember there was talk of getting rid of auto-PS.
 

kupo15

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I think the window is fine as is at 20 frames. Teching shouldn't be really hard as we already saw and it should be natural. We should play with this window for a couple of days before deciding to lower it. I also want to have tap once teching before deciding

God teching is really scary right now. I'm more afraid to tech right now until I get used to it.
 

kupo15

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Elaborate.
Like, for over 5 months since hitstun came out I have trained myself to only attempt a tech at this one exact spot and not before because I would always miss the tech. Now, I have to forget about that and trust that the void where I was forbidden to tech in is now safe again but its hard because I always think I will miss the tech because of how I trained myself to not attempt a tech there.

I can't wait to adjust. This code is so great! xD
 

Starscream

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I am testing V4 tech right now and it works fine but the way you activate it isn't right. You can just hold down the shield to tech at any time instead of pressing the button once at the right time
**** that's just ridiculous. Hopefully this gets fixed soon without adding many lines, I can barely fit this one into my codeset as it is. 255/256 :(
 

Sanu

Smash Champion
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Dec 22, 2005
Messages
2,179
So it turns out I lost my Brawl disc. Then I got really high so I couldn't burn another one. I'll be borrowing someones tonight, I'm excited XD

Edit: Blah, the teching window code is up now? I don't have the means to update my codeset before I head to a smashfest today D=. Does it fit with the current codeset? That is to say, are there too many lines?

Edit Edit: It doesn't look like we'll be able to fit this into the current codeset... what did you take out to fit it in Kupo? All the people I play with can tech consistently in Melee so the large window doesn't really matter to us since we'd still be able to do it with a larger than vanilla but smaller than current window. As long as my friends are able to tech more frequently XD they'll be happy.
 

Greenpoe

Smash Ace
Joined
Nov 6, 2007
Messages
852
That doesn't make sense. Everyone else's Up-B returns whenever they get hit, why not Pit?
My conclusion is its a glitch. Why else would wing fatigue exist?
That isn't true. I'm certain Sakurai put that in on purpose. Remember when everyone thought Pit's flight would be broken before Brawl came out (this is with a Melee mentality of course)? Well, Sakurai thought the same way, so he gave Pit a weakness: If you get hit, you lose it. Besides, Pit can glide, which is usually more favorable. ROB's up B is unique, too. He has a certain amount of fuel and he must be on land for 3 seconds to refuel it, but he doesn't gain any fuel when he gets hit. This is because ROB and Pit's recoveries appeared to Sakurai as otherwise too good.

But if Pit is bad, then I'm all for removing wing fatigue, it'll add more flavor to his character.
 

NAMQ_DrunkeNFeasT

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 28, 2007
Messages
429
Location
Puerto Rico
111
112 N-Special
113 S-Special
114 U-Special
115 D-Special
116 FS
117- Special extras (eg 117 Revers Falcon Punch)
[/CODE]

There's a more complete list out there somewhere.

For Hackers: to find more ids set an execute breakpoint on 8077F780
are values for the Specials for all characters?

samus Sspecial is 125(super) 123 (homming)... or can I use the 113 for homming and 117 for strong??? plz can you pm me with this details plz
 

Ulevo

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That isn't true. I'm certain Sakurai put that in on purpose. Remember when everyone thought Pit's flight would be broken before Brawl came out (this is with a Melee mentality of course)? Well, Sakurai thought the same way, so he gave Pit a weakness: If you get hit, you lose it. Besides, Pit can glide, which is usually more favorable. ROB's up B is unique, too. He has a certain amount of fuel and he must be on land for 3 seconds to refuel it, but he doesn't gain any fuel when he gets hit. This is because ROB and Pit's recoveries appeared to Sakurai as otherwise too good.

But if Pit is bad, then I'm all for removing wing fatigue, it'll add more flavor to his character.
I would rather remove the function that makes Pit die when he's hit then remove Wing Fatigue. That just promotes stalling, as Pit would be able to fly indefinitely. That would also mean Wing Fatigue has an actual purpose, and it would improve Pit as a character. Pits recovery in all seriousness isn't very good, and I don't think Sakurai thought it was too good. Not that it's relevant anyway.

On another note, the current code set on v.3 has hit stun set much too low. I'm finding a lot of combos simply don't work, and the CPU is easily able to escape these combos by simply air dodging, even in instances where DI isn't used. This is the code set that was edited sometime last night on shanus's page. Not sure what the hit stun is set to.
 

Dark Sonic

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That isn't true. I'm certain Sakurai put that in on purpose. Remember when everyone thought Pit's flight would be broken before Brawl came out (this is with a Melee mentality of course)? Well, Sakurai thought the same way, so he gave Pit a weakness: If you get hit, you lose it. Besides, Pit can glide, which is usually more favorable. ROB's up B is unique, too. He has a certain amount of fuel and he must be on land for 3 seconds to refuel it, but he doesn't gain any fuel when he gets hit. This is because ROB and Pit's recoveries appeared to Sakurai as otherwise too good.

But if Pit is bad, then I'm all for removing wing fatigue, it'll add more flavor to his character.
You don't know what Wing Fatigue is do you? It's not how Pit is unable to up B again after getting hit out of it (that actually doesn't have a name). Wing Fatigue is to describe something more related to Pit's Wing Renewal, which is a tech Pit players found a long time ago.

If you do an up B and then skid along the ground (the length and time you skid doesn't matter), and then rise again and cancel with an aerial, you will still have all your jumps and the ability to up B again after that up B runs out!!. However, the duration of this up B and all subsequent up Bs will all add up to some predefined duration. So if you're first up B is only half as long as the up B's total duration, then your second up B will only be able to use that second half (as in, at max it can only be half as long as a full up B). This mechanic has been named "Wing Fatigue."

Making Pit able to up B after getting hit would not make his recovery broken, simply because of this already existing mechanic that merely isn't being used (with regards to Pit being edgeguarded anyway. Pits deal with it every now and then when they want to go far off the stage for edgeguards).

Whether or not Pit needs a buff is an entirely different issue, but if he did, I would have no issue with this buff.
 

Sanu

Smash Champion
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Dec 22, 2005
Messages
2,179
Anyone? What codes did you guys take out to fit the teching window in? o_o
 

Dan_X

Smash Lord
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So wait, we have a legit teching code now? The code that for so long was near impossible to make? How does it work? Does it fix the input, and window? Does it make the input nearer the ground? Does it honest to God work like a charm? Can I expect to ACTUALLY tech with this code?

BTW. There are so many new codes as of late I'm overwhelmed

p.s. Kupo, have you found the perfect values with the camera code yet-- to make Brawl's camera more like Melee's?
 

kupo15

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**** that's just ridiculous. Hopefully this gets fixed soon without adding many lines, I can barely fit this one into my codeset as it is. 255/256 :(
No, it was just my insanely large value I used to test because I found something odd about the code at its default. The OP indeed is a 20 frame window but you have to hold down the button throughout the 20 frames instead of pressing it once which is the only thing needs changed
Edit Edit: It doesn't look like we'll be able to fit this into the current codeset... what did you take out to fit it in Kupo? All the people I play with can tech consistently in Melee so the large window doesn't really matter to us since we'd still be able to do it with a larger than vanilla but smaller than current window. As long as my friends are able to tech more frequently XD they'll be happy.
I took out all the bowser and pt codes and the FF tumble. No one uses them around here and I love my camera code too much
That isn't true. I'm certain Sakurai put that in on purpose. Remember when everyone thought Pit's flight would be broken before Brawl came out (this is with a Melee mentality of course)? Well, Sakurai thought the same way, so he gave Pit a weakness: If you get hit, you lose it. Besides, Pit can glide, which is usually more favorable. ROB's up B is unique, too. He has a certain amount of fuel and he must be on land for 3 seconds to refuel it, but he doesn't gain any fuel when he gets hit. This is because ROB and Pit's recoveries appeared to Sakurai as otherwise too good.

But if Pit is bad, then I'm all for removing wing fatigue, it'll add more flavor to his character.
p.s. Kupo, have you found the perfect values with the camera code yet-- to make Brawl's camera more like Melee's?
I have a great value for the dynamic portion which is in the OP, however, that code is missing the "pan" function which I want to adjust so that you can see more in front of you when you turn around
 

Dan_X

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I have a great value for the dynamic portion which is in the OP, however, that code is missing the "pan" function which I want to adjust so that you can see more in front of you when you turn around
Hmm. Can the pan function be added to the code?
 

kupo15

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Hmm. Can the pan function be added to the code?
I'm sure it can be and that we can remove some of the other useless functions it has to save lines. I told spunit about it and its all a matter of when he has the time with these other codes that came out which sadly have the priority atm.
 

Dark.Pch

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I wanna know. In the new version of brawl+, is the hit stun still as long as it was in the version before. I just got the new verison but I wanna make sure.
 

shanus

Smash Hero
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I wanna know. In the new version of brawl+, is the hit stun still as long as it was in the version before. I just got the new verison but I wanna make sure.
If ur downloading from my site, its slightly higher than before due to removing the No AD during tumble. increased from .484 to .4865. Testing out different hitstun levels and finding a good value. If you read the changelist.txt it explains all changes ive made.
 

Dark.Pch

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drk pch. I tried PMing you but your inbox is full.
That PM Box never satys emptey no matter what. So I get tired of trashing it out. A week later it is full again. I made room now.

Also here is the Smash pivot slide video that I made. You can can put it up on the first page or something just to show the stuff you can now do in brawl +

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MVF2mM0yQeE&fmt=18
 

shanus

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Messages
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That PM Box never satys emptey no matter what. So I get tired of trashing it out. A week later it is full again. I made room now.

Also here is the Smash pivot slide video that I made. You can can put it up on the first page or something just to show the stuff you can now do in brawl +

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MVF2mM0yQeE&fmt=18
Hop on the irc if you have questions or stuff too if you want.
 

kupo15

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If ur downloading from my site, its slightly higher than before due to removing the No AD during tumble. increased from .484 to .4865. Testing out different hitstun levels and finding a good value. If you read the changelist.txt it explains all changes ive made.
are you nuts!! >_<
 

Sanu

Smash Champion
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Dec 22, 2005
Messages
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What was so bad about no AD in tumble anyways? I never had the chance to test it out.
 

GPDP

Smash Ace
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Dec 29, 2008
Messages
927
I don't see what you're talking about having to hold the shield button during the entire window to tech, kupo. I certainly don't do it consciously. I tech the exact same way I tech in Melee, and it didn't feel weird at all. Unless it's just the way I've been teching all along, and I didn't realize it. I do tend to hold the button a little bit. I never do a quick slap of the button if that's what you do.
 

kupo15

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With the addition of the teching code it really isnt that bad.
The people I play with know how to tech well even before the code and I still think its way too high. Im at .48
What was so bad about no AD in tumble anyways? I never had the chance to test it out.
There is nothing wrong with it. It adds to the punishment game that constantly changes depending on the situation. Here is what I had to say about it in the backroom.
This isn't adding depth, its making me mash wiggle as im about exit hitstun. Hardly depth, more like annoying. Also do you not notice the overwhelming dislike from the general public. Saying "Give it time" means nothing if they won't play the set. We don't need everything that melee had. Period. This adds no net external benefit besides the user having to wiggle mash if they want to exit first frame. Is that what you want to differ you from the scrubs? Joystick wiggle? This is like scraping from the bottom of the depth barrel here. Give me a break.

I was a competitive melee player and I hate this change. It doesn't fit well with the BAD, plain and simple. This is a hugely foreign code to the Brawl environment.
I disagree. It does add something. Its obvious that the best way to get out of combos is an Air dodge if your smart. Its also next to impossible to escape the tumble then air dodge faster than it is to air dodge from the tumble. So there are several occasions where this is beneficial.

When you go into the tumble near any platform or wall. These situations force teching instead of an Air dodge that autocancels when you land.The extra time it takes to wiggle and air dodge will cause you to miss a tech. Ulevo mentioned this several times and it was completely brushed off.

If you are getting juggled and the attacker is next to you, in vb or b+ without this code, you can spam AD until you escape usually. But with the code, the extra time to wiggle will cause you to get comboed further. You can decide to jump out instead but that can make things very risky. If you decide to jump you run the risk of getting hit out of it thus being put back into the tumble and will have a harder time returning because of now you have no jump and they are still on top of you. This doesn't happen without the code because you can simply Air dodge through people and it gives little to no reward to the attacker.

If you are hit in the air without a second jump, this code certainly makes a difference because not only can you not AD to break away if they are close, you can't even jump out which puts you at a very disadvantageous position. If they are on top of you, your only options are to attack or use specials. This is also a situation where FFing in the tumble might be a viable escape option. An up b might be a great way to escape, (marth) but if predicted, it could be easily air dodged thus your punished. This is the punishment for risking getting hit out of your second jump.

Not being able to AD in tumble is more than just wiggle out every time. It affects situations differently and can actually be used as a strategy to get players in these bad situations. Using smarts like this can actually warrant a decrease in hitstun so that escaping combos isn't just proper DI and a well timed air dodge. It adds depth by making you decide how you want to DI and how you want to react once in the tumble. Wrong decisions can put you back to square one where you have to find a new way to return to the stage which most likely will be harder.

I feel this adds a lot of excitement to the combo game where you don't have combos purely based on high hitstun and seeing what you can do only in the hitstun phase. It can open the possibility of lowering hitstun to where half of comboing is hitstun based, and half is mindgames and zoning which is lacking without this code. I immediately saw this while playing at gamers club. Oh and if it means anything, there several scrubs there and not one complained about this code and I fully explained it to them.

I'm about to run a heroic Nexus so I'm not gonna get too involved but I still haven't been given one good reason why this code should stay. This isn't a code like HAD that can entirely change the fact of the game. This is EXACTLY like L-canceling. It FORCES players to wiggle the stick to exit histun faster. It's a ghetto fix to lowering hitstun. You know what happens once everyone adjusts to this change? We end up raising hitstun again because the combos aren't strong enough.
I've already stated how this code functions nothing like the MLC.

MLC adds no depth, tumble code does.
The best option is to l cancel, the best option isn't always to wiggle out
Tumble code affects situations differently, MLC stays the same all the time

All I asked for was answers to it. If you don't want to its fine lol. Maybe kupo can answer it. I think its an important question. If clear benefits are established and a good reason for why punishment system needs adjustments then its fine.
If none of my above reasons were good enough for you (I think they were) then get this. No AD in tumble code fixes ganon's up B.
 

shanus

Smash Hero
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Nov 17, 2005
Messages
6,055
And for the whole picture, here is why I argued why the No AD code sucks (namely how half the cast has very poor options out of a juggle due to slow or not large dairs):

BTW my post response is the RED part.
Leaf demonstrated its possible to wiggle out the frame you go in tumble at 1/4th speed. It is not humanly possible to wiggle out and air dodge at the same time. There is no way wiggling plus air dodging is as fast as just air dodging. This is the flaw in your entire counter argument

I'm sorry but thats just not true. If its possible, people will abuse it. Any high–level player will be able to perform it with practice because it would be a necessary adjustment to their game. An analog (while not exactly the same) would be wobbling in melee. Very difficult, but how often would you see Wobbles mess it up? Or how often would you see the DaShizWiz multipleshine during a pillar to pressure shields more and mess it up? (This was fairly trivial, but I just rolled out of bed and it was just an example which came to mind)


I already explained how this is not a reflex and how wiggling out is not the best thing to do in all situations

Why are you not allowed to go from lying on the floor into a shield? A raw example, but its the best I can come up with.

I thought I mentioned why. The zoning and depth in the tumble game is simply not there. What is the big punishment in making a mistake by lets say getting hit out of your second jump without this code? Very little. It serves as a slap to the wrist because you can still air dodge out of tumble if they are close by.

Because often getting hit when you lose your second jump leads to your death? Or you predict the air dodge and punish them from there? Plain and simple you've gotten hit, exited hit stun meaning you have failed to capitalize on hitting your opponent again. Why should I be punished AGAIN for an opponent who failed to combo me further? I already have to worry (in most cases) about recovering where its already worlds easier to edgeguard me. This is what bothers me most. We are buffing offense again on the only chance you have to exit a combo. Offense does not need another buff. Fairly often, I play against chars like MK, G&W, Diddy, and others who all can do strong aerials out of a tumble and use them frequently. Without this code, people still add variety because all the mindgames are still there. Without it, its an indirect nerf to slower chars with worse priority/smaller hitboxes.

And how can you say there isn't any zoning go on? 99% of the time, the AD during the tumble is because the opponent got greedy instead of being patient. I know I pnish, and get punished all the time if I ry and AD too early as they do an empty jump and punish me hard for it. How is that not zoning?


Why don't you test it. See how much harder it is to escape a combo and make it back to the stage without any jumps remaining when an opponent is on top of you.

This is just what I mentioned before. This isn't necessarily a good thing. You are forcing chars without good options from below to take a huge nerf from this code. Characters like ROB, Dorf, etc get particularly **** on by it.

I have played with this code for about 4 hours today and I really see the depth it adds to the table and the reward it brings.

I already have played with it, and frankly I've never not hated a codeset this much in the entire time I've played Brawl+. I tried it at .484 and .48 and in both cases, HATED the negative impact on the juggle game. It wasn't a battle of enhanced mindgames as you described, but either absolutely the same (when i wiggled appropriately to an AD) or stupid slaughter because I didn't jiggle fast enough. I saw none of the benefits you have described, nor did shortline because we felt it totally detracted from the already competitive and fun experience we had as we had another layer of control removed from the game. I feel this is a needless buff to offense in a game where we frankly have buffed offense too much.
Please see the red text above. Plain and simple I don't see the need for it. I see your arguments better, but I don't understand why we are buffing offense further. And some characters survive without this much easier. Disjointed hitbox characters can easily enter a move which is as safe as an air dodge whereas many of the larger / slower characters cannot. I know your trying to be deep here, and have ambitious goals with the purpose of it, but I hope you can see why I don't like it.

Like with this codeset on, go play as ganondorf vs a good diddy. Watch yourself get juggled to oblivion by his uair and you literally have no options if you don't time that wiggle well. Its already a hard matchup without that code on, but ganon can still win it. With this code on, its not even funny.

Also, removing these codes conveniently gives just enough room for the new tech window, which is single handedly our biggest complaint in Brawl+ thus far.
 
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