COMPETITIVE Brawl+: Code Agenda

[ShortFuse]

New GeckoOS Brawl is compiled. I need Almas to wake up and check his email to test it.

 

[cAm8ooo]

New GeckoOS Brawl is compiled. I need Almas to wake up and check his email to test it.

I want to be the first to say, You Are Amazing

 

[Rikana]

New GeckoOS Brawl is compiled. I need Almas to wake up and check his email to test it.

Respects to you bro. Hopefully it all goes well.

 

[Ulevo]

New GeckoOS Brawl is compiled. I need Almas to wake up and check his email to test it.

I could kiss you right now, but there's a computer monitor blocking my way.

 

[abcool]

Thank goodness extra lines i love the No ad in tumble and also i have stretched this before..if you wanna help bowser make his shieldstun character specific, his fortress is a HUGE part of his metagame and brute force is bowser. if you reduce his a bit to be able to take the pressure from combos alot of the faster characters will think twice about approaching. This will save line space and it will help his ground game ALOT more.

 

[ShortFuse]

I tested it further. All's working on my end. I just need him to confirm it loaded the data into the memory. I can't because I don't have a USB Gecko

 

[Sanu]

Wow... You are pro ShortFuse <_<. Now to find the earlier version of code manager that doesn't limit the amount of lines you're using.

 

[shanus]

edit: nevermind

 

[ShortFuse]

Wow... You are pro ShortFuse <_<. Now to find the earlier version of code manager that doesn't limit the amount of lines you're using.

My Brawl+ Tweaker doesn't limit lines

 

[Rudra]

New GeckoOS Brawl is compiled. I need Almas to wake up and check his email to test it.

You sir, are awesome.
I hope everything goes well with it!

 

[trojanpooh]

How many lines will this save exactly?

 

[Sanu]

^ Uhhh, all of them?

 

[CountKaiser]

It should save however many lines are taken up by constants. Currently, that's about 100 lines.

Since frames changes and most likely KB are reliant on constants, we can now make an unlimited amount of tweaks to those areas.

 

[ShortFuse]

Almas broke his USB Gecko today so he can't test more. Hopefully it's just the cable (which is mini-usb) and his brother does have a PS3 so the controller cables are mini usb

basically i write to another section of the memory. it's pretty vast. i can't exactly remember how big it is.
almas had code before breaking his usb gecko and it loaded it in the memory but it froze the game (at least it booted). it's probably because he had some sort of ASM goto to go to memory location #2 but never told it to return. that's my guess. we'll have to see. he's out now and I don't have a USB Gecko

if' an ASM goto/return doesn't work, worst case scenario, we move the constants but that's a bunch of lines anyway. but even if that's the case, i'll work on making ocarina always use that location because right now i'm using two memory locations

 

[trojanpooh]

I didn't mention it before, but what I was getting at is this: will we be able to Brawl+ w/ texture hacks?

 

[ShortFuse]

I didn't mention it before, but what I was getting at is this: will we be able to Brawl+ w/ texture hacks?

sure, why not

after we expand line codes though, since the texture hack is 150+ lines

 

[kupo15]

But...how is being able to escape what you're supposed to be able to escape a problem? Does airdodging centralize the metagame or something? Is it as banworthy and detested by the community as MK? I simply don't see the point of implementing the code

You are correct in saying that once you are out of hitstun, you have the right to escape. However, you need to understand that there are 4 ways to escape, not one. Escaping via jump, fast fall or an attack is no less than an escape than using an air dodge. Just because you can't use air dodge to escape, doesn't mean you can't escape. You have 3 other options to escape with. What is the problem with escaping via air dodge? Nothing. The problem is that air dodging is better 9 times out of 10 than the other 3 escape options which isn't balanced and certainly doesn't add depth. Escaping combos essentially becomes, "DI well, time the air dodge perfectly" instead of "DI well, think about which of the 4 choices is the better option."

Trust me MK26, we'll never see eye to eye with them. Everything you want to say, and everything they want to say has been said a million times back and forth.

So you are just going to give up and not even try to see our side of the argument?

Exactly what I said is an issue. Characters like bowser get eaten alive by this. They do not have a safe exit strategy where chars like diddy do. How can you not see this!?!?!?!? Even as posted by DarkSonic, no player is consistently frame perfect, not even Silent_Wolf. As such, there is a 1-5 frame window it'll take for most players to consistently enter the tumble state. As such, any character without a safe exit strategy directly from the tumble is at an innate disadvantage compared to other members of the cast. What is a safe exit from a tumble? Example moves: diddy fair, MK nair/fair/dair, etc.

You are still thinking that the only escape option is an air dodge. I know air dodge looks, feels and fits the definition of "escape," but you are failing to realize that you have 4 escape options, not 1 and that air dodging should not be the best way to escape which overshadows the other 3.

(Yellow) How can specific characters not have a safe option out of the tumble and some do? What are your safe options? If your opponent purposely positioned himself to take away your air dodging options, you have jump, attack and maybe fast fall. These three are unaffected by the tumble so its nonsense to say that bowser or any other specific character has no safe options out of a tumble.

This is the stupidest discussion I've ever seen. Half of my posts which say this just get ignored and not mentioned again because its a KNOWN weakness of this code. Rather than confronting it, it is pushed aside in an attempt to convert more players saying all this idealistic bull**** without even acknowledging the consequences. This is buffing offense in a game where the offense is already dominant and nerfing any character reliant on defensive strategy. I don't care if this makes each each combo I pull as deep as my quantum mechanics course if it makes half the characters in game get the shaft, especially the characters who are already lacking NOW.

In conclusion, I question the skill, knowledge, and opinion of almost any player that doesn't immediately see the repercussions this has on the heavies. Plain and simple. This is broken. This is a biased code which amplifies "strings" aka true combos on heavies. I might as well do speed up the aerials of Falcon, Sonic, Fox, TL, Luigi, MK, Marth anda few others. That gives them more options too!

This is completely wrong. This code does not destroy characters and this code does not extend hitstun. You complain that it buffs offense over defense. It doesn't buff offense directly but rather, indirectly as to play off the decision making skills of the defender. You still have safe options other than the air dodge to escape if your opponent takes away your air dodge option. This is not broken. But if you set yourself up in a position to take away one of the defenders options and they can plow right through it regardless, this is more along the lines of broken.

This is a biased code which amplifies "strings" aka true combos on heavies

Strings are not true combos. Strings work when the defense makes the wrong choice and your skill for eliminating options and predicting which of the remaining options left they will take. If they get comboed by a string, its not because they had no choice to escape, rather, they chose the wrong option to escape with. I don't see how this is broken

You complain how big characters like Bowser get eaten alive by this code yet this code doesn't affect hitstun in anyway. It does not affect your ability to defend with a jump or attack which are viable escape options if your air dodge is taken. It seems to me that the problem you are explaining has nothing to do with this mechanic, but rather that your hitstun is too high, yet you refuse to admit it. I find it amusing how you blame me for wanting to excessively buff the offensive over defensive play (which this code does not) yet you are the one with the higher hitstun which actually buffs offense directly more than what I'm doing with the tumble code.

I don't care if this makes each each combo I pull as deep as my quantum mechanics course if it makes half the characters in game get the shaft, especially the characters who are already lacking NOW.

Your accusation of it destroying characters is the fault of your high hitstun, not because of this code.
Have fun playing a game where there is little to no, skill, depth, and creativity in escaping combos. Don't expect to drag me and others down with it simply because you don't want to actually address the core of the problem and spend the effort in being skilled at escaping combos instead of letting the game do it for you.

Although if you want me to outright debate your numbers, I will admit that every since Kupo's infamous "Pit Frame Data" thread I have always been a little skeptical about Brawl frame data (and how it is collected). That being said I'm not dismissing the validity of the numbers outright.

Two things. First, that frame data I collected was before the debug code. Secondly, that first thread wasn't supposed to be 100% accurate at first. It was supposed to be relative frame data to give people an idea of how fast moves are in relation to each other.

Almas broke his USB Gecko today so he can't test more. Hopefully it's just the cable (which is mini-usb) and his brother does have a PS3 so the controller cables are mini usb

basically i write to another section of the memory. it's pretty vast. i can't exactly remember how big it is.
almas had code before breaking his usb gecko and it loaded it in the memory but it froze the game (at least it booted). it's probably because he had some sort of ASM goto to go to memory location #2 but never told it to return. that's my guess. we'll have to see. he's out now and I don't have a USB Gecko

if' an ASM goto/return doesn't work, worst case scenario, we move the constants but that's a bunch of lines anyway. but even if that's the case, i'll work on making ocarina always use that location because right now i'm using two memory locations

Aww, that's a shame for Almas. Maybe Igglyboo will help you? I can't wait for it to be finished. Thanks your hard work!

 

[CountKaiser]

What options does Bowser have for getting out of strings other than air dodge? Also, are any of these other options feasible?

Ya know, if you just put some landing lag on air dodge this debate could be avoided. Then again, that promotes projectile spamming.

 

[abcool]

Kupo what is PW currently working on..is it the projectile glitches?

 

[MK26]

You are correct in saying that once you are out of hitstun, you have the right to escape. However, you need to understand that there are 4 ways to escape, not one. Escaping via jump, fast fall or an attack is no less than an escape than using an air dodge.

Just because you can't use air dodge to escape, doesn't mean you can't escape. You have 3 other options to escape with. Does NAT automatically give you these 3 options? No. The game does (except FF during tumble, which is as pointless as NAT). I'll say this 'till the cows come home, being able to airdodge out of tumble is not a negative trait of Brawl, and is definitely not one we need to remove.

What is the problem with escaping via air dodge? Nothing. The problem is that air dodging is better 9 times out of 10 than the other 3 escape options which isn't balanced and certainly doesn't add depth. Escaping combos essentially becomes, "DI well, time the air dodge perfectly" instead of "DI well, think about which of the 4 choices is the better option."

That is not a problem. You're talking like these options are the characters you pick at the Character Select Screen, where one will give you an inherent advantage and the others are weaker. I can see the metaphor, but ADing is not Meta Knight. It has counters. If you're hit high enough up that an AD won't get you to the ground, I can predict your airdodge and hit you during cooldown.

"Isn't balanced": why do you have to balance all the options and make them equal? Kirby's bair is his best aerial, used in the majority of situations from approach to punish to edgeguard. Should we nerf it? No. Kirby's fsmash is his best kill move. Do we prevent you from comboing into it? No. It's his best option for onstage kills 9 times out of 10, but that doesn't mean it isn't balanced.

I see this code as the equivalent but opposite of the No Stale Moves code. Stale moves makes you use more of your options. Removing that function (a decision that, imo, should be reversed when we get a kb code that can decrease the number of times a move can combo into itself) allows you to use only the better options, not having to worry that they get worse over time. NAT is the opposite, forcing you to think about the correct option, rather than having a preference for one.

======

On a different note, can anyone justify the addition of these codes:
Dashdance
Hitlag reduction
Dash cancel
Shield during dashdance
FF during tumble
Powershield window mod

Not that I necessarily disagree with their addition; I just want to know why they were added.

 

[Finns7]

I dont want to get in the way of the war or w/e but what happened to that buffer/handicap code switch.... I dont think its in the opening post anymore.

 

[Heroes_Never_Die]

Don't the defensive options need to be unequal in order to produce depth (unless your idea of depth is rolling dice)?

 

[ShortFuse]

Here's an update:

Good news: Almas' USB Gecko lives!
Bad news: My code isn't injecting properly...yet

 

[shanus]

Y
Your accusation of it destroying characters is the fault of your high hitstun, not because of this code.
Have fun playing a game where there is little to no, skill, depth, and creativity in escaping combos. Don't expect to drag me and others down with it simply because you don't want to actually address the core of the problem and spend the effort in being skilled at escaping combos instead of letting the game do it for you.

I already told you I played the set with both hitstun at .48 and .484. I actually played with it again today for an hour at .482. Stop trying to twist my words and get your facts straight. Give me examples of safe escapes for heavies that doesn't involve using my second jump or up+b leaving me as a sitting duck. You can have fun playing a game where it holds your hands combo'ing the big characters just so you can get that extra knee you couldn't before. I'm in this for balance and playability. You can add your up down left right a+b starts to tumble, doesn't mean its an unbiased addition.

Also frame data response please? You asked what the safe options were for other characters and I cited them explicitly with frame proof on the previous page. If you consider low % combo juggles with prevalent horizontal DI, every move I mentioned has I love how just about every single poster on here ignores the part where I use data to support my arguments.

And now you tell me I'm exaggerating and then say I won't be at all skilled at escaping combos? Come on now. I can say it takes more skill and more depth right now. Right now, I have 3 options exiting a tumble. Buffered aerial, Air Dodge, Jump (and then perform action). Right now both players need to predict the other. I anticipate the air dodge and perform an empty jump. The player in tumble can use one of the buffered aerials to counteract this in advance. This still can happen with your code. However, the characters which can do it are very limited to about half of the cast. This is just one example of many. Yours eliminates any air dodge game whatsoever for the cast which has does not have a safe aerial exit. How does this add more depth to the combo game. As a wiggle requires extra frames, it would be dumb to not buffer a jump in any tight situation, This serves to put the player in an even worse situation as now they are down a second jump ONLY because you removed their ability to air dodge effective. The combo is still broken. There is no more depth or yomi. All there is removal of options for half the cast.

Come on, prove to me it is not a disadvantage to bowser. I'd like to see hard proof as to why. I have fortress in the air (no invincibility for frames 1-5, small/weak hitbox on frame 6 unless body is very close), and my second jump.

Also, @ Eaode. You said character diversity for safe aerials out of tumble. However, your buffing the half of the cast which is clearly performing well in Brawl+ right now whereas nerfing the half that needs more help. This code serves nothing more than making combos easier.

AFK for most of the weekend, hopefully someone picks up where I've left off!


Edit, for ease:

ARGUMENTS FOR NAT:

- Airdodge is almost always the best option to escape a combo, as it is quick, and puts you in a much better position (especially if you can AD into the ground into shield and roll away etc.), so why wouldn't you airdodge?
This point has not been refuted by anyone.

No, it is not always the best option out of an air dodge. I have given strict examples. You said you didn't think Diddy's fair is a good option out of tumble. Have you tried it? Do you realize how its a brick wall in priority? How about MK nair? Or g&w nair or dair? Do I need to keep listing examples? Just because you always mash air dodge doesn't mean everyone does. It can be quite easy to see that your opponent is going for this approach and punish them directly out of tumble. However, can you do that with bowser?

Some data on Characters which can:
-Fox has 3 moves he can directly buffer out of hitstun at less than 5 frames for hitbox.
-Lucario has dair on frame 5.
-Diddy has frame 4 nair, frame 5 bair, frame 6 fair
-Luigi nair on frame 3 (omgpriority anyone?)
-MK: Nair on frame 3, Dair 4-5 (to make a nice comparison, Air Dodge Lasts 39 Frames
Invincible Frames 3 – 28). So nair and AD come out on EQUAL frames.
-Squirtle, 1 aerial on frame 5, 2 aerials on frame 4
-Falco All 4 aerials under 5 frames
-Wolf 3/4 aerials under 5 frames including fair
-Snake dair (weak hit) frame 3, bair frame 7

Characters who can't:
-Bowser has nothing till frame 9 unless he tries to fortress them (FROM THE AIR ....), and that isn't out till frame 6 or 7.
-Ike has bair on frame 8 which isn't very applicable, all others are like frame 14 r 15 and above
-Ganon has nair frame 8 which is a small hitbox, and uair frame 6.5 which is also not as applicable to juggles (so far seems the best out of heavies) Wizards foot is frame 17
-ROB I couldn't find frame data on
-Same with Charizard, no frame data I could find



I think you get the point (I really don't want feel like searching up any more frame data, I just rolled out of bed). So you can buffer these directly out of hitstun and in some cases, be even completely neutral with the option of air dodge in speed. So if someone needs to wait to see a hitstun exit, wiggle (miss approximately 3-5 frames even if they are good!), air dodge (wait another 2 more frames) they are approximately 5-7 frames post-hitstun to have a good option. The characters above who i listed all have options which can be guaranteed to initiate upon exit of hitstun w/ buffer and all connect before then. But poor old bowser, or ike, or any of them don't have these options. All they had before was buffered AD or jump AD. Do the hard numbers show you what I'm saying now? I'm not dreaming up a disparity. Its right there in front of you.

- Because Airdodge is always the best option, it makes the other options useless.

Well I just proved your main statement wrong. So yeah?

This destroys the balance, which destroys the choice, which destroys the DEPTH. With NAT, your escape options are more balanced, and thus you actually have to choose between several options, which is good. Remember how everyone dismissed Manual L-Cancel because it's extra tech skill without a choice? This puts more choice and depth into the game, so what's the problem?

Cuz you'd ever want to miss an L-cancel. Just like with a heavy, 99% you would ever want to air dodge or waste your second jump to just escape a trivial combo. Who are you kidding?

MK26 has argued that it is unnecessary to add this depth. That it is being added just because it can. If we have the opportunity to add depth to the game, why shouldn't we? Dash Dancing, Dash Canceling, and NASL all add depth to Brawl+, but they are not "necessary". What determines what is necessary? I just see it as a way to throw your opinion into the argument. Again, "necessary" or not, if we have the means to ad depth, why shouldn't we?

Because adding something isn't black and white. You just made an elaborate post saying the benefits, but dismiss the costs without even evidence besides a hunch? Well I just gave data which proved otherwise for a few random character boards.

I was very skeptical about NAT at first, and I still haven't fully adjusted to it (having not played against humans with it yet), but I really must side with Kupo on this one, because his argument is the only one that holds weight and makes sense, while the others seem to be desperate attempts to tear it down on technicality.


EDIT:
Also lol @ "What's the depth in choice?"

Wait, you haven't played any people with it either? I'm sorry but how can you even judge a code which is supposed to add depth when you are playing against a CPU? Its not desperate to tear it down on technicality. Its simple that it is a biased code.


SMK, jump instead of wiggle against my Fox. Its going to do you a lot of good. Especially as DK.

EDIT: Found some diddy frame data, and for SMK:

Donkey Kong's fastest option is frame 6 uair. If you tried to jump out, your adding 1 frame so you can be safe within an AD either on 4 (but be down a double jump AND moving higher in the air instead of lower) or have an aerial (at earliest by frame 7 or 8)
[/quote]

 

[Greenpoe]

How about instead of arguing NAT vs. no NAT, how about we discuss a possiblity of a code compromise? What if there was a character specific code that gave each character a certain amount of frames after hitstun for which they could not airdodge? (e.g., MK has fast aerials and multiple jumps, so he'd have a lot of frames, while Bowser really needs his airdodging, so his would be low).

 

[CloneHat]

How about instead of arguing NAT vs. no NAT, how about we discuss a possiblity of a code compromise? What if there was a character specific code that gave each character a certain amount of frames after hitstun for which they could not airdodge? (e.g., MK has fast aerials and multiple jumps, so he'd have a lot of frames, while Bowser really needs his airdodging, so his would be low).

That may end up being extremely biased an opinionated.
About the lower hitstun Kupo keeps talking about, is it part of the Plussery and if so how can I change it back to normal?

 

[leafgreen386]

The 3.3 plussery set uses .484 for hitstun (brawl's default is .4). The 4.0 plussery set (still in development) is currently using .4865 for hitstun, and will not be dropping below .485, which seems to be a critical threshold for a lot of moves. The 4.0 plussery set will not be using the tumble codes, but will be using the teching code.

 

[zxeon]

I can't wait for the next release.

 

[spunit262]

Here's an update:

Good news: Almas' USB Gecko lives!
Bad news: My code isn't injecting properly...yet

I bet the game is overwriting it on startup.

Also Taunt Canceling isn't an easy code not at all, I haven't made any progress at all.

 

[CloneHat]

You probably know this, but I think you have to make people able to fall off the edge while taunting, so you've got to take away whatever keeps people from sliding off the edge after a dash.

 

[Frogles]

Err first he would have to make a code to allow the ledge to cancel your run like it did in previous games. As it is now you run and let go at the edge and go through your normal stop animation.

edit: and taunts too x_o

 

[CloneHat]

Yah but for the run it's not necessary, he would just need to take out the auto-stop property of the taunt animation.

PS I don't actually know anything about codes, just speculating.

 

[spunit262]

I know, I dusted off my old N64 to do some research. The main problem is knowing if you are on a ledge.

 

[abcool]

I don't believe this no DI while using projectiles nerfs characters like link and samus not to mention spacies and ya'll here wasting time with taunt canceling...that needs to be fixed firstly it is as bad as the triple jump glitch. c'mon, kupo i thought you said PW was working on it... edit: nvm i heard pw just finished his project the color hack...thing. anyway just try to focus on fixing the broken mechanics first.

 

[Ulevo]

I don't believe this no DI while using projectiles nerfs characters like link and samus not to mention spacies and ya'll here wasting time with taunt canceling...that needs to be fixed firstly it is as bad as the triple jump glitch. c'mon, kupo i thought you said PW was working on it...

You're trying to tell me that projectile modifications are more important than this?

You sir have no taste.

 

[abcool]

You're trying to tell me that projectile modifications are more important than this?

You sir have no taste.

i still got my n64 with ssb it on my wii as well. i got my gc and melee as well..that means i got a time machine in my pocket for taunt canceling..we need the fixes first.

 

[CloneHat]

I could give you reasons why taunt cancel drastically improves the competitive level of gameplay, but the list is far too extensive.

 

[abcool]

I could give you reasons why taunt cancel drastically improves the competitive level of gameplay, but the list is far too extensive.

ok. i'll wait yet again....but i am telling you melee talks to me in my dreams, it tells me to come home and laser camp with fox..

 

[Ulevo]

ok. i'll wait yet again....but i am telling you melee talks to me in my dreams, it tells me to come home and laser camp with fox..

Are you kidding? Have you tried the new Fox?

 

[abcool]

Are you kidding? Have you tried the new Fox?

i've been using fox from since i brought brawl...his offense is great, but his defense(lasers are lacking) i play like i am fighting a pro and fox needs his laser precision back. i am a true fox main...i probably was the first to figure out that illusion trick on jungle japes..the illusion to grab the opposite side of the ledge...heard someone else discovered it though. edit: you see metaknight took fox's spotlight when it comes to offense i know i've been his victim twice once at a tourney and online..the defense part is what makes fox versatile and not just offense, he is already outclassed there :/