COMPETITIVE Brawl+: Code Agenda

[BrutalBrutal]

And btw I didn't say I flat out hated the most "natural" form of gravity code, I didn't like how powerful 1.15 was for some reason I can't point out atm. Its just like the hitstun code, I love it but +17% hit stun over saturates it to a point where the natural mechanic fix feels unnatural. I think a slight increase in gravity could be good and from my preliminary testing, 1.15 seems unnaturally fast. Consider this as a "diary" if you will. I am not saying anything concrete, its just what I am think atm. I will be doing some testing tomorrow and sat with my friends and Ill have a better sense of how I feel then...

I really must disagree. I think I know exactly why the 1.15 feels "unnatural" to you: it is because the same combos which you've been using until now are altered and no longer work the same way. You're trying things which are no longer possible, and forgetting that this code opens up a range of new options, combos etc.

Please, you are being far too reluctant to make any big alterations: Brawl+ is a project to change Brawl. Why, then, are so many of its main proponents so afraid of making changes?

I'm not advocating making massive, gamebreaking changes, just making appropriate adjustments. 110% fallspeed? You're just making a change small enough so that you don't notice it because you prefer the current way the game works. Either make the change, or don't. Convincing yourself that you are changing anything by making modifications that ultimately do not have a significant effect on the game is counterproductive. I must stress this: if you think an aspect of the game is fine the way it is: say it. Why trick yourself and others into believing that you have altered something when you haven't?

1.25x fallspeed and up. Let's stop pretending.

 

[BrutalBrutal]

Edit: Woops, double post. Sorry.

And btw I didn't say I flat out hated the most "natural" form of gravity code, I didn't like how powerful 1.15 was for some reason I can't point out atm. Its just like the hitstun code, I love it but +17% hit stun over saturates it to a point where the natural mechanic fix feels unnatural. I think a slight increase in gravity could be good and from my preliminary testing, 1.15 seems unnaturally fast. Consider this as a "diary" if you will. I am not saying anything concrete, its just what I am think atm. I will be doing some testing tomorrow and sat with my friends and Ill have a better sense of how I feel then...

I really must disagree. I think I know exactly why the 1.15 feels "unnatural" to you: it is because the same combos which you've been using until now are altered and no longer work the same way. You're trying things which are no longer possible, and forgetting that this code opens up a range of new options, combos etc.

Please, you are being far too reluctant to make any big alterations: Brawl+ is a project to change Brawl. Why, then, are so many of its main proponents so afraid of making changes?

I'm not advocating making massive, gamebreaking changes, just making appropriate adjustments. 110% fallspeed? You're just making a change small enough so that you don't notice it because you prefer the current way the game works. Either make the change, or don't. Convincing yourself that you are changing anything by making modifications that ultimately do not have a significant effect on the game is counterproductive. I must stress this: if you think an aspect of the game is fine the way it is: say it. Why trick yourself and others into believing that you have altered something when you haven't?

1.25x fallspeed and up. Let's stop pretending.

 

[Deleted member]

I say 1.25-1.4 fallspeed though 1.4 is high and 1.25 is just enough but can be more

 

[MuBa]

I suggested this a while ago, but I wanted to bring it up again.

Can there be a code where we maybe freeze the stage's hazards? It would make so man more stages more fun to play, and when there's Brawl+ tournies, there will be a LOT more variety in stages.

In all honesty I believe there is a way to disable or infinite the time for stage changes/hazards but we don't know how many lines of coding that will take.

I know where you're coming from though. Like for example, WarioWare level, if you can disable the "mini-games" then you officially have a viable stage for tournament use. Or disable the stupid laser, claw, and cannon attack that the Halberd level give off.

But if these codes were to be made, it would have to be the last codes to put in for Brawl+ since we have much more important things to put in.

 

[Osi]

In all honesty I believe there is a way to disable or infinite the time for stage changes/hazards but we don't know how many lines of coding that will take.

I know where you're coming from though. Like for example, WarioWare level, if you can disable the "mini-games" then you officially have a viable stage for tournament use. Or disable the stupid laser, claw, and cannon attack that the Halberd level give off.

But if these codes were to be made, it would have to be the last codes to put in for Brawl+ since we have much more important things to put in.

Yea, some levels would be nice to add in, but space is an issue. I would love a lylatt that doesn't shift side to side lol, but I doubt we get a code for it in the final set. The one good thing is that we have multiple awesome stages for neutral. yoshi's island, Battlefield, FD, and smashville are so well suited for it. Delfino is also much more neutral with the chaingrabs gone for the most part (mostly talking about DDD on this one, IC have awesome CG's but not easy ones to walk off stage with at any %).

I would love to see the collision on the windmill for PK stadium 1 changed too, but that one is just personal preference. I liked the way melee's collision worked a bit more on that stage in general.

 

[SGX]

I haven't tried 1.15 fallspeed yet, but anything more than 1.25 feels like too much to me.

1.3 and up does feel "unnatural" in a sense. It does make a lot of combos not work, it makes it much easier to kill yourself by dropping below the ledge. It hurts some character's recoveries. (Specifically characters with weak recovery) and it makes chasing people off the stage much less effective.

 

[MuBa]

I haven't tried 1.15 fallspeed yet, but anything more than 1.25 feels like too much to me.

1.3 and up does feel "unnatural" in a sense. It does make a lot of combos not work, it makes it much easier to kill yourself by dropping below the ledge. It hurts some character's recoveries. (Specifically characters with weak recovery) and it makes chasing people off the stage much less effective.

Considering Brawl is a very slow game and everybody's recovery is pretty good (especially the apex of their recovery is all "floaty") I believe having a higher fall speed (Around 1.3) sounds about good. Once we get the Dash Dance and increased jump momentum I am sure chasing people off the stage will feel more effective. Right now people can DI so freaking far and your Jumping momentum is so crap that you can't even properly juggle anyone.

 

[Deleted member]

"It does make a lot of combos not work,"

duh these codes are NOT meant to keep the game the same, and what recoveries exactly get nerfed?

 

[Yeroc]

I seriously have to disagree here. Everyone keeps going on about recovery nerfs, forgetting everything that we've already done. Hitstun made it much harder to survive until 200+ because you can't interrupt. Turning off ledge snapping further nerfed almost everyone's recovery because effective edgeguarding was reintroduced, and you want to make it even more difficult to live because you still think recovery is too easy? Keep this up and you'll be spoonfeeding 40% gimps to the entire cast.

Muba, your argument even runs counter to your objective. The higher gravity, the more effective horizontal DI will become. I've been playing on 1.125 and it's crazy how far some things will send you if you DI them just right. Increasing the gravity is just going to cause more problems with the codes we have, and probably even with those codes you want, not less.

 

[Almas]

Firstly - I thought I posted a "75%" decay for you in the other thread:

Stale Move Ratio Modifier 6 lines (spunit262) (all stales *0.75)
06FC0988 00000028
3D4CCCCD 3D99999A
3D8A3D71 3D75C28F
3D570A3D 3D3851EC
3D19999A 3D23D70A
3CF5C28F 3CF5C28F

That said, I plan on playing with no staling unless I find something horribly wrong with it.

I'm kind of torn on the higher gravities - at times it feels like the fall speed is pretty ridiculous, at other times it feels it really adds to the game. That said I work with an increased up grav too. I have a couple of ideas for making a reduced jump (and/or short hop) height code work, but I haven't had the time (or patience) to try them out yet. Got exams coming up and everything.

 

[kupo15]

I pretty much agree with all that mookie. It's not like people content with their current smash title will be happy to jump over and support a modded version of it which plays so different. It will take a while for these players to switch over.

I think that things like MAD/manual canceling/a harder edge game will add tech elements that people will be drawn too. A few months/years down the road when they are tired of how shallow brawl is they may see this tech heavy competitive replacement and want to give it a shot.

My largest disappointment with brawl was a small learning curve. It really felt like there wasn't much to learn besides a occasional gimmick move like DLX. I did come in half way through melee's life cycle, so there were a ton of techs to learn to use while in a match from the start. I loved staying up late at night playing with friends trying to get down L cancels and wavedashing. The lack of things like this really hurt my outlook on brawl. To me the game felt overly defensive/campy/simple.

Our entire group had been spending time trying our hardest to do combos and make brawl into a offensive game. A new wolf player showed up and did nothing but forward smash/down smash/bair/laser the entire match (I hold nothing against him for playing like that, was him just playing smart with what brawl had to offer). He did fine versus all of us, and I must admit it was the turning point. I began to notice how easy the game was with decent spacing/camping and just relying on your powerful counter attack moves.

I think that once brawl players have played a bit longer on what retail brawl offers they may want more from the game. Brawl+ can give them the extra deep elements that retail brawl lacks IMO. I really would be sad if we left out tech or game changing elements just to cater to these players which will likely not switch over for a similar game. I think they will switch over later because something so different looks interesting.

I don't know if you noticed, but the game has been naturally getting more technical with the addition to hit stun, l canceling, ledges, and soon to come shield nerfs. You don't need MAD to "separate the players" and it doesnt really add that much technical elements that benefit the game as a whole in a positive way with the reasons we have discussed. If your saying that brawl+ will eventually be like brawl because the skill gap is not wide enough without MAD, then how come Isai is 64 smash king and that the gap between Isai and the other pros are like the gap between MK and snake? Keep in mind, MAD is not in 64 as well as other techniques that Brawl+ has.

Edit: Woops, double post. Sorry.



I really must disagree. I think I know exactly why the 1.15 feels "unnatural" to you: it is because the same combos which you've been using until now are altered and no longer work the same way. You're trying things which are no longer possible, and forgetting that this code opens up a range of new options, combos etc.
Please, you are being far too reluctant to make any big alterations: Brawl+ is a project to change Brawl. Why, then, are so many of its main proponents so afraid of making changes? Brawl doesn't need big changes. It needs small tweaks and I'm not afraid to make changes

I'm not advocating making massive, gamebreaking changes, just making appropriate adjustments. 110% fallspeed? You're just making a change small enough so that you don't notice it because you prefer the current way the game works. Either make the change, or don't. Convincing yourself that you are changing anything by making modifications that ultimately do not have a significant effect on the game is counterproductive. I must stress this: if you think an aspect of the game is fine the way it is: say it. Why trick yourself and others into believing that you have altered something when you haven't?

1.25x fallspeed and up. Let's stop pretending.

(Orange is my response)
Wow, that has got to be the most ignorant thing I've seen in a while. How about kupo thinks for himself instead of someone else who has not been playing with him or knows anything about him make the decisions for kupo. How do you know that I think its unnatural because my combos don't work? I'll tell you something, it's NOT that thank you very much. Me saying "I haven't figured it out yet I'll get back to you" does NOT give you a license to make bull**** up and say that's my reason. It means, "Give me ****ing time to get back to you!!"

/rant

Anyway, Yeroc has some really good points.

Something I realized last night that looks bad on paper but needs to be tested in practice. Since gravity pulls down more, with should also make DIing down and away should also be more powerful to escape combos. If this is the case, then a high gravity setting could actually hurt the combo system for the majority of the moves. So it would seem as if Brawls powerful DI system doesn't work well in high gravity or at the very least, this could mean that lowering the hitstun wouldn't be necessary since it would be harder to catch up...but then again it could be too much for vertical kb moves.

ONCE AGAIN, THIS IS ON PAPER AND IS SOMETHING THAT I STILL NEED TO BE TESTED AND I ENCOURAGE THOSE WHO LIKE 1.3ISH GRAVITY TO DO THE SAME!!!

 

[Osi]

I don't know if you noticed, but the game has been naturally getting more technical with the addition to hit stun, l canceling, ledges, and soon to come shield nerfs. You don't need MAD to "separate the players" and it doesnt really add that much technical elements that benefit the game as a whole in a positive way with the reasons we have discussed. If your saying that brawl+ will eventually be like brawl because the skill gap is not wide enough without MAD, then how come Isai is 64 smash king and that the gap between Isai and the other pros are like the gap between MK and snake? Keep in mind, MAD is not in 64 as well as other techniques that Brawl+ has.

Uhhh... I didn't list just MAD, and I hope it didn't come off that way. A pro MAD rant certainly wasn't my intention. I also listed L cancel as being a technique to learn. I was simply pointing out that brawl lacked any of these, and keeping anything out for the sake of people happy with the shallow game that is brawl would be a waste of time. They will either come over later looking to play a game with these new elements, or not play at all. The edge game was horrid, no real combos, no lag cancels, and yea no WD. MAD isn't needed to show the difference in skill levels. Hitstun and manual L cancel alone could do that easily. I just feel MAD adds yet another little thing to get down tech wise that entertains me. I find learning both the combo/counter system and the little tech tricks in a game keeps me practicing. In fact the edge codes did a world of change for the game as well. I expect a much deeper edge and next to the ledge game now.

 

[leafgreen386]

The problem is the only two things you mentioned were MLC and MAD. It's pretty much unanimous that ALC>MLC already, which just leaves MAD...

 

[kupo15]

Uhhh... I didn't list just MAD, and I hope it didn't come off that way. A pro MAD rant certainly wasn't my intention. I also listed L cancel as being a technique to learn. I was simply pointing out that brawl lacked any of these, and keeping anything out for the sake of people happy with the shallow game that is brawl would be a waste of time. They will either come over later looking to play a game with these new elements, or not play at all. The edge game was horrid, no real combos, no lag cancels, and yea no WD. MAD isn't needed to show the difference in skill levels. Hitstun and manual L cancel alone could do that easily. I just feel MAD adds yet another little thing to get down tech wise that entertains me. I find learning both the combo/counter system and the little tech tricks in a game keeps me practicing. In fact the edge codes did a world of change for the game as well. I expect a much deeper edge and next to the ledge game now.

The rant mostly came from brutal, but you still pushing MAD despite what we have been talking about since the release of the new codes had a little to do with it....

And what leaf said is correct also

 

[SketchHurricane]

A D3 will prob not support something that takes away his main techs, aswell as meta, and falco. These guys wanna win they dont care if its fun or fair, now this isnt right, but there is no denying it.

People who just want to win with those characters will either learn to win with a new move/technique set, or they will pick a new main.

I think Osi's comment answers that concern, Finns. Most people who main a high tier do so becasue they are good. If Brawl+ favors different characters, that type of player will have no problem switching to the more viable characters. Further more, most of the high tier characters are still good! Vanilla Brawl favored spacing and priority, Brawl+ shifts focus to combos and edgeguarding, to where spacing and priority are now simply one aspect of your play style as opposed to the end-all. So those characters who excelled before still have that going for them, but characters who need combo's and edgeguarding now have something going for them as well. To sum things up, if your the type of person who played D3 because of his effective chaingrab, that shows that you are the type of person who will not mind changing characters if the tier shifts. If your the type of person who played D3 just because you liked him, guess what? He is still good without the chaingrab.

I'm not advocating making massive, gamebreaking changes, just making appropriate adjustments. 110% fallspeed? You're just making a change small enough so that you don't notice it because you prefer the current way the game works. Either make the change, or don't. Convincing yourself that you are changing anything by making modifications that ultimately do not have a significant effect on the game is counterproductive. I must stress this: if you think an aspect of the game is fine the way it is: say it. Why trick yourself and others into believing that you have altered something when you haven't?

1.25x fallspeed and up. Let's stop pretending.

That kind of rang true, IMO. I think the best mindset would be to take the maximum we can tolerate and then dial it down from there. This is just my speculation, but it seems like the people advocating the 1.15 range started from 1.25 and went down, whereas the people advocating 1.25+ started at 1.5 and went down...I did the latter. 1.5 instantly looked, felt and operated like too much. 1.4 was more reasonable, but still looked and felt like too much. 1.3 was the first value I used that felt like a playable game with the gravity change. I went down to 1.25, and I suddenly found myself actually watching the fallspeed to remind myself that it was on. I felt like it was a bit low since I had trouble noticing it, and that's how I decided on 1.3.

Yea, some levels would be nice to add in, but space is an issue. I would love a lylatt that doesn't shift side to side lol, but I doubt we get a code for it in the final set. The one good thing is that we have multiple awesome stages for neutral. yoshi's island, Battlefield, FD, and smashville are so well suited for it. Delfino is also much more neutral with the chaingrabs gone for the most part (mostly talking about DDD on this one, IC have awesome CG's but not easy ones to walk off stage with at any %).

Actually, that level speed code is supposed to actually freeze certain hazards, or so I heard. People have actually played Wario with no minigames! I have yet to test this...

But the observation about Delfino is interesting. We'll definitely have to test wall infinites and see if there are any changes there.

 

[Revven]

In all honesty I believe there is a way to disable or infinite the time for stage changes/hazards but we don't know how many lines of coding that will take.

I know where you're coming from though. Like for example, WarioWare level, if you can disable the "mini-games" then you officially have a viable stage for tournament use. Or disable the stupid laser, claw, and cannon attack that the Halberd level give off.

But if these codes were to be made, it would have to be the last codes to put in for Brawl+ since we have much more important things to put in.

Set the Level Speed Mod to zero and stages with hazards freeze where they belong (including F-Zero Port Town Aero Dive, it never moves). Warioware Inc. stayed at its neutral position, PKMN Stadium 1 & 2 both stay at their neutral potisions and even Castle Siege will stay at its first stage I BELIEVE (I might be wrong on this).

It's only a few lines of code, try it out.

 

[MookieRah]

Set the Level Speed Mod to zero and stages with hazards freeze where they belong (including F-Zero Port Town Aero Dive, it never moves). Warioware Inc. stayed at its neutral position, PKMN Stadium 1 & 2 both stay at their neutral potisions and even Castle Siege will stay at its first stage I BELIEVE (I might be wrong on this).

Wow, if that is the case then that is freaking awesome. Honestly those stages would be good if it wasn't for the BS inherent in them, so yeah, that would add a lot toward stage diversity in the game.

Since gravity pulls down more, with should also make DIing down and away should also be more powerful to escape combos. If this is the case, then a high gravity setting could actually hurt the combo system for the majority of the moves.

I think the solution to that is to make a stale move adjustment. I'm actually going to test out a stale move adjustment to where the moves are always at 70% their maximum, as I think it would increase the amount of reliable combos in the game without resorting to increasing hit stun.

1.25x fallspeed and up. Let's stop pretending.

I disagree. Regardless of what you think it doesn't have to feel like Melee to be better for competitive play. I wish it could feel like that and be ideal, but this more than likely isn't the case. High gravity changes nerf the heck out of vertical KOs and there are only a handful of reliable vertical KOs in this game already. I don't think it's right to nerf them even further, as well as nerf people's recoveries more like what Yeroc was saying.

 

[Osi]

The rant mostly came from brutal, but you still pushing MAD despite what we have been talking about since the release of the new codes had a little to do with it....

And what leaf said is correct also

Fair enough, I did only mention MLC and MAD specifically. I also do agree that currently ALC is much better. I've been using ALC instead of MLC for a while now.

 

[Almas]

I'm not sure that there's a way to make ALL moves deal 0.7 through the stale move modifier.

 

[MookieRah]

I'm not sure that there's a way to make ALL moves deal 0.7 through the stale move modifier.

Could you not simply put the value .7 in all of the spots? Seems to make sense to me.

 

[cAm8ooo]

Set the Level Speed Mod to zero and stages with hazards freeze where they belong (including F-Zero Port Town Aero Dive, it never moves). Warioware Inc. stayed at its neutral position, PKMN Stadium 1 & 2 both stay at their neutral potisions and even Castle Siege will stay at its first stage I BELIEVE (I might be wrong on this).

It's only a few lines of code, try it out.

Sounds amazing. I will test this out for sure. But i wish you could choose which stages moved and which didn't. For instance, i dont mind pokemon stadium 1 changing but i would like 2 to stay the same. Is this possible?

 

[Magus420]

The numbers in the spots aren't the multipliers themselves. They are the reductions on the multiplier for a move in that slot in the 9 long stale moves queue. Putting 0.7 in all of them would likely either crash the game, cause some very weird things to happen, or loop around or something. The multiplier in that case for a fully stale move should be -5.3. (1.00 - (0.7 x 9))

I wonder what would end up happening? xD

 

[kupo15]

Maybe you would edit the 1 liner "no decay" code to use .7? Or how about using the no decay code with .7 damage ratio?

 

[leafgreen386]

If you used .7 damage ratio, all attacks would send you 70% of the distance they normally do...

 

[Shadic]

The Speed Stage Modifier Set to zero will completely stop stages. Including all those hazards you hat. But beware - Halberd never takes off, Big Blue doesn't move, Luigi's Mansion has some very... Interesting Side Effects.

I actually enjoy playing Green Greens though, so that's something.

Edit:
The code is:

Level Speed Modifier (Stops stage) [Phantom Wings]
4A000000 90000000
1416A904 XXXXXXXX
E0000000 80008000

 

[Dan_X]

I agree, but im just saying you dont want to go to hardcore imo idk, How do you know the melee crowd will take brawl+ seriously? or the competitive brawl crowd? A D3 will prob not support something that takes away his main techs, aswell as meta, and falco. These guys wanna win they dont care if its fun or fair, now this isnt right, but there is no denying it.

I hope it gets a good following but from what I hear people are always ravaging it verbally. The people I showed here didnt like it until they sat down and got used to it, but they prob would of not gotten into it if I had on the ledgecodes aswell as the the gravity that require you to relearn you attacks and timing, this isnt a bad thing but people prob dont want to do that only time will tell.

For one, I main Falco (he's one of them anyway)... the loss of his CGs wasn't a big deal, though I used them heavily in vanilla Brawl. The reason I could accept these changes was because Falco, like every other character in the game, got better. He can combo, not only that, but he can combo into laser locks, this assumes that the enemy misses a tech of course. He's just as deadly if not more so without his CGs. It's not a big deal. Also, I didn't pick Falco because I wanted to win, I picked all of my characters, long before the tiers. It just so happened that he landed top tier. Brawl+ on the other hand is far different from vanilla Brawl. The tiers are almost ENTIRELY different-- we won't have an accurate tier listing for Brawl+ until we have a standard list of codes, and even then it would take months of tournaments. Think of Falcon for example, he's amazing now, in the right hands anyway. It's awesome.

I really must disagree. I think I know exactly why the 1.15 feels "unnatural" to you: it is because the same combos which you've been using until now are altered and no longer work the same way. You're trying things which are no longer possible, and forgetting that this code opens up a range of new options, combos etc.

Please, you are being far too reluctant to make any big alterations: Brawl+ is a project to change Brawl. Why, then, are so many of its main proponents so afraid of making changes?

I'm not advocating making massive, gamebreaking changes, just making appropriate adjustments. 110% fallspeed? You're just making a change small enough so that you don't notice it because you prefer the current way the game works. Either make the change, or don't. Convincing yourself that you are changing anything by making modifications that ultimately do not have a significant effect on the game is counterproductive. I must stress this: if you think an aspect of the game is fine the way it is: say it. Why trick yourself and others into believing that you have altered something when you haven't?

1.25x fallspeed and up. Let's stop pretending.

I do agree that anything below 1.25 is rather pointless. The combos are all still there at 1.25. Some combos might be a bit different now, but they're still there in some form. One of the characters I played quite a bit with at this level was Falcon (I played like 4 others as well). His comboing was still great. I'm going to try 1.30 next.

I say 1.25-1.4 fallspeed though 1.4 is high and 1.25 is just enough but can be more

yeah, 1.4 is too high. 1.35 seemed a tad bit much too. I have yet to try 1.3 but I hear it is great. 1.25 seemes perfect imho however, my friend didn't notice the increased speed that much. hmm.

 

[Almas]

Maybe you would edit the 1 liner "no decay" code to use .7? Or how about using the no decay code with .7 damage ratio?

You misunderstand how the no decay code works. It merely functions like the customized decay code except it writes a fixed value of decay to every single slot (in this case it's 0000, so every position in the list has 00000000 as the decay multiplier). It doesn't customize different data fields.

 

[ssbbFICTION]

There has to be a way to freeze only certain stages

or give wario a better grab release

 

[Almas]

I believe there is a way to only freeze specific stages, but the code to do that for one specific stage is about the same length as the code to do it for all of them.

 

[BrutalBrutal]

kupo: Brawl doesn't need big changes. It needs small tweaks and I'm not afraid to make changes

I would argue that Brawl needs whatever changes necessary to make it as competitive (and also fun) as possible. Nothing more, but also nothing less.

kupo: Wow, that has got to be the most ignorant thing I've seen in a while. How about kupo thinks for himself instead of someone else who has not been playing with him or knows anything about him make the decisions for kupo. How do you know that I think its unnatural because my combos don't work? I'll tell you something, it's NOT that thank you very much. Me saying "I haven't figured it out yet I'll get back to you" does NOT give you a license to make bull**** up and say that's my reason. It means, "Give me ****ing time to get back to you!!"

I'm sorry, kupo, I really didn't mean to put words in your mouth. I am just increasingly frustrated at the conservatism I see whenever we are given new modifiable values to tinker with. I was railing against the general trend towards setting these values too low, and it was unfair of me to aim it against you, especially as you are an advocate of higher rather than lower hitstun. I wasn't claiming that I was sure of why you didn't like high fallspeed, but rather that I thought that the community (using you as an example) was inclined to shying away from change for the reasons I stated. I shouldn't have directed it at you specifically. Please don't take offence.

SketchHurricane:That kind of rang true, IMO. I think the best mindset would be to take the maximum we can tolerate and then dial it down from there. This is just my speculation, but it seems like the people advocating the 1.15 range started from 1.25 and went down, whereas the people advocating 1.25+ started at 1.5 and went down...I did the latter. 1.5 instantly looked, felt and operated like too much. 1.4 was more reasonable, but still looked and felt like too much. 1.3 was the first value I used that felt like a playable game with the gravity change. I went down to 1.25, and I suddenly found myself actually watching the fallspeed to remind myself that it was on. I felt like it was a bit low since I had trouble noticing it, and that's how I decided on 1.3.

EXACTLY! Look at the bolded text. That is precisely what I have been trying to say. Putting it as low as possible and then cranking it up will result in the minimum possible viable value. I think that the ideal value for any modifier is close to the maximum viable value. It is just as appropriate an approach to set the value extremely high and then lower the value until nothing seriously broken remains.

Orca: I do agree that anything below 1.25 is rather pointless. The combos are all still there at 1.25. Some combos might be a bit different now, but they're still there in some form. One of the characters I played quite a bit with at this level was Falcon (I played like 4 others as well). His comboing was still great. I'm going to try 1.30 next.

Exactly. Anything below 1.25 is pointless. If something has detrimental effects on the game, like increasing fallspeed [ostensibly] does, let's not do it at all, rather than turn it up to a level where its detriment is not noticeable at the cost of its benefits also being imperceptible. I argue that the pros of increased fallspeed outweigh the cons, and that therefore it should be set to a noticeable, but not ridiculous, level.

On another, related, topic, the "higher maximum horizontal aerial speed" and "retain momentum of your dash when you jump" should be higher priority. I don't even think that they're listed. They would make the game feel a lot smoother and tighter, and they are even more important for comboing in light of increased gravity.

 

[zxeon]

I believe this news.

 

[Finns7]

Falco is a **** party still, I was mainly talking about D3. He now has to learn a new way to **** instead of just cging.

On the whole gravity thing I started out with low gravity, so I did feel a difference, a noticeable diff but not that extreme. Ive been thinking for a while that there are things in brawl that are more important than these modifications, like the triple jump glitch aswell as grab releasing and skilless cg's. I think we need to relax and try out a code set and see how it does at tourneys and then add on instead of taking off stuff if it gets broken, this might push people away and make people have a negative view on brawl+ which some already have somewhat.

 

[kupo15]

I would argue that Brawl needs whatever changes necessary to make it as competitive (and also fun) as possible. Nothing more, but also nothing less.

Ok, but I don't feel extreme changes are needed. I didn't say that gravity is a bad idea, but I think 1.3 is too radical especially based on me playing today at 1.1. It made a difference but was a slight change that I think should be the maximum

I'm sorry, kupo, I really didn't mean to put words in your mouth. I am just increasingly frustrated at the conservatism I see whenever we are given new modifiable values to tinker with. I was railing against the general trend towards setting these values too low, and it was unfair of me to aim it against you, especially as you are an advocate of higher rather than lower hitstun. I wasn't claiming that I was sure of why you didn't like high fallspeed, but rather that I thought that the community (using you as an example) was inclined to shying away from change for the reasons I stated. I shouldn't have directed it at you specifically. Please don't take offence.

I hear you, Im frustrated and lose my patience more and more

EXACTLY! Look at the bolded text. That is precisely what I have been trying to say. Putting it as low as possible and then cranking it up will result in the minimum possible viable value. I think that the ideal value for any modifier is close to the maximum viable value. It is just as appropriate an approach to set the value extremely high and then lower the value until nothing seriously broken remains.

Normally I would go top to bottom like in hitstun...but some things like gravity I personally think that going from low to high is better. I feel its something that needs a slight adjustment. The thing is, brawl is built around a floaty engine and environment. If you go against this by jacking up the gravity, things don't work the way they should and they also have bad side effects. I also think that 1.3 nerfs vertical kills too much. i wouldn't be surprised if MK can combo his tornado...with a tornado at 1.3!

Exactly. Anything below 1.25 is pointless. If something has detrimental effects on the game, like increasing fallspeed [ostensibly] does, let's not do it at all, rather than turn it up to a level where its detriment is not noticeable at the cost of its benefits also being imperceptible. I argue that the pros of increased fallspeed outweigh the cons, and that therefore it should be set to a noticeable, but not ridiculous, level.

Anything below 1.25 is not pointless. Just because its a slight change doesn't mean it changes the game in a profound way. You have to remember that not only are you limiting kb a little with the gravity, but FFs become faster also. 1.1 is plenty fast...really!

On another, related, topic, the "higher maximum horizontal aerial speed" and "retain momentum of your dash when you jump" should be higher priority. I don't even think that they're listed. They would make the game feel a lot smoother and tighter, and they are even more important for comboing in light of increased gravity.

I think it is important also, but myself and others believe that shield nerfs and DDing are more important. This is another thing I believe should be a slight increase similar to that of gravity

 

[BrutalBrutal]

This is another thing I believe should be a slight increase similar to that of gravity

I agree, except in the case of Captain Falcon. He needs to be able to cross more than half of FD in a Short Hop again. On the other hand, increasing MK or Marth's horizontal airspeed is a scary thought.

 

[Vulcan55]

I just tried out a set of codes including "No auto Sweetspot" and the first thing my brother did was hug the ledge as CF and the game froze.

EDIT: and lagless ledges, so it might be either one.

 

[Osi]

I've used the no sweetspot on shiek/falcon/falco/IC/marth/fox/D3/luigi/mario/ike/zelda/jiggly/samus now.... no issues, so I'm betting you have another code not working or it's copied wrong.

Out of curiosity what other codes do you have on?

 

[SuSa]

Does anyone know where I can easily find the no sweetspot code?

Or I'm just ********...


Also about auto-L-Canceling.

Seriously, Tink's Dair and Falcon's SHFF'd Knee become way to fast and OP'd at 1/2 lag.

Perhaps we should try different values for lag reduction?


1/3? 1/4? (I'm learning towards 1/4... its some, but not IMMENSE)

I mean, L-Canceling took some techskill to do (kupo says its buggy or something? so I stopped using it, and replaced it with auto-L-Cancel, but that just makes some moves like Toon Link's dair near impossible to punish..... )

Any ideas about this?

:mewtwo:

 

[zxeon]

I just tried out a set of codes including "No auto Sweetspot" and the first thing my brother did was hug the ledge as CF and the game froze.

EDIT: and lagless ledges, so it might be either one.

I've used the no sweetspot on shiek/falcon/falco/IC/marth/fox/D3/luigi/mario/ike/zelda/jiggly/samus now.... no issues, so I'm betting you have another code not working or it's copied wrong.

Out of curiosity what other codes do you have on?

What are you two on about? What no auto sweetspot code?

 

[Finns7]

Where have you been zxeon?

 

[Problem2]

No Auto Sweetspotting(v1.0): 45 Lines (Phantom Wings)
80000000 80623320
80000001 00000000
60000006 00000000
60000003 00000001
4A001000 00000000
4A101001 00000000
36000000 00000032
32000000 0000000F
58010000 00000004
DE000000 80008180
58010000 00000060
DE000000 80008180
92210002 0000007C
92210003 00000018
58010000 0000007C
58010000 0000002C
92210004 00000004
4A001002 00000000
C078172C 0000000B
9421FF80 BC410008
3C808000 60841808
80A40008 80C4000C
80E40010 C0060010
C026001C FC000840
40810014 890700D4
7108007F 990700D4
4800000C 890700D5
990700D4 B8410008
38210080 4E800020
60000000 00000000
34000038 00000111
E2000001 00000000
80100001 00000008
62000000 00000001
E200000F 00000000
80000001 00000000
80100000 00000244
62000000 00000000
E0000000 80008000
C278172C 00000002
98030001 80010014
60000000 00000000
C27816E0 00000002
98030001 80010014
60000000 00000000

@zxeon: This code prevents characters from clinging to the ledge halfway through a recovery move. You now have to use the tip of the recovery move to sweetspot.