COMPETITIVE Brawl+: Code Agenda

[kupo15]

I just tried out a set of codes including "No auto Sweetspot" and the first thing my brother did was hug the ledge as CF and the game froze.

EDIT: and lagless ledges, so it might be either one.

It shouldn't freeze. Make sure your not using the character speed code and that the codes you are using are copied correctly..

 

[zxeon]

I found the code and tested it with just about everyone that matters. It's pretty great. I'm very pleased.

 

[SuSa]

How does the no auto-sweetspot affect:

Olimar
Zero Suit Samus
(Tether recoveries, if you haven't figured it out)
Do you have to grab the edge in helpless? Because this may screw characters like Diddy over (and I even think thats mentioned in the code, you have to "aim more carefully")

:mewtwo:

 

[storm92]

How does the no auto-sweetspot affect:

Olimar
Zero Suit Samus
(Tether recoveries, if you haven't figured it out)
Do you have to grab the edge in helpless? Because this may screw characters like Diddy over (and I even think thats mentioned in the code, you have to "aim more carefully")

:mewtwo:

Tether recoveries are barely affected, and in no way nerfed. It'll shoot for the ledge as always.

And no, think of Melee's system of edges. You can still grab on at certain points of your recovery (let's use Fox's for example, at the very beginning, towards the end, or when you're in helpless) but if you try to grab on halfway through you'll go straight through the edge. Not literally obviously, but you won't snap on.
It's more of timing more carefully than aiming.

 

[SuSa]

Tether recoveries are barely affected, and in no way nerfed. It'll shoot for the ledge as always.

And no, think of Melee's system of edges. You can still grab on at certain points of your recovery (let's use Fox's for example, at the very beginning, towards the end, or when you're in helpless) but if you try to grab on halfway through you'll go straight through the edge. Not literally obviously, but you won't snap on.
It's more of timing more carefully than aiming.

Ah, exactly what I thought it was.

Thanks for the quick answer, time to go put it up to get used to it.

My Brawl has a Melee feel with the thought of "oh yah, I can wavedash!" whenever I get a kill.

I need to get in the habit of wavedashing in Brawl... it just feels so weird (I do it all the time in Melee, and it never carries over to brawl. In my head, I can keep melee, brawl, and brawl + as seperate games. But right now brawl + is new, so I keep playing it like Brawl, but with extra combos.)

I also really, really like 11.75% hitstun.... Captain Falcon for high tier at least...

Dthrow > Pivot Regrab > Dthrow is just to good of a chaingrab.

 

[storm92]

Heh that's why I stopped using MAD. It was more of a oh hey yeah let's do some wavetaunting after the kill than anything else for me.
Plus too much coding space used + problems with the code overall= bad.

 

[SuSa]

I haven't found it to be to buggy for me.

Every once in a while I do wavedash for spacing and etc. But it's not on the top of my mind.

I guess 6-7 months of playing a game without it really drills it into your head thats its gone, then you airdodge and go "OH YAH!" then wavedash a few times, then forget again.

And wavetaunting is to good, I don't know what you're talking about. xD

:mewtwo:

 

[storm92]

I love wavetaunting. xD
And I didn't mean bugs, just problems with the competitive aspect.
Such as wavedash stacking, zero lag after landing (well one consequently makes the other possible, but you get the point), and the nullification of dashing/walking for most chars.
Thats my opinion at least, I'm just saying it most likely won't end up in the final list for Brawl+ so I wouldn't get too used to it.

 

[zxeon]

I love wavetaunting. xD
And I didn't mean bugs, just problems with the competitive aspect.
Such as wavedash stacking, zero lag after landing (well one consequently makes the other possible, but you get the point), and the nullification of dashing/walking for most chars.
Thats my opinion at least, I'm just saying it most likely won't end up in the final list for Brawl+ so I wouldn't get too used to it.

Don't listen to him. Most of the stuff he's complaining about can be fixed by modifing the current code. There is nothing wrong with WD or MAD just the current code. Play how you want.

By the way Storm WDing is good you're just doing it wrong.

 

[SketchHurricane]

...Such as wavedash stacking, zero lag after landing (well one consequently makes the other possible, but you get the point), and the nullification of dashing/walking for most chars...

QFT. PW will have to come back and tweak MAD if he has the time/will.

Anyway, Bleak and I ran some numbers with gravity. If I'm not mistaken, someone mentioned Fox's difference in upsmash kill potential with gravity, but we wanted to test some other character's moves as well. Here is what we found:

[COLOR=White][U]killing Mario on FD (no DI / with DI)[/U][/COLOR]
               no codes + .5 HS (10%) + 1.1 FS / 1.2 FS / 1.25 FS / 1.3 FS
[COLOR=PaleGreen]Luigi upB      50/54          -         52/55    53/57    54/_      55/_[/COLOR]
[COLOR=Purple]Oli PupSmash   79/88          -         80/90    82/91    83/_      84/_[/COLOR]
[COLOR=DarkSlateBlue]Oli PupThrow   114/125        -         116/127  119/129  120/_     121/_[/COLOR]
[COLOR=Pink]Jiggz Rest     67/74          -           -        -      73/_      74/_[/COLOR]
[COLOR=Gray]Snake upTilt   102/112        -         104/114  107/116[/COLOR]    -         -

- The missing data is cuz I'm lazy :embarrass
- HS didn't effect any of the vertical kills, as expected
- Judging from the data, it's about 1% harder to kill for every .05 of fall speed

 

[Team Giza]

By the way Storm WDing is good you're just doing it wrong.

Reading comprehension is not your strong suit is it?

the nullification of dashing/walking for most chars.

As you can see zxeon, Storm clearly says WDing is useful. So useful in fact that it takes away completely gets rid of any reason to walk or run as many characters.

MAD opens the door to a lot of universal techniques. Very, very useful techniques. Dare I say game controlling, and diversity destroying techniques. As of now MAD makes a lot of useful options available that help to homogenize characters approaches, movement and defenses, while at the same time making other options in the game that caused a lot of character diversity useless. This is only in the current form of it and could probably be fixed with a new version if it is were important enough to make.

With the amount of lines that are available I would say that MAD doesn't seem worth it. But we can figure out whether or not we should make the code after we combine some codes to free up some lines, see whether or not the dash crouch cancel could be shorten and after we know how many lines shieldstun and dash dancing take up. If there are obviously not enough lines to fit a MAD code in there then I don't think we should even have the hacker's attempt a new version for us.

 

[shanus]

what does lagless edges code do? want to know before i put it into my file

 

[lamelikemike]

After playing with ALC, HS11%, and FS1.15 for a while, i have com to the conclusion that ALC is too good, I don't know if this has been talked about much as an option, because i have only realized how much this thread was accomplishing a few days ago but, i feel like it would be better to give an ALC with a much smaller portion of lag taken away, lets say 1/8, on top of this, then have a manual lag cancel that will further decrease the lag to 1/2. This will speed up the game in general with the ALC, and give players who tech an advantage of speed adding another element of skill.

My reasoning- as someone said before me Tlink(whom i love to play) is too versitile with his Dair and it is too easy to just to SHFF moves like C.Falcons knee or Ganons Fair. I feel like it adds to the game to be able to do it, but it should take some skill to accomplish. for instance i would hate to see auto mortar slides, everyone who is even decent with snake uses them, but making it skill-less is clearly a bad idea, this is how i feel about ALC.


As for the MAD/WD discussion, I think we are approaching a time where we need to decide as a community if we think we should be making Melee 2.0 or Brawl plus. (forgive me if i missed this descussion and am making a fool of myself by proposing it)

I love WD in Melee, but is it a necassary skill set in Brawl+ I am leaning towards no, but I am only one man, and i haven't test both with the newer codes.

 

[SuSa]

@lamelikemike

That was me who mentioned it. SHFF moves, and dairs like Zamus's/Tink's are just to versitle with it.

I suggested 1/4, and even then I may change my mind. Guessing on the amount of end lag on most moves, I'm feeling 1/6 may be better. 1/8 may be a little to little to really matter for most moves.

The reason they won't do auto+manual I believe, is because of the amount of code lines, the fact that manual is a bit buggy (or so I think I've heard, lol).

But I agree, it's just giving too much for free. There is no risk, and high reward.

The risk should equal the reward. IMO

:mewtwo:

 

[kupo15]

As you can see, there are two schools of thought on MAD. But as it stands, there is not enough code space for MAD and Giza amde a good point also.

Ah, exactly what I thought it was.

Thanks for the quick answer, time to go put it up to get used to it.

My Brawl has a Melee feel with the thought of "oh yah, I can wavedash!" whenever I get a kill.

I need to get in the habit of wavedashing in Brawl... it just feels so weird (I do it all the time in Melee, and it never carries over to brawl. In my head, I can keep melee, brawl, and brawl + as seperate games. But right now brawl + is new, so I keep playing it like Brawl, but with extra combos.)

I also really, really like 11.75% hitstun.... Captain Falcon for high tier at least...

Dthrow > Pivot Regrab > Dthrow is just to good of a chaingrab.

@lamelikemike

The risk should equal the reward. IMO

:mewtwo:

(Bolded) In wavedashings current state, the bolded is not true. WDing is easy, provides a LOT of options, while providing little to no risk of punishment if you know what your doing... Going away from the WDing side of MAD, MAD also affects the air game because instead of being able to Air dodge through ppl, you have one chance in which the movement is not as far, nor do you have as much invincibility as BAD. The SBR podcast does a good job of summing MAD up.

Since MAD is in such a sloppy state atm, I don't know why one would even practice on it..

I haven't found it to be to buggy for me.

Every once in a while I do wavedash for spacing and etc. But it's not on the top of my mind.

I guess 6-7 months of playing a game without it really drills it into your head thats its gone, then you airdodge and go "OH YAH!" then wavedash a few times, then forget again.

And wavetaunting is to good, I don't know what you're talking about. xD

:mewtwo:

Just so you know, your not using WDing to its fullest extent. Your thinking WDing acts like it did in melee instead of using it how its acts in brawl. So not to mention that WDing isn't being used as effective as it should be, your messing up the air game as well. This is the first step to use WDing in its current form correctly in brawl

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zk0iTsr50vw

 

[MBlaze]

By the way Kupo, did you ever get around finishing that Melee Air dodge/Wavedash vid? I haven't been so active here.

 

[kupo15]

By the way Kupo, did you ever get around finishing that Melee Air dodge/Wavedash vid? I haven't been so active here.

I have it, but there is no point in doing anymore to it since everyone agrees that the current MAD is flawed and needs to be tweaked which was the whole point of my video anyway. So it would be pointless now.

 

[shanus]

After playing with ALC, HS11%, and FS1.15 for a while, i have com to the conclusion that ALC is too good, I don't know if this has been talked about much as an option, because i have only realized how much this thread was accomplishing a few days ago but, i feel like it would be better to give an ALC with a much smaller portion of lag taken away, lets say 1/8, on top of this, then have a manual lag cancel that will further decrease the lag to 1/2. This will speed up the game in general with the ALC, and give players who tech an advantage of speed adding another element of skill.

My reasoning- as someone said before me Tlink(whom i love to play) is too versitile with his Dair and it is too easy to just to SHFF moves like C.Falcons knee or Ganons Fair. I feel like it adds to the game to be able to do it, but it should take some skill to accomplish. for instance i would hate to see auto mortar slides, everyone who is even decent with snake uses them, but making it skill-less is clearly a bad idea, this is how i feel about ALC.

Im not a huge fan of auto l cancel. It just makes it even for everyone in terms of tech skill and sure it speeds up the game a bit, but I think its stupid to have every aerial L-cancelled for you. I think manual L cancel should be worked on as a priority to try and enhance brawl and bring it to a more technical level. A compromise of both could be interesting as well.

 

[MBlaze]

I have it, but there is no point in doing anymore to it since everyone agrees that the current MAD is flawed and needs to be tweaked which was the whole point of my video anyway. So it would be pointless now.

Still would be cool to watch, don't let your hard work go to waste.

 

[MookieRah]

@LameLikeMike and Havokk

There is absolutely no reason whatsoever to nerf Auto L-canceling. No amount of fall speed adjustment increases the shield stun in this game. Whatever problems you are having you can easily learn to counter it. The very fact that I have been playing with S-canceling this whole time and am able to counter shffls all the time is testament to that. There is nothing wrong with Auto-L-canceling, and honestly it isn't good enough overall till we get a shield stun code.

 

[shanus]

@LameLikeMike and Havokk

There is absolutely no reason whatsoever to nerf Auto L-canceling. No amount of fall speed adjustment increases the shield stun in this game. Whatever problems you are having you can easily learn to counter it. The very fact that I have been playing with S-canceling this whole time and am able to counter shffls all the time is testament to that. There is nothing wrong with Auto-L-canceling, and honestly it isn't good enough overall till we get a shield stun code.

Its not a matter of having difficulty with auto–L, it just oversimplifies anything whatsoever. I feel that a player who is technically sound should have an edge on someone who is not if they are both equally skilled in terms of tactics/etc. Even if they widened the gap for L–cancelling to make it easier for more players, I still think it should be required the player be cognizant of it rather than it just do it for them. I was a tech-heavy player in melee and have no issues with manual L in brawl, but I just feel that auto–L should not be the *standard*

 

[kupo15]

Its not a matter of having difficulty with auto–L, it just oversimplifies anything whatsoever. I feel that a player who is technically sound should have an edge on someone who is not if they are both equally skilled in terms of tactics/etc. Even if they widened the gap for L–cancelling to make it easier for more players, I still think it should be required the player be cognizant of it rather than it just do it for them. I was a tech-***** in melee and have no issues with manual L in brawl, but I just feel that auto–L should not be the *standard*

Your wrong. L canceling is not a tech or skill...it is a reflex. The technique was SHFFLing and the skill was comboing.

 

[shanus]

Your wrong. L canceling is not a tech or skill...it is a reflex. The technique was SHFFLing and the skill was comboing.

SHFFLing is by no means challenging. This is just trivializing it further. I'm all for L-cancelling, I just don't think the game should do it for the player. Any good player will do it, but if the player messes up, they should be punished for it. I want combos back in brawl, but I also want something where I can become better beyond the current threshold established by brawls engine.

 

[MookieRah]

I want combos back in brawl, but I also want something where I can become better beyond the current threshold established by brawls engine.

But would your gameplay actually be "better"? How does tossing in Manual L-canceling make you a better player? Yeah, you'd have to think about L-canceling in matches, but what about that mechanic screams that it really adds a lot of skill? Would it be your ability to punish missed L-cancels? Well if you are just a good player you tend to punish everything, there isn't really a learned "take advantage of missed L-cancel" skill, it's just punishing, which already exists.

I'm going to go with the Sirlin approach on this. While there is a point to be made about tech skill, I honestly think that overall it's just an arbitrary tech barrier.

 

[kupo15]

skip this...

 

[SketchHurricane]

After playing with ALC, HS11%, and FS1.15 for a while, i have com to the conclusion that ALC is too good, I don't know if this has been talked about much as an option, because i have only realized how much this thread was accomplishing a few days ago but, i feel like it would be better to give an ALC with a much smaller portion of lag taken away, lets say 1/8, on top of this, then have a manual lag cancel that will further decrease the lag to 1/2. This will speed up the game in general with the ALC, and give players who tech an advantage of speed adding another element of skill.

My reasoning- as someone said before me Tlink(whom i love to play) is too versitile with his Dair and it is too easy to just to SHFF moves like C.Falcons knee or Ganons Fair. I feel like it adds to the game to be able to do it, but it should take some skill to accomplish. for instance i would hate to see auto mortar slides, everyone who is even decent with snake uses them, but making it skill-less is clearly a bad idea, this is how i feel about ALC.

There is no point in a hybrid L-cancel. No one is going to NOT manual L-cancel if it takes more lag off.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=206560

As for reducing the lag, I haven't seen any instances where 1/2 created anything OP'd. No matter how much the lag is tweaked, anything can be shield grabbed with the current shield, L-cancel or not. The only thing that could approach OP'd is reduced chance of punishment on a miss, so if you want misses more punishable that's the only reason I'd see for tweaking the lag cancel.

 

[zxeon]

Reading comprehension is not your strong suit is it?

As you can see zxeon, Storm clearly says WDing is useful. So useful in fact that it takes away completely gets rid of any reason to walk or run as many characters.

MAD opens the door to a lot of universal techniques. Very, very useful techniques. Dare I say game controlling, and diversity destroying techniques. As of now MAD makes a lot of useful options available that help to homogenize characters approaches, movement and defenses, while at the same time making other options in the game that caused a lot of character diversity useless. This is only in the current form of it and could probably be fixed with a new version if it is were important enough to make.

With the amount of lines that are available I would say that MAD doesn't seem worth it. But we can figure out whether or not we should make the code after we combine some codes to free up some lines, see whether or not the dash crouch cancel could be shorten and after we know how many lines shieldstun and dash dancing take up. If there are obviously not enough lines to fit a MAD code in there then I don't think we should even have the hacker's attempt a new version for us.

Heh that's why I stopped using MAD. It was more of a oh hey yeah let's do some wavetaunting after the kill than anything else for me.
Plus too much coding space used + problems with the code overall= bad.

I was talking about this ^^ post not the one I quoted.

The Dash canceling code seems like a better choice than the CC just because it's shorter or is there some difference I'm missing here.

 

[shanus]

But would your gameplay actually be "better"? How does tossing in Manual L-canceling make you a better player? Yeah, you'd have to think about L-canceling in matches, but what about that mechanic screams that it really adds a lot of skill? Would it be your ability to punish missed L-cancels? Well if you are just a good player you tend to punish everything, there isn't really a learned "take advantage of missed L-cancel" skill, it's just punishing, which already exists.

I'm going to go with the Sirlin approach on this. While there is a point to be made about tech skill, I honestly think that overall it's just an arbitrary tech barrier.

Your right it doesn't scream more skill, I just feel it adds a slight competitive edge to the game. And the point about missed L-cancels and punishing was just to tryand show a disparity between player skill. Maybe I just like to keep my fingers busy and miss the days of multishines. I see your point, I guess its just down to personal preference in the long run.

 

[leafgreen386]

Your right it doesn't scream more skill, I just feel it adds a slight competitive edge to the game. And the point about missed L-cancels and punishing was just to tryand show a disparity between player skill. Maybe I just like to keep my fingers busy and miss the days of multishines. I see your point, I guess its just down to personal preference in the long run.

If you really need to press a button every time you land, there's no one stopping you. I frequently "L-cancel" my aerials when I land in brawl, simply because it's a reflex. And that's all that's all L-canceling really is - a reflex. There's nothing wrong with that, but it doesn't actually help the game by its inclusion. Ultimately, whether you have to press a button for it or not, the game will turn out the same way.

 

[Vulcan55]

I was using the Stage speed modifier, and I put 0's for all the X's, but it didn't stop the stages, they just moved reaaaaaly slow. Like Halberd took forever, but eventually took off.
Is that normal, or am I using the wrong Value?

 

[zxeon]

I was using the Stage speed modifier, and I put 0's for all the X's, but it didn't stop the stages, they just moved reaaaaaly slow. Like Halberd took forever, but eventually took off.
Is that normal, or am I using the wrong Value?

Wrong value.

 

[Finns7]

I see what you are talking about shanus and I agree, I have the ALC on mainly because everyone else had it on lol, but it is true L canceling is more of a reflex imo once you practice it enough, and pro players most likely will L cancel always.

I dont want to start a WD argument but all the chars wd is not that good, still though too many can stack. I still think WD of some type should not be thrown out it does bring in new options/techs. DD wont solve everything. MAD can help you escape combos if you airdodge and fast fall right, I sound like a broken record kinda I know Ill prob ger verbally molested, but I dont think you guys liked it anyway while some of did, does it make it right who knows.

I wasnt for going to up in hitstun to early but the vast majority did and the same story is starting to happen in the fallspeed category. Will we agree? Are we biased? Are we trying to make the game easy for our mains? Since we are promoting this to the Melee and Brawl tourney players how do they feel and what do they think should be added or scrapped? Have they put any input in this? Will this project be divided not having something agreed upon?.

First thing I think we should of taken out brawl glitches and gay **** like Grab releases, and CG's and the triple jump. Hitstun helped this, and there is a grab release code I believe unless it didnt work. Triple jump should be our next objective because this is fact and not opinion like the fallspeed, hitsun value ect.

 

[SketchHurricane]

I was using the Stage speed modifier, and I put 0's for all the X's, but it didn't stop the stages, they just moved reaaaaaly slow. Like Halberd took forever, but eventually took off.
Is that normal, or am I using the wrong Value?

This should work

4A000000 90000000
1416A904 00000000 <- modifier at 0
E0000000 80008000

I actually tried it in conjunction with the global at 1, to be exact:

4A000000 90180F08
14000068 3F800000 <- global at 1.0
E0000000 80008000
4A000000 90000000
1416A904 00000000 <- level at 0
E0000000 80008000

 

[kupo15]

I see what you are talking about shanus and I agree, I have the ALC on mainly because everyone else had it on lol, but it is true L canceling is more of a reflex imo once you practice it enough, and pro players most likely will L cancel always.

I dont want to start a WD argument but all the chars wd is not that good, still though too many can stack. I still think WD of some type should not be thrown out it does bring in new options/techs. DD wont solve everything. MAD can help you escape combos if you airdodge and fast fall right, I sound like a broken record kinda I know Ill prob ger verbally molested, but I dont think you guys liked it anyway while some of did, does it make it right who knows.

I wasnt for going to up in hitstun to early but the vast majority did and the same story is starting to happen in the fallspeed category. Will we agree? Are we biased? Are we trying to make the game easy for our mains? Since we are promoting this to the Melee and Brawl tourney players how do they feel and what do they think should be added or scrapped? Have they put any input in this? Will this project be divided not having something agreed upon?.

First thing I think we should of taken out brawl glitches and gay **** like Grab releases, and CG's and the triple jump. Hitstun helped this, and there is a grab release code I believe unless it didnt work. Triple jump should be our next objective because this is fact and not opinion like the fallspeed, hitsun value ect.

^^Have you listened to the podcast on MAD?

 

[Finns7]

No, but you guys basically just went over what they said as I remember.I know you know it has uses, I was really trying to show an example of how divided we are in some aspects and how we need to get the serious codes out. And I dont believe they got as in depth with brawls mad as I have if what you guys said is true, mad helps with the triple jump in some instances but did you know that?

 

[Vulcan55]

I tried doing lagless ledges and no-auto sweetspot again, but it still froze. I did some tests, and it happens whenever the highest priority slot grabs the ledge. (Player 1, if playing. if not, then player 2, etc.)

 

[leafgreen386]

I tried doing lagless ledges and no-auto sweetspot again, but it still froze. I did some tests, and it happens whenever the highest priority slot grabs the ledge. (Player 1, if playing. if not, then player 2, etc.)

Why aren't the rest of us having this problem...? Is it only happening with certain characters for you? Or everyone? And what other codes do you have on?

 

[Vulcan55]

All those are on.

I've had it happen every time I tried it with Ganon, Falcon, and Olimar. It's a hassle reseting everything every time, so it takes a while.

Wrong value.

um...thanks? wow.

EDIT: I think it's an error with the lagless ledges code, because the code doesn't seem to be working.

 

[TonyTH07]

Is Sonic's triple jump glitch referring to the gravity code drastically shorting it?

 

[storm92]

Is Sonic's triple jump glitch referring to the gravity code drastically shorting it?

No, it's this weird glitch that adds lag after CF/Ganon/etc. do an upB sweetspotted.
kupo, where's your vid?