COMPETITIVE Brawl+: Code Agenda

[Archangel]

I still don't agree with having tech skills in the game that cannot be done consistently. At this point, I don't think it would be worth the lines of code to reduce the PS window, and I don't think its something that people universally want and will adopt either.

Personally I've had it with The bs Ps. All it does is make matches boring because someone wants to stand and Shield like Gaara of the freaking desert. It just takes away from skillful playing IMO.

 

[Almas]

I believe a better approach would be to make powershielding a conscious choice by weakening it in some way, rather than nerfing it such that it becomes ridiculously hard to use. For example - maybe making a successful powershield consume a portion of your shield, as a tradeoff to the reward of a free shieldgrab.

EDIT: That said, I personally like the powershielding mechanic. Maybe doing the suggested change for melee attacks, but a powershield approach against ranged SHOULD be easy to do.

 

[BrutalBrutal]

Personally I've had it with The bs Ps. All it does is make matches boring because someone wants to stand and Shield like Gaara of the freaking desert. It just takes away from skillful playing IMO.

LOL, I notice that your name is Spam_arrows. I think I understand why you don't like powershielding in that regard. In my opinion, extended projectile spamming, ideally, should not be a viable tactic, except as a "brick wall" tactic. Projectiles should be used to pressure your opponent, deal damage from afar while they recover (even used to edgeguard), in combos, to keep your opponent busy dealing with the projectiles as you jump in and several other uses like that. It is no fun to play a game in which sitting in one spot and spamming projectiles is the best strategy, so that is a scenario which we want to avoid.

 

[kupo15]

I believe a better approach would be to make powershielding a conscious choice by weakening it in some way, rather than nerfing it such that it becomes ridiculously hard to use. For example - maybe making a successful powershield consume a portion of your shield, as a tradeoff to the reward of a free shieldgrab.

EDIT: That said, I personally like the powershielding mechanic. Maybe doing the suggested change for melee attacks, but a powershield approach against ranged SHOULD be easy to do.

Yea, I don't mind the projectiles being easy to PS (that's how melee worked) but the melee attacks annoy the crap out of me.

LOL, I notice that your name is Spam_arrows. I think I understand why you don't like powershielding in that regard. In my opinion, extended projectile spamming, ideally, should not be a viable tactic, except as a "brick wall" tactic. Projectiles should be used to pressure your opponent, deal damage from afar while they recover (even used to edgeguard), in combos, to keep your opponent busy dealing with the projectiles as you jump in and several other uses like that. It is no fun to play a game in which sitting in one spot and spamming projectiles is the best strategy, so that is a scenario which we want to avoid.

We need PSing because it is what allows characters to deal with projectile spam but right now, PS is too easy to do.

 

[SketchHurricane]

If we simply decrease the window for PS'ing melee attacks only, and leave projectile PS alone, we would preserve spam defense while weakening the easy shield grabs. If we then increase shield stun a bit, that might balance the shield game out nicely.

We should probably find some sort of "marker" to determine how much shield stun we want. Like, take a move/tactic that should not be punishable but currently is, and increase shield stun just to the point where it is no longer punishable.

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

judging by the ridiculously long ledge lag code, i think the powershield nerf will be another 40 lines :/

 

[kupo15]

If we simply decrease the window for PS'ing melee attacks only, and leave projectile PS alone, we would preserve spam defense while weakening the easy shield grabs. If we then increase shield stun a bit, that might balance the shield game out nicely.

We should probably find some sort of "marker" to determine how much shield stun we want. Like, take a move/tactic that should not be punishable but currently is, and increase shield stun just to the point where it is no longer punishable.

Both good points. I was planning on doing that myself actually Like for one, all multihit moves should not be punished during the move. That should be the only thing not punishable and should balance everything else out

judging by the ridiculously long ledge lag code, i think the powershield nerf will be another 40 lines :/

If you know how he coded it this is not true. He had the option to just speed up the animation but he felt it was "sloppy" and decided to take a harder route. I requested this "sloppy" code which will have less lines.

Reducing PS will be the same thing...speed up the animation which should result in less lines maybe around 10

 

[Osi]

I actually like the way PS works in brawl. I view it a lot like the counter system in SF3. It allows for faster defense to counter attacks with the right timing, but it's more reasonable to use than melee's was. The melee PS was so hard to pull off.

I am hopeful we can find a short shield stun code though. I'd like to try and fit that in my code set if possible.

I'm really interested in trying out any DD fix codes we will get. I tried playing brawl+ this weekend without MAD on. It was interesting. The ledge codes and faster fall rate made it feel a little better. I still felt like the ground game was horrid though. The DD in brawl just is so limited IMO, so maybe a better DD can help make it so MAD isn't needed in my set. I realize it's still being debated and all that, and I'm not going to start listing pros/cons at all. The point of this post was that brawl+ even with BAD is getting better, and a good DD code could take up less space and allow nice ground game movement(this has yet to be seen though). Is the dash cancel not able to be used during the opening animation?

 

[zxeon]

We can only hope for the day when MAD isn't needed. The game has lost a great asset to it's approach game.

 

[Finns7]

How long will the finished DD code be? Any guess

 

[Alopex]

No one here wants to make Powershielding like it was in Melee.

The very first post of the Code Agenda thread already states that.

It also states that, yes, we do want PSing to be easier for projectiles in comparison to melee attacks.


We just want Powershielding to actually have a risk. As of now, there is none. Most of the time in Brawl, if you try to Powershield, you WILL Powershield. It's just that easy.

There needs to be risk involved. You choose to Powershield at the risk that you might mess up your timing and get hit instead.
You have a reason to choose the regular shield over the Powershield if we nerf the Powershield. Once we get ShieldStun, there will be no reason to shield over Powershield otherwise.


Melee's timing was impossible, yes. We don't want that. We just want Brawl's timing made a little bit harder, allowing consistent Powershielding to be considered an actual skill, not just a common fluke.

As long as easy Powershielding stays in, the game will always be extremely defensive. Its ease and power can overcome most approaches, and that's a large part of what makes Brawl so campy.

 

[Problem2]

I agree with Apolex. Powershielding is the worse culprit compared to normal Shielding. And in response to anyone who says that you don't see top level players powershielding, if you watch how they play, they usually play with powershielding in mind. Do you see many players trying short hop approaches without doing uber spacing and range or plenty of empty short hops?

 

[Archangel]

LOL, I notice that your name is Spam_arrows. I think I understand why you don't like powershielding in that regard. In my opinion, extended projectile spamming, ideally, should not be a viable tactic, except as a "brick wall" tactic. Projectiles should be used to pressure your opponent, deal damage from afar while they recover (even used to edgeguard), in combos, to keep your opponent busy dealing with the projectiles as you jump in and several other uses like that. It is no fun to play a game in which sitting in one spot and spamming projectiles is the best strategy, so that is a scenario which we want to avoid.

Nothing Personal but maining Capt.Falcon in Brawl means you deserve to be shot lol. Seriously though I can see how you'd considering your main but Psing is way to simple. I picked Spam Arrows because I thought it was a funny name. I only spam as an absolute last resort or when I am tired of attacking someone that is content blocking and Trying to counter grab the whole game.

 

[Team Giza]

._. Perfect shielding as it currently is needs more of a risk. There is a problem with comparing it to the parry system in Street Fighter 3. In SF3, you press forward to parry and thus leave yourself completely open if you do not time it right. If you miss the parry you will get hit. But in brawl if you miss the perfect shield you usually just shield it. With stricter timing though, it would make it so that you have to try harder to get the timing and if you are not good at it you will probably press shield too late and get hit.

However we do not need to worry about this too much because brawl has more spacing potential than SF3 has (do not kill me for saying this SF3 players, I do not mean it as a negative thing towards the game) so we never really have to worry about the function being too overpowered after the change. The slower nature of brawl will make it easier to get the timing down even if its about as strict as melee, since the attacks aren't going to be flying at you as fast they will be slightly more predictable.

 

[zxeon]

Need true short hops FTW.

 

[Archangel]

._. Perfect shielding as it currently is needs more of a risk. There is a problem with comparing it to the parry system in Street Fighter 3. In SF3, you press forward to parry and thus leave yourself completely open if you do not time it right. If you miss the parry you will get hit. But in brawl if you miss the perfect shield you usually just shield it. With stricter timing though, it would make it so that you have to try harder to get the timing and if you are not good at it you will probably press shield too late and get hit.

However we do not need to worry about this too much because brawl has more spacing potential than SF3 has (do not kill me for saying this SF3 players, I do not mean it as a negative thing towards the game) so we never really have to worry about the function being too overpowered after the change. The slower nature of brawl will make it easier to get the timing down even if its about as strict as melee, since the attacks aren't going to be flying at you as fast they will be slightly more predictable.

Agreed Not to mention its much more difficult to mix up your attack if you plan to spam. Just compare falco's spam in both games. Even in melee it became easier to time.

 

[BrutalBrutal]

Nothing Personal but maining Capt.Falcon in Brawl means you deserve to be shot lol. Seriously though I can see how you'd considering your main but Psing is way to simple. I picked Spam Arrows because I thought it was a funny name. I only spam as an absolute last resort or when I am tired of attacking someone that is content blocking and Trying to counter grab the whole game.

First off, you should probably avoid talking sh** about C. Falcon, especially here of all places. Second, I do not main Falcon in Brawl. I do not play Brawl, except to test Brawl+. I main Captain Falcon in Melee, and the crushing disappointment I felt when moving from the equivalent of a responsive, sleek and fast machine, a Ferrari (Melee Falcon) to a rundown, beat up Ford Model T (any Brawl character) is what convinced me that unless some miraculous change was made to Brawl, I would never play it. That miraculous change has come to be: Brawl+, here to rescue us from the slow-mo campfest of Vanilla Brawl.

I think Powershielding should be viable for blocking projectiles and not much else, which is already the case. I don't think it's necessary to nerf powershielding: it is backward to nerf defensive tactics by giving projectile spammers an easier time.

 

[krlos F.]

guys, don't u think u're forgetting a very important code? the code for a better teching window... lol because with hitstun and gravity modifier is very hard to tech ... =S

 

[BrutalBrutal]

And since when is technical skill a minus? That mechanic is not broken, so it needs no fixing. Pro players will just have to learn to tech. Let us conserve our codespace for another code, which needs to be top priority but which no one recognises as important: we need higher horizontal air speeds (first), and momentum from our dashes (second).

 

[krlos F.]

And since when is technical skill a minus? That mechanic is not broken, so it needs no fixing. Pro players will just have to learn to tech. Let us conserve our codespace for another code, which needs to be top priority but which no one recognises as important: we need higher horizontal air speeds (first), and momentum from our dashes (second).

I know is very very important higher horizontal air speeds and the momentum codes, but I'm still thinkig we have to fix a little that tech window... imo

 

[Almas]

I can tech fine. Yeah, it might be slightly harder than in melee. But considering everything else that you DON'T have to do any more, it's not worth getting a code to improve the window.

 

[MuBa]

Can you tech anything at anytime when you fall?

I thought you could tech only tumbling animation right as you hit the ground.

 

[SketchHurricane]

Can you tech anything at anytime when you fall?

I thought you could tech only tumbling animation right as you hit the ground.

I'm pretty sure you can tech everything, but not positive. I've teched a ridiculously low attack before by accident...

And I agree that the window is fine. The more I play Brawl+, the better my teching has become. The timing needed for most combo-able hits is not impossible by any means.

 

[Alopex]

I think Powershielding should be viable for blocking projectiles and not much else, which is already the case. I don't think it's necessary to nerf powershielding: it is backward to nerf defensive tactics by giving projectile spammers an easier time.

Maybe you missed the part where we've said, repeatedly, that we want to have two different window values for the Perfect Shield? One for melee attacks and one for projectiles?

Yes, we want Perfect Shielding projectiles to remain easy.
No, we don't want it to be so easy for melee attacks.

SSBM had two different values. One for melee PS, and one for projectile PS. Our hope is that we'll be able to create the same distinction between them and modify mostly the melee PS value.

 

[Osi]

I would not want to use the space for PS unless it's super short to be honest(the PS you described does sound nice though if there is space). Even without MAD the code list is getting pretty long. I still would like a dash dance, momentum, and shield stun code before we make the standard code set (this is of course replacing MAD in mine, these contribute so much more than wavedashing together). Once DD replaces MAD in my set I'll have to put the dash cancel code back on too.

 

[kupo15]

Maybe you missed the part where we've said, repeatedly, that we want to have two different window values for the Perfect Shield? One for melee attacks and one for projectiles?

Yes, we want Perfect Shielding projectiles to remain easy.
No, we don't want it to be so easy for melee attacks.

SSBM had two different values. One for melee PS, and one for projectile PS. Our hope is that we'll be able to create the same distinction between them and modify mostly the melee PS value.

If they are not separate, I still vote for a harder PS that is a compromise between the two.

I would not want to use the space for PS unless it's super short to be honest(the PS you described does sound nice though if there is space). Even without MAD the code list is getting pretty long. I still would like a dash dance, momentum, and shield stun code before we make the standard code set (this is of course replacing MAD in mine, these contribute so much more than wavedashing together). Once DD replaces MAD in my set I'll have to put the dash cancel code back on too.

If the PS window stays the same with shield stun, then shield stun is near worthless. We need a harder timing so that you have to think more and that shield stun is more effective..

 

[SGX]

I still don't think teching works entirely properly. I don't think that you can tech everything either, but I may be wrong about that.

 

[kupo15]

I still don't think teching works entirely properly. I don't think that you can tech everything either, but I may be wrong about that.

I somewhat agree with this. I know its possible to tech everything, but with all the insta-knockdown moves and such, I think teching as it stands is an arbitrary tech skill in the context of brawl+. It's just too hard to a point where it is impractical and it is not going to detract from the game to make it just a little easier...

 

[SGX]

If anything it's just frustrating.

Not to mention, in vanilla brawl, there's almost no need for teching 99% of the time.

Now that we've changed hitstun, gravity, etc. I feel like we need to adjust the tech window as well to suit the new mods.

 

[Osi]

I somewhat agree with this. I know its possible to tech everything, but with all the insta-knockdown moves and such, I think teching as it stands is an arbitrary tech skill in the context of brawl+. It's just too hard to a point where it is impractical and it is not going to detract from the game to make it just a little easier...

I'm actually liking the brawl tech timing atm, but I would like a faster tech roll. IMO it's too easy to punish tech rolls right now. A lot of characters in brawl bounce people in their combos, and with slower paced fighting like brawl I'd be worried a easy tech would make escapes from combos too easy. Everyone I play here has picked up brawl teching fast due to my fox combos lol. It's tech right or hit 80% and a possible KO vs fox hahaha.

 

[kupo15]

I'm actually liking the brawl tech timing atm, but I would like a faster tech roll. IMO it's too easy to punish tech rolls right now. A lot of characters in brawl bounce people in their combos, and with slower paced fighting like brawl I'd be worried a easy tech would make escapes from combos too easy. Everyone I play here has picked up brawl teching fast due to my fox combos lol. It's tech right or hit 80% and a possible KO vs fox hahaha.

You contradicted yourself there.

Combos should not be based on bouncing your opponent simply because the tech window is too hard. Bouncing them should be a result of mindgaming moves they think your going to do resulting in an early tech. When you make the window easier to do by pressing it earlier, not only does this make teching more smooth and practical, but it can offer an easier time to mindgame for a missed tech.

Besides, what takes more skill...punishing a tech roll or bouncing them across the screen because the window is simply too difficult?

 

[oliwonder]

Osi what is your current code set with Brawl+? I've been laggin with these new codes coming in but I think we have the same taste with what codes we use(yes I currently use MAD too, and will until a legit DD and other codes comes out).

And for the ppl that prefer BAD, what is your current code set your testing? I'd like to try 'em out also.

 

[kupo15]

For BAD

-no tripping
-auto l canceling
-hit stun 11.75%
-Lagless ledges
-no auto sweetspot ledges
-up/down gravity mod 1.1
-Decay 3/4th power

(decay code for convenience)
06FC0988 00000028
3D4CCCCD 3D8CCCCD
3D6E147B 3D63D70A
3D428F5C 3D35C28F
3CF851EB 3CE3D70A
3C8CCCCC 3C63D70A

 

[Finns7]

The only tech code we need is a stage tech. Im starting to not think the ledge codes will work in brawl. They kinda buff Meta. He can still reach the ledge from gay positions. And if you miss time your recovery he can kill/gimp (downsmash/dair) you easier because there will be no instant snap. Try to time it perfect?, he will just speed hug....JV 4 stock gg's drive home safely


We need codes to counter the codes we put out. I think we are still in need of a code for shieks ftilt aswell as any other soft hitting moves that need to be DIed, the decay code still doesnt solve this imo fully. Have we fully taken care of grab releases? These should be top priority more than talking about gravity and air momentum which would be nice but are not that important, at least for brawl, brawl's floatiness does not BREAK the game as much as these gay *** AT (Glitches) or its arieal speed.

 

[kupo15]

so are you saying that we should scrape the ledge codes because of one character, mk?

 

[Osi]

Osi what is your current code set with Brawl+? I've been laggin with these new codes coming in but I think we have the same taste with what codes we use(yes I currently use MAD too, and will until a legit DD and other codes comes out).

And for the ppl that prefer BAD, what is your current code set your testing? I'd like to try 'em out also.

MAD
ALC
Ledge cancel code
No auto sweetspot
No tripping
No replay cap
Fall speed 1.25
Hitstun 10%

I think that's all I have on right now

 

[oliwonder]

Thanks guys and at this point i'd like to give praise to all the work done so far. I can now say that I can actually transition from playing brawl+ to melee much easier without sucking compared to going from vanilla brawl to melee(that was horrible).

 

[Finns7]

We need like a counter code or something, because after playing on it, it just doesnt seem to fit brawl's style, i would see if we had the power to rework the chars and other stuff but we really cant with the code space. As we add codes there seems to always be problems that need fixing.

It makes the game go faster with gimps/edge kills, but the wrong chars benefit from this. I dont think this will balance the game. Its still too early with all the the codes though so I guess we will see.

 

[SketchHurricane]

We need like a counter code or something, because after playing on it, it just doesnt seem to fit brawl's style, i would see if we had the power to rework the chars and other stuff but we really cant with the code space. As we add codes there seems to always be problems that need fixing.

I'm going to assume you're talking about No ASL, the counter of which being ledge teching? That whole paragraph you posted earlier about MK applies to many other characters, not just MK. Anything that gives the whole cast more options will obviously give MK more options. This is why there is no point in trying to avoid "MK buffs."

It makes the game go faster with gimps/edge kills, but the wrong chars benefit from this. I dont think this will balance the game. Its still too early with all the the codes though so I guess we will see.

This has some merit. Most of the top tier have recoveries that don't need ASL.

Meta Knight
Snake
King Dedede
Mr. Game & Watch
Falco
R.O.B.

Falco and G&W are the only ones on that list that would have to sweetspot their recovery. And IMO, they are the bottom of the top, so basically 'No ASL' separates the top 4 even more.

 

[Almas]

You know I never thought of it like that, but it's certainly a very good point. As much as ASL does increase the strategic level behind play, it buffs the wrong characters to further increase imbalances, which could end up having a larger negative effect.


That said, those characters are affected by the other codes too, so it kinda depends how much weaker it makes them.

I'm more concerned by ASL not affecting Toon Link, who I personally find to be ridiculously powerful already in Brawl+.