COMPETITIVE Brawl+: Code Agenda

[kupo15]

I haven't tried 1.15 yet but I'll get to it later. I just think that 1.35 feels right the same way you thought 11.75% hitstun felt right. I enjoy the speed it brings and I'm fine with some of the easy KO setups like Falcon dthrow to knee being less effective. I also just really don't like regular Brawl's floatiness and just hypothesizing about 1.15 it would seem to be not as drastic of a change as I'd like to the gravity. But hey, I'll give it a shot.

I see. Jw, what was the setting of the old gravity code before? Was it 1.35? I can't wait to brawl with my friends and test out all the new codes we have!

 

[zxeon]

What's 1.35 like?

 

[Finns7]

Can someone tell me if the ledge codes are online friendly? Do they create desync's?

 

[BrutalBrutal]

What's 1.35 like?

Really good. At 1.35 it's actually appropriate to call fastfallers like the spacies and Falcon "fast" fallers. Also, fastfalling a jump actually lets you get to the ground quickly, as opposed to falling slightly less slowly as was the case before. It feels much smoother; you'll have difficulty going back to regular Brawl fallspeed after this. I also need to point out that buffed horizontal kills and nerfed vertical KOs is a good thing and adds to the edgegame.

There's also more of a feeling of diversity: Samus and Jigglypuff are still really floaty, as they should be, a massive contrast to fast-falling Falcon, Link and others.

There is also a concern that fastfalling may require you to decrease hitstun. I don't believe this to necessarily be the case. Remember, fastfallers are actually harder to combo in many situations than floaties and semi-floaties. Remember Melee Falcon's uair strings? They worked far worse on fastfallers than on floaty characters. Hitstun probably still needs to be adjusted, but that's something to take into account.

 

[Problem2]

With fast fallers, more hitstun creates more opportunities to tech chase, and Brawl has a smaller tech frame, and slower tech roll. Missing techs lead to locks as well.

 

[leafgreen386]

The gravity we were using before was 1.165x, which I thought was very good then. Although nerfing jumps is no longer an issue, I don't think that should be our license to just go out and crank up the gravity to insane levels. Downward grav has the same effect on knockback as full grav did, and I thought that 1.165x was very appropriate. Characters fell faster but not so much faster that already existing combos stopped working. I think the highest I might be willing to go is 1.2x, but even that felt like a bit much. I think we should be testing in the range of 1.1x to 1.2x, paying the most attention to the gravity's effect on combos. Nothing else is important. Whether fox falls "fast enough" or not isn't important. What's important is that some characters don't wind up with absolutely ******** combos while others lose some of their standbys. It just isn't acceptable. Hitstun may need to be lowered with this to keep it balanced, so focus on linking the moves themselves when testing the gravity and not on whether training mode says you did a zero-death or not (seriously, if you don't think hitstun should be lower with higher grav you're crazy - you can reach the character you're comboing much faster since they're falling back down to you faster).

 

[Problem2]

Thank you leafstorm. It isn't necessarily about trying to replicate Melee. The gravity we are looking for should provide a decent amount of combos without going overboard. Ideally, there should be a few DIable combos and setups for tech chasing, and a few true combos. We don't need easy guaranteed combos that are no better than chain grabs.

EDIT: lolololol leafstorm. I thought that you used the fusion rings. (I meant to say Leafgreen)

 

[Finns7]

Make sure you guys are testing out with other chars instead of falcon, I have heard nothing of wario or bowser

 

[leafgreen386]

@Problem2: leafstorm? lolwut? It's leafgreen. Have I and storm92 become one person and I didn't know about it?

Make sure you guys are testing out with other chars instead of falcon, I have heard nothing of wario or bowser

K. Bowser sucks.

 

[storm92]

@Problem2: leafstorm? lolwut? It's leafgreen. Have I and storm92 become one person and I didn't know about it?


K. Bowser sucks.

He obviously was thinking of teh pogeymanz move.
xD

 

[Shell]

Here's one of my favorite methods for testing codesets: Ganon vs. Toon Link Matches. These characters highlight many of the changes made by the codes.

Gravity
- If it's too high, G and TL's recoveries stop working, as they're mostly based on being floaty.
- With too much gravity/stun, G's fresh b-throw is unsurvivable around 115-120%.
- Too much gravity is also easy to see with TL's upsmash and utilt juggles. If he can get 3 or more inescapable usmashes at any percent, the gravity's probably too high

Hitstun
-TL is a combo monster, as such it's quickly apparent if he can juggle relentlessly and thoughtlessly
-G is not usually a combo monster, and if he becomes one, it's too high.

ALC
This doesn't need to be adjusted, really, but G shows off the perks of l-canceling rather nicely

And like I said, 1.30 gravity feels pretty good to me, maybe 1.25 as a compromise. Combos really feel like you have to be on your toes to link hits together. However, turning down hitstun would likely achieve this same result. Characters that weren't KO'd on hit could usually make it back to the stage with good DI.

 

[SketchHurricane]

And like I said, 1.30 gravity feels pretty good to me, maybe 1.25 as a compromise. Combos really feel like you have to be on your toes to link hits together. However, turning down hitstun would likely achieve this same result. Characters that weren't
KO'd on hit could usually make it back to the stage with good DI.

My current grav of choice is also 1.3, with anywhere from 10 to 11 hitstun


BTW thanks for the advice, Starscream and Leaf.

 

[kupo15]

I need help from everyone. The online l cancel code is manual. We need to make it auto.

 

[MookieRah]

I also need to point out that buffed horizontal kills and nerfed vertical KOs is a good thing and adds to the edgegame.

I need to point out that you are just pulling that out of your ***. There aren't that many good vertical KO moves in the game, there are just a few that are well known and are a bit OP (Snakes utilt mainly) that could be considered a problem. Nerfing vert KOs and buffing horizontal KOs is still a problem.

I think we should be testing in the range of 1.1x to 1.2x, paying the most attention to the gravity's effect on combos. Nothing else is important.

I think Leafgreen has a solid point here. We are trying to make the game better, not make it feel exactly like Melee. Yeah, I'd love for it to feel more like Melee, but not for a tradeoff of more problems.

Blar, I wish I could test this myself, but I won't be able to mess with these codes until Sunday night or Monday afternoon :-(.

 

[kupo15]

I am sorry to say that there is no L Canceling code for online. I misread my pm. Sorry for the hype

 

[Starscream]

I think Leafgreen has a solid point here. We are trying to make the game better, not make it feel exactly like Melee. Yeah, I'd love for it to feel more like Melee, but not for a tradeoff of more problems.

Some of us do feel that a faster fall speed makes the game better though. I can't really describe it logically, it just feels better, faster and more fun. But we can't just shrug off the vertical kill nerfs for the sake of faster fall speed. That's why I use the damage ratio mod and I've yet to find anything broken with it. Granted that I don't really have a slew of human opponents to test with, but that is why we need everyone to test out different values that people recommend. That's also the same reason why I will test 1.15 gravity instead of shrugging it off because I think it sounds too low on paper.

But I still want a vertical knockback modifier to offset the gravity.

A question about speed modifiers though. Would a character only speed modifier increase the speed of which the fall as well? If it does then I wouldn't mind lowering gravity if used in conjunction with a character speed modifier.

 

[kupo15]

Some of us do feel that a faster fall speed makes the game better though. I can't really describe it logically, it just feels better, faster and more fun. But we can't just shrug off the vertical kill nerfs for the sake of faster fall speed. That's why I use the damage ratio mod and I've yet to find anything broken with it. Granted that I don't really have a slew of human opponents to test with, but that is why we need everyone to test out different values that people recommend. That's also the same reason why I will test 1.15 gravity instead of shrugging it off because I think it sounds too low on paper.

But I still want a vertical knockback modifier to offset the gravity.

A question about speed modifiers though. Would a character only speed modifier increase the speed of which the fall as well? If it does then I wouldn't mind lowering gravity if used in conjunction with a character speed modifier.

Im trying out 1.15 and it seems to give that extra speed everyone craves without nerfing the recovery or the vertical kills too much. I need to test it out against humans tomorrow but i can't see it going above 1.15 unless you want melee playstyle in brawl...

And I would just forget about the character mod. Its buggy and Iggly says he can't fix it..

 

[Shadic]

The advantage with slightly increasing gravity is that it nerfs recoveries. And in the case of just about everybody except for Link, that's needed.

Also, it has the double benefit of making combos easier, so that we're able to pull back on hitstun (Although I'm rather fond of comboing at 11.75%) And if I recall correctly, hitstun increasing makes it easier for people to auto-kill people off the sides of the stage.

So put together, it puts a lot more emphasis on the act of trying to recover. And according to Sakurai, you must.

And back to L-Canceling/S-Canceling for a moment, while I'm actually bothering to post:
S-canceling is nice, yes. So is L-Canceling. However, neither of these mechanics are actually designed to be in Brawl, and as for making the game more technically complex, they're a poor excuse for it.

Auto L-Canceling speeds up the game, GREATLY helps heavier characters (Ganondorf) and blends into the game perfectly. Brawl has always been about Mindgames more than technical skill, and how much does pressing L at the right time really deepen gameplay? I'm going to say "Not very."

If we get an increase to shieldstun, as well as perhaps some very basic character balancing codes (Fixing Link's recovery, lowering Metaknight's priority slightly,) I think I'll be happy. Although allowing the player to tether anywhere would be nice..

 

[kupo15]

Trying 1.15, it seems like too much. Im going to try 1.1. Remember, if this grav thing gets out of hand, all zairs and insta knockdown moves will be like impossible to tech.

 

[Shell]

Could you elaborate a bit more on what you didn't like about it, please?

 

[kupo15]

Could you elaborate a bit more on what you didn't like about it, please?

Tbh, I can't put my finger on it atm besides it just feels unnaturally fast. I know this is not a good argument at all but it just doesn't feel right. Ill make an argument when I figure it out and come up with one.

 

[Yeroc]

So wait, what code did PW give you? Did he tighten the timing on the MLC?

I'm playing 1.125 fallspeed right now, and while I was initially opposed to the code, I have to admit I'm liking the way it's going right now, with 11.5 hitstun and this little beauty below.

I reworked the decay code. Kupo, were you looking for even more decay reduction than what Magus gave us? If so, I've made this, it's a 75% reduction on stale move decay:

06FC0988 00000028 
3D4CCCCD 3CCCCCCD
3CB851EC 3CA3D70A
3C8F5C29 3C75C28F
3C4CCCCD 3C23D70A
3BF5C28F 3BA3D70A

I tried the run cancel code, I'll post my thoughts on it in a sec.

 

[Shell]

Kupo, you've advocated speeding the game up using more "natural" codes than a speed modifier for some time now. And once a code actually does it, you don't like it?

 

[kupo15]

So wait, what code did PW give you? Did he tighten the timing on the MLC?

I'm playing 1.125 fallspeed right now, and while I was initially opposed to the code, I have to admit I'm liking the way it's going right now, with 11.5 hitstun and this little beauty below.

I reworked the decay code. Kupo, were you looking for even more decay reduction than what Magus gave us? If so, I've made this, it's a 75% reduction on stale move decay:

06FC0988 00000028 
3D4CCCCD 3CCCCCCD
3CB851EC 3CA3D70A
3C8F5C29 3C75C28F
3C4CCCCD 3C23D70A
3BF5C28F 3BA3D70A

I tried the run cancel code, I'll post my thoughts on it in a sec.

No. Someone just wanted to know where the activator for the l cancel code was for some reason and PW told me under the response to why ALC desyncs online and I thought they were linked. There is no change.

I was looking for a decay code inbetween Magus' 1/2 stale and normal. Is this like 1/4 decay power

Kupo, you've advocated speeding the game up using more "natural" codes than a speed modifier for some time now. And once a code actually does it, you don't like it?

No. Natural speed increases is by fixing the broken game mechanics such as hitstun, shield stun, l canceling..ect.

And btw I didn't say I flat out hated the most "natural" form of gravity code, I didn't like how powerful 1.15 was for some reason I can't point out atm. Its just like the hitstun code, I love it but +17% hit stun over saturates it to a point where the natural mechanic fix feels unnatural. I think a slight increase in gravity could be good and from my preliminary testing, 1.15 seems unnaturally fast. Consider this as a "diary" if you will. I am not saying anything concrete, its just what I am think atm. I will be doing some testing tomorrow and sat with my friends and Ill have a better sense of how I feel then...

 

[Yeroc]

So you thought Magus's was too much? Or not enough?

Edit: This code is so convoluted it's hard to understand which direction people want to go with it. >_<

 

[Shell]

*shrugs*

I'm heading out of town tomorrow for a week and will be smashless and mostly without internet. I'm super excited to see what develops in my absence. Happy testing, everyone.

 

[kupo15]

So you thought Magus's was too much? Or not enough?

Edit: This code is so convoluted it's hard to understand which direction people want to go with it. >_<

Yea, I think gravity and decay code will be really hard to figure out. I thought Magus' was too powerful.

 

[Starscream]

No. Natural speed increases is by fixing the broken game mechanics such as hitstun, shield stun, l canceling..ect.

Fixing those things won't make attacks come out faster, tech rolling faster, air speed faster, fall speed faster, etc. These things are just naturally slower in Brawl. And someone else was working on a different method of character speeding. It was like a separate level and character speed modifier. I don't really know the specifics. It isn't working currently, but the gravity code took a bit of trial and error to get working as well. I just don't understand how increasing the game speed creates such strange glitches like Fox teleporting or not being able to ledge jump when these things work just fine in 1.5x speed in training or in lightning Brawl.

Sketch made a post on the subject which I agree with a lot.

You're right, there is no need for compensation.

As for the people saying speeding up the game is a terrible idea, are you saying the overall speed of the game has no bearing on gameplay? If so, that is simply not true. The speed of the game effects one critical thing: timing. Immediately after the hitstun code came out and I started practicing combos, I noticed that occasionally I would mess up due to premature button presses. Since brawl is so slow overall, it's easy to get ahead of yourself and mistime an input. This is why people feel like the game becomes so much smoother when it is speed up.

So far all the feedback I've seen concerning the old buggy char speed code has been nothing but enjoyment of the increased speed, and enjoyment should definitely be important. Intensity and excitement is a good thing, whether it effects core gameplay or not. Why do you think there is a such thing as speed chess? Chess is by nature a slow methodical game (a lot like Brawl?), yet people felt the need to create something like speed chess...

Take dash dance for another example of a speed critical mechanic. A big complaint for Brawl is that the DD window is too small. It's often compared to Melee's which is more lenient. Think about why that is. Melee is a faster game, so the DD window would have to be more lenient than in a slower game like Brawl. If the window in Melee was similar to Brawl, you would have great difficulty DDing consistently since the game is faster and would require such rapid left/right sticking. In this particular case, a better DD is sort of a side effect of the faster game, but the main point is again that overall speed is an important factor in how the game operates.

Still think a faster game does nothing for actually gameplay? What about reading the opponent's actions? This is obviously harder in a faster setting. Think combos are too easy? Speeding up the game would make reading DI harder.

We say we want a more offensive game? A faster game is naturally more offensive! How is this? Imagine a game even slower than Brawl. In a game like this, you could see a lot of things coming before you are required to commit to a counter attack. Now why would you bother going on the offensive in a game where it's so easy to simply wait and react, knowing that you had more than enough time to do so? The attacker would always be at a disadvantage, and this is the case with to an extent with Brawl. By speeding up the overall gameplay, you create an environment where waiting and reacting can be dangerous given the shorter window to do so.

These are just some points in support of a faster game. I know that I personally had great fun testing the buggy char speed code. I would never recommend it for Brawl+ in it's buggy state, but if a bug-free alternative like the overall speed vs level speed combo actually works, this is something that should definitely be considered. Personally, I can live without a speed increase. I enjoyed Brawl before at a slower pace, we all did. But I'd be surprised if someone actually tries the game sped up and still says they prefer it slow.

I had to bold that last line because that's basically how I feel.

 

[Finns7]

I just dont think people who dont know about brawl+ and are new wont like it mainly because it will feel too too different. Imo I think we should really put attention on gay **** in normal brawl like cg which where removed because of hitstun (now you have to di).

 

[krlos F.]

in my opinion:
I don't think why u bother to make new codes if u going to use the minimun of it, using Gravity Modifier at 1.1 o 1.15% feels like nothing has changed, but using 1.18 to 1.25 feels better, is more fun and is faster, althought it doesn't feel like Melee (and I know that's not the objective) but u can feel a slighly difference, and the Vertical kb is affected yes, but its not too affected than 1.3 or 1.4 even! What I think is chosing a GModifier between 1.18 to 1.25 would be perfect, then u say "combo hability" come on!, u have hitstun modifier, u can change the value if it's required, maybe using G. Modifier at 1.25% and a hitstun between 10 and 11.5% would be awesome.

That's what I think.

 

[MookieRah]

I just dont think people who dont know about brawl+ and are new wont like it mainly because it will feel too too different. Imo I think we should really put attention on gay **** in normal brawl like cg which where removed because of hitstun (now you have to di).

People who like Brawl and are content don't care about Brawl+ because they like normal Brawl. We aren't making this for them, we are making it for all the people who are unsatisfied and want a more competitive, faster, better version of the game that is less defensive.

Really, Brawl fans will take a while to win over, and I'm not concerned with them. Most of the people discussing Brawl+ were people that wanted a game more like Melee, or if not, more competitive and they realize Brawl's short-comings. These are our target audience. So I say if a code comes out that adds depth to the game, we should strive to see it's inclusion. The no auto-sweetspot code is an excellent example of this. Edge guarding brings in a whole new element of gameplay into the game.

 

[Finns7]

This isnt going to work unless we can win over the brawl fans because there are more brawl fans than melee. And also no matter how the codes change the game its still brawl, plus some melee/64 additions but the game is still brawl just upgraded.

 

[MookieRah]

This isnt going to work unless we can win over the brawl fans because there are more brawl fans than melee.

There are more Brawl fans cause it's the newest game.

Also, I'm talking competitive players, as they are the only ones who would go through the effort to mod the game to play competitively. Most of the fans of Brawl don't play the game competitively, as is most every fighting game ever made. Our target audience is people who want Brawl to be altered. It's kinda hard for us to cater to people who find the current Brawl fine because they already like it as is. To make the game around them would be silly.

If we can retake all of the melee players who are tired of Melee and wanted Brawl to be better than it is then we will have a healthy scene. Trust me on this. You guys weren't around during Melee's hayday, and before Brawl there were still more competitive smashers in the States than all of the other fighting game communities combined. That is more than enough.

I'm also going to project that over time Brawl will die out more and more because it is a lot more shallow of a fighter than melee was and Brawl+ will be. I really don't think there is much room left to explore or improve upon with the game at it's current highest level. Eventually more and more competitive Brawl players will realize that and at that time you will see a migration of the player base from Brawl to Brawl+.

And also no matter how the codes change the game its still brawl, plus some melee/64 additions but the game is still brawl just upgraded.

Exactly, which is why I don't support leaving out codes that make the game better even if some current Brawl fans wouldn't like it. No matter what we do the end product of Brawl+ will be Melee/64 flavored Brawl. It will still look and feel similar to Brawl, it will just be more competitively viable.

 

[Shadic]

No matter what we do the end product of Brawl+ will be Melee/64 flavored Brawl. It will still look and feel similar to Brawl, it will just be more competitively viable.

Yes, but what we do shouldn't be done because that's how Melee worked. Example - The Melee Air Dodge.

We want to include things that make the game more competitive, not simply because its how things worked in past versions.

 

[MookieRah]

Yes, but what we do shouldn't be done because that's how Melee worked. Example - The Melee Air Dodge.

I don't support melee air dodge.

We want to include things that make the game more competitive, not simply because its how things worked in past versions.

Exactly. We should use Melee as a reference of a highly competitive game and try to instill the core values that made it good into Brawl. Some things work out fine, others not so much. We have to test things and see how it goes. Adding edge guarding, REAL edge guarding, is a good thing.

Players will have to be smarter with their recovery as the game will no longer hold their hands anymore. You will have to learn the height of their up B's as well as the range at which they can grab the ledge at a distance. People will also find what moves hit under the stage and will have to learn how to use them effectively to edgeguard. From what Magus says we can add wall collision similar to Melee and 64 so that you can wall tech the edge if you were edgeguarded. All of these things add in a lot of skill to the game, and they will cultivate the scene further.

 

[Osi]

I pretty much agree with all that mookie. It's not like people content with their current smash title will be happy to jump over and support a modded version of it which plays so different. It will take a while for these players to switch over.

I think that things like MAD/manual canceling/a harder edge game will add tech elements that people will be drawn too. A few months/years down the road when they are tired of how shallow brawl is they may see this tech heavy competitive replacement and want to give it a shot.

My largest disappointment with brawl was a small learning curve. It really felt like there wasn't much to learn besides a occasional gimmick move like DLX. I did come in half way through melee's life cycle, so there were a ton of techs to learn to use while in a match from the start. I loved staying up late at night playing with friends trying to get down L cancels and wavedashing. The lack of things like this really hurt my outlook on brawl. To me the game felt overly defensive/campy/simple.

Our entire group had been spending time trying our hardest to do combos and make brawl into a offensive game. A new wolf player showed up and did nothing but forward smash/down smash/bair/laser the entire match (I hold nothing against him for playing like that, was him just playing smart with what brawl had to offer). He did fine versus all of us, and I must admit it was the turning point. I began to notice how easy the game was with decent spacing/camping and just relying on your powerful counter attack moves.

I think that once brawl players have played a bit longer on what retail brawl offers they may want more from the game. Brawl+ can give them the extra deep elements that retail brawl lacks IMO. I really would be sad if we left out tech or game changing elements just to cater to these players which will likely not switch over for a similar game. I think they will switch over later because something so different looks interesting.

 

[Finns7]

I agree, but im just saying you dont want to go to hardcore imo idk, How do you know the melee crowd will take brawl+ seriously? or the competitive brawl crowd? A D3 will prob not support something that takes away his main techs, aswell as meta, and falco. These guys wanna win they dont care if its fun or fair, now this isnt right, but there is no denying it.

I hope it gets a good following but from what I hear people are always ravaging it verbally. The people I showed here didnt like it until they sat down and got used to it, but they prob would of not gotten into it if I had on the ledgecodes aswell as the the gravity that require you to relearn you attacks and timing, this isnt a bad thing but people prob dont want to do that only time will tell.

 

[Deleted member]

quick question, when everybody says gravity here, do you mean gravity or downgrav ?

 

[TonyTH07]

I suggested this a while ago, but I wanted to bring it up again.

Can there be a code where we maybe freeze the stage's hazards? It would make so man more stages more fun to play, and when there's Brawl+ tournies, there will be a LOT more variety in stages.

 

[Osi]

People who just want to win with those characters will either learn to win with a new move/technique set, or they will pick a new main. It's a fresh start with so much to learn, so I expect many to switch mains on brawl+ anyways. Every single person I have showed brawl+ to has loved it, but I only started in late Nov when the codes were getting better. Who knows what they would have thought of the early code set. I expect most of the brawl+ hate to die down over the coming months as a standard is set and many of the negatives people complained about are gone with better code versions.

As for the gravity... I tend not to use that word, but instead fall rate. I think everyone is now referring to the downward gravity code instead of the old codes that had so many negative effects.