kupo15
Smash Hero
Shell corrected himself
In response to the combos, comboing feels easy right now for two reasons:
1. The game is floaty (not pressed for time)
2. We know our character from playing them for 9 months
-
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COMPETITIVE Brawl+: Code Agenda
- Thread starter kupo15
- Start date
In response to the combos, comboing feels easy right now for two reasons:
1. The game is floaty (not pressed for time)
2. We know our character from playing them for 9 months
kupo15
Smash Hero
True. it needs to be like melee's
I have a question regarding the up/down gravity code. What is the float number for 1.15%? Is it actually +1.15% to the default meaning that you add 0.0115 to the default float point? If so, then would the new hitstun be whatever gravity number in decimal form subtracted from the hitstun?
I also hear that this does not take into effect until kb wears off..is this correct? if so then wouldn't half of the added gravity float point be subtracted from the hitstun to have the same relationship you had without the grav code?
Shell
Flute-Fox Only
- Joined
- Feb 7, 2007
- Messages
- 2,042
It's not an addition to the gravity, it is the gravity. So you just convert 1.15 to hex, which is 3F933333.
However, I don't think you'll notice too much of a difference below 1.25. I prefer 1.30 (3FA66666), but that's just me. Not sure what you're saying about hitstun.
I don't think that second part's correct. If it didn't take affect until KB had worn off, why does it push fox's usmash kill on fox from 82% to 91% with 1.25 fall speed?
However, I don't think you'll notice too much of a difference below 1.25. I prefer 1.30 (3FA66666), but that's just me. Not sure what you're saying about hitstun.
I don't think that second part's correct. If it didn't take affect until KB had worn off, why does it push fox's usmash kill on fox from 82% to 91% with 1.25 fall speed?
hmm wonder what would happen if I (just me) used both it would really be worth the space for me and i have to get rid of are the pk trainer codes... you think i could use both without problems?
kupo15
Smash Hero
I don't mean an addition to gravity, I mean the increased gravity difference. For example, I find that +11.75% hit stun is perfect with brawls original gravity. So in order to keep this relationship with an increased gravity, I need to figure out the difference between the two gravity that I am adding (0.25 for example) and I need to take that amount and subtract it from the hitstun to keep balance. So this means that:
1 (default gravity)= +11.75% hitstun
1.25 gravity=+11.5% hitstun
If I am correct by the gravity kicking in after kb wears off, it would make sense because kb is calculated for a short period of time (not just at the moment of impact) so you still have all that time after kb is done that gravity affects. I am fairly positive gravity kicks in after kb is done because while testing at 0 gravity, you would be sent upwards and when the kb wore off, you stopped in your tracks. I need some clarification for how this code actually works because I thought leaf said that this code only affects you when travel down after the apex of your arc at anytime but I really am not sure....
But if what you said is correct that your actually are moding the gravity so it affects you on the way up, then what I said earlier should be correct. Whatever you add to the gravity must be subtracted from the hitstun.
@matt dunno but I think you can use the online code for offline
Shell
Flute-Fox Only
- Joined
- Feb 7, 2007
- Messages
- 2,042
I see what you're saying about the difference. I don't think it's a linear relationship, though. If you're looking for values, just try 1.30 and 10%.
The "downward" gravity code affects you on the way up and on the way down. The upwards one just modifies the gravity acting on jumps and recovery moves (not vertical knockback).
I'm still confused by your "kicking in after KB" comment. At what point during an usmash kill does the knockback wear off before you get KO'd?
The "downward" gravity code affects you on the way up and on the way down. The upwards one just modifies the gravity acting on jumps and recovery moves (not vertical knockback).
I'm still confused by your "kicking in after KB" comment. At what point during an usmash kill does the knockback wear off before you get KO'd?
BrutalBrutal
Smash Cadet
Remember that "+11.75% hitstun" doesn't actually mean "+11.75%". The game's default is 0.4 and "+11.75%" is 0.5175 . That means that "+11.75%" is actually 29.375% more than the game's default hitstun (it is 0.4 * 1.29375). This discrepancy is the result of an inaccurate naming convention. When we say "+11.75%", we actually mean that we are adding 0.1175 to the game's default value of 0.4 .
We don't want to keep the ratio of fallspeed to hitstun because the ideal level of hitstun is inversely proportion to fallspeed, so we need instead to keep the ratio of 1/fallspeed to hitstun identical. So, if you made fallspeed = 1.35, by your logic hitstun should be multiplied by (1/1.35), because that would keep the ratio of 1/fallspeed to hitstun.
1.29375 * (1/135) = 0.95833
0.95833 * 04 = 0.383333
So 0.383333 is the number you should, by your logic, make the hitstun at 1.35x fallspeed.
Remember that the hitstun should be inversely proportional to the fallspeed, so
Current ratio of 1/fallspeed to hitstun is (1/1) : 1.29375 = 0.7729 : 1
New ratio of 1/fallspeed to hitstun is (1/1.35) : 0.95833 = 0.7729 : 1
Your logic, however, is flawed because fallspeed and hitstun are not directly linked in a 1:1 level of importance/weight like that and keeping the ratio will not yield the results you desire: we will simply have to test it a whole lot more. May I suggest we find the ideal hitstun at two different fallspeeds and then plot a graph by drawing a line between the two in order to find the ideal value of one for a specific value of the other.
Sorry if this was confusing
.Also: vis-a-vis the fallspeed code having effect while in knockback: maybe the gravity used while the character is in hitstun is the falling gravity. That would explain nerfed vertical KOs (which, I might add, I think are a good thing).
SketchHurricane
Smash Ace
It's been said that the window for teching enters a "cooldown" period each time you attempt it. This means that if you press L/R anytime during your flight, then you must wait a certain number of frames before your ability to tech returns. I'm not sure how long this period is, but it seems that attempting to shield too late and getting hit greatly reduces your chances of teching a low hitting move, since you already pressed L/R at the very beginning of your flight and must suffer the cooldown period.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tLWmsDhpDk4
0:17
There are a few more uses, like http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wWiQTh63_XU .
krlos F.
Smash Journeyman
Guys, about No auto sweetspot code, well I use Luigi, Peach, Zelda, and Lucas, and I've found something I don't like about it, when u use sideB with Peach or Luigi it's a glitchy, sometimes they grab the ledge if u do sideb horizontal to the ledge and sometimes they don't... and that botters me because u can lose a life with that!
leafgreen386
Dirty camper
@everyone: Merry Christmas all! And Happy <whatever you celebrate> if you don't celebrate Christmas, too!
@krlos: lrn2sweetspot
@kupo: The zero grav thing only proved that kb and gravity were separate. It doesn't suggest at all that grav doesn't kick in until after kb, and just by observing higher and lower grav values you should be able to see that it's clearly in effect for the entirety of kb... If you are not jumping or using an attack that gives you upward momentum (ie. fox's fair or an upB), then "downward grav" is acting on you, even if you're getting hit upward. Brutal seemed to cover everything else, so I'll leave it there.
@matt: The two ALC codes do exactly the same thing offline, except one works online without desyncing and the other does not.
@Online ALC code getting released: FRICK YES!
@krlos: lrn2sweetspot
@kupo: The zero grav thing only proved that kb and gravity were separate. It doesn't suggest at all that grav doesn't kick in until after kb, and just by observing higher and lower grav values you should be able to see that it's clearly in effect for the entirety of kb... If you are not jumping or using an attack that gives you upward momentum (ie. fox's fair or an upB), then "downward grav" is acting on you, even if you're getting hit upward. Brutal seemed to cover everything else, so I'll leave it there.
@matt: The two ALC codes do exactly the same thing offline, except one works online without desyncing and the other does not.
@Online ALC code getting released: FRICK YES!
kupo15
Smash Hero
But I want to try 1.15 gravity >_<
Are you sure? Weird, I thought that the first line is gravity on the way up no matter the situation and the second line was gravity on the way down no matter the situation
It appears I was wrong. I guess I interpreted leafs testing wrong as I was performing them for him
I thought it was good logic but I guess since the scale isn't the same its correct, it wouldn't be. Leaf, come up with a formula for calculating the new hit stun based on the normal gravity to 11.75% relationshipRemember that "+11.75% hitstun" doesn't actually mean "+11.75%". The game's default is 0.4 and "+11.75%" is 0.5175 . That means that "+11.75%" is actually 29.375% more than the game's default hitstun (it is 0.4 * 1.29375). This discrepancy is the result of an inaccurate naming convention. When we say "+11.75%", we actually mean that we are adding 0.1175 to the game's default value of 0.4 .
We don't want to keep the ratio of fallspeed to hitstun because the ideal level of hitstun is inversely proportion to fallspeed, so we need instead to keep the ratio of 1/fallspeed to hitstun identical. So, if you made fallspeed = 1.35, by your logic hitstun should be multiplied by (1/1.35), because that would keep the ratio of 1/fallspeed to hitstun.
1.29375 * (1/135) = 0.95833
0.95833 * 04 = 0.383333
So 0.383333 is the number you should, by your logic, make the hitstun at 1.35x fallspeed.
Remember that the hitstun should be inversely proportional to the fallspeed, so
Current ratio of 1/fallspeed to hitstun is (1/1) : 1.29375 = 0.7729 : 1
New ratio of 1/fallspeed to hitstun is (1/1.35) : 0.95833 = 0.7729 : 1
Your logic, however, is flawed because fallspeed and hitstun are not directly linked in a 1:1 level of importance/weight like that and keeping the ratio will not yield the results you desire: we will simply have to test it a whole lot more. May I suggest we find the ideal hitstun at two different fallspeeds and then plot a graph by drawing a line between the two in order to find the ideal value of one for a specific value of the other.
Sorry if this was confusing
Also: vis-a-vis the fallspeed code having effect while in knockback: maybe the gravity used while the character is in hitstun is the falling gravity. That would explain nerfed vertical KOs (which, I might add, I think are a good thing).
Merry Christmas everyone
no actually its not working for me... i have to use both. well i dont know if the online ALC is working at all since i dont have anyone to play online with. i just know that i have to use both 2 have ALC offline
leafgreen386
Dirty camper
...no you don't. You only need the original ALC offline. You only needed the original ALC before, and you only need it now.
no no i mean that the reg ALC works fine but the online ALC doenst work offline and i dont know if it works online becuase i havent tested it online so i really dont know if it works at all v_v' but i do know that the reg (offline) ALC works fine offline and desyncs online pretty bad (really bad with mario for some odd reason) so i have both on so that while i wait to try online ALC.. online i can still have ALC offline.
leafgreen386
Dirty camper
Well if it was made specifically for online, then it probably does only work online for the same reasons the reg ALC desyncs online. If you want, we can try playing online and test it out. How does no trip, hitstun +.1175, regular grav, online ALC, and ledge codes sound? Reply in PM or over AIM (my screenname is the same as my smashboards name) so we don't clog up this thread.
kupo15
Smash Hero
Ill be testing the gravity thing this weekend but I personally don't feel that brawl's gravity should be like melee's. I think it should not be visually different, but feels different which is why I'm leaning towards a smaller number like 1.15
Magus420
Smash Master
I wonder if it's possible for a code to allow wall and ceiling collisions during hitlag like in 64/Melee? With that and an increased tech window, the characters that have no way of sweetspotting their recoveries with the new code wouldn't be completely ****ed by edgeguarding and could at least SDI and edgetech.
kupo15
Smash Hero
Sounds good
...k
Whats the recommended hit stun value with 1.3? +10%? And is the code for gravity 3FA66666?
So if:
1 gravity=+11.75%
1.3 gravity=+10%
then
1.15=+10.875%
(rough est as a starting point)
MookieRah
Kinda Sorta OK at Smash
@Kupo
Come on mangz, you arbitrarily decided based on some math formula in your head that 11.5% would be good to make up for increased fall speed. There isn't anything wrong with testing 11.5% but you don't have to try and make it sound like it's a legit method of thinking XD. I think you try to hard to justify your reasons for things instead of just testing and talking about how your hit stun affects things.
On another note, as the Kishes were saying, we need some Brawl+ tournaments. We need some really competitive evidence of people trying their best to win actual cash instead of just trying to beat their friends. Until we have this, we really don't have a **** clue what is best for the game. I really wish I could host a tournament around here, but it will be a while before I can. I'm going to have to pretty much hold a Brawl tournament at State next semester just to find the people who might be interested in Brawl+.
Come on mangz, you arbitrarily decided based on some math formula in your head that 11.5% would be good to make up for increased fall speed. There isn't anything wrong with testing 11.5% but you don't have to try and make it sound like it's a legit method of thinking XD. I think you try to hard to justify your reasons for things instead of just testing and talking about how your hit stun affects things.
On another note, as the Kishes were saying, we need some Brawl+ tournaments. We need some really competitive evidence of people trying their best to win actual cash instead of just trying to beat their friends. Until we have this, we really don't have a **** clue what is best for the game. I really wish I could host a tournament around here, but it will be a while before I can. I'm going to have to pretty much hold a Brawl tournament at State next semester just to find the people who might be interested in Brawl+.
SketchHurricane
Smash Ace
Merry Christmas/Happy Holidays to all!
Just something I wanted to quickly point out. You know how the IC's upB has Nana Grab first, then Popo on a sweetspot? Well, with the lagless edge code, you can actually let go of the ledge with Nana before Popo gets there, and have Popo glide slowly to his death! Make sure you watch out for this if you're using IC's with this code on. My friend was trying to be fast on the ledges and accidentally killed himself this way...
@Mookie
You're right, we definitely need some tourney impressions. I was tossing around the idea of hosting a tourney in general before Brawl+, and now that Brawl+ is near complete, it will definitely be a Brawl+ tourney if I have one. The only problem is, I have no idea how the rest of the Orlando scene views Brawl+. I haven't been in the Orlando thread lately, and I haven't seen any of them in here. I definitely have to spread the word to them and have them practice up if I want the tourney to hold any promise...
Just something I wanted to quickly point out. You know how the IC's upB has Nana Grab first, then Popo on a sweetspot? Well, with the lagless edge code, you can actually let go of the ledge with Nana before Popo gets there, and have Popo glide slowly to his death! Make sure you watch out for this if you're using IC's with this code on. My friend was trying to be fast on the ledges and accidentally killed himself this way...
@Mookie
You're right, we definitely need some tourney impressions. I was tossing around the idea of hosting a tourney in general before Brawl+, and now that Brawl+ is near complete, it will definitely be a Brawl+ tourney if I have one. The only problem is, I have no idea how the rest of the Orlando scene views Brawl+. I haven't been in the Orlando thread lately, and I haven't seen any of them in here. I definitely have to spread the word to them and have them practice up if I want the tourney to hold any promise...
leafgreen386
Dirty camper
The last time I heard of brawl+ being brought to a tourney in FL, it was well received, and there weren't even that many codes back then. So you should definitely ask around. I'm sure you'll find quite a few people who are interested.
kupo15
Smash Hero
I never said it was concretely good. I merely came up with what I felt a logical starting place would be to start testing to keep the relationship I felt was good. Where did I actually say "ok guys, this is the right hitstun value 100%" instead of "here is what I am going to start my testing with"
I feel you read into my posts too much to find something wrong with what I say to criticize. -_-
MookieRah
Kinda Sorta OK at Smash
@Kupo
It's the way you explained your reasoning as to why you are using what you are using. You make it sound empirical or that it's based on something significant to make your claims sound less opinion based and more logical. If you just posted "I'm going to try this and see how it goes" it wouldn't be a big deal.
It's the way you explained your reasoning as to why you are using what you are using. You make it sound empirical or that it's based on something significant to make your claims sound less opinion based and more logical. If you just posted "I'm going to try this and see how it goes" it wouldn't be a big deal.
SketchHurricane
Smash Ace
Cool. I posted in the UCF/Orlando thread to see what they think. I'll probably hit up the two upcoming Gigabits tourneys and ask around there as well.
kupo15
Smash Hero
Sorry, I didn't think it would sound that way seeing how my previous posts on the topic were asking for help to get me started with testing the gravity codes. Next time I'll be more clear.
leafgreen386
Dirty camper
Yeah. I think it was brought to a melee tournament. Just so you know which crowd I was talking about.
Starscream
Smash Ace
Well I don't know how the people in your area will react but when I posted about Brawl+ in the BC section I got responses like "Brawl for wussies", "Making a bad game worse". Then I got annoyed, made myself look like an *** then had to come back a couple days later and clear it all up so I didn't permanently end up on people's black list. Basically someone ended up saying "I'll try it if you bring it".
So basically prepare for the worst and if people mock Brawl+ without really giving you an answer... well just don't make the same mistake I did.
leafgreen386
Dirty camper
Also, don't make the mistake jiang made and not explain everything from the beginning. Brawl+ is a work in progress and those who had already tried it may have done so with a very outdated codeset that may not even be used anymore (think s-cancel/MLC/MAD/gravity/hitstun before there was a modifier/etc).
If I get a chance tonight, I'll test 11% with 1.15. (seems close enough)
Hopefully we're getting closer to where we want to be with these values.
BrutalBrutal
Smash Cadet
1.15 fallspeed? That's nothing. Basically, we might as well not use the code if you feel it should be kept so low. I know you've said that you don't want it to be too Melee-like: believe me, even when I had it cranked up to 1.5 Fox fell noticeably slower than his Melee counterpart. 1.25 is probably the minimum level; I would back 1.35 or 1.4 as ideal values. It feels much better than Vanilla Brawl's floatiness, and 1.15 is not doing enough to combat it. People are being too conservative with this. Don't be afraid to crank the value way up when testing: you may find that high values are actually far more viable than you anticipated. I am sure that 1.15 is far too low to even be considered the minimum starting point for increased fallspeed.
kupo15
Smash Hero
Yea, its a tough crowd. I know the first time I bring mine to a tourney, I will use no trip, hit stun, ALC. I won't use ledge codes or decay codes if it is a brawl crowd. I want to keep things familiar and use codes you can catch onto easy. No ASL is something Im still adjusting too...Well I don't know how the people in your area will react but when I posted about Brawl+ in the BC section I got responses like "Brawl for wussies", "Making a bad game worse". Then I got annoyed, made myself look like an *** then had to come back a couple days later and clear it all up so I didn't permanently end up on people's black list. Basically someone ended up saying "I'll try it if you bring it".
So basically prepare for the worst and if people mock Brawl+ without really giving you an answer... well just don't make the same mistake I did.
Im not afraid to crank it up for testing, but making it considerably higher as a standard I think is ridiculous. We should be up for minor tweaking. I don't feel like explaining myself cause Im a bit flustered at the moment about other things
Starscream
Smash Ace
Well I play 10% hitstun with 1.35x gravity with 1.065x damage mods and it feels great. It's not an ideal solution because of the horizontal kill buffs but I just don't like the prospect of nerfing vertical kills or going anywhere below 1.35x gravity. Even with no knockback decay, the gravity itself will just bring back utilt locks to where they were. At the same time, going back to slow and floaty Brawl is absolutely not an option for me. Basically, I think we need a vertical knockback modifier.
kupo15
Smash Hero
Whats wrong with 1.15 gravity? Does it not feel any different? I am assuming that something like 1.15 would be perfect for not looking any different but feeling different. I am hours away from testing it btw but I just want to understand where you are coming from..
Its killing me that we are this close from getting a solid game yet I have no control over making them or whatever.. I just want nerfed shields, DD and triple jump fix....T_T
Starscream
Smash Ace
I haven't tried 1.15 yet but I'll get to it later. I just think that 1.35 feels right the same way you thought 11.75% hitstun felt right. I enjoy the speed it brings and I'm fine with some of the easy KO setups like Falcon dthrow to knee being less effective. I also just really don't like regular Brawl's floatiness and just hypothesizing about 1.15 it would seem to be not as drastic of a change as I'd like to the gravity. But hey, I'll give it a shot.