COMPETITIVE Brawl+: Code Agenda

[MookieRah]

Just wanted to pop in and see what kinds of new codes have been developed and I am quite giddy with what I'm seeing. The sad thing is my wii isn't modded (was playing all the time on my friends wii at our apartment during the semester) and my friend with Twilight Princess is about to leave for his grandparents for Christmas stuff.

Some were talking about footstool and imo it should be kept.

Just how often is this used intentionally in competitive play? I never, ever see it, unless the person is purposely trying to add insult to injury as they are falling to their death. Most of the time it does happen it happens when people aren't trying to do it, and it results to adding more "luck" factor in a match. If I'm wrong about this please tell me about it, cause my background in the current competitive Brawl scene is extremely limited.

@Finns
I don't have to test the new codes to know that you are wrong about MK. MK will still **** Ganon because MK's attacks all outprioritize Ganon, come out much faster, and would combo better. MK also has a much better recovery, and with his side B he would still be able to grab the ledge with ease and Ganon wouldn't be able to do much about it. Meanwhile Ganon is kicked in the balls a bit cause his recovery is still bad, and he would have to worry about rampant Meta downsmash edgeguards. It is incredibly likely that Meta is even more broke than he was before. Just cause people can combo him, it doesn't take away the things that make him broke in the first place.

 

[Shell]

I've only given Ganondorf seven or eight matches with the new ledge codes, but here's what I noticed:

It's difficult to sweetspot ganondorf's recovery because of the uppercut they added to the end of the up-b. Although you think it would protect him, in my experience it just acts as a vulnerable hurtbox above the stage. Several times I've traded blows with a T Link dsmash or a MK dsmash. Sure, I uppercut them, but they dsmash me into oblivion.

I hope I'm wrong. I'll work on getting that sweetspot later today.

 

[storm92]

Ledgetechs are actually useful again.
Woo.

 

[SketchHurricane]

I can only see ness's edgeguarding going into beast mode and lucas's aswell (if you know what your doing, and if they recover 2 early). The auto sweet spot does not effect tethers its the same from what I seen I main link btw and I used zzs to when I tried it.

I can second that. I'm uploading a few vids of Ness vs Fox. They aren't amazing or anything, but you can easily see the opportunities while watching Fox's recovery. PK Flash edgeguard could actually get reliable, and let's not talk about his freaking spike.

I haven't tested tethers, but I'll do some of that today. I have seen Link's though, and it seemed uneffected. I might record a few MK matches. I want to start looking at how much he can be comboed. We all speculate that he's even more unstoppable now, but maybe a few reliable death combos for the other characters will make things reasonable.

 

[MookieRah]

PK Flash edgeguards won't be that good, as it's not terribly different from how it was in Melee. PK Freeze would be better cause of it's speed, but it's still very limited. Smart players will be able to avoid it fairly well.

but maybe a few reliable death combos for the other characters will make things reasonable.

Relying on death combos to balance a character would be a bad idea, as it will take a long, long time to come up with the proper values for all these codes. What may cause death combos on MK would very well break the game at the same time. Overall Meta has gotten better with stun, and now he can edgeguard. He can still recover easily due to his amazing B-moves, so it's hard to edgeguard him. Marth would probably be able to due to the fact that tippers seem to break through Meta's B move nonsense, but still very few characters could stand up against Meta.

 

[SketchHurricane]

What may cause death combos on MK would very well break the game at the same time.

Well I don't mean 0-death. Just some reliable two-hitter quitters, know what I mean? But yeah, it's pretty obvious that meta benefits way more than he gets hurt. Downsmash edgeguard alone already sounds too good.

Anyway, 2 Ness vs Fox vids

 

[Shell]

Yeah, I'd still be interested in the most code-efficient way of nerfing MK out of the ban zone. People have already suggested making the hitstun code not apply to him. Alternatively, you could use the Knockback/damage ratio at .90 or so only on Player 4 (4 lines or so). Then MK just uses port 4.

Of course, none of this would be implemented until after more tournies and playtesting.

 

[Finns7]

Ganondorf counters meta, I may sound silly but he has 3 hitter quiters plus the sideb followups on him and the downthrow to rapeair (fair)

 

[MookieRah]

Yeah, I'd still be interested in the most code-efficient way of nerfing MK out of the ban zone.

I can think of two things. Have a code that prevents Meta from benefiting from hitstun, and add a code that lowers the priority of his B moves. That way his comboing wouldn't be insane, but it'd still be good, and he couldn't spam his B moves or even rely entirely on a > B recovery.

Ganondorf counters meta, I may sound silly but he has 3 hitter quiters plus the sideb followups on him and the downthrow to rapeair (fair)

No, he doesn't. There is no logical way you can say that either. You are playing on a setup that is going to be very different than any final version of Brawl+ that becomes standardized, and you haven't played it long enough and in the correct way to determine that Ganon counters Meta. I'm not saying that to be mean or to demean you, it's just how it is. Ganon would still have a hard time with Meta even after the nerf I just proposed, ESPECIALLY considering what Shell has said about his recovery being hard to sweetspot without getting hit.

 

[cAm8ooo]

How about just taking away his killing power. Make him rely more on edge guarding.

 

[MookieRah]

How about just taking away his killing power. Make him rely more on edge guarding.

If you lower knockback you make it easier to combo. If you were trying to take up as little code as possible it would be a universal fix over Meta's entire moveset. Honestly, removing some of his knockback could possibly make him better, although it's doubtful. Still, it would be very, very hard to determine how much knockback you should lower, and even more opinionated and a bigger can of worms than hitstun could ever hope to be.

 

[cAm8ooo]

I dont really see his D-smash as much of a comboer. Limiting it's ko power alone would help alot. Though i do agree about it being a very touchy subject.

The moveset nerf is a good idea too.

 

[Finns7]

The no sweetspot does kill him but ganon benefits alot in the matchup with hitstun and mobility, one thunderstomp combo and he is at 50% easy, the counter thing was just for lulz but seriously with the current buffer system, if Meta gets caught in a great ganon players combo starter (usually 2 moves for like 30%) he is gonna get deflowered and if he is over 90 and gets caught in a SideB the Ganon player can buffer in a ftilt which will kill Meta if its fresh, also he has grab combos on him. Its still in metas favor but ganon is seriously not at a disadvantage as much as he was before, if you pick the right stage of course.


With the sweetspot code idk guys, I think brawl designed there chars to have to autosweetspot, Idk its too early to tell but some chars movesets kinda make them too overpowered with this setting.

 

[MookieRah]

Oh, I didn't know you were referring to JUST his downsmash. If that's the case then yeah, that probably would work. I'm dumb sometimes.

The thing is, we'd have to nerf one thing at a time. If we applied the things I've said and then nerfed his downsmash Meta might end up being terrible. The point of the nerf is to just put him on a level playing field, and as I've seen way too often with MMO's, you should always nerf one thing at a time, cause if you nerf 5-6 things and they suck, then you don't know what caused them to suck and it takes even longer to balance than if you took baby steps.
[qute]SideB the Ganon player can buffer in a ftilt[/quote]
Murder choke to ftilt doesn't combo. Murder choke is awesome for putting people into a wakeup game, but none of that stuff is guaranteed. It would be effective, but please don't make it out to be the end all of the match.

Good luck landing a random thunder stomp on a good meta.

The matchup would still heavily favor Meta, pure and simple. Just cause you do well versus your friends Meta doesn't mean much.

 

[Finns7]

What exactly makes metaknight broken? Are we talking about in normal brawl or brawl+. I can see his upb aswell as his dair getting nerfed, but what about the metaknight mainers themselves, I would prob would not be interested in this project if my main had a code specifically made to nerf him.

 

[leafgreen386]

Murder choke to ftilt doesn't combo. Murder choke is awesome for putting people into a wakeup game, but none of that stuff is guaranteed. It would be effective, but please don't make it out to be the end all of the match.

Unless things have changed since I mained him, ganon does have a guaranteed hit on most of the cast out of his sideB. They can't roll out/attack/get up fast enough to not get hit.

But ganon will definitely still get ***** by mk. Finns, what are you talking about? >_>

As for nerfing mk, I personally like the idea of just making it so all of his moves are at max stale all the time.

 

[Shell]

That might just add to his combo potential.

Sidenote - Nice vids SketchHurricane. It was good to see a fresh edge game. I also happen to be using the exact same code set as you. 1.3 fall rate and .5/10% hitstun seem like a good balance in my experience.

 

[Heavyarms2050]

im pretty sure once we get that shield stun code, MK should be nerf enough not to be banned. And beside, once we have enough practices with the finalize Brawl+, im sure that there some MK exploitation we can use against him

 

[Finns7]

Mookie ganon can jab, dtilt, ftilt, and im think a dash attack all guaranteed on meta, and if he is at around 90 and its fresh he is dead. Leaf Meta ***** everyone but with histun you can send the **** back lol. And yeah you can land in a thunderstomp on a good meta its not going to be random, some of his moves actually combo into it.


yeah I agree heavy, but lets just hope it doesnt benefit him that much.

 

[Shell]

What truly combos into thunderstomp? Other than another thunderstomp?

 

[Revven]

What truly combos into thunderstomp? Other than another thunderstomp?

Uhh... Usmash usually does and Fsmash (if spaced correctly) oh and Uair depending on percent.

 

[storm92]

Tech chasing a sideB?

Plus, I think leaf knows what he's talking about with Ganon and his combo ability.
He mains him, I've played him, and he has a da** good Ganondorf.

 

[Finns7]

I main him I know what im talking about, we actually agree, he can do a legit dtilt, ftilt, jab and I think a dash out of the choke.

Depending on the hitstun ganon can ravish meta if he lands a thunderstomp which is very possible against an aggressive meta. In 11.75 its 2 guaranteed into a upair which is like 60 lol or do thunderstomps into fair. Guys grab a friend and go test his down throw to fair at like 80 percent, try and DI it from my matches its really hard for meta to get out of that.

 

[MuBa]

Since I main Snake all I can say is that he's going to be beastly. But he can also be combo'd hardcore.

I can chain at least 2 U-tilts and if they DI, then I can upsmash them.

Ftilt -> C4 stick -> Now!

---

Ike can do a Dair -> Upsmash

Dair -> Bair

Upthrow -> Aether

Fthrow -> Forward B

And much more that aren't in my head atm...


I will have to say this much that we NEED to increase the window for teching, even if it's a little.

 

[Heavyarms2050]

dair into an upsmash w/ Ike? R sure its not uptilt?

 

[Finns7]

You ever play against a toonlink Muba @_@ if you dont tech ur gayed. Yeah dude with snake ftilt to utilt to nair is 48% and that wasnt even fresh. But snake gets ravaged by combos even when you DI in some cases, but with a good defensive game and tech skill you can ****.


I think the upsmash is not guaranteed but the tilt is idk though, it depends on the hitstun levels.

 

[Ignatius]

Just how often is this used intentionally in competitive play? I never, ever see it, unless the person is purposely trying to add insult to injury as they are falling to their death. Most of the time it does happen it happens when people aren't trying to do it, and it results to adding more "luck" factor in a match. If I'm wrong about this please tell me about it, cause I'm a good dude.

Footstooling has its uses, and isn't really random/accidental when you know what you're doing. There's some combos that can be done using something like a grab release > footstoll, or throw > Footstool.

Even with Charizard I use a fair > footstool to edgeguard every now and again. Though, Im kind of surprised you'd count it as a "luck" factor, I know when I'm going to footstool or not <_<;

 

[SketchHurricane]

Footstooling has its uses, and isn't really random/accidental when you know what you're doing. There's some combos that can be done using something like a grab release > footstoll, or throw > Footstool.

Even with Charizard I use a fair > footstool to edgeguard every now and again. Though, Im kind of surprised you'd count it as a "luck" factor, I know when I'm going to footstool or not <_<;

Footstool still happens on accident a lot, and I think that's what most people dislike. It can screw up either the attacker or the victim...

BTW do you guys still feel that 11% seems easier to DI than 10%? When I switched back to 10 /1.3 after the fallspeed code came out, it seems kinda easier to combo. I was using 11/1.25 today and my friend was complaining about DI a bit...

 

[Osi]

So I put together yet another combo video lol. Tossed it together with all the old footage I had before the faster fall change since I don't want to mix footage from the 2 much. The faster fall rate makes things much faster, and changes combos so dramatically.

Here's the video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HfiDsnbVFVM

I hope you all enjoy it. It will be after the christmas break before I post another one sadly. All my competition went home for the holidays, so all I have to play against is CPUs. I can't wait to post stuff without the edge sweetspot there hehe.

Codes used:
MAD
ALC
11.75% hitstun
Ledge cancel
No trip
No replay cap
On 2 or 3 filler clips the faster fall was on 1.25 also - these were at 10% hitstun

 

[cAm8ooo]

Oh, I didn't know you were referring to JUST his downsmash. If that's the case then yeah, that probably would work. I'm dumb sometimes.

Haha, its ok. I should have been more clearer. But yea, i say just weaken his downsmash so that it doesnt kill till around 150. This means he has to rely more on his gimping game or his up B which is a little bit more telegraphed.

 

[Shell]

Excellent work, yet again, Osi.

I've been playing a lot of matches against Toon Link and I've had extra difficulty teching. Sometimes it seems impossible to tech. I've never had any problem teching any attack in 64/melee, so can anyone guess relative to those games if I'm teching too early or late? Does that make any sense? Is the window different, smaller, or do the codes make it actually impossible to tech 100% of tumble attacks?

Also, can you still ledge tech attacks during recoveries? I seem to recall some saying you could, others not.

 

[Revven]

I've been playing a lot of matches against Toon Link and I've had extra difficulty teching. Sometimes it seems impossible to tech. I've never had any problem teching any attack in 64/melee, so can anyone guess relative to those games if I'm teching too early or late? Does that make any sense? Is the window different, smaller, or do the codes make it actually impossible to tech 100% of tumble attacks?

In my experience with regular Brawl techs (haven't use the hitstun code yet so, I can't say there are any differences between it and regular Brawl), you have to press L/R as soon as you hit the ground, like, .5 seconds before you even touch it. The timing is a little tricky, especially since hitstun can put you into the tumble much faster now (going by the videos and what people have said anyway). I think you may need to practice it for now but, I would definitely be in favor of a larger window to tech, mostly similar to Smash 64's teching window, which was incredibly large and would suit Brawl better since they both are very floaty.

 

[Finns7]

For me I input down then press R/L it really helps Idk why, test it out, when your hit with tl boomerang press down then R/L

 

[Shadic]

Text that is impossible to read.

You need to change your font color, badly.

And what's the difference between the L Cancel Online code and the other one? This topic needs descriptions, badly.

 

[kupo15]

We have another version of ALC that is for online only since it has more lines from visual inspection

Ill get to the descriptions some time soon

 

[BrutalBrutal]

Edit: Woops, it seems I had posted in the wrong thread.

I'm a bit confused about this "online" ALC code. Did the previous code only work on offline matches, or does this new code just reduce/remove the chance of desynchs due to use of the code?

 

[kupo15]

the old ALC desynced online. This new one doesn't but it should not replace the old one since it is double the lines. Use them in their respective game modes

 

[matt4300]

does the online ALC work offline aswell because i seriously would consider using it if it does.

 

[Shell]

I played more matches with 10% hitstun, 1.3 Fall speed, and all the usuals. I encourage everyone to check these values out. Here's what I noticed:

-Teching is possible whenever you go into the tumble. However, it is stupidly difficult on quick attacks that don't send you up first (IE many f-tilts, or d-tilts). Also, at percentages from 0-35ish you won't enter the tumble animation from light attacks, and can't tech anything, even if it seems to knock you into the ground.

-While this second part can't likely be helped, I'm growing increasingly aggravated with the teching window. Simply put, it's a needlessly difficult window in a game that's streamlined and input-friendly. If anyone could extend the window slightly with a short code, I'd be grateful. Otherwise, practice makes perfect.

-I played all G-dorf (my Melee main) for about two hours. Luckily, I was wrong about his sweetspot. I just need to stay a little bit farther from the ledge horizontally. What's great is that if spaced properly, his uppercut hitbox will poke through the stage and ward off many edge guards while game-n-dorf stays safe.

-Near the edge, down-throw to stomp spike is ****

-Also near the edge, if you intercept a recovery with d-tilt, it will often lead to a beautiful fair kill at upper percentages. This worked especially well on fast fallers in Melee.

-The combination of hitstun and gravity do wonders for the games semi-spikes. For Ganondorf, his sparta kick is much more deadly as it has melee-sheik-fair trajectory and stun. His tipman spike is back to its melee self again. I only wish he could have his jab back (dream code?)

-Fox's shine spike is good again, as the spiked opponent now stays stunned longer and falls farther.

 

[kupo15]

does the online ALC work offline aswell because i seriously would consider using it if it does.

just suck it up and switch between the two. We seriously don't have the luxury of a bigger code when we can have the same effect at half the length.