Character Competitive Impressions

[Flamecircle]

Also the closer you're to sheik the easier they're to punish.[/quote]

Hi Smashboards!

To be honest I'm tired of nerfs. They just ruin people's efforts or characters and the fun of the game. Nintendo's focus should be to buff the low and mid tier characters so they can compete with the top tiers. Not just nerf top tiers, ruin people's mains, and make the meta be a bunch of nerfed and weak characters.

I personally think current patch is just fine. I don't agree with Diddy's 2nd nerf, but that's all.

Didn't you bring up Sheik as one of the characters who SHOULD be nerfed, when you were arguing about customs on twitter? Coney brought up that "Killing the neutral" is what good characters do, and you wanted less characters to be able to do that, even with 1111 sets, and suggested Sheik, rosalina, and luigi(?) be nerfed rather than a few custom characters gain that ability.

I'm sure you haven't change your mind on the customs thing, but did you change your mind on "Killing the neutral" being bad for the game?

 

[NickRiddle]

It's not about being able to beat it. Do you want to see Smash grow so you can play for bigger prizes and make a living doing what you love? Characters like Sonic are not going to help that happen. When the whole chat at CEO is ******** about Sonic and even the commentators are cracking jokes it's not good for growing the game. Melee doesn't have these problems and if smash is every going to unify the current game will have to be just as fun to watch as Melee.

1. I never EVER planned on making Smash my living... I do not live in that dream world.
2. That's because the chat is stupid; it doesn't take away from your arguments, but explains it.
3. Melee is boring as **** unless it's at the very VERY top level for me, so I already don't think it's more fun to watch than Smash 4.

To be fair there's quite a couple of characters who straight up have no viable option against that one move.

I mean, threatening Sonic's space is enough to force him out of spindash, and then you punish his landing like everybody else in the game.
Needles on the other hand...

 

[Fatmanonice]

What characters have been "ruined" by the patches though? is pretty much the only one that comes to my mind and even then people are arguing that he shouldn't be completely dismissed yet given what people have learned what to do with him lately. I think the buffs and nerfs have been largely reasonable so far.

 

[Ulevo]

Honestly I feel Nintendo has been pretty good with most of the changes they have made so far. I do feel they could buff lower tiers more appropriately, but they've made decent attempts at that too. I thought the last round of nerfs to Diddy were slightly unjustified, but MVD apparently did not care at CEO.

 

[BLKfrog]

Also the closer you're to sheik the easier they're to punish.

Didn't you bring up Sheik as one of the characters who SHOULD be nerfed, when you were arguing about customs on twitter? Coney brought up that "Killing the neutral" is what good characters do, and you wanted less characters to be able to do that, even with 1111 sets, and suggested Sheik, rosalina, and luigi(?) be nerfed rather than a few custom characters gain that ability.

I'm sure you haven't change your mind on the customs thing, but did you change your mind on "Killing the neutral" being bad for the game?[/quote]
Zero is right. But in my opinion a few nerfs were unnecessary, like diddy kong and let me explain why! now as a diddy main i am not going ultra defense mode, no im honest here. diddy does not have his specialty anymore, the up air was good last patch, he wasnt broken.. wait a second he NEVER was broken, meta knigt brawl that is BROKEN, im not gonna lie that diddy dominated the cast, but sakurais fault was that he brought only diddy down meanwhile sheik, rosalina and luigi were lurking. totally the worst installment of all the patches, but not gonna lie i love the dlcs.

 

[Deleted member]

Why does it make more sense to you to buff every single character in the game (some substantially) than it does to make very modest changes to 1 or 2 characters so that they aren't untouchable by half of the cast?

I mean, just imagine the changes you would have to make to Ganondorf in order to make him a legitimate threat to Sheik (or Rosalina for that matter!). Now imagine any other character trying to fight that Ganondorf.

The problem with Sheik is the design behind her: Lots of mobility, but poor damage output. If you go too far into nerfing/buffing either side, she becomes a far worse character, comparable to . The same problem exists with Ganondorf. His design is the opposite, poor mobility but with high damage output. If you gave him enough mobility Ganondorf could become a large threat because his moves would become easier to land and in turn create far more safe shield pressure, as well as Ganondorf being able to weave and escape situations he otherwise has to deal with. Once you remember that Sakurai also balances the game with FFAs in mind, the choices behind balancing make much more sense. Ganondorf doesn't need so much mobility to land hits in a FFA, while Sheik's struggle to land KOs becomes far more apparent in a time FFA format. I never suggested that every character needs a lot of buffs, I merely stated that giving more options to a character is better than taking them away. Take Sonic's spin dash damage nerf: Sure it does less damage, but the safety, mixups and combos it starts are all still intact so theoretically all he has to do is lame you out with a couple more hits since his speed inherently gives him an advantage. Rosalina had more time added to Luma's respawn timer, but all she does is stall for a couple more seconds to get Luma back. This game is already really balanced with the multitudes of formats that it can be played in, outside of a few exceptions like who doesn't have the mobility or tools to succeed in 1v1s or FFAs.

EDIT: For the record, I don't think Sheik is balanced for 1v1s, but only if the Sheik player plays perfectly to make up for her shortcomings. However, there isn't anything you can realistically do to nerf Sheik without making her horribly unbalanced in FFAs and 1v1s.

 

[Mr. Johan]

Hmm... They could tweak it so that Spin Charge is another move to use... Spin Dash could do less damage or something while being fast and it hits multiple times?, but it passes through shields not as easily. Spin Charge could be given more power, maybe kill (at later percents), hit once?, and perhaps pass through shields a bit better than Spin Dash. Both could combo, but Spin Dash is more vertical and Charge more horizontal.

I don't know - I don't play Sonic -, but they should make Spin Charge a more useful move in Sonic's kit if Spin Dash really is that versatile and powerful.

Oh right, Spin Charge is a multi-strike move now, I forgot, lol. Spin Dash is a "single" strike that leads to more hits.

On a pure numbers game, Spin Charge does do more damage that Spin Dash, but the chargeup needed for it to make the damage difference significant makes Charge less threatening as a quick surprise tool to punish the already-practically-nonexistent endlag this game gives moves and actions. Best to Side B, abuse the invincibility and spacing of the hop, and followup instead.

If Spin Charge had a variant of Meta Knight's shieldbreaking Drill Rush custom that did a truck load of damage, then the move would see some practical use in my view. Make it so that this Spin Charge custom cannot be jump canceled (i.e. He has to screech stop) as the balancing tweak for this move.

 

[san.]

Fix how specials clank and a looot of dumb stuff gets fixed.

 

[bc1910]

Greninja is the only case of a once-viable character being made unviable by nerfs. The balance patches have generally been quite conservative with nerfs, Greninja is the only exception. Even both of Diddy's nerfs didn't detract from his incredibly strong gameplan, which is why he still works. It's just his kill power and get-out-of-jail-free card that were nerfed, really.

They are starting to take more risks with buffs though. Charizard's throw buffs could have made him pretty ridiculous (I'm positive his win rate will have skyrocketed on For Glory), Ike was buffed a LOT while already being pretty good, and MK was buffed quite a bit despite being good and having some results.

 

[Flamecircle]

Fix how specials clank and a looot of dumb stuff gets fixed.

How you mean?

 

[Speed Boost]

I think we are forgetting the Little Mac nerf. It wasn't just Greninja that got **** on.

 

[san.]

How you mean?

Spin dash and luma attacking ignoring aerials due to clanking mostly. Just need to have hitbox interactions make a bit more sense.

 

[BiRdZ]

Greninja is the only case of a once-viable character being made unviable by nerfs. The balance patches have generally been quite conservative with nerfs, Greninja is the only exception. Even both of Diddy's nerfs didn't detract from his incredibly strong gameplan, which is why he still works. It's just his kill power and get-out-of-jail-free card that were nerfed, really.

They are starting to take more risks with buffs though. Charizard's throw buffs could have made him pretty ridiculous (I'm positive his win rate will have skyrocketed on For Glory), Ike was buffed a LOT while already being pretty good, and MK was buffed quite a bit despite being good and having some results.

How has Greninja's nerf made him unviable? His Up-Smash was ridiculous when the game came out and i don't remember what his shurikens were like. When he did get nerfed, sure it was huge, but he's certainly wasn't made unviable because of them.

 

[Speed Boost]

How has Greninja's nerf made him unviable? His Up-Smash was ridiculous when the game came out and i don't remember what his shurikens were like. When he did get nerfed, sure it was huge, but he's certainly wasn't made unviable because of them.

Yeah, he is certainly viable just not top tier. I don't think Little Mac was ever top tier even at launch, so his nerf was somewhat unecessary, but I still understand why it happened.

 

[bc1910]

Mac hardly got **** on. Less damage on a 20(!!!)% jab combo and aerial side B going a tiny bit less distance does little to affect the character at high level, where he has better options from jab cancels and shouldn't be recovering anyway.

Shurikens had less ending lag meaning a lot more characters had to approach Greninja and he could also chase after them and combo into dashgrab more effectively. Up Smash had too much range but was not as ridiculous as people claim and did not need the ending lag nerf, it was already punishable on block.

Greninja has literally 1 result from 1 player (aMSa's 9th at Apex) that suggests he is viable at a national level, and that was months ago. I don't actually think Greninja is unviable in his current build, but the results speak for themselves. Of all the potential Brawlimar sleeper characters though, Greninja is top of my list.

 

[Ulevo]

Spin dash and luma attacking ignoring aerials due to clanking mostly. Just need to have hitbox interactions make a bit more sense.

You want to know what makes even less sense? Phantom footstools.

You should not be able to footstool an opponent if they are not in neutral air or ground state.

 

[FullMoon]

Not even Greninja was ruined by nerfs because he only got two moves nerfed significantly, Up-Smash and Water Shuriken and only the latter has a really noticeable impact in his playstyle but he's still hardly a bad character, just one that's difficult to use in high level.

F-Air and Up-Air got knockback reductions that allow them to combo better into stuff, Shadow Sneak got a huge buff in end lag that added a very good tool to his edgeguarding game while also considerably improving his recovery, D-Smash was a mixed bag, etc.

Saying Greninja is unviable is just silly. He lacks representation but I don't think we should base if a character is viable or not based on that.

 

[T-nuts]

Sonic was designed to be very similar to his buttons from Classic Sonic games.

Sonic could hold Spin Dash indefinitely in the classic games, and in a majority of the more current games as well. Making it stop charging after a specific time runs counter to that intentional design choice.

Kirby can fly infinitely in his games. Also, when kirby inhales an enemy, they are dead. Sometimes it's best not to make characters in smash function exactly like their in-game counterparts.

What characters have been "ruined" by the patches though? is pretty much the only one that comes to my mind and even then people are arguing that he shouldn't be completely dismissed yet given what people have learned what to do with him lately. I think the buffs and nerfs have been largely reasonable so far.

I'm pretty sure I saw a greninja main in this very thread saying post-nerf Greninja only loses in 2 or 3 matchups out of the entire cast. I certainly wouldn't call that a "ruined" character. I know it's frustrating he isn't placing competitively, but neither are... I dunno... 35 other characters. EDIT: I see that everyone else already beat me to this point. Well played, everyone else.

 

[Mr. Johan]

Kirby can fly infinitely in his games. Also, when kirby inhales an enemy, they are dead. Sometimes it's best not to make characters in smash function exactly like their in-game counterparts.

Kirby has never been discussed in developers notes like the Brawl Dojo as being completely faithful to the source material, though. Sonic has.

 

[Luco]

Geez, someone brought up a hypothetical question about 'what would you nerf if you were going to nerf Rosalina' and suddenly everyone jumps on it. I'll have you all know I said explicitly that I'd be fine if she remained where she was, so

Anyway, there absolutely IS something you could do with sheik not to ruin her: Give her buffs as well as nerfs.

Sheik could do with her old Bair back. In return, rework needles to be less polarising, perhaps they do decent damage but no hitstun so that they're actually risky to use. Suddenly, your fast character archetype remains, only now she doesn't dictate where every neutral exchange happens and instead plays neutral more honestly like everyone else. She might even have issues against some projectile users. Yay, suddenly everyone in top tier has counters. Nintendo can go home (before being dragged back to the office to start buffing Zelda, Samus, DDD and friends). Everyone wins.

Also, Greninja's fine. He only "fell from grace" if you believe he was top 4 like everyone seemed to in the early 3DS days. He's still a mainstay high tier character and none of his nerfs were actually that massive (even shuriken's nerfs were okay)

 

[T-nuts]

Kirby has never been discussed in developers notes like the Brawl Dojo as being completely faithful to the source material, though. Sonic has.

OK. But keeping a character faithful to his source material is not a good excuse for poor game design, especially when other characters in the game don't get this treatment.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

I don't think D3 needs drastic buffs. The least Sakurai and Co. could do is make Gordos a little hardier, and I think a lot of us D3s would be happy.

Smooth Criminal

 

[TSM ZeRo]

The thing is while needles are strong and all, they have some interesting flaws which prevents true needle camping. If you noticed my matches at CEO (Or any Sheik in particular) you can only needle up to some point. Back when they weren't nerfed, with less cooldown, it was a different story, but they're actually punishable at some ranges (Though you can needle slower characters, like Luigi struggles to get in, but completely murders you once he does, for example). Also, I was playing Mr R with my Diddy and I punished a lot of his needles. It's possible and Diddy isn't exactly fast in the medium which you can punish them.

Like what's the next stop? Nerf 4-5 top tiers to the ground, and have a game of mid tiers with some high tiers? That's s boring (and lame).

If anything, let buffs continue and cut it out with nerfs. I know I complain all the time, but I'm tired of asking the 8 ball what's gonna happen every patch or if my competition's character will be irrelevant or mine.

Can we just play the game?

 

[Smooth Criminal]

The thing is while needles are strong and all, they have some interesting flaws which prevents true needle camping. If you noticed my matches at CEO (Or any Sheik in particular) you can only needle up to some point. Back when they weren't nerfed, with less cooldown, it was a different story, but they're actually punishable at some ranges. I was playing Mr R with my Diddy and I punished a lot of his needles. It's possible.

To add on to this, there are a lot of projectiles in this game that suffer from this same flaw. That's why zoning in this game isn't as strong as it was in Brawl.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Scarlet Jile]

My feeling is that if more than half of the cast has no answer to a move, it's problematic. In the case of needles, how many characters have an answer? Let's say it's punishable on block like @ TSM ZeRo says (it may very well be). Punishable by whom? If only 1 or 2 characters have the frame data necessary to answer a move in any capacity, then is it fair to say it's "punishable?"

Look dudes, this isn't Melee or Brawl. Telling someone just play X is no longer the correct ****ing answer. For the first time in 16 years, we have the opportunity to play an official version of Smash Bros where every single character can be viable. Yeah, I get it, you practiced some combos that you don't want to lose to nerfs. That's perfectly understandable.

But honestly, man, you gotta take one for the team sometimes. Team Smash 4, you know what I'm sayin? And like someone else said, she can be compensated for the loss in a way that keeps her high tier without invalidating so much of the rest of the cast.

 

[FullMoon]

The thing is while needles are strong and all, they have some interesting flaws which prevents true needle camping. If you noticed my matches at CEO (Or any Sheik in particular) you can only needle up to some point. Back when they weren't nerfed, with less cooldown, it was a different story, but they're actually punishable at some ranges (Though you can needle slower characters, like Luigi struggles to get in, but completely murders you once he does, for example). Also, I was playing Mr R with my Diddy and I punished a lot of his needles. It's possible and Diddy isn't exactly fast in the medium which you can punish them.

Like what's the next stop? Nerf 4-5 top tiers to the ground, and have a game of mid tiers with some high tiers? That's s boring (and lame).

If anything, let buffs continue and cut it out with nerfs. I know I complain all the time, but I'm tired of asking the 8 ball what's gonna happen every patch or if my competition's character will be irrelevant or mine.

Can we just play the game?

This patch didn't even have much in the way of nerfs, only Diddy got nerfed and Captain Falcon got a very, very insignificant nerf to his Up-Air. The rest was all buffs.

It's not like Nintendo is nerfing top tiers to the ground either, most of the perceived top tiers at the start of the game are still top tier here with the sole exception of Greninja (if he was considered top tier by most that is).

I don't know why you're making such a big deal about this. A balance of nerfs and buffs are necessary for a game to be properly balanced, if we buff everything then the game just becomes a jankfest.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Like all games with patches or constant new games released (Street fighter blazblue KoF etc.), the top players will move on to the next top tier anyways. Dunno why people complain about nerfs or buffs to their precious easy characters.
League, who cares if you like Veigar mid, you're on a team and required to be boring to play Viktor Ezreal etc. in order to win tournaments and win a few hundred thousand bucks.

B-b-but a decently fast character like diddy can punish needles! Bowser D3 DK Luigi etc. tho
People with bad frame data tho. Rest of Sheik's kit is stupid and safe anyways.

 

[Makorel]

If one character is a problem it's easier to say "nerf this character!" because then we're only dealing with that one character needing a nerf instead of however many characters might need buffs. I think at this point in time it's worth asking what characters can't deal with Sheik (or Rosalina or Sonic etc.) and what buffs those characters need so that they can deal with her.

 

[BiRdZ]

I feel as if that since so many characters are viable in this game and that there are patches, people are going to complain about X character being above Y character and either one gets buffed or nerfed. Every game has top tier characters and low tier characters. Not once have i seen a game where everyone is balanced equally. People complain about Shiek and say her needles need to be toned down. If that does happened then people will want f-air nerfed. Then what will she be left with. She has good frame data and mobility, but can't rack up damage as easily because F-air nerf, can't force approaches as easily, and everytime she has been nerfed they took away another kill option. I feel as if before we ask for nerfs, look at what's really is polarizing, and why it needs to be nerf.

 

[bc1910]

To be honest, "top tier" Greninja still had little to combat the major obstacle to his viability, which is Sheik. Less endlag on shurikens doesn't matter since they're still too slow to throw compared to needles and Sheik doesn't care about Hydro Pump when recovering. Pre-patch Usmash would be nice to deal with her hop game sometimes but that's it, and it would be a really risky way to deal with her hops. She'd still body him. She did at release as well but her meta wasn't developed at all obviously, whilst Greninja had extremely strong out-of-the-box base level tools that made it look like the MU was better than it was. And indeed made him look better than he was when the only problem was Hydro Pump.

Makes it even more of a kick in the teeth that he was overnerfed due to overhype and the game being new, but meh, it softens the blow a bit for me. I think Greninja would have dropped off in usage as Sheik rose anyway. Also his new Ftilt is one of the most important tools he's ever been given, and for what it's worth his current average frame data is the best it's ever been due to the Ftilt and Shadow Sneak buffs.

 

[Firefoxx]

The patches in this game have been pretty tame. Its been like 90% buffs and bug fixes, and many "nerfs" actually end up increasing the utility of the move.

This ain't NRS patching, where every month they decide to completely remake the game without any warning at all, and for that we should all be very thankful. Seriously, if you want to see what bad/unjustified patching really does to a community, just watch what's going on with MKX.

 

[Spinosaurus]

What characters have been "ruined" by the patches though? is pretty much the only one that comes to my mind and even then people are arguing that he shouldn't be completely dismissed yet given what people have learned what to do with him lately. I think the buffs and nerfs have been largely reasonable so far.

Not a direct nerf, but the removal of vectoring really screwed him over I believe. In contrast, Luigi benefits a lot.

 

[Ikes]

I feel as if that since so many characters are viable in this game and that there are patches, people are going to complain about X character being above Y character and either one gets buffed or nerfed. Every game has top tier characters and low tier characters. Not once have i seen a game where everyone is balanced equally. People complain about Shiek and say her needles need to be toned down. If that does happened then people will want f-air nerfed. Then what will she be left with. She has good frame data and mobility, but can't rack up damage as easily because F-air nerf, can't force approaches as easily, and everytime she has been nerfed they took away another kill option. I feel as if before we ask for nerfs, look at what's really is polarizing, and why it needs to be nerf.

but polarizing character balance can be avoided. a game will never have perfect balance but using that as an excuse to avoid an attempt in the first place is lazy and honestly stupid.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Vectoring removed buffed Yoshi a lot since all his kill moves were Vertical.

 

[hypersonicJD]

If you guys really want to get rid of Sonic's campy style. Let's do this:

Make Smash 4 Sonic: Project M Sonic.

Instead of Spin Charge, give him Sonic Wave from Sonic Battle.

And also give Sonic his Sonic Eagle as either Down Air or Forward Air.

That way people will stop complaning about the character because of his spin dash spam. And now he'll be able to have 2 meteor attacks, a proyectile and a follow-up from Spin Dash to Sonic Eagle. What do you think?

Don't take this seriously. I'm actually complaning about people just flat out hating on Sonic just because of his Spin Dash. When they are even more spamming characters.

Sonic players just suck balls at making the meta game of Sonic any better. They keep thinking that Spin Dash is the best move in the world. And it isn't. Sonic has good aerials that can be cancelled and be safe on shield. I actually use Sonic's speed to run past my oppopent. Then Forward Smash them. Or even Down Smash to catch a roll. Sonic has to be a really aggresive character. He has to go and rack up as much percent as he can's. But nope. Every other single Sonic main thinks that Sonic is a campy character than only needs Spin Dash to be good. And this isn't the case at all.

I would love people to stop complaining about Sonic because the way these tournament frauds use him (Spin dash into shield) isn't the way this character was designed to be. I have always been aggresive with Sonic and almost every single time I win my matches. Hell, I even won at some minor online tournaments. It's not that great of a feat. But at least a more aggresive Sonic is winning more matches than a stupid camping Sonic.

Sonic isn't meant to be campy. It's meant to be a really fast beater that can overwhelm his opponent with his amazing speed and attacks. But if you still want to argue. I already putted a new moveset for Sonic. That way you can complain about how broken my gameplay would be.

 

[Yikarur]

Greninja is still high tier. The nerfs are exaggerated. They just made Greninja a better character designwise.

 

[Vipermoon]

The thing is while needles are strong and all, they have some interesting flaws which prevents true needle camping. If you noticed my matches at CEO (Or any Sheik in particular) you can only needle up to some point. Back when they weren't nerfed, with less cooldown, it was a different story, but they're actually punishable at some ranges (Though you can needle slower characters, like Luigi struggles to get in, but completely murders you once he does, for example). Also, I was playing Mr R with my Diddy and I punished a lot of his needles. It's possible and Diddy isn't exactly fast in the medium which you can punish them.

Like what's the next stop? Nerf 4-5 top tiers to the ground, and have a game of mid tiers with some high tiers? That's s boring (and lame).

If anything, let buffs continue and cut it out with nerfs. I know I complain all the time, but I'm tired of asking the 8 ball what's gonna happen every patch or if my competition's character will be irrelevant or mine.

Can we just play the game?

How'd your Diddy do against Mr. R?

EVERYONE

Also, remember, vectoring is still in the game guys LMAO, it's just vertical vectoring is gone.

 

[Ulevo]

The thing is while needles are strong and all, they have some interesting flaws which prevents true needle camping. If you noticed my matches at CEO (Or any Sheik in particular) you can only needle up to some point. Back when they weren't nerfed, with less cooldown, it was a different story, but they're actually punishable at some ranges (Though you can needle slower characters, like Luigi struggles to get in, but completely murders you once he does, for example). Also, I was playing Mr R with my Diddy and I punished a lot of his needles. It's possible and Diddy isn't exactly fast in the medium which you can punish them.

Like what's the next stop? Nerf 4-5 top tiers to the ground, and have a game of mid tiers with some high tiers? That's s boring (and lame).

If anything, let buffs continue and cut it out with nerfs. I know I complain all the time, but I'm tired of asking the 8 ball what's gonna happen every patch or if my competition's character will be irrelevant or mine.

Can we just play the game?

Needle Storm was never nerfed.

 

[Mario766]

End lag of needles nerfed in 1.0.4

 

[Ulevo]

End lag of needles nerfed in 1.0.4

Never mind. The wikipedia page is incorrect, unfortunately.

http://smashboards.com/threads/3ds-community-patch-notes-v1-0-4-engine-changes-to-di.378404/

I stand corrected.