Character Competitive Impressions

[Mr. Johan]

Sonic was more than manageable in Brawl, and he's certainly manageable here. Just not be bad at reacting.

 

[Ffamran]

I'm curious: would making it so Spin Dash "stops" like Luigi Missile now if you hold it too long be a plausible "fix" or tweak to make Sonic less "cancerous"? Spin Charge already requires you to repeatedly tap the button, so there's already a physical commitment if you choose to "hold" it. Also would be nice if Ike and Luigi could cancel their Side Special like Sonic.

 

[TSM ZeRo]

Hi Smashboards!

To be honest I'm tired of nerfs. They just ruin people's efforts or characters and the fun of the game. Nintendo's focus should be to buff the low and mid tier characters so they can compete with the top tiers. Not just nerf top tiers, ruin people's mains, and make the meta be a bunch of nerfed and weak characters.

I personally think current patch is just fine. I don't agree with Diddy's 2nd nerf, but that's all.

 

[Mr. Johan]

Sonic was designed to be very similar to his buttons from Classic Sonic games.

Sonic could hold Spin Dash indefinitely in the classic games, and in a majority of the more current games as well. Making it stop charging after a specific time runs counter to that intentional design choice.

 

[Speed Boost]

if you think thats how is played optimally you dont know how the character works

I know that's how he works, that's whats makes him bad for the game

 

[NairWizard]

Personally, I don't understand how people think that Sonic is worse than Luigi in terms of fun factor/enjoyment.

Sonic camps you, OK, whatever. At least it's exciting to try to break into his zone.
Luigi forces you to camp him, by virtue of his risk:reward (an oppressive jab, huge grab reward, and a KO confirm off of a grab? and possibly b-air for a 14% damage KO move). There's nothing exciting about having to run away the whole match because Luigi's reward is so much higher than your own.

And it's not like Ganondorf against whom even if you die in 5 hits, you can also kill Ganon back in 5 hits by stringing hits together and then gimping him (which is something you can also do to Ness, another character with the general archetype), so the risk:reward is somewhat balanced. Luigi is not especially comboable, best you can do is call the n-air/Tornado and punish, and Luigi's recovery is definitely not bad except against certain characters like Sheik (Bouncing Fish). Normal characters have to worry about airdodge -> Tornado spikes. Remember, airdodge only has roughly 5 frames of vulnerability in this game, so it's extremely difficult to time a proper punish.

Literally his only weakness is mobility (which fireballs, a great initial dash, and a practically lagless dahsgrab do help to cover), and how do you exploit bad mobility when going in means that you take huge damage and get KO confirmed off of a grab? You camp.

So instead of Sonic camping everyone, it's everyone camping Luigi.

Luigi's definitely not broken when Sheik and Rosalina and other camp-heavy characters exist, but man, I think he's the worst character to watch and play against, by a significant margin. Luigi's design promotes camping (and not the Pacman kind of creative camping), even for characters who otherwise don't need to camp.

I wouldn't really say it's "cancerous" though (as an aside: I wish we'd stop using that word since cancer is an actual disease that many people suffer from). I just tune out whenever Luigi is on stream.


all due respect to Luigi players though; it's the character that's boring, not you guys

 

[Ulevo]

Hi Smashboards!

To be honest I'm tired of nerfs. They just ruin people's efforts or characters and the fun of the game. Nintendo's focus should be to buff the low and mid tier characters so they can compete with the top tiers. Not just nerf top tiers, ruin people's mains, and make the meta be a bunch of nerfed and weak characters.

I personally think current patch is just fine. I don't agree with Diddy's 2nd nerf, but that's all.

You believe Sheik is fine in her current state?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I dunno how exactly Link performs against Sonic but Samus gets utterly destroyed by him.

ZSS just has the right mix of frame data [slowish startup but low lag and solid duration] and hitbox size. It's an odd mixture that no other character really has to that extent and it just happens to pay off massively in this specific matchup. Yoshi is probably the character closest to that and I think he has an advantage against Sonic as well though it's closer. [I don't think Sonic loses to Fox like Sonic mains often claim. It used to be solidly in Sonic's favor before the bthrow nerf and feels pretty even now].

 

[TSM ZeRo]

You believe Sheik is fine in her current state?

She's been nerfed every single patch in very specific ways (F-Air, needles, combos, F-Tilt, back air, up air) and she's still solid. It's like, what else can they do? Ruin her entirely so nobody plays her? I feel like every patch is more like 'You can't do this anymore' than 'Now you have these extra options, figure it out!'

 

[BSP]

I dunno, man. Being able to "abandon ship," so to speak, in neutral is kinda...lame. Sonic doesn't toe-to-toe like those characters; he literally throws himself at you in hopes of getting a hit confirm and if he misses, he's out. It's frustrating to watch (admittedly, sometimes) and play against.

It's not that bad if you can control him somehow.

...

Anyway, despite how many mixups and mixup potential Sonic has, I find that when you're in his shoes, it's frustrating to execute because everything you do individually is unsafe. You have to hope to high heaven that the opponent doesn't guess what you're about to do next, or else you're most likely getting bodied.

He's still good, but I find him frustrating to play as. Not so much against.

 

[Ikes]

I personally don't but, in my experience, the match up can go downhill fast if Little Mac stays on top of Villager. Villager's main "OH GOD, GET OFF ME" moves are its jab, ftilt, and short hopped nair. Jab and ftilt don't hit your opponent very far away, even if they land and Little Mac has fantastic reach so even landing the attacks at low percentages can lead to punishes. There's also the fact that whiffing a shield grab with Villager against Little Mac is likely to lead into a hard punish so, even though it can put him in a very vulnerable position off stage, it's still pretty risky. Camping against Little Mac is pretty hard too because of how fast he runs and he can run under most fairs and bairs. Then there's the issue of the KO punch... Since Villager doesn't have close quarters options against Little Mac, it puts a ton of pressure on Villager if Little Mac gets close. Grab releases into the ground are especially precarious and you're practically forced to the air because all of Villager's stage options are likely to lead to a hard punish. Villager's rolls aren't great and Villager is one of the slowest characters in the game so trying to escape this way is predictable against Little Macs. It also takes 3-4 long distance fairs/bairs to knock Little Mac out of the KO punch so it forces Villager to go into super campy 64 mode to keep Little Mac from getting too close for comfort.

Off stage, Villager has plenty of tools to get the job done and the tables turn completely. Thanks to having the most reliable recovery in the game and Little Mac having the worst, there's very little risk in chasing Little Mac off stage. Even without leaving the stage, Villager can very easily force options against Little Mac by planting a tree or trying to fake out with a bowling ball to cover the ledge. When Little Mac is trying to get back to the stage, this is also the time where shield grabs aren't terrible in this matchup but fthrow doesn't send the opponent very far away so it boils down to who screws up first.

Overall, I think Villager has a slight advantage where Villager has enough defensive tools to get the job done but Little Mac practically forces Villager to be campy to begin with, probably more so than most of the cast. Villager can't annoy Little Mac to death like it can against most of the cast and Little Mac can gain the upper hand by being extremely patient and taking full advantages of any openings. If I had to do a percentage scale, I'd say 60-40 in Villager's favor.

you're underestimating Mac's tools in neutral

everything you said about him being in villager's face is right but it's even worse for villager than you think, and Mac can easily get in and out of his zone and punish campy play.

 

[Ulevo]

She's been nerfed every single patch in very specific ways (F-Air, needles, combos, F-Tilt, back air, up air) and she's still solid. It's like, what else can they do? Ruin her entirely so nobody plays her? I feel like every patch is more like 'You can't do this anymore' than 'Now you have these extra options, figure it out!'

The primary criticism I and I assume others have for Sheik is that her ground Needles cannot be blocked on reaction. You need to predict when they are thrown. This means that an otherwise melee dominant character gets to dictate when and where the neutral exchanges happen rather than have the general weakness a melee dominant character should have. Do you believe that nerfing this one aspect would be unacceptable?

 

[Gunla]

You believe Sheik is fine in her current state?

CEO might impact the current sentiment, actually, so I can see that "her current state" would be fine. I'd also note that nerfing characters with a major advantage. Sheik has been nerfed, but this patch just didn't touch her.

Zero was the only Sheik in top 8, but he wasn't a solo Sheik, either. A lot of people certainly will forget that outside of Top 8 was a pack of Sheik players. She's not becoming a character who dominates the Top 8 and basically requires one to actually play her and only her to win.

While I think Sheik could use maybe an adjustment (not thinking of anything in particular, but something that doesn't detrimentally damage her yet take away/mitigate something that's slightly extreme), this game is quite balanced. Can't really forget that.

 

[Zelder]

Please explain what you love about watching somebody camp with spin dash until they time someone out? It's disgusting that it even exists. **** Sonic and anyone who plays him like that. Yall don't deserve to have your names mentioned in the same sentence with these other top players.

I don't care much for Sonic either man but getting mad at someone for playing a character in the intended manner is silly.

 

[Speed Boost]

You believe Sheik is fine in her current state?

There is no character in the game right now that isn't balanced by another cast member or two. So, game game is balanced and no more nerfs should happen. That includes Sonic, who I've been ******** about and Luigi. I can not like Sonic and anyone who plays him and still think he shouldn't be changed. The same goes for Luigi. I don't really mind watching or playing against Luigi though.

I don't care much for Sonic either man but getting mad at someone for playing a character in the intended manner is silly.

Yeah, you are right. @ NickRiddle post got me a little heated when he said he liked watching Sonic. I'm alright now though.

 

[TSM ZeRo]

The primary criticism I and I assume others have for Sheik is that her ground Needles cannot be blocked on reaction. You need to predict when they are thrown. This means that an otherwise melee dominant character gets to dictate when and where the neutral exchanges happen rather than have the general weakness a melee dominant character should have. Do you believe that nerfing this one aspect would be unacceptable?

That's not true. Needless are punishable on reaction since the patch they added more cooldown, and they're only hard to punish when fully charged.

Also the closer you're to sheik the easier they're to punish.

 

[Ffamran]

Sonic was designed to be very similar to his buttons from Classic Sonic games.

Sonic could hold Spin Dash indefinitely in the classic games, and in a majority of the more current games as well. Making it stop charging after a specific time runs counter to that intentional design choice.

Why did the input have to change in Adventures... Spin Dash is "modern Sonic input" and Spin Charge is "classic Sonic input". Of course the modern one is hated by everyone.

Something, something... Wait, was Brawl Sonic hated for campy play too? What's the difference between Brawl Spin Dash and Smash 4 Spin Dash?

 

[Scarlet Jile]

I think Diddy's nerfs were perfect, honestly. The character is still incredibly viable, now its hitboxes just match the animations a lot more accurately. Sheik is such a polarizing character that I tend to agree with @ TSM ZeRo that its balance would be difficult to adjust without totally eliminating the reason people play her.

I don't think constant nerfs are the answer, but I do think Sheik is slightly stronger than where we want the sweet spot to be. Rosalina and customs-on pikachu probably also fall in this category. They don't need to be massacred, they just need some more modest integer changes.

Then the real work of continuing to buff up from the bottom of the list can begin.

 

[PUK]

One pseudo nerf sheik could have is about the way her hurtbox extend when she throws an aerial.

 

[Ffamran]

Wait a minute. Sheik's Needles were never changed in patch 1.0.8. >_>

 

[Ulevo]

That's not true. Needless are punishable on reaction since the patch they added more cooldown, and they're only hard to punish when fully charged.

Also the closer you're to sheik the easier they're to punish.

I am not talking about punishing Needles once you have successfully blocked them. I am talking about successfully blocking them. If you throw a single Needle in neutral, human reaction cannot block in time by the visual cue of Sheik throwing the Needle. I need to predict when you do it in order to block it successfully.

Also, I have never seen a nerf documented for Sheik's Needles. I would like to take a moment to address this to you, because you and other top players have a bad habit of saying things were changed post patch due to placebo and nocebo rather than referring to documented and confirmed changes.

If someone can prove to me Sheiks Needles were actually changed, I will admit I was wrong.

 

[Firefoxx]

She's been nerfed every single patch in very specific ways (F-Air, needles, combos, F-Tilt, back air, up air) and she's still solid. It's like, what else can they do? Ruin her entirely so nobody plays her? I feel like every patch is more like 'You can't do this anymore' than 'Now you have these extra options, figure it out!'

They've never touched her f-tilt and have actually given her more combo options by decreasing the damage on d-tilt (1.0.6) and I'm pretty sure fair chains (to the degree we see today) were only possible thanks to the damage reduction in 1.0.4

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Neither Diddy nor Sheik are boring to watch at top level. I agree Luigi is pretty braindead but Sonic ain't that much better.

Honestly, Sonic's character design is quite cancerous. I don't really see why that's even up for discussion.

That's the the lovely thing about opinions when it comes to their personal entertainment: nobody is wrong.

To me, Diddy and Sheik are boring. I tune out a fair bit when they're on screen. Sonic? I'm more engaged.

Again, Sonic's character design is not cancerous. (Also, that is one of the stupidest sayings that the internet has when it comes to describing things they don't like. Hate it when Hearthstone plays start flinging it out as well. Save it for things that are actually cancer... which is cancer. And nothing else.) Its simply different and people don't like different.

He's fairly safe... when he's not going for the kill. The moment he has to go for the kill (particularly now with the Bthrow nerf), and the opponent knows he has to go for a kill now, the dynamics shift a lot. A large portion of his mix ups no longer matter nearly as much: they don't lead to a kill. He's just adding on to the opponent's rage which means he's more in danger of dying himself. He can't use Spin Dash to set up Fsmash or Usmash really, the only kill move he can go for out of Spin Dash are Bair and Uair. That means either he has to stick to the ground a lot more (fishing for a grab or smash), or you know exactly what he's going to be fishing for (spin dash to aerial) and therefor know how to work around it.

People also aren't very good at punishing his escapes even though they should be. Yes he can spin dash up out and away, but then he's in the air above you, you're on the ground, and you know the area he has to land in. He's not Brawl Wario, he can't juke you out easily. Move towards where he's going to land and either punish, or set yourself up to limit his options upon landing. Yes he can also spring instead, that just further limits his options. If he doesn't Dair quickly, he's going to lose that option as it will have landing lag, so you know within a second if that option is going to be used or not. If its used you'll see the animation start up, move into position to cover his options once his hits the ground. If he's not using that option, he's in a similar situation as to if he had spin dashed above you, but without the ability to spring for more options. He again has limited options, you can easily cover most if not all of them depending on who you're using.

If he's spin dashing on the ground? The moment he starts moving forwards, hold shield. You've limited his options. If he goes for a grab, he has to shield cancel it which is a tell. Really if you wait and then shield once he moves forwards, he can only shield cancel, cancel the spin dash early, or jump once he's on you. Or if you're somebody with a great fast jab just hold that down to cover even more options leaving him with basically cancelling early and nothing else.

There's a lot of plays and counter plays to Sonics various options within options, which is what makes it interesting to me. He has nothing like Sheik's needles, or Diddy when he has a banana in hand and is in Monkey Flip range. Everything he does actually has risk to it against every single character, even if the opponent doesn't seem to realize it or know how to capitalize on it. Being able to think fast enough to mentally go through Sonic's options and the opponent's options rapidly is what makes watching Sonic match ups fascinating to me (and also what allows me to find the Sonic MU fun to play). The only downside to Sonics to me, are that they rely too much on Spin Dash and don't know how to mix in his running game options well. That was something I did pick up back in Brawl when Espy beat up on me, and its really important to Sonic in order to be good. The only reason why they haven't been forced to do that in SSB4 is because people are just taking the easy way out, calling him "cancer" and refusing to sit down and think things through. Then in turn they get a nearly free ride to the top 32 in nationals and everybody complains about them being braindead when really its their competition allowing them to be braindead.

The only thing that could be called "cancer" in SSB4 if you're going to insist on using that dumb term, are Sheik's needles. Too fast to reliably reflect, they don't really clank with anything, if you shield she gets enough time to charge them back up. There's no real counter play to them unless you can duck under them, which is a rather limited list.

 

[Fatmanonice]

you're underestimating Mac's tools in neutral

everything you said about him being in villager's face is right but it's even worse for villager than you think, and Mac can easily get in and out of his zone and punish campy play.

But that's the thing, Villager doesn't have to exclusively play campy against Little Mac. Yes, being overly defensive in this matchup can heavily back fire but Villager can also play a good game of hit and run too. I think they clash when they're both aggressive. Villager beats Little Mac if Little Mac plays defensively but loses on the stage if Little Mac plays offensively against their defensiveness. Villager's fairly versatile so it's not like Samus or Dedede where you get BTFO if your defensive options fail. This along with Villager's dominance off stage makes me hard to believe that the matchup up is in Little Mac's favor or even neutral. In the end, I think Villager beats him out by a small margin.

 

[David Viran]

I am not talking about punishing Needles once you have successfully blocked them. I am talking about successfully blocking them. If you throw a single Needle in neutral, human reaction cannot block in time by the visual cue of Sheik throwing the Needle. I need to predict when you do it in order to block it successfully.

Also, I have never seen a nerf documented for Sheik's Needles. I would like to take a moment to address this to you, because you and other top players have a bad habit of saying things were changed post patch due to placebo and nocebo rather than referring to documented and confirmed changes.

If someone can prove to me Sheiks Needles were actually changed, I will admit I was wrong.

In the 1.0.4 update needles got more cool down I'm pretty sure.

 

[Deleted member]

I have to agree with @ TSM ZeRo regarding patches: What can you even do to nerf Sheik at this point without making her drop a couple tiers? She already can struggle to net kills, her needles are great but one wrong nerf to that could make the move useless or just have a little bit more limited use while still accomplishing the same thing, and a nerf to her combo game would make it so she couldn't kill you since her damage output is incredibly low without combos, coupled with a lack of kill options. If you nerfed bouncing fish then she has one of, if not her best killing option taken away.

Buffing characters is the way to go. As a Greninja main, I felt great when the most recent patch buffed his Ftilt. Instead of buffing options for the neutral Greninja already had like Fair or Shurikens, Greninja got a new, safe poking tool. The patch gave Greninja a buff to a worthless move and made it a pretty good option, and I'd like to see more of that in the future for other characters instead of taking away these options.

 

[NickRiddle]

Please explain what you love about watching somebody camp with spin dash until they time someone out? It's disgusting that it even exists. **** Sonic and anyone who plays him like that. Yall don't deserve to have your names mentioned in the same sentence with these other top players.

I enjoy lame play, and Sonic is great at it.
Don't get mad at Sonic mains that everybody is terrible against one move, you guys should just get better.

 

[Zelder]

Why did the input have to change in Adventures... Spin Dash is "modern Sonic input" and Spin Charge is "classic Sonic input". Of course the modern one is hated by everyone.

Something, something... Wait, was Brawl Sonic hated for campy play too? What's the difference between Brawl Spin Dash and Smash 4 Spin Dash?

Smash 4's Spin Dash is attached to a much better character.

 

[Ikes]

I have to agree with @ TSM ZeRo regarding patches: What can you even do to nerf Sheik at this point without making her drop a couple tiers? She already can struggle to net kills, her needles are great but one wrong nerf to that could make the move useless or just have a little bit more limited use while still accomplishing the same thing, and a nerf to her combo game would make it so she couldn't kill you since her damage output is incredibly low without combos, coupled with a lack of kill options. If you nerfed bouncing fish then she has one of, if not her best killing option taken away.

Buffing characters is the way to go. As a Greninja main, I felt great when the most recent patch buffed his Ftilt. Instead of buffing options for the neutral Greninja already had like Fair or Shurikens, Greninja got a new, safe poking tool. The patch gave Greninja a buff to a worthless move and made it a pretty good option, and I'd like to see more of that in the future for other characters instead of taking away these options.

a buff and a nerf

get rid of the grenade and bring back the chain

then stack more endlag on needles and make them charge one less

B)

 

[Scarlet Jile]

I have to agree with @ TSM ZeRo regarding patches: What can you even do to nerf Sheik at this point without making her drop a couple tiers? She already can struggle to net kills, her needles are great but one wrong nerf to that could make the move useless or just have a little bit more limited use while still accomplishing the same thing, and a nerf to her combo game would make it so she couldn't kill you since her damage output is incredibly low without combos, coupled with a lack of kill options. If you nerfed bouncing fish then she has one of, if not her best killing option taken away.

Buffing characters is the way to go. As a Greninja main, I felt great when the most recent patch buffed his Ftilt. Instead of buffing options for the neutral Greninja already had like Fair or Shurikens, Greninja got a new, safe poking tool. The patch gave Greninja a buff to a worthless move and made it a pretty good option, and I'd like to see more of that in the future for other characters instead of taking away these options.

Why does it make more sense to you to buff every single character in the game (some substantially) than it does to make very modest changes to 1 or 2 characters so that they aren't untouchable by half of the cast?

I mean, just imagine the changes you would have to make to Ganondorf in order to make him a legitimate threat to Sheik (or Rosalina for that matter!). Now imagine any other character trying to fight that Ganondorf.

 

[Ulevo]

In the 1.0.4 update needles got more cool down I'm pretty sure.

http://www.ssbwiki.com/List_of_updates_(SSB4-3DS)/1.0.4_changelog

EDIT: Wiki is wrong.

Here is the issue I have with Sheik.

Characters are generally well designed if they have a proper set of tools to excel at a given style while also having a weakness or subset of weaknesses to exploit by the opponent. This is good design. Luigi, for all the rewards he has, has poor mobility and a poor recovery. Rosalina, for all the frustrating aspects to her character, is light, large, and becomes significantly worse when Luma is executed. The balance amongst many of the high and top tiers is thanks to the equilibrium.

Where is Sheik's flaw? The general consensus is that she has problems killing, but as CEO demonstrated, that is not true. Sheik has the mobility and tools to put players in to 50/50's where if she guesses right she takes a stock and if she guesses wrong she remains unpunished due to her excellent recovery and frame data.

I do not have a problem with Sheik as is except for the fact that she can camp the neutral game nearly better than any other character because of nature of grounded Needle Storm. A character that dominant in close quarter exchanges and rush down should not be given a powerful, unreactionable projectile tool. From a design point of view, that is akin to making Luma invulnerable, giving Mario kill confirms, or making Pikachu a heavy weight. You're removing core weaknesses from the picture.

 

[Balgorxz]

the second diddy patch fixed his jab tho and remove the rising uair hitbox, that made diddy a better designed character since you have to use mix your moves more instead of spamming the same move over and over again.
sometimes nerfs make characters better so I don't think people should take them as something terrible.

well except the first greninja nerfs those were awful, sakurai will need at least 2 more patches to fix what he ****ed up there.

http://www.ssbwiki.com/List_of_updates_(SSB4-3DS)/1.0.4_changelog

Here is the issue I have with Sheik.

Characters are generally well designed if they have a proper set of tools to excel at a given style while also having a weakness or subset of weaknesses to exploit by the opponent. This is good design. Luigi, for all the rewards he has, has poor mobility and a poor recovery. Rosalina, for all the frustrating aspects to her character, becomes significantly worse when Luma is executed. The balance amongst many of the high and top tiers is thanks to the equilibrium.

Where is Sheik's flaw? The general consensus is that she has problems killing, but as CEO demonstrated, that is not true. Sheik has the mobility and tools to put players in to 50/50's where if she guesses right she takes a stock and if she guesses wrong she remains unpunished due to her excellent recovery and frame data.

I do not have a problem with Sheik as is except for the fact that she can camp the neutral game nearly better than any other character because of nature of grounded Needle Storm. A character that dominant in close quarter exchanges and rush down should not be given a powerful, unreactionable projectile tool. From a design point of view, that is akin to making Luma invulnerable, giving Mario kill confirms, or making Pikachu a heavy weight. You're removing core weaknesses from the picture.

I'll have to agree with you there, sheik would be completely fine If she couldn't camp with needles, I think keeping needles as a combo tool is a must so increasing endlag only on the ground version would be a good way to nerf sheik without changing her playstyle at all.
needle camp needs to go

 

[Mr. Johan]

Something, something... Wait, was Brawl Sonic hated for campy play too? What's the difference between Brawl Spin Dash and Smash 4 Spin Dash?

Kinda. People just hated Olimar, Meta Knight, Falco, Ice Climbers, and Wario campy play much more.

Smash 4 Spin Dash sacrificed general safety for a bit more speed. Or at least the aerial spin charge did. In Brawl aerial spin charge could be shield canceled, leading to grabs when the spin made contact with a shield. The Side B hop is much faster and steeper than it was before too.

With what Charge lost and what Dash gained, I honestly don't see a reason to use Spin Charge anymore when Dash does everything better other than get to max speed and damage faster.

 

[Speed Boost]

I enjoy lame play, and Sonic is great at it.
Don't get mad at Sonic mains that everybody is terrible against one move, you guys should just get better.

It's not about being able to beat it. Do you want to see Smash grow so you can play for bigger prizes and make a living doing what you love? Characters like Sonic are not going to help that happen. When the whole chat at CEO is ******** about Sonic and even the commentators are cracking jokes it's not good for growing the game. Melee doesn't have these problems and if smash is every going to unify the current game will have to be just as fun to watch as Melee.

 

[Big-Cat]

Hi Smashboards!

To be honest I'm tired of nerfs. They just ruin people's efforts or characters and the fun of the game. Nintendo's focus should be to buff the low and mid tier characters so they can compete with the top tiers. Not just nerf top tiers, ruin people's mains, and make the meta be a bunch of nerfed and weak characters.

I personally think current patch is just fine. I don't agree with Diddy's 2nd nerf, but that's all.

I disagree. That focus would just make more and more cheesy characters where, at worst, only a few tools are used. That's where needing top tiers can be necessary - to make other tools valid.

 

[Nocally]

Let´s just give Sheik her Brawl needles, problem solved right?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

That's not true. Needless are punishable on reaction since the patch they added more cooldown, and they're only hard to punish when fully charged.

Sheik's needles have not been changd in the last patch. Neither has been any of her other moves.

I enjoy lame play, and Sonic is great at it.
Don't get mad at Sonic mains that everybody is terrible against one move, you guys should just get better.

To be fair there's quite a couple of characters who straight up have no viable option against that one move.

 

[Smog Frog]

the damage on those is wayyyyyyyyyy WAYYYYYYY too much. 18% on such a safe move is a dumb idea.

 

[Ffamran]

Kinda. People just hated Olimar, Meta Knight, Falco, Ice Climbers, and Wario campy play much more.

Smash 4 Spin Dash sacrificed general safety for a bit more speed. Or at least the aerial spin charge did. In Brawl aerial spin charge could be shield canceled, leading to grabs when the spin made contact with a shield. The Side B hop is much faster and steeper than it was before too.

With what Charge lost and what Dash gained, I honestly don't see a reason to use Spin Charge anymore when Dash does everything better other than get to max speed and damage faster.

Hmm... They could tweak it so that Spin Charge is another move to use... Spin Dash could do less damage or something while being fast and it hits multiple times?, but it passes through shields not as easily. Spin Charge could be given more power, maybe kill (at later percents), hit once?, and perhaps pass through shields a bit better than Spin Dash. Both could combo, but Spin Dash is more vertical and Charge more horizontal.

I don't know - I don't play Sonic -, but they should make Spin Charge a more useful move in Sonic's kit if Spin Dash really is that versatile and powerful.

 

[Ulevo]

I'll have to agree with you there, sheik would be completely fine If she couldn't camp with needles, I think keeping needles as a combo tool is a must so increasing endlag only on the ground version would be a good way to nerf sheik without changing her playstyle at all.
needle camp needs to go

This is really all I am suggesting. Though I would prefer an increase on grounded Needle start up.