Character Competitive Impressions

[Spinosaurus]

Rosalina still has the tools to play keepaway and circle camp for 12 seconds while waiting for luma to return.

And this why we should figure out who can deny her that. (Or characters that benefit from the camping more than she does.)

EDIT: well ninja'd

 

[Antonykun]

hmmm can i talk about how I'm starting to feel Villager might be weaker than most people make her out to be?
all her good tools in neutral are from aerials but sh is so floaty and has really poor air speed
This means she is very vulnerable to anyone to just about anyone with good groundspeed and ground buttons so

off the top of my head
look how many characters make villager uncomfortable with her basic gameplan that's not even mention the please hit me up b

 

[Project Quarantine]

I don't even camp a lot. The matchup just blows. I co-main and now. Been working on my all CEO. No longer going to play if I can help it. wins or goes even with the rest of the cast as a whole other then , which is like 40-60.

Being a Bowser Jr. Main, I believe that (while being slaughtered by almost all high tiers) he goes even with or slightly beats ZSS. In short, her height, lack of approach options, gimpability and poor aerial options when in disadvantaged stance are ideal for bowser jr play.

Tidbit: You can also counterpick him to avoid the Sonic ditto partially because Clown Kart beats Spindash unless sonic hops at the correct time.

 

[Speed Boost]

Yes, "16 frame grab" please understand is the eternal truth.

Anyway. Nairo's neutral game was limited by ZeRo. Not so much because that's the match up, but because of mindset.
ZSS isn't limited to paralyzer, down smash and nair; or relying on people not shielding them/running into them. Either as to get started or to handle neutral.
ZeRo handed out free damage with needles much like I've seen saying Sheik does for a long time ($5 bet ZeRo watched recent Rain Sheik vs Choco ZSS). Not match up fault more so than not realising you're putting yourself in that position constantly.

Nairo wasn't comfortable using flip jump's utility. Nairo wasn't trying to space back airs on shield or poke with well spaced tilts. His play seemed to primarily be focused on the fact ZeRo was shielding, rather than stage positioning and pressure. Yes, this is the hardest part of playing ZSS at high level in even or near even match ups. But is it something a top player can't overcome? Hell no; sorry. I don't want to step into theory-world too much but know very well that this isn't easily replicable nor have you seen anything that every ZSS player is dealing with if they're a top player in their region.

ZSS needs those limits to not be a completely bull **** character. If you look at straight numbers you're going to wonder why people play Sheik at all until you look at the grab.

He was spacing NAir all over his shield to the point it looked like a M&M at times. The fact that Zero was that effective at shielding doesn't mean Nairo wasn't spacing moves trying to catch shield drops. Zero just played magnificently, and because of that we saw ZSS's weakness in flashing lights.

Zero just dared Nario to grab and shielded most everything else. He took away all his grab confirm options. Maybe your right and this isn't indicitive of the MU in general. Maybe no one else could execute the strategy to that level, but Zero certainly made it look like a bad MU.

 

[thehard]

Good players should be optimizing their Luma-disposing strategies.

They should also learn to not get flustered when Rosa plays evasive in those 12.55 seconds, and limit her movement. Easier said than done though!

 

[Shaya]

He was spacing NAir all over his shield to the point it looked like a M&M at times. The fact that Zero was that effective at shielding doesn't mean Nairo wasn't spacing moves trying to catch shield drops. Zero just played magnificently, and because of that we saw ZSS's weakness in flashing lights.

Zero just dared Nario to grab and shielded most everything else. He took away all his grab confirm options. Maybe your right and this isn't indicitive of the MU in general. Maybe no one else could execute the strategy to that level, but Zero certainly made it look like a bad MU.

Moves like ftilt, down tilt, bair and zair are all good for poking through depleted shields (and are all prone to follow ups). Nair not so much (up and forward angling of shield should basically always cover it).

 

[Speed Boost]

Moves like ftilt, down tilt, bair and zair are all good for poking through depleted shields (and are all prone to follow ups). Nair not so much (up and forward angling of shield should basically always cover it).

Those moves also don't lead to many followup and even fewer combos. So, I understand why he mostly used Nair. He did throw in the occasion FTilt or Zair though. It's easy to second guess these things after the fact but Zero is undefeated in Smash 4 for a reason. His defense being god like is what separates him from a host of other amazing players.

 

[DanGR]

I can explain it in 3 sentences.

Rosalina is still a viable character with very strong moves and disjoints without Luma. Luma is not a necessity of character but rather a luxury, and when Luma is gone, Rosalina still has the tools to play keepaway and circle camp for 12 seconds while waiting for luma to return. Having to fight a character who is Exceptional with a puppet character and still strong even when you put in the time to remove the puppet is aggravating at best and infuriating at worst.

If "strong" means no combo game, no safe pokes, no offensive pressure, low damage output, and significantly less kill power, then yeah I guess she's pretty strong without Luma.

 

[TriTails]

If "strong" means no combo game, no safe pokes, no offensive pressure, low damage output, and significantly less kill power, then yeah I guess she's pretty strong without Luma.

Lol U-air juggles.

Aside from that, yeah. She kinda got nothing.

Reading this immediately hold me back from supporting an idea to nerf Rosalina. Which is basically make her Luma has more HP but can't respawn for that stock. But... yeah. I forgot that Luma can take knockback.

Tbh Rosalina's saving grace is mostly Luma alone. Lots of characters have advantage over her when Luma is gone and suddenly turn into jokes when Luma returns (Maybe I'm exaggerating, but oh well).

 

[Ikes]

If "strong" means no combo game, no safe pokes, no offensive pressure, low damage output, and significantly less kill power, then yeah I guess she's pretty strong without Luma.

dthrow still combos into uair and she can keep away with her aerials which are almost all disjointed and powerful.

 

[Lavani]

dthrow still combos into uair and she can keep away with her aerials which are almost all disjointed and powerful.

Rosalina only gets followups off dthrow with awful/no DI and SoRo's uair is too slow to combo after uthrow.

 

[Makorel]

Is there any character worse than Rosalina by herself?

 

[A_Kae]

Is there any character worse than Rosalina by herself?

Olimar without Pikmin?

 

[NairWizard]

Being a Bowser Jr. Main, I believe that (while being slaughtered by almost all high tiers) he goes even with or slightly beats ZSS. In short, her height, lack of approach options, gimpability and poor aerial options when in disadvantaged stance are ideal for bowser jr play.

Tidbit: You can also counterpick him to avoid the Sonic ditto partially because Clown Kart beats Spindash unless sonic hops at the correct time.

I think that Joe meant the other Roy.

You know, the one from Fire Emb--

welp

 

[Indigo Jeans]

without luma rosalina's aerials basically become x10 worse. Nair has terrible coverage, Uair lacks the setup hit, Dair loses out on significant KO power (though it does become a lil easier to setup up followups on missed stage bounce techs), Bair loses out on a LOT of range, and Fair is just... its Fair idk

Smashes are more or less unaffected save for Fsmash

yeah no solo rosalina isnt as good as people make out with her to be

 

[Ikes]

Rosalina only gets followups off dthrow with awful/no DI and SoRo's uair is too slow to combo after uthrow.

uair still has a big lingering hitbox so she can still follow DI pretty effectively

without luma rosalina's aerials basically become x10 worse. Nair has terrible coverage, Uair lacks the setup hit, Dair loses out on significant KO power (though it does become a lil easier to setup up followups on missed stage bounce techs), Bair loses out on a LOT of range, and Fair is just... its Fair idk

Smashes are more or less unaffected save for Fsmash

yeah no solo rosalina isnt as good as people make out with her to be

the problem is that she's still good. She's usably good and has the tools to circle camp till she gets Luma back, and I've seen Rosas still net KOs without Luma. Rosa should be gimped without Luma, not have Luma as an added benefit to an already mid/upper mid tier character.

 

[extrasensory]

Rosa should be gimped without Luma, not have Luma as an added benefit to an already mid/upper mid tier character.

i'd be interested to see what other characters fit into your qualifications for mid tier...

 

[Jaxas]

The issue with Rosalina isn't that she's still a good character without Luma, it's that she's an alright enough character that while using Smash 4's global defensive options she can relatively easily avoid the opponent for the 12 seconds it takes for it to Respawn.

People need to focus on continuously removing Luma, rather than waiting for it to respawn and be useful before killing it. Unfortunately not all characters are fast enough to stay on Rosalina all the time, of course, but that's part of what makes her so great.

 

[TriTails]

Rosalina doesn't even need to fight by herself. All she need to do is just to use her above-average rolls and dashing speed and back throws whoever tries to follow her while stalling for 13 seconds.

13 seconds sure still seems short for her (IDK what makes them make it 8 seconds in the first place), but IDK how much increasing it will impact Rosalina. I mean, her rolls. 'Nuff said.

 

[Ikes]

The issue with Rosalina isn't that she's still a good character without Luma, it's that she's an alright enough character that while using Smash 4's global defensive options she can relatively easily avoid the opponent for the 12 seconds it takes for it to Respawn.

People need to focus on continuously removing Luma, rather than waiting for it to respawn and be useful before killing it. Unfortunately not all characters are fast enough to stay on Rosalina all the time, of course, but that's part of what makes her so great.

honestly a good enough nerf would be that she has to have luma to be able to recover à la Ice Climbers. Also increasing the time she has before Luma respawns alongside this would be good.

 

[Jaxas]

honestly a good enough nerf would be that she has to have luma to be able to recover à la Ice Climbers. Also increasing the time she has before Luma respawns alongside this would be good.

If it were up to me, I'd reduce the invulnerability on her rolls/spotdodge/airdodge without Luma.
Seems good to me™, and doesn't involve changing mobility specs/etc, which Nintendo seems pretty against doing so far.

 

[Luco]

Biased or... the most knowledgable?
Actually now that I think about it most of the stuff lucas can do, Ness can do. Ness + Lucas would be a sick team.

If people actually think that way about my posts/me, well I'd be flattered.

I feel like nintendo thinks that tether grabs are good and pac mans assets are easy to counter and they overall underestimate or severely overestimate the tools they give certain characters. I feel like the only characters theyve managed to reach near-perfect balance with are characters like Donkey Kong

There's an in-game tip that talks about Rosaluma using GP to gimp Ness. They've designed some characters with weaknesses that end up in top tier.


I know people complain about this and how it's "Rosalina's gimmick" but I feel like a lot of the time people don't followup on Rosalina in advantage because Luma is there to stop them. SO many times I've seen top players get a grab and throw Rosa only to sit in shield as Luma immediately attacks them should they try to followup. It makes it so hard to rack up damage on Rosa, which might be a nice thing to tweak with.

On the other hand, I would be okay if Rosa more or less stayed as strong as she is, as infuriating as that can be. Tbh the only character I REALLY want a nerf on is Sheik, and even then it would only be tweaking needles and/or Fair and possibly even giving her back killing Bair to compensate so that she doesn't single-handedly invalidate half the cast in neutral. The rest I really can live with.

 

[Ghostbone]

Is there any character worse than Rosalina by herself?

Zelda

 

[Ikes]

Is there any character worse than Rosalina by herself?

several, easily

I'd even argue shes better than robin without Luma but i might get **** flung at me for that one.

 

[Funkermonster]

hmmm can i talk about how I'm starting to feel Villager might be weaker than most people make her out to be?
all her good tools in neutral are from aerials but sh is so floaty and has really poor air speed
This means she is very vulnerable to anyone to just about anyone with good groundspeed and ground buttons so

off the top of my head
look how many characters make villager uncomfortable with her basic gameplan that's not even mention the please hit me up b

Wait.... you think Little Mac wins against Villager? Just curious, but can you elaborate on why?

 

[PK Gaming]

several, easily

I'd even argue shes better than robin without Luma but i might get **** flung at me for that one.

Doubt it. Robin is most certainly one of the worst characters in the game, but Rosalina default kit won't take her very far in a match.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

The attitude towards Rosalina and the blatant stupidity against her options is because a lot of people seem to complain more than actually playing the game and figuring out what to do for the character.

Disjoints and Super Armor can screw over Luma pretty hard if you're careful.

 

[Kofu]

Luma protects Rosalina from a lot of damage and kill setups. I don't think Rosalina's base kit is inherently bad but it's not enough to cover her large frame and low weight all by itself. Luma's hitboxes feel like they were literally designed to cover Rosalina's blind spots in a lot of cases.

The only things about Luma that really bother me are its range (occasionally) and often fraudulent base knockback values (I don't know enough about Smash design to say but those may be necessary to compensate for its low damage output).

What Luma does is allow Rosalina to play a very solid defensive game that is also threatening offensively when used right. I'm not really a fan of the way Luma snuffs a lot of throw combos, but one possible workaround is to deliberately attack Luma instead.

 

[Ikes]

The attitude towards Rosalina and the blatant stupidity against her options is because a lot of people seem to complain more than actually playing the game and figuring out what to do for the character.

Disjoints and Super Armor can screw over Luma pretty hard if you're careful.

Little mac confirmed hard counter to rosalina

actually now i want to know about this matchup

 

[Tinkerer]

The thing that Rosalina has that Ice Climbers (pretty much her equivalent in the past) never had is that Luma always hovers in front of Rosalina, which just creates a constant, stronger Hylian Shield at almost all times. That makes it close to impossible to approach if you're a projectile-based character or a slow big target who can't just quick hit Rosa behind it. Rosalina can obviously be beaten, especially by fast disjoints, but most of the disjoint characters in the game just aren't very good characters to start with. The easiest characters to beat her with, the rushdowns, are pretty damn strong as they are already. She becomes a hard counter to a lot of the cast and a fairly easy target to a small portion of it, and that's a bad place to be in.

 

[Kofu]

hmmm can i talk about how I'm starting to feel Villager might be weaker than most people make her out to be?
all her good tools in neutral are from aerials but sh is so floaty and has really poor air speed
This means she is very vulnerable to anyone to just about anyone with good groundspeed and ground buttons so

off the top of my head
look how many characters make villager uncomfortable with her basic gameplan that's not even mention the please hit me up b

I mostly agree with this list, but it's worth noting that I feel that the Pits are an issue more from their disjoints and reflectors than their ground game.

 

[bc1910]

Rosalina is too good at defending herself without Luma. She is not punished enough for losing her puppet. I have said this from day 1.

However, she is not an offensive threat without Luma. If you can keep forcing her into Luma-less situations, you should beat her. SoRo is good at defence to the point of unbalance, but she cannot defend herself forever if she cannot kill you, which she shouldn't be doing without Luma as long as you don't get hit by Usmash (especially with her jab nerf).

A few characters can force her into Luma-less situations more often than you would think and this is where the weakness in fighting her comes from.

 

[TriTails]

Doubt it. Robin is most certainly one of the worst characters in the game, but Rosalina default kit won't take her very far in a match.

It's kinda odd to compare Solosalina (Lol) to other characters. I mean, Zelda and Sheik are both lacking a Down-B in Melee and Brawl, sure. But Solosalina is lacking two specials (Unless you count the windbox on Luma Call a thing).

What Luma does is allow Rosalina to play a very solid defensive game that is also threatening offensively when used right. I'm not really a fan of the way Luma snuffs a lot of throw combos, but one possible workaround is to deliberately attack Luma instead.

Problem: Luma is not a harmless kitten. It's as cute as a hamster outside yet it's a gorilla inside.

That makes it close to impossible to approach if you're a projectile-based character or a slow big target who can't just quick hit Rosa behind it.

Wait. I'm pretty sure Samus' Charge shot or Mewtwo's Shadow Ball can one-shot Luma.

Rosalina is too good at defending herself without Luma. She is not punished enough for losing her puppet. I have said this from day 1

I've been saying this too. I personally think she'd be better off as her own character because she is capable enough of defending herself. Though, she probably end up in somewhere no higher than high tier.

However, she is not an offensive threat without Luma. If you can keep forcing her into Luma-less situations, you should beat her. SoRo is good at defence to the point of unbalance, but she cannot defend herself forever if she cannot kill you, which she shouldn't be doing without Luma as long as you don't get hit by Usmash (especially with her jab nerf)

U-smash is like about as big as Luigi's F-air. And she has REALLY fast D-smash that can keep people out. Oh and also, U-air exist.

A few characters can force her into Luma-less situations more often than you would think and this is where the weakness in fighting her comes from.

Uh... Elaborate?

 

[Chuva]

Zelda

The only practical thing Solo Rosa has over Zelda is her ground mobility and Grav Pull for certain matchups. You guys take the whole "Zelda is trash" concept too far sometimes.

 

[bc1910]

Any high BKB move will separate them, they and their setups are often underutilised when it comes to splitting the duo.

Greninja can do things like dashgrab > buffer Fthrow, then due to Fthrow's low ending lag, turnaround jabx3 Luma while Rosa is in hitstun. Rosa is too slow to get back to Luma in time after being thrown. Other characters with good dashgrabs and low endlag, high BKB throws can do this.

There are issues with this method, depending on how Luma's attacks are buffered he can break your grab or sometimes start attacking as you throw Rosa (Luma won't hit you but he will follow Rosalina), but it's pretty successful most of the time. For example if you grab Rosalina during the end lag of one of Luma's attacks, Luma cannot attack again while Rosa is thrown.

 

[Ghostbone]

The only practical thing Solo Rosa has over Zelda is her ground mobility and Grav Pull for certain matchups. You guys take the whole "Zelda is trash" concept too far sometimes.

Rosalina sans luma still has a better jab, grab and dash attack (due to actually having mobility) that allows her to at least be threatening. She can pressure people off-stage more than zelda with down air and back air, can juggle people better with up-air, and has a more reliable kill option in up-smash.

Zelda is actually an awful character that can't compete, rosalina sans luma still has basic options that work, they're just way undertuned.

 

[PUK]

Rosalina sans luma still has a better jab, grab and dash attack (due to actually having mobility) that allows her to at least be threatening. She can pressure people off-stage more than zelda with down air and back air, can juggle people better with up-air, and has a more reliable kill option in up-smash.

Zelda is actually an awful character that can't compete, rosalina sans luma still has basic options that work, they're just way undertuned.

Usmash is not a reliable kill option though. You're overrating zerolina rather than underrating zelda. Let's imagine a fight where rosalina does't have her luma. Suddenly she's a big floaty target, with low kill power, low mobility, blind spots, one special to use in combat situation, poor edgeguard etc...
Does she has one MU she wins without Luma? No. Suddenly all her MU are 6:4 at best, something even zelda can't claim.

 

[TriTails]

Usmash is not a reliable kill option though. You're overrating zerolina rather than underrating zelda. Let's imagine a fight where rosalina does't have her luma. Suddenly she's a big floaty target, with low kill power, low mobility, blind spots, one special to use in combat situation, poor edgeguard etc...

Since when Rosalina's smash attacks are weak?
Since when Rosalina has bad mobility?
Since when Rosalina can't go deep with her amazing recovery distance and gimp people with disjointed stuffs?

Does she has one MU she wins without Luma? No. Suddenly all her MU are 6:4 at best, something even zelda can't claim.

Agreed though.

 

[PUK]

Zerolina's smash attack do some damages (not a lot, 12% is not high), and doesn't have high bkb and kbg (which would compensate). Not really low either, but they are deceptively weak. Her mobility is not on the fast side either, she's like under average on practically everything, and pls without Luma her Nair become as surprising as Sakurai's anouncement about ryu, and her other aerial last years, but because she's floaty and her air speed is meh, she can't follow an airdodge. Or even punish it on some characters
The only characters she can gimp are LM and ROB. Congratulations

 

[TriTails]

Doesn't Rosalina's F-smash deal 14%? Welp. I need to look at it more.

Her mobility is above average, with her aerial mobility being near one of the best. She has above-average dashing speed and decent airspeed but she controls almost at Wario's levels. Great acceleration and decceleration (From what I have seen). You want a trash airspeed? See D3 or Luigi.

She can also gimp Luigi, Ganon, Falcon, Mario, Duck Hunt, *Insert tons of characters here*. What makes you think she can't gimp with her disjointed and lingering D-air? What makes you think she cannot KO with mediocre smash attacks (Yo. Let's be honest. They're not Sheik tier. Nowhere near that)?