Character Competitive Impressions

[DRX_MDDDGT]

Honestly, at the entire "ZSS is holding Nairo back" comment.

Not to bash on him, he did play well, but I feel like he was playing so far from his best. Look at his set vs False at Smash-4-ever. He had such great movement and he was doing a lot more mix ups. He did play better at CEO, but he didn't make use of some of the awesome mobility we know that he has. He was too desperate with grabs and Zero knew when he was going to grab nearly every time.

I think ZSS is a great character mostly because I believe her MU vs shiek is actually even. The metagame matters after all and Shiek being top tier is one of the few things keeping ZSS relevant (and by extension, keeping Luigi meh, his MU vs Shiek is just terrible, and every tournament has too many shieks now) as a top tier.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

A very easy double Ryu infinite: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q9Q-EQc8Yy0

At this rate 3v3 or 4v4 has a brighter future than 2v2 imo.

 

[Zelder]

A very easy double Ryu infinite: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q9Q-EQc8Yy0

At this rate 3v3 or 4v4 has a brighter future than 2v2 imo.

This is super easy if your partner is dead, yeah. But if your partner is dead, you're probably going to lose the game anyways.

 

[Flamecircle]

Honestly, at the entire "ZSS is holding Nairo back" comment.

Not to bash on him, he did play well, but I feel like he was playing so far from his best. Look at his set vs False at Smash-4-ever. He had such great movement and he was doing a lot more mix ups. He did play better at CEO, but he didn't make use of some of the awesome mobility we know that he has. He was too desperate with grabs and Zero knew when he was going to grab nearly every time.

I think ZSS is a great character mostly because I believe her MU vs shiek is actually even. The metagame matters after all and Shiek being top tier is one of the few things keeping ZSS relevant (and by extension, keeping Luigi meh, his MU vs Shiek is just terrible, and every tournament has too many shieks now) as a top tier.

It doesn't matter how many mixups you do if you can't scare the opponent into not shielding. Nairo does this with his amazing conversions off of grab. However, against a patient and reactive Sheik with reactions as good as ZeRo's, it's very difficult to scare him out of shield. Nairo wasn't wrong to be "desperate with grabs," he HAD to grab. Otherwise, Sheik would slowly chip him out in the neutral(actually, not that slowly. ZeRo did a great job comboing with sheik. Every touch was converted to at least 14%).

And that's where the problem lies. "Holds Nairo back" might be a bit extreme, but I definitely think ZSS is weaker in the matchup.

 

[David Viran]

It doesn't matter how many mixups you do if you can't scare the opponent into not shielding. Nairo does this with his amazing conversions off of grab. However, against a patient and reactive Sheik with reactions as good as ZeRo's, it's very difficult to scare him out of shield. Nairo wasn't wrong to be "desperate with grabs," he HAD to grab. Otherwise, Sheik would slowly chip him out in the neutral(actually, not that slowly. ZeRo did a great job comboing with sheik. Every touch was converted to at least 14%).

And that's where the problem lies. "Holds Nairo back" might be a bit extreme, but I definitely think ZSS is weaker in the matchup.

Grabbing isn't the only way to punish shielding. When you put your sheild up you have to commit somehow to get your options back after shielding. And you can't hold sheild forever. Not saying it's the easiest way to punish shielding but it's a way.

 

[**Gilgamesh**]

I think the reason Nairo went for grabs was because was beating in neutral, and when he was able to get a grab their was a ton of reward, however whenever ZSS didn't get grabs, Nairo was losing the neutral.

 

[Asdioh]

A very easy double Ryu infinite: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q9Q-EQc8Yy0

At this rate 3v3 or 4v4 has a brighter future than 2v2 imo.

3v3 is awesome, but 2v2 Time is also a viable way to prevent 2v1 gimmicks* that nobody would probably even consider. Time is actually interesting in 2v2s, because you can't just run out the clock, there isn't enough space, as there would be in 1v1.

*assuming those gimmicks are even problematic in the first place

That said, just about every character combo has amazing 2v1 setups from a grab. A local team has great synergy with Sonic/Megaman, and a Sonic Dthrow->Mega Upsmash->Spring Upair is a guaranteed quick kill! Coming off of a Sonic grab, which is far easier to get than with Ryu, what with his speed and all.

And idk what all the doom and gloom is about in these recent pages. CEO was a great tourney, and if people lost, they'll most likely study why they did and get even better. I have no idea how this translates to people quitting/the scene dying lol.

 

[Luigi player]

A very easy double Ryu infinite: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q9Q-EQc8Yy0

At this rate 3v3 or 4v4 has a brighter future than 2v2 imo.

If you'd have seen the istudy + gregs team (Greninja + Sheik mostly, a few times Fox + Luigi) at Big Agon you probably wouldn't have said that.
They had such awesome teamplay and synergy and were always perfectly setup for combos. Watching them play was truly beautiful.
We need more teams like that.

 

[FullMoon]

Huh? Do Greninja and Sheik have good synergy in doubles?

I mean if they do it's amazingly appropriate but I can't quite see it.

 

[Zelder]

Shiek has good synergy with everyone in doubles.

 

[Luigi player]

Huh? Do Greninja and Sheik have good synergy in doubles?

I mean if they do it's amazingly appropriate but I can't quite see it.

I'm not really sure about that, but the players just had (almost?) always their gameplan. They must've teamed a lot to play in such a way. They were jumping around each other while the other one was doing his moves without interfering and trying to trick their opponents and taking away options from them plus covering each other.

And if you ask me I think Greninja is overall a great teams character. He's really fast on the ground, vertically and has great punishes (usmash, fair, dashgrab), because he's covering such big space with them. Many of his moves set up for combos and he can follow up combos from his partner well. I was thinking of him being great at doubles even before watching iStudy and Gregs.

And yeah Sheik is Sheik. No doubt she's a great teamcharacter.

 

[OC_Das]

This is official, even though its voted right?

 

[FullMoon]

I'm not really sure about that, but the players just had (almost?) always their gameplan. They must've teamed a lot to play in such a way. They were jumping around each other while the other one was doing his moves without interfering and trying to trick their opponents and taking away options from them plus covering each other.

And if you ask me I think Greninja is overall a great teams character. He's really fast on the ground, vertically and has great punishes (usmash, fair, dashgrab), because he's covering such big space with them. Many of his moves set up for combos and he can follow up combos from his partner well. I was thinking of him being great at doubles even before watching iStudy and Gregs.

And yeah Sheik is Sheik. No doubt she's a great teamcharacter.

I never really thought of much about Greninja in doubles, it's just me being unfamiliar with the metagame but I just never saw Greninja as being very good in doubles when I can't think of many characters that flow well with him outside of Villager. Interesting to hear all that.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

I don't have much experience in doubles but I do know that DK isn't a great partner. He can't really tank stocks because he's such a big target and often gets doubled up on, his killpower is good but so many characters have that and don't have his weaknesses. It's hard to land. Like, borderline impossible on some stages because his hurtbox is huge and doesn't have good landing options. Not to mention there's 3 other people on stage. Landing is hard enough in singles but doubles? It just doesn't happen.
Lucas seems like an excellent doubles partner though. I'd like to see him in action, because in theory he should do well with the ability to heal, a reflector, energy projectiles (because Game and Watch), PK fire (Villager Pocketed PK fire KOs really early) and that kill-power.

 

[Space thing]

I've used Greninja a few times in teams. I could see him being pretty good overall. I doubt he's super great or anything but not bad. He's mobile and can move in and out of pressure situations as needed. Hydro Pump is also pretty good for everything it is in singles, while also being a great way to disrupt the other team's plans/put them in a position where your team mate can follow up. Fully charged Water Shuriken can also set up some pretty awesome things with a team mate who has strong aerials.

With customs on, Shifting shuriken is also pretty great. You can basically pull someone out of the chaos that might be going on and get an early Usmash kill. And if you hit your team mate with it, it's usually not a big deal because it doesn't do much damage and often actually pulls your team mate OUT of danger. Just don't follow on him by mistake.

 

[Balgorxz]

I wonder if the pending NX will mean we get another Smash game sooner rather than later. Of course, knowing Nintendo, there's a very good chance the NX will be a super powered handheld or a Wii U add-on or a wearable shirt that streams videogames or something equally convoluted.

consoles are unprofittable in japan, I'm willing to bet the next nintendo system will be a cloud store system with all Eshop games.

 

[hypersonicJD]

I do thiink that Greninja can actually be a good partner in doubles. He can cover your partner with his Water Shuriken or Shadow Sneak, he also has a counter. So it should be good.

 

[bc1910]

Greninja is good in doubles, but very few other characters/strats will matter until VanishBucket gets chopped.

 

[Luco]

I don't have much experience in doubles but I do know that DK isn't a great partner. He can't really tank stocks because he's such a big target and often gets doubled up on, his killpower is good but so many characters have that and don't have his weaknesses. It's hard to land. Like, borderline impossible on some stages because his hurtbox is huge and doesn't have good landing options. Not to mention there's 3 other people on stage. Landing is hard enough in singles but doubles? It just doesn't happen.
Lucas seems like an excellent doubles partner though. I'd like to see him in action, because in theory he should do well with the ability to heal, a reflector, energy projectiles (because Game and Watch), PK fire (Villager Pocketed PK fire KOs really early) and that kill-power.

I'm surprised the PSI kids haven't been getting attention in doubles. In Brawl they used to wreck house - Mekos' Lucas was really really well known for his doubles play, and Shaky's Ness + NickRiddle's ZSS were practically inseparable from each other

But yeah, healing is such a big deal, it allows them to take on the role of stock tank and then go back to 0% whenever they have stage control.

Goodness I love team attack (I remember when I was so new and hated team attack, OH HOW THE TIMES HAVE CHANGED!!!).


EDIT: I've been talking about Ness and Lucas so much recently. I hate always talking about the same thing, it makes everyone think you're biased and reduces your messenger status as a result.

 

[hypersonicJD]

About Lucas. I'm also a little bit biased. Because I think he is better than Ness and that he's top tier. So he could help a lot in a team match

 

[DblCrest]

I'd always been iffy on team attack in doubles because I haven't had enough practice with it. I find I need to always be on the other side of the stage or else my partner's attacks will keep hitting me. XD


Tried some PM doubles with my meet up group and I only lost stocks because of my partner @_@

 

[warionumbah2]

MK gets alot of exposure in doubles, so its easy to pick out good teams without theorycrafting.

Spoiler: If anyone cares

+() Tornado forcing people to shield then Marth shield breaks the victim. Then of course Marth gets a tipper F-Smash for free. Also Marth's down throw sends players at a sexy angle for Uair strings and with platforms Marth's buffed Up B(which was good enough pre patch as seen in the gif) aids Shuttle loop in killing up top. http://i.imgur.com/2A3uzhx.gif

+

http://i.imgur.com/2A3uzhx.gif


+ Mario's F-throw and B-throw(this is better cause it hits the opposing teammate away and sends the player higher up than F-Throw) perfectly sets up tornado for a free +20% and Mario can then fire FLUDD to send MK closer to the blastzone. According to Tech it 0 to deaths lightweights on FD and mid weights on lower ceiling stages. Pretty dope. http://i.imgur.com/9beRjuR.gif

+ Simply strong follow ups out of each others throws, a basic team that works.

+ Sonic's down throw and Sonic's just a good character.

But G&W and Sheik dominate doubles so nothing else matters that much.

EDIT: @ Luco I read the post and talking about your main all the time(especially pretty much every page which i've seen) can make you look like an ultra bias person. But you seem to be the only one that cares about what people think of you online, going with your first edit above. Like if you wanna boast about how much you know about other characters to impress the viewers on this thread that's cool. We already got Shaya(i think you written a wall dedicated to him),Thinkman,Solidsense,Emblem lord ect to do that for us, providing useful knowledge consistently if you wanna join the club just do it.

Only read half of your wall before you deleted it.

 

[Luco]

EDIT: I'm really tired, so I'm going to save my psychology lessons for another time when it doesn't look so personal lol. If you read the post though, hopefully you got a sense of what I meant. Anyway, carry on.

 

[Cassio]

@ Shaya @ Cassio Lucina still at least seems logical against like...Pikachu. I would assume he's still annoying to tipper consistently, and Roy is pretty risky against Pikachu's strong combo and edgeguard game.

Anyhow when it comes to sword characters, to push a bold claim, I actually think Link is top 15. I don't think he has a single unwinnable matchup anymore. Yes he has some clear weaknesses, but he can swing any game really quickly with his new grab game (especially against fastfallers, like the pesky Fox and Sheik who invalidated him previously). He also wins many more matchups pretty convincingly now that no character in this game can just fundamentally abuse what used to be his midrange dead zone, and he still has his strong close and long range game to control neutral.

I do think Lucina is better vs pika, but I havent explored marths buffs vs pika. Likely, marth would need to be able to kill pika more consistently to be better then Lucina at the MU. Killing disparity vs Marth is one of the reasons it was felt the MU is even or pika advantage in melee and Brawl.

Also I am worried about the buffs to sword characters, I stated this same sentiment over half a year ago. Its nice and all that theyre not completely unviable, but the wrong buff could cause them to invalidate a lot of the cast. Hopefully they dont get anymore buffs.

 

[hypersonicJD]

Oooh... I get it now I mean I don't even main lucas. My true main is Sonic. But I do want to explore the potential of other characters like Lucas. He is just been pretty dumpted out of the meta Recently. Everyone just goes for Ness. But I think that Lucas has the potential to be a really good top tier. Even better than Ness. His combos are really good and you can do amazing strings of Neutral Air with Lucas. Leading even into a Kill. And he doesn't even need a grab to do that.

Hell, even today I have been testing out Sheik to discover anything new with her or just get more competitive and learn more match-ups.

 

[Ryu_Ken]

I do think Lucina is better vs pika, but I havent explored marths buffs vs pika. Likely, marth would need to be able to kill pika more consistently to be better then Lucina at the MU. Killing disparity vs Marth is one of the reasons it was felt the MU is even or pika advantage in melee and Brawl.

Also I am worried about the buffs to sword characters, I stated this same sentiment over half a year ago. Its nice and all that theyre not completely unviable, but the wrong buff could cause them to invalidate a lot of the cast. Hopefully they dont get anymore buffs.

Unless the majority of their attacks come out at sonic speed (frame 6 or lower), I don't see them "invalidating" anyone. If anything, they invalidate default mii swordsman.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I do think Lucina is better vs pika, but I havent explored marths buffs vs pika. Likely, marth would need to be able to kill pika more consistently to be better then Lucina at the MU. Killing disparity vs Marth is one of the reasons it was felt the MU is even or pika advantage in melee and Brawl.

Also I am worried about the buffs to sword characters, I stated this same sentiment over half a year ago. Its nice and all that theyre not completely unviable, but the wrong buff could cause them to invalidate a lot of the cast. Hopefully they dont get anymore buffs.

I'm most worried about Link being really polarizing, personally. His grab game is the strongest of all the sword characters and he's also able to force approaches. Strong grab games combined with dominant neutral options traditionally tend to be the major thing that skew balance in Smash. I actually think Link is strong enough at this point that he'd be more likely to get nerfed.

Marth/Lucina Jab buff to an extent I feel is kinda silly when I compare how much better it is than other Jabs currently. I think this is more a question of raising the overall power level of a few other Jabs in this game, though I wouldn't be surprised if Marth/Lucina Jab got toned down slightly in the future.

 

[Dr. Bread]

Huh? Do Greninja and Sheik have good synergy in doubles?

I mean if they do it's amazingly appropriate but I can't quite see it.

i could see it working honestly, greninja and sheik can both set up some up-air or vanish kills for eachother... bouncing fish might have some setup potential with water shuriken? hard to say, greninja is very uncommon right now.

it is probably safe to say that sheik has potential for good synergy with the whole cast, even herself, although i dont think she is the best doubles character, she plays really well with and against almost any team.

 

[FullMoon]

The thing I see working well between Sheik and Greninja is that Sheik can very easily set people into Greninja's strong attacks like Up-Smash. One has lightning fast frame data and poor kill power while the other has great kill power and slow frame data, I can see them working together well in that sense.

 

[Djent]

Swordies are fine for now. Like, cmon devs, wait until people actually pick them until you mess with them any more. It's not even that they could invalidate a lot of the cast (though they could in theory), it's just not good balancing practice.

*Inb4 1.0.9 gets flight mode*

 

[mimgrim]

*Inb4 1.0.9 gets flight mode*

Obligatory; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h5825Wu0WjA

 

[Smog Frog]

can the new meme to replace "better nerf " be "better buff "

 

[Ryu_Ken]

I'm most worried about Link being really polarizing, personally. His grab game is the strongest of all the sword characters and he's also able to force approaches. Strong grab games combined with dominant neutral options traditionally tend to be the major thing that skew balance in Smash. I actually think Link is strong enough at this point that he'd be more likely to get nerfed.

Marth/Lucina Jab buff to an extent I feel is kinda silly when I compare how much better it is than other Jabs currently. I think this is more a question of raising the overall power level of a few other Jabs in this game, though I wouldn't be surprised if Marth/Lucina Jab got toned down slightly in the future.

All that's left to make Link broken is give him the old hitbox back on his Nair and/or reduce the endlag to make it safe on shield. Link is still punishable and susceptible to combos, so I'm fine where he's at.

If Sakurai knows what he's doing, he'll leave him alone (or nerf the amount of damage utilt does).

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

I think people are over blowing zero's dominance. People glaim smash 4 won't be competitive because one person stands at the top. However, do people not recall Justin Wongs 3 year run in mvc2? How about Diago being untouchable in SFIV winning two straight EVOs and rarely losing in the US.

The players will catch up to him especially the high level players. Once they're tired of losing. The early life span of this game didn't have players chase after top tiers. Zero had a sheik before he had a diddy. Meanwhile players like Nairo were playing robin and Zelda. Anti rarely comes to tournaments and I haven't seen much of ally in the US.

Evo may very well becwon by Zero but I suspect this is going to be the most brutal smash 4 tournament yet. There's going to be upsets and the results should be a great indicator of tiers. Also customs are legal so we're going to see a bunch of nutty things.

One thing I can say for sure is I don't believe Zero will be at the top for the lifespan of smash 4. Too many great players with a lot of pride to allow that to happen.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Swordies are fine for now. Like, cmon devs, wait until people actually pick them until you mess with them any more. It's not even that they could invalidate a lot of the cast (though they could in theory), it's just not good balancing practice.

*Inb4 1.0.9 gets flight mode*

Japan won't pick Ike though. They just won't like him. So the devs will keep buffing him.

I'm only half joking about this. Ike might end up rather high on the NA tier list because Japan refuses to budge their opinion of him.

Or in the most hilarious (if very unlikely) situation: banned in NA, bottom tier in Japan!

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Japan won't pick Ike though. They just won't like him. So the devs will keep buffing him.

I'm only half joking about this. Ike might end up rather high on the NA tier list because Japan refuses to budge their opinion of him.

Or in the most hilarious (if very unlikely) situation: banned in NA, bottom tier in Japan!

All ike needs is sone sunglasses and a trench coat and Japan would be all over him.

 

[Ffamran]

Japan won't pick Ike though. They just won't like him. So the devs will keep buffing him.

I'm only half joking about this. Ike might end up rather high on the NA tier list because Japan refuses to budge their opinion of him.

Or in the most hilarious (if very unlikely) situation: banned in NA, bottom tier in Japan!

Wait, why does Japan hate Ike? I swear if this ends up like the same reason why Square Enix had and felt the need to create Vaan (and Penelo) as the main characters of Final Fantasy XII because Basch was too "old" and "manly".

All ike needs is sone sunglasses and a trench coat and Japan would be all over him.

I'd rather have Dante than Wesker in Smash 4, thank you very much.

 

[Mario766]

They didn't like his change from FE9 to FE10. Also Path of Radiance and Radiant Dawn were some of the worst selling FE games in the series for Japan. They called Ike a gorilla when he was revealed in Smash 4.
They also wanted Chrom to replace Ike. A LOT.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Wait, why does Japan hate Ike? I swear if this ends up like the same reason why Square Enix had and felt the need to create Vaan (and Penelo) as the main characters of Final Fantasy XII because Basch was too "old" and "manly".

Most hated Fire Emblem lord in Japan last I checked. Despite like, Roy and Leaf being terrible within their games stat wise. Ike's two games sold the least, a lot of them don't like him being muscular, he was bottom of mid tier in Brawl, and then he started off really nerfed in SSB4.

Nobody over there wants to use him.

 

[FullMoon]

Japan doesn't like very muscular men except when they do apparently.

Everybody must be a shonen protagonist