Character Competitive Impressions

[Mr. Johan]

On the contrary, Marth has actually been surpassed for the first time by Ike in character popularity polls for the JP Fire Emblem fanbase.

There's the answer. Let's get all of the fanbase to play Smash competitively so everyone gets sick of Ike. No friends for him.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

I'm surprised the PSI kids haven't been getting attention in doubles. In Brawl they used to wreck house - Mekos' Lucas was really really well known for his doubles play, and Shaky's Ness + NickRiddle's ZSS were practically inseparable from each other

But yeah, healing is such a big deal, it allows them to take on the role of stock tank and then go back to 0% whenever they have stage control.

Goodness I love team attack (I remember when I was so new and hated team attack, OH HOW THE TIMES HAVE CHANGED!!!).


EDIT: I've been talking about Ness and Lucas so much recently. I hate always talking about the same thing, it makes everyone think you're biased and reduces your messenger status as a result.

Biased or... the most knowledgable?
Actually now that I think about it most of the stuff lucas can do, Ness can do. Ness + Lucas would be a sick team.

 

[hypersonicJD]

I agree lol.

 

[Shaya]

For basically the first time, Nairo's come across someone at a similar or better skill level than him with ZSS on a character that goes even with her.
ZSS steamrolls just about every character if either
1. You're a better player than them (because of damage output/kill power)
2. Or they don't camp shield.
(I'm somewhat alone on this/clash with top level opinions but I've thought ZSS bodies Rosa since December). Diddy definitely had the advantage pre-mewtwo and they haven't fought since then.

"Always shield" is, funnily enough, good against just about every character.
Does ZSS beat shields? Yes but it's a lot harder if you aren't very well accustomed to dealing with -similar level to you- (in this case, TOP LEVEL) shielding.
ZeRo would shield against Nairo at point blank ranges. Most top level players are mid-range specialists/focused, they aren't going to shield right in front of someone's face (and hold it) intentionally unless it's for the shield grab punish. Here's the kicker; ZSS has the mobility to ignore or move around this and doing this successfully requires comfortability and extremely tuned anticipation of shield drops (i.e. turning your top level 10 frame reaction speed into 7-8 frame anticipations on the visual queue of the bubble dissipating). Nairo was obviously not comfortable although we know his reactions are that potent.

 

[Ikes]

Most hated Fire Emblem lord in Japan last I checked. Despite like, Roy and Leaf being terrible within their games stat wise. Ike's two games sold the least, a lot of them don't like him being muscular, he was bottom of mid tier in Brawl, and then he started off really nerfed in SSB4.

Nobody over there wants to use him.

to be fair, Brawl Ike's design was more logical design wise, and even then he was by no means skinny or unfit to wield ragnell. His current design has a bunch of nonsensical design flourishes (having one shoulder pad but no arm protection? and the shape of the shoulder armor would just allow a sword to slip off onto his arm, so the protection is minimal. Also most of his straps make no sense whatsoever)

honestly I'd play him if he had his brawl design back.
But the fact that Japan doesnt like playing him even if he's actually good is silly.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

to be fair, Brawl Ike's design was more logical design wise, and even then he was by no means skinny or unfit to wield ragnell. His current design has a bunch of nonsensical design flourishes (having one shoulder pad but no arm protection? and the shape of the shoulder armor would just allow a sword to slip off onto his arm, so the protection is minimal. Also most of his straps make no sense whatsoever)

Japan loves those nonsensical designs though.

It's mainly the fact that he's burl and muscular.

Us westerners think that's a positive thing.

Easterners tend to attribute that to negative stereotypes.



Regardless, Ike will be a western played character regardless which is a shame, because he's quite good. He's got a lot of neat tools and I keep being surprised at how fast he is.

I swear are quite fast for how hard they hit.

 

[Ffamran]

to be fair, Brawl Ike's design was more logical design wise, and even then he was by no means skinny or unfit to wield ragnell. His current design has a bunch of nonsensical design flourishes (having one shoulder pad but no arm protection? and the shape of the shoulder armor would just allow a sword to slip off onto his arm, so the protection is minimal. Also most of his straps make no sense whatsoever)

honestly I'd play him if he had his brawl design back.
But the fact that Japan doesnt like playing him even if he's actually good is silly.

Canonically, Ike in Brawl shouldn't even have Ragnell or Aether.

Spoiler: Off topic stuff

He doesn't get Ragnell until he's a Lord and by then, he's wearing green, has a larger shoulder pad, and probably better in-game stats. Brawl Ike was Ranger Ike who basically hacked in Ragnell and Aether or did some major sequence breaking. Smash 4 Ike might not have Ragnell, I think he should be a Vanguard rather than a Hero as he is now and Vanguard Ike was better armored and could use axes... Imagine Ganondorf weight and survivability with Ike's current specs.

Ike being a mercenary who refused noble life would explain his rugged and shabby armor that he may or may not have taken from random defeated enemy soldiers - Smash 4 on the Wii U even shows his shoulder pad is slightly damaged. He's not like Chrom who decided stupid armor is cool or Marth and Roy who had access to proper and good armor. Ike had to make do while making sure his band of mercenaries were equipped too. Kind of like how Big Boss's gear in The Phantom Pain not only looks kind of stupid - the "demon's tail", paracord around his left pant leg, and ragged scarf -, but he had to start all over in TP while he at least had something in Peace Walker and was given gear in MGS3 and Portable Ops.

If Ike does get a design change and ages up in Smash 5, they could go with a Griel influenced design which Ike already emulated with his PoR and RD looks. Oh, and he should look less chunky. Ike's muscular, but he's not a meathead. Captain Falcon looked really chunky meathead in Brawl, but Smash 4 made him look like an Olympian.

On-topic: Denial of a character's viability because of past game(s), first impressions, and even looks and what game they come from is stupid. I think Jigglypuff looks stupid and those belt things on Shulk's pants or boots? Egh, but I will never say they're bad characters until they're proven to be bad. I will not ignore them as they could come out of nowhere and kick ***. This isn't a fashion show...

 

[Speed Boost]

For basically the first time, Nairo's come across someone at a similar or better skill level than him with ZSS on a character that goes even with her.
ZSS steamrolls just about every character if either
1. You're a better player than them (because of damage output/kill power)
2. Or they don't camp shield.
(I'm somewhat alone on this/clash with top level opinions but I've thought ZSS bodies Rosa since December). Diddy definitely had the advantage pre-mewtwo and they haven't fought since then.

"Always shield" is, funnily enough, good against just about every character.
Does ZSS beat shields? Yes but it's a lot harder if you aren't very well accustomed to dealing with -similar level to you- (in this case, TOP LEVEL) shielding.
ZeRo would shield against Nairo at point blank ranges. Most top level players are mid-range specialists/focused, they aren't going to shield right in front of someone's face (and hold it) intentionally unless it's for the shield grab punish. Here's the kicker; ZSS has the mobility to ignore or move around this and doing this successfully requires comfortability and extremely tuned anticipation of shield drops (i.e. turning your top level 10 frame reaction speed into 7-8 frame anticipations on the visual queue of the bubble dissipating). Nairo was obviously not comfortable although we know his reactions are that potent.

Nario is an amazing player and it was facsinating to watch someone shut down his options so well. Zero was reading him like a book. He would shield all his spacing aerials and then spot dodge his grab attempts, punish and repeat. When you combine this with the fact that Sheik is one of the only characters that can rush down ZSS then you get the dominance we saw.

ZSS has amazing combo options and kill power but to get those started she has to do one of three things.

1. Hit a nuetral air
2. Get a grab
3. Hit a paralyzer or down smash to get a punish or grab

The problem is shield beats all of these options other than grab and without hitting a paralyzer or nuetral air first grab is a read. Against a player of Zero's caliber you just aren't going to be able to read him that often.

This is why I am convinced that Nario should have gone Pit, so Zero would have had to play him honest. He may have still lost due to the fact Zero's nuetral may just be better, but it was the best option IMO.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Any thoughts about who should get the next buff dump? suffers from special snowflake like nobody's business. He makes look like in comparison. I think this character is weighed down terribly by things that were meant to make him unique. Buff his throws, make him faster (making him one of the slowest characters is downright cruel), make his pummel faster, and give his aerials less landing lag.
Convoluted isn't a bad thing as long as the characters has enough good attributes to make up for it. and especially are prime examples of this. They're weird but they're deadly in the right hands. For (and to a lesser extent) you have to significantly outplay your opponent to really get anywhere with them. It's like . Players of these characters were among some of the best strategists in the game but they typically didn't get very far because of how doofy the characters were. I personally don't think there should be any characters like that in Smash 4. If a character's weird, it should be rewarding to learn them, not a perpetual uphill battle.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

@ Shaya

Specifically, Zero was powershielding a lot of stuff. It was especially prevalent when he and Nairo were playing footsies. Zero would do that on reaction and throw out aerials/noncommittal options to punish/get a better vantage.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Ikes]

Any thoughts about who should get the next buff dump? suffers from special snowflake like nobody's business. He makes look like in comparison. I think this character is weighed down terribly by things that were meant to make him unique. Buff his throws, make him faster (making him one of the slowest characters is downright cruel), make his pummel faster, and give his aerials less landing lag.
Convoluted isn't a bad thing as long as the characters has enough good attributes to make up for it. and especially are prime examples of this. They're weird but they're deadly in the right hands. For (and to a lesser extent) you have to significantly outplay your opponent to really get anywhere with them. It's like . Players of these characters were among some of the best strategists in the game but they typically didn't get very far because of how doofy the characters were. I personally don't think there should be any characters like that in Smash 4. If a character's weird, it should be rewarding to learn them, not a perpetual uphill battle.

It seems like the worst characters are those nintendo designed weaknesses for.

 

[Nu~]

It seems like the worst characters are those nintendo designed weaknesses for.

More like designed weaknesses for and didn't give enough compensation. Mega man was given a stupid grab range and uptilt to combat his horrid CQC and low damage output.

Pac-Man was given a bad grab to balance the polarization of the trampoline and ZSS was a given a bad grab to balance her amazing combos out of her throws.

 

[Ikes]

More like designed weaknesses for and didn't give enough compensation. Mega man was given a stupid grab range and uptilt to combat his horrid CQC and low damage output.

Pac-Man was given a bad grab to balance the polarization of the trampoline and ZSS was a given a bad grab to balance her amazing combos out of her throws.

I feel like nintendo thinks that tether grabs are good and pac mans assets are easy to counter and they overall underestimate or severely overestimate the tools they give certain characters. I feel like the only characters theyve managed to reach near-perfect balance with are characters like Donkey Kong

 

[Speed Boost]

I feel like nintendo thinks that tether grabs are good and pac mans assets are easy to counter and they overall underestimate or severely overestimate the tools they give certain characters. I feel like the only characters theyve managed to reach near-perfect balance with are characters like Donkey Kong

I have faith in Nintendo. They did the best they could to provide a balanced game at launch and they are continuing to balance it further. They have showed that they can do so by buffing and nerfing and I am happy with the results so far.

I'm sure weaker characters will continue to see buffs in future updates. It's no surprise they have buffed and nerfed some of the more popular characters first. This game is very well balanced when compare to previous iterations of Smash and fighting games in general. Especially when you take into account the large roster.

 

[Mario766]

I like how everyone is talking about how much Ike got buffed when all of these 'buffs' are really just returns to Brawl Ike but with better air speed and combo ability. The only move that really has gotten buffed from Brawl is Dash Attack and his throws.

 

[Nu~]

I feel like nintendo thinks that tether grabs are good and pac mans assets are easy to counter and they overall underestimate or severely overestimate the tools they give certain characters. I feel like the only characters theyve managed to reach near-perfect balance with are characters like Donkey Kong

I highly doubt they believe that tether grabs are good. Why else would they buff link's tether? Why would they give ZSS one knowing that her moveset is already overwhelming?

 

[Speed Boost]

I like how everyone is talking about how much Ike got buffed when all of these 'buffs' are really just returns to Brawl Ike but with better air speed and combo ability. The only move that really has gotten buffed from Brawl is Dash Attack and his throws.

You talk about better air speed and combo ability and then say the only buff since brawl is dash attack?

 

[Nu~]

You talk about better air speed and combo ability and then say the only buff since brawl is dash attack?

To be fair, he said the only move

 

[Speed Boost]

To be fair, he said the only move

I guess you are right, I just hate when people start comparing the characters in the game to their Brawl counterparts. The game engine is completely different regarless of the characters movesets being the same in many instances.

 

[Ffamran]

I like how everyone is talking about how much Ike got buffed when all of these 'buffs' are really just returns to Brawl Ike but with better air speed and combo ability. The only move that really has gotten buffed from Brawl is Dash Attack and his throws.

'Cause I like being that guy.

Ike at launch has faster tilts than in Brawl, especially Dtilt which in Brawl was frame 16. Dtilt is now frame 7 and hasn't been changed as far as I'm aware. Ftilt became even faster; at launch Ftilt was frame 14 and it's frame 12 now. All of his aerials, except Dair and Bair are faster with Fair getting hitbox fixes and being even faster; Fair at launch was frame 13, now it's frame 12 because of the top hitbox. Jab is faster, but maybe not as fast as Brawl's, Dash Attack was buffed on its own accord, Ftilt and Fair were buffed twice from launch changes and patch 1.0.8, and then you have the rest of Ike being better with faster tilts, faster aerials, faster run speed, and faster air speed.

Ike just needed some tweaks after launch to be better. A constant 12.5% from a 12 frame Ftilt is better than a frame 15 Ftilt that did 14% with a sour-spot 12%. Dash Attack killing is something he needed considering how slow his Dash Attack is and was - it used to kill later than Dtilt pre-patch. Ike has a strong character design that needed tweaking from launch. Now, if only Falco's jab could be a bit more like Brawl; them faster jab cancels would be nice. Oh, and Link being able to jab cancel more reliably, but not too quickly too.

 

[Mr. Johan]

I think what Shaya said a while back about characters having high FG rates going hand in hand with respective buffs or lack thereof applies here. Robin, Samus, Pacman, and others may have particular issues, but if they're not being abused, the devs will look at this mid-low level play on average and think those characters are all right.

I fought three really decent Duck Hunts on FG in the past 48 hours. It's hard as holy hell getting past all of the stuff and the dog and get through to pressure them. Sounds like Duck Hunt's good on paper.



I think the update with Tournament Mode will be a turning point as far as who gets buffed and who doesn't. Not only will more stages be introduced to observe fighting interactions that way, but also different rule sets like 3-stock and a longer time limit will promote different strategies that work for some more than it does for others, and a chance to see high-level play and all that it entails will be possible given the appropriate restrictions, all under Nintendo's servers. Then appropriate buffs, and nerfs, will be set accordingly.



On a personal note, I think giving Robin a Hoo-Hah would be somehting that really helps him. With a grab as short-ranged as that and with that end lag, he kinda deserves one.

 

[David Viran]

Nario is an amazing player and it was facsinating to watch someone shut down his options so well. Zero was reading him like a book. He would shield all his spacing aerials and then spot dodge his grab attempts, punish and repeat. When you combine this with the fact that Sheik is one of the only characters that can rush down ZSS then you get the dominance we saw.

ZSS has amazing combo options and kill power but to get those started she has to do one of three things.

1. Hit a nuetral air
2. Get a grab
3. Hit a paralyzer or down smash to get a punish or grab

The problem is shield beats all of these options other than grab and without hitting a paralyzer or nuetral air first grab is a read. Against a player of Zero's caliber you just aren't going to be able to read him that often.

This is why I am convinced that Nario should have gone Pit, so Zero would have had to play him honest. He may have still lost due to the fact Zero's nuetral may just be better, but it was the best option IMO.

Nairo faced zero alot recently before CEO. He must have had his reasons for not going pit.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I'm most worried about Link being really polarizing, personally. His grab game is the strongest of all the sword characters and he's also able to force approaches. Strong grab games combined with dominant neutral options traditionally tend to be the major thing that skew balance in Smash. I actually think Link is strong enough at this point that he'd be more likely to get nerfed.

Marth/Lucina Jab buff to an extent I feel is kinda silly when I compare how much better it is than other Jabs currently. I think this is more a question of raising the overall power level of a few other Jabs in this game, though I wouldn't be surprised if Marth/Lucina Jab got toned down slightly in the future.

Bite your tongue you swine!!!!

 

[TriTails]

I'd rather keep my Luigi jab rather than trade it with Marth's.

So far, the devs have been doing a good job with the balancing. I too have faith in them.

needs some buffs though. He's kinda a punching bag as he is now.

 

[Speed Boost]

Nairo faced zero alot recently before CEO. He must have had his reasons for not going pit.

I'm sure he did, but I would have like to of seen it. Like I said before, in my opinion he stayed ZSS because he didn't think he could beat Zero without getting some "home run" kills with ZSS. DownB spikes, early UAir UpB combos, etc.

The real problem is the best charcter he has for the matchup is Pit. That isn't a good MU either. He need to pickup Sheik himself if he wants to beat Zero.

 

[David Viran]

I'm sure he did, but I would have like to of seen it. Like I said before, in my opinion he stayed ZSS because he didn't think he could beat Zero without getting some "home run" kills with ZSS. DownB spikes, early UAir UpB combos, etc.

The real problem is the best charcter he has for the matchup is Pit. That isn't a good MU either. He need to pickup Sheik himself if he wants to beat Zero.

He said not to long ago what he thought zss's bad MU's were but he said they are not too bad and could overcome them still. Sheik was one of them. He was honestly pretty even with him alot too. It's not like he got slaughtered.

 

[Ikes]

I think what Shaya said a while back about characters having high FG rates going hand in hand with respective buffs or lack thereof applies here. Robin, Samus, Pacman, and others may have particular issues, but if they're not being abused, the devs will look at this mid-low level play on average and think those characters are all right.

I fought three really decent Duck Hunts on FG in the past 48 hours. It's hard as holy hell getting past all of the stuff and the dog and get through to pressure them. Sounds like Duck Hunt's good on paper.



I think the update with Tournament Mode will be a turning point as far as who gets buffed and who doesn't. Not only will more stages be introduced to observe fighting interactions that way, but also different rule sets like 3-stock and a longer time limit will promote different strategies that work for some more than it does for others, and a chance to see high-level play and all that it entails will be possible given the appropriate restrictions, all under Nintendo's servers. Then appropriate buffs, and nerfs, will be set accordingly.



On a personal note, I think giving Robin a Hoo-Hah would be somehting that really helps him. With a grab as short-ranged as that and with that end lag, he kinda deserves one.

problem with this is that i almost never see Diddy Kong or Meta Knight in FG and yet they got huge changes made to them.

 

[Speed Boost]

He said not to long ago what he thought zss's bad MU's were but he said they are not too bad and could overcome them still. Sheik was one of them. He was honestly pretty even with him alot too. It's not like he got slaughtered.

Your right it wasn't a slaughter but it wasn't really close either. He won 2 games in 8. Many loses were close to 2 stocks. He needs at least an even MU to get over the hump IMO.

 

[Mario766]

'Cause I like being that guy.

Ike at launch has faster tilts than in Brawl, especially Dtilt which in Brawl was frame 16. Dtilt is now frame 7 and hasn't been changed as far as I'm aware. Ftilt became even faster; at launch Ftilt was frame 14 and it's frame 12 now. All of his aerials, except Dair and Bair are faster with Fair getting hitbox fixes and being even faster; Fair at launch was frame 13, now it's frame 12 because of the top hitbox. Jab is faster, but maybe not as fast as Brawl's, Dash Attack was buffed on its own accord, Ftilt and Fair were buffed twice from launch changes and patch 1.0.8, and then you have the rest of Ike being better with faster tilts, faster aerials, faster run speed, and faster air speed.

Ike just needed some tweaks after launch to be better. A constant 12.5% from a 12 frame Ftilt is better than a frame 15 Ftilt that did 14% with a sour-spot 12%. Dash Attack killing is something he needed considering how slow his Dash Attack is and was - it used to kill later than Dtilt pre-patch. Ike has a strong character design that needed tweaking from launch. Now, if only Falco's jab could be a bit more like Brawl; them faster jab cancels would be nice. Oh, and Link being able to jab cancel more reliably, but not too quickly too.

Down Tilt got a buff for using it outside of edgeguards, but it lost the really nice spike hitbox that would be very powerful in Smash 4 due to the vulnerability frames from grabbing the ledge. F-Tilt at launch was 1 frame faster but weaker than Brawl, and it kills slower, now it's much better. N-Air is just now at Brawl levels of landing lag with 3 frame faster start-up. Up Tilt is slightly faster than Brawl but has less active frames. It kills better now though so it's better. F-Smash kills later than Brawl and has worse hitbox because it lost it's behind hitbox. Up Smash is 100 percent worse than Brawl, hits same frames but has the really dumb sourspot at the end now. Down Air is also nerfed, worse spikebox but in exchange has a killing sourspot. F-Air is the most heavily buffed move for Ike, 6 frames faster with a great hitbox. I'd rather have 3 percent damage on Up Air than 2 frames faster.

I'd 100 percent trade Jab/Down Air nerfs for air speed and combo buffs though. If Ike got a better Down Air and jab cancelling it'd be kinda stupid.

 

[Seagull Joe]

from what i observed, only destroyed campy . 6wx was in a position to take it(and actually would have, if wasnt so...cheesy good at taking stocks at low % off punishes). in general destroys campy styles(i have doubts about ; can @TheReflexWonder give insight on the matchup if he can?), so it wasnt a surprise seagull and manny got bopped.

also shoutouts to @Shaky for going to basically last hit last stock both games vs zero's . best performance i've seen against zero so far.

I don't even camp a lot. The matchup just blows. I co-main and now. Been working on my all CEO. No longer going to play if I can help it. wins or goes even with the rest of the cast as a whole other then , which is like 40-60.

 

[David Viran]

Your right it wasn't a slaughter but it wasn't really close either. He won 2 games in 8. Many loses were close to 2 stocks. He needs at least an even MU to get over the hump IMO.

Alot of the matches were decided by who took the first stock. He usually was close to him the first stock but if he died first he had a real rough time. When nairo took the first stock zero had a rough time.

 

[Speed Boost]

Alot of the matches were decided by who took the first stock. He usually was close to him the first stock but if he died first he had a real rough time. When nairo took the first stock zero had a rough time.

That is true but he wasn't able to consistently take the first stock. Zero was playing emaculate defense to limit his options in nuetral. When Nario was able to get enough reads for grabs he was able to play on equal footing with Zero. However, Zero was limiting his grab opportunities to reads by powershielding his grab confirm setups out of Nair and paralyzer.

Having to make reads in nuetral to get grabs is why the MU is so bad IMO. Sheik can get so much off a missed grab. Maybe if Nario was playing out of his mind and got way more of those reads right he could take down Zero, but that's asking a lot.

 

[David Viran]

That is true but he wasn't able to consistently take the first stock. Zero was playing emaculate defense to limit his options in nuetral. When Nario was able to get enough reads for grabs he was able to play on equal footing with Zero. However, Zero was limiting his grab opportunities to reads by powershielding his grab confirm setups out of Nair and paralyzer.

Having to make reads in nuetral to get grabs is why the MU is so bad IMO. Sheik can get so much off a missed grab. Maybe if Nario was playing out of his mind and got way more of those reads right he could take down Zero, but that's asking a lot.

Tbh making grab reads is what he does all the time in every MU. It's not MU specific. Like I said they weren't too far apart the first stock alot of the time. I think he can overcome zero with zss without being a robot imo.

 

[Seagull Joe]

Spoiler

1) Zero
2) Nairo
3) Dabuz
4) Mr.R
5) ESAM
5) Vinnie
7) Shaky
7) NickRiddle

Your predictions were the closest of anyone's I have seen. Only two out of top 8 incorrect. Kudos.

 

[Shaya]

Yes, "16 frame grab" please understand is the eternal truth.

Anyway. Nairo's neutral game was limited by ZeRo. Not so much because that's the match up, but because of mindset.
ZSS isn't limited to paralyzer, down smash and nair; or relying on people not shielding them/running into them. Either as to get started or to handle neutral.
ZeRo handed out free damage with needles much like I've seen saying Sheik does for a long time ($5 bet ZeRo watched recent Rain Sheik vs Choco ZSS). Not match up fault more so than not realising you're putting yourself in that position constantly.

Nairo wasn't comfortable using flip jump's utility. Nairo wasn't trying to space back airs on shield or poke with well spaced tilts. His play seemed to primarily be focused on the fact ZeRo was shielding, rather than stage positioning and pressure. Yes, this is the hardest part of playing ZSS at high level in even or near even match ups. But is it something a top player can't overcome? Hell no; sorry. I don't want to step into theory-world too much but know very well that this isn't easily replicable nor have you seen anything that every ZSS player is dealing with if they're a top player in their region.

ZSS needs those limits to not be a completely bull **** character. If you look at straight numbers you're going to wonder why people play Sheik at all until you look at the grab.

 

[Ffamran]

On another note: someone released this video detailing the "hidden bosses" of patch 1.0.8. Link: https://youtu.be/YbqUmkSVMNQ.

First off, I want to murder the misinformation of Falco's Nair having a windbox. Seriously ticking me off whenever I see that nowadays... Also, really? Nothing on Ike's jab? That's such an important change to Ike. The combos Link and Charizard have, though. Also, DK's low percent cargo re-grabs.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I have a theory about why people hate fighting Rosalina so much. Well, half a theory, because the other half is simply "she's really annoying."

People don't respect Luma.*

*Unless they have a lot of experience fighting a Rosalina and thus have a solid handle on her abilities.

I say this because tonight I finally got a chance to play actual people in an offline environment and while one person knew to hit Luma away at every opportunity, the other didn't respect it quite so much and I was able to get in a lot of hits that way. Even a kill at one point from a charged Luma usmash that he didn't realize would hit as high as it did. (Although he'd also had a few drinks, which probably was a factor too.)

Simply put, Luma as a mechanic is just so new that I think it'll be quite some time before everyone stops complaining about it. I mean, the knockback on its moves and sometimes-surprising range are also factors I'm sure, but I think it's mostly a matter of lacking anything really comparable for past experience to help with.

 

[Spinosaurus]

I was actually talking to a friend right now about Rosalina.

I don't think most people quite grasped the matchup yet. The concept of a puppet character is so new for Smash Bro that it's understandably foreign to the series. This is all on top of how simple Rosa is by design compared to other puppet characters of other fighting game, so she's pretty dominating right now.

I don't wanna make any predictions though. Even though I firmly believe my character wins this (for now), Rosa just has so much room to grow potentially. It's kinda impossible to tell if her gameplan will still be as simple right now and she'll drop once everyone figures her out, or if she'll stay dominating as her meta evolves.

Wonder if we're looking at a situation similar to Snake.

 

[Ikes]

I have a theory about why people hate fighting Rosalina so much. Well, half a theory, because the other half is simply "she's really annoying."

People don't respect Luma.*

*Unless they have a lot of experience fighting a Rosalina and thus have a solid handle on her abilities.

I say this because tonight I finally got a chance to play actual people in an offline environment and while one person knew to hit Luma away at every opportunity, the other didn't respect it quite so much and I was able to get in a lot of hits that way. Even a kill at one point from a charged Luma usmash that he didn't realize would hit as high as it did. (Although he'd also had a few drinks, which probably was a factor too.)

Simply put, Luma as a mechanic is just so new that I think it'll be quite some time before everyone stops complaining about it. I mean, the knockback on its moves and sometimes-surprising range are also factors I'm sure, but I think it's mostly a matter of lacking anything really comparable for past experience to help with.

I can explain it in 3 sentences.

Rosalina is still a viable character with very strong moves and disjoints without Luma. Luma is not a necessity of character but rather a luxury, and when Luma is gone, Rosalina still has the tools to play keepaway and circle camp for 12 seconds while waiting for luma to return. Having to fight a character who is Exceptional with a puppet character and still strong even when you put in the time to remove the puppet is aggravating at best and infuriating at worst.

 

[BSP]

Any thoughts about who should get the next buff dump?.

It'd be nice if Pac-Man's grab made sense. I know it needs to be bad to keep him in check, but why is his entire arm dead? I'll accept the ending lag, but please let it work at point blank.

I can explain it in 3 sentences.

Rosalina is still a viable character with very strong moves and disjoints without Luma. Luma is not a necessity of character but rather a luxury, and when Luma is gone, Rosalina still has the tools to play keepaway and circle camp for 12 seconds while waiting for luma to return. Having to fight a character who is Exceptional with a puppet character and still strong even when you put in the time to remove the puppet is aggravating at best and infuriating at worst.

Yeah. We should look into characters that can give her incentive to not run away while Luma is dead more.