Character Competitive Impressions

[Ikes]

still waiting for a buff to zelda. She needs something outside of FFA desparately.

does she have ANY setups?

 

[Sinister Slush]

The endlag of it is so miniscule anyways.

 

[NewZen]

In the same way people complained about Diddy's buffs that led to eventual nerfs for the Hoo-Hah and a few other things, anything else that leads something to be nerfed will only continue the chain until each character is supposedly "unviable". Thankfully, this is never a real-case scenario, as any developer with half of a brain knows not to listen to many people's complaints when making a game.

Hell, we all know that Smash is balanced around FFA's (That doesn't make it good, nor does it make it terrible-it's balance, something that has never been perfect in any game), you're still going to have characters that will either still fail in that situation or dominate past that scenario (1v1's, 2v2's for example). However, as it stands, many of us have no plausible (I should say logical in this case) means of balance with how we think characters should be buffed/nerfed, because regardless of what happens somebody is going to complain (Yeah, let's give Luigi, one of my mains, a F-air that comes out on F1 and has slightly reduced knockback on higher percents and cause the Cyclone to have easier sucking capabilities-clearly, that's what he needs) either due to an idea being incredibly stupid and busted or petty in the eyes of the complainers (Look at Greninja, for example).

Overall, we just have to see where the characters lie once we start making tier lists and get more balance patches added by Nintendo if/when we get more characters to the roster.

 

[Miles_himself]

Gotta specify this town, because there's relatively decent sized Smash 4 scenes in Norman/OKC/Edmond and Tulsa. Average about 22 entrants a weekly.

Im not convinced Sonic is cancer. After all the nerfs he's got he's essentially Brawl Sonic with a killing Fthrow. If Sonic was manageable in Brawl, he should be manageable here.

I live in Muskogee. It's a bit west of Tulsa, I think.

 

[TriTails]

Fix how specials clank and a looot of dumb stuff gets fixed.

Actually, this will fix Luigi problem where ****ing fully charged Green Missile clanks with a random lemon.

Btw, I have an idea to make Luigi not so polarizing design-wise.

Get rid of that D-throw (Make it combo less) or reduce damage. Perhaps slight nerf to Fireballs, but not big. Juuuuust little.

Huge nerf?

Then give him a better ****ing speed. Tons of it.

Honestly, I don't know what possesed them to make Luigi so polarizing in the first place. The design of the character, so to speak, is skewed. He murders the likes of Ganon yet gets destroyed by Mega Man or Pac-Man. Removing his 'murders people when he gets in' but giving him 'erespid that isn't trash' would fix him, a lot.

Of course, I don't speak to everyone across my mansion. I don't think any of them agrees with me, nor even support this idea. This is just an IMO.

 

[Vipermoon]

Honestly, I don't know what possesed them to make Luigi so polarizing in the first place. The design of the character, so to speak, is skewed. He murders the likes of Ganon yet gets destroyed by Mega Man or Pac-Man. Removing his 'murders people when he gets in' but giving him 'erespid that isn't trash' would fix him, a lot.

Of course, I don't speak to everyone across my mansion. I don't think any of them agrees with me, nor even support this idea. This is just an IMO.

That would make the game boring. You need to have those extreme types of characters.

 

[Nu~]

I'm a fan of more versatility. With those extreme types of characters, you have to play within a certain boundary.

 

[TriTails]

Ganon and Sheik weren't enough? A heavy powerhouse yet slow as snail and a fast ninja with bottom tier damage output per hit?

Oh, and also. SolidSense had made a point on how Luigi's CURRENT design is boring. He forces people to camp him. How to beat him???????

Camp. Camp the entire match. Make the match as slow as water dripping down from an empty glass to win.

Fun to watch? No. Not really.

 

[Diddy Kong]

I agree with those Luigi nerfs he should be fixed by his D Throw mostly. And they could nerf some of his aerial's priority and kill power. N Air and F Air especially. He'd still be a solid character after all this.

Also, I still think Diddy is a great character, and if Pikachu can manage to get this perception of being a Top 5 / Top Tier with only ESAM actually representing him, I think Diddy deserves to be just as high. He's well represented, and despite nerfs still very usable. Just extremely technical now, much like ZSS.

 

[TriTails]

I agree with those Luigi nerfs he should be fixed by his D Throw mostly. And they could nerf some of his aerial's priority and kill power. N Air and F Air especially.

F-air kills?????

Uh. Luigi with a killing F-air would be busted already.

He'd still be a solid character after all this.

No. Like I said. He needs a speed buff to compensate. He needs a lot so he doesn't muda one character but get muda'd by another.

 

[hypersonicJD]

Oh lol. And nobody actually payed attention at my Sonic post.

 

[momochuu]

Makes it even more of a kick in the teeth that he was overnerfed due to overhype and the game being new, but meh, it softens the blow a bit for me.

greninja won the very first japanese tournament completely free, and was getting decent results after that, even in the US until the patch. they nerfed almost everything that nietono was getting milege out of in the first tournament he won. usmash being stupid, shurikens invalidating a lot of characters (this move was borderline brawl falco lasers before the patch on a character with greninja's speed and power), and hydro pump being broken (there was no way that move was gonna stay like that in the wii u version, the move was literally not functioning the way it was meant to). it would have gotten worse as his meta developed, because even now greninja still does a lot of damage for such a fast character. even his non-footstool combos do like 20-30+% each (just hitting somebody with a fully charged shuriken is a free 31% on such a good shield poking move).

Greninja is the only case of a once-viable character being made unviable by nerfs.

i swear you change your opinion on greninja every 2 hours. sometimes he's high tier, then he's low tier, then he's completely unviable. its ridiculous. the character is bottom of high tier/very top of mid. this game has a lot of broken/jank/cheap stuff but bottom of high tier isn't an unviable character.

the way they patched the character seems to be par for the course in how sakurai balances characters that have the potential to be extremely dominating, or were dominating (like diddy was). sheik is probably gonna get hit very hard in the next patch. i would be shocked if she wasn't.

 

[Fatmanonice]

I don't think D3 needs drastic buffs. The least Sakurai and Co. could do is make Gordos a little hardier, and I think a lot of us D3s would be happy.

Smooth Criminal

Yes (buff the reflect limit to 20% Sakurai! Put that Sakur-bias to good use!) and make either his fthrow or bthrow a reasonable kill option. It doesn't need to be Ness levels of strong but for a character where grabbing is such a big part of their playstyle, it seems like a glaring omission. Little kids can kill earlier with throws than someone with a hammer the size of a show pony... that makes absolutely no sense to me... I dunno... Utilt getting back some of its Brawl strength would be nice too.

All in all, I don't think anyone needs like an absolute major overhaul aside from Robin. Just some extra kill power, less ending/landing lag for some moves, and better throw options and you can reasonably "fix" a good portion of the cast.

 

[Ffamran]

On another note, Ryu's the only character - I think - who can alter the speed of his linear projectile. Link and Toon Link can't do this with their arrows as they arc instead of always traveling straight. I wonder what kind of impact Ryu's Hadouken travel speeds can do. Scenario: he always has it travel fast to condition the opponent and then suddenly, he uses a slower traveling Hadouken. That could throw off people.

I say this as I'm watching Emblem Lord's Ryu. Didn't know he was on that stream and watched the stream late. Also, what's Ryu's Nair even used for? Rarely see that move.

 

[Diddy Kong]

That would make the game boring. You need to have those extreme types of characters.

Seems like the balance process behind

 

[Mr. Johan]

All I know is that Jigglypuff's Nair beats everything Ryu has except Focus Attack and invincible Shoryuken and it's something I find hilarious.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Considering how good D3's edgeguarding game already is? Nah. His throws already send characters of all weight classes into good range for some of his best setups off the stage. Brawl!Utilt? Would be nice. I dunno, while I feel this iteration of the character is kinda weak, I kinda like the design choices they made this time around.

@ Ffamran

Honestly? Ryu's nair has its uses. Wondering what EL thinks, though.


Smooth Criminal

 

[A_Kae]

On another note, Ryu's the only character - I think - who can alter the speed of his linear projectile. Link and Toon Link can't do this with their arrows as they arc instead of always traveling straight. I wonder what kind of impact Ryu's Hadouken travel speeds can do. Scenario: he always has it travel fast to condition the opponent and then suddenly, he uses a slower traveling Hadouken. That could throw off people.

I say this as I'm watching Emblem Lord's Ryu. Didn't know he was on that stream and watched the stream late. Also, what's Ryu's Nair even used for? Rarely see that move.

What stream are you watching?

Ryu's nair seems to be good in my experience as a quick option out of a short hop, to stop approaches and stuff. You can probably combo into something from it as well. I'm hardly an expert an Ryu, though.

Edit: It's his fastest aerial by far in ending lag.

 

[Smog Frog]

On another note, Ryu's the only character - I think - who can alter the speed of his linear projectile. Link and Toon Link can't do this with their arrows as they arc instead of always traveling straight. I wonder what kind of impact Ryu's Hadouken travel speeds can do. Scenario: he always has it travel fast to condition the opponent and then suddenly, he uses a slower traveling Hadouken. That could throw off people.

I say this as I'm watching Emblem Lord's Ryu. Didn't know he was on that stream and watched the stream late. Also, what's Ryu's Nair even used for? Rarely see that move.

nair is used for setting up weak utilts for a shoryuken at lower %. it's an easy 30% if you can hit it, even more on fast fallers. i've found that if you manipulate the startup(each move starts off as the heavy version, which carries through if you hold the attack button, and you can manipulate the startup by being precise with the timing of the release) you can add in 2 or so utilts.

 

[Ffamran]

@ Ffamran

Honestly? Ryu's nair has its uses. Wondering what EL thinks, though.


Smooth Criminal

Exactly what uses, though? I think I've seen a video where someone used it to extend a combo, but I don't exactly remember. It doesn't help that his Nair sort of looks like his Dair.

What stream are you watching?

Ryu's nair seems to be good in my experience as a quick option out of a short hop, to stop approaches and stuff. I'm hardly an expert an Ryu, though.

Edit: It's his fastest aerial by far in ending lag.

Was watching. I got in when False was in his second match against Chaos, then saw Keitaro go Diddy against Tokyo, got disappointed in Keitaro, saw Chaos's Link and was impressed, then saw Keitaro fight his way through losers bracket with only Falco, was happy, and then watched False murder Keitaro's Falco which lead to Keitaro picking Little Mac for the last round of grand finals. I bet Keitaro was trolling in that last round.

Bracket: http://8wayrun.challonge.com/thebreak315ssb4. Stream: http://www.twitch.tv/8wayrun; I think they're doing Mortal Kombat X, so watch it if you like MKX. Most of the stream's been uploaded here: https://www.youtube.com/user/Jaxelrod/videos. As in right when the stream ended, this was uploaded. Clash Tournaments and VGBC, please be like them.

If you don't mind, Emblem Lord, this was the match I missed on stream since I watched late: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UYh_fNfTur4.

Chaos's Link is pretty good, but I'd like to see more RAR Bairs - in general, a lot of characters have really good RAR Bairs like Greninja, Link, Toon Link, Diddy?, and ZSS -, and Bomb usage. Chaos's Link vs. Nabbit's ZSS and Peach: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TQcMRGlc-4I. The commentators said they felt like Peach loses against Link and anyone with a Zair. Prove them wrong since I don't know Peach that much other than Nabbit recently gave up on Peach according to the commentators and Peach's float is something you must master. Also, more Vegetables usage.

So, Ryu, Peach, Link, and a little of Sheik. Take your pick on who you want to discuss.

 

[hypersonicJD]

I'm honestly having a good time discussing about the Meta. Pretty nice to see other people's opinions.

Anyways, remember the Ryu Combo from his official announcement? I wonder if anyone can actually do the combo in a video or a true match.

 

[Radical Larry]

All I know is that Jigglypuff's Nair beats everything Ryu has except Focus Attack and invincible Shoryuken and it's something I find hilarious.

Link's N-Air beats everything Ryu has, except Shoryuken. It even beats his projectiles and Tatsumaki, and due to its low end lag, Link can hit another attack against Focus Attack. It's actually Link's boot that beats Ryu's attacks.

But what do you guys think on Ryu and Link's MU? I personally believe it'd be even.

 

[meleebrawler]

Link's N-Air beats everything Ryu has, except Shoryuken. It even beats his projectiles and Tatsumaki, and due to its low end lag, Link can hit another attack against Focus Attack. It's actually Link's boot that beats Ryu's attacks.

But what do you guys think on Ryu and Link's MU? I personally believe it'd be even.

What about his disjointed hard utilt?

 

[Smog Frog]

you can do that too, but i like landing the strong shoryuken instead of the weak one because it feels safer.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Nerf Luigi's down throw? Are you guys serious?
I suppose we should nerf Sonic's speed then. And remove monado arts. And make Bowser lighter. And nerf Ness's Nair. And nerf Samus's charge shot. And nerf Bonus Fruit. And make Ganondorf faster. In fact, there should only be one playable character and they should have no attributes.
My point is why remove something that's obviously an intended attribute of the character.
Did they intend for Diddy to get KOs at 80% off a grab? Of course not. So they removed it. Did they intend that for Ness? Yeah, more or less. It's clear that they intended for Luigi to have a powerful combo game, which is kept in check by his ass mobility.

 

[TriTails]

Nerf Luigi's down throw? Are you guys serious?
I suppose we should nerf Sonic's speed then. And remove monado arts. And make Bowser lighter. And nerf Ness's Nair. And nerf Samus's charge shot. And nerf Bonus Fruit. And make Ganondorf faster. In fact, there should only be one playable character and they should have no attributes.
My point is why remove something that's obviously an intended attribute of the character.
Did they intend for Diddy to get KOs at 80% off a grab? Of course not. So they removed it. Did they intend that for Ness? Yeah, more or less. It's clear that they intended for Luigi to have a powerful combo game, which is kept in check by his *** mobility.

Like I said. I'd rather have a balanced character rather than a character that has great combo game but has *** mobility like you said that is a sharp blade on one character yet a dull stick on another.

I said that was MY IDEA. No. I don't expect this to happen in Smash 4. I was just giving something that I have in my head. Nothing more. If they do it, okay. If they don't, fine.

I also didn't say we remove Luigi's down throw without giving him something in return.

 

[Ulevo]

None of the top or high tiers need balancing outside of Sheik. If you're considering those ventures then you likely just need to improve as a player.

 

[hypersonicJD]

I think they should buff Ganondorf more. Give him a bit more of speed but turn down his power a bit. If they did it with Ike. I don't see why not with Ganondorf.

 

[Mr. Johan]

Luigi may be slow and can't cover much horizontal range at once, but his attacks sure don't have that issue. You'd be surprised how hard Luigi Fair wins 50:50s when it forces his prey to jump away from fireballs, or even try and shield approach. Same goes for Bair. And if Luigi messes up that read, no worries, he's ready to Nair immediately after and beat literally everything but an economic crisis. Luigi has full control on a horizontal level.

Either make his dash grab not the size of Kentucky, or tone down those aerials. One or the other imo.

 

[TriTails]

None of the top or high tiers need balancing outside of Sheik. If you're considering those ventures then you likely just need to improve as a player.

What. I don't care how skilled you are. You can't change Luigi's mobility. It has been practiced that you CAN camp him out by Ito's MK. And MK is far from the fastest character in general mobility.

What I am saying is, no characters deserve to be shut down. Luigi shuts down Ganon. Is that balance? No. In return, he gets shut down ROTFL'd by Mega and Pac. Is that balance? No.

You can easily balance those by nerfing his burst damage while buffing his mobility specs. That way he can still tack on damage with fairly high damage output for a middleweight, just not as much as he currently is now. In return, give him faster speed so he can maneuver in the air better, but it is still fairly tricky due to his floaty motif.

Luigi may be slow and can't cover much horizontal range at once, but his attacks sure don't have that issue. You'd be surprised how hard Luigi Fair wins 50:50s when it forces his prey to jump away from fireballs, or even try and shield approach. Same goes for Bair. And if Luigi messes up that read, no worries, he's ready to Nair immediately after and beat literally everything but an economic crisis. Luigi has full control on a horizontal level.

Either make his dash grab not the size of Kentucky, or tone down those aerials. One or the other imo.

B-air can't be used more than once after a shorthop what are you talking about?

And please remember, the moment Luigi takes off to the air, EVERY OF HIS OPTIONS LOSES TO SHIELD. You can easily shield his F-air to N-air and take little shield pushback as you punish.

If you want to tone down his aerials, give him better airspeed. Period. They are currently his greatest assets, toning them down would destroy the whole meaning of the character.

 

[Ulevo]

What. I don't care how skilled you are. You can't change Luigi's mobility. It has been practiced that you CAN camp him out by Ito's MK. And MK is far from the fastest character in general mobility.

What I am saying is, no characters deserve to be shut down. Luigi shuts down Ganon. Is that balance? No. In return, he gets shut down ROTFL'd by Mega and Pac. Is that balance? No.

You can easily balance those by nerfing his burst damage while buffing his mobility specs. That way he can still tack on damage with fairly high damage output for a middleweight, just not as much as he currently is now. In return, give him faster speed so he can maneuver in the air better, but it is still fairly tricky due to his floaty motif.


B-air can't be used more than once after a shorthop what are you talking about?

And please remember, the moment Luigi takes off to the air, EVERY OF HIS OPTIONS LOSES TO SHIELD. You can easily shield his F-air to N-air and take little shield pushback as you punish.

If you want to tone down his aerials, give him better airspeed. Period. They are currently his greatest assets, toning them down would destroy the whole meaning of the character.

Your example is terrible. Ganondorf has a lot of poor match ups. What do we do about those once we have nerfed Luigi? We going to nerf those characters too, just because they invalidate a bad character?

 

[Pazx]

@ TriTails

As much as you love Luigi (it's no secret, he's the only character you ever talk about here) it seems you don't like his design. A strong character with glaring weaknesses is good for the game and interesting. If you want to play Luigi with toned down moves and better mobility, I suggest playing as this character:

Buffing Luigi's mobility and reducing his combo ability and damage output would not "fix" the character, nor does the character need fixing. If you have an issue with him having some skewed matchups then it's on you to either work around them, pick up a secondary, or drop the character entirely for someone more with more balanced matchups in your eyes.

 

[TriTails]

I think people missed my point of it being an idea.

 

[Nu~]

I think people missed my point of it being an idea.

But that idea tells a lot about what you desire in a character. Hence @ Pazx 's suggestion for a character switch.

Your idea would morph luigi's entire gameplan into something he's not.

 

[Ulevo]

Not to mention there is nothing wrong with Luigi. You could argue his reward for making a proper play is too high, I disagree, but he is an example of how characters should be designed in this game. He has good strengths, good weaknesses.

 

[Ghostbone]

What I am saying is, no characters deserve to be shut down. Luigi shuts down Ganon. Is that balance? No. In return, he gets shut down ROTFL'd by Mega and Pac. Is that balance? No.

lol at Luigi getting shut down by megaman
It's a disadvantageous matchup but it's no worse than -2/65:35, Luigi's too good of a character to be shut down.

And please remember, the moment Luigi takes off to the air, EVERY OF HIS OPTIONS LOSES TO SHIELD. You can easily shield his F-air to N-air and take little shield pushback as you punish.

Luigi's aerials are all safe on shield if spaced/timed properly

I think people missed my point of it being an idea.

Yea and your idea is to turn luigi into mario, rather than luigi being his own unique character.

 

[A_Kae]

I think people missed my point of it being an idea.

It's not that people missed the point, it's that they thought your idea was bad. Because it seems you just want Mario.

A character switch does seem to be a good idea for you. Don't try to force yourself to use one character when there's another that does what you want.

 

[Nu~]

lol at Luigi getting shut down by megaman
It's a disadvantageous matchup but it's no worse than -2/65:35, Luigi's too good of a character to be shut down.

Luigi's aerials are all safe on shield if spaced/timed properly



Yea and your idea is to turn luigi into mario, rather than luigi being his own unique character.

I kinda doubt that all of Luigi's aerials are safe on shield. Not only does he lack the range to keep people at bay, but he can't weave in and out well either.

 

[**Gilgamesh**]

Can we all just be thankful that this game isn't in it's version 1.00 where by this time, these 4 characters would have demolished
most of the cast, although you can make a argument for sheik.



Can we please just let the GAME SETTLE before people start complaining about characters 24/7. It's really annoying when a character is constantly getting nerfed to the ground a.k.a (sheik, diddy) the first few nerfs was okay because it was apparent that these characters had insane options/damage output that no one else could even compete with. However constantly nerfing everything that makes a character good is not fun at all; it's not fun for casuals wondering why their favorite character are getting nerfed, nor is it fun for the character mains to have to figure out / adjust to changes in their character. It's much better to apply buffs then nerfs after the first few patches because 1.) They make their mains happy, and 2.) The people who do main top tiers/high ties are happy that they don't have to worry if their character gets changed.....again. Also when I mean by buffing lower tiers I am not stating giving them 5% increased damage or non laggy aerials or outright kill power, but to have some sort of unique trait. For example I would love for to be able to short hop cancel his lasers (only 1 laser not 2) or for to
able to auto cancel their Fairs or for to have a improved missile game (note her uniqueness IMO is missiles but they aren't strong enough for her) or for to have stronger spells to compensate for their major flaws. I always prefer for each fighter to have something unique, a unique trait that makes them able to compete in competitive play, otherwise why play a character like who game evolves around missiles and charge shots when they have to much start-up and cool down, it really blows.. This is why I am interested in , and brawl they each have a unique trait that aids them in a competitive environment at a competitive level.has the trait of being lagless and safe, while has a devastating throw. I'm just sad to see characters like

• Would you complain if she had a better missile game, would it really kill if her missiles were a legit threat.
• I would love to see Short Hop Laser (1 Laser not 2) (same can be applied to although he's already good to begin with), in fact when I was first getting into competitive smash I was legit thinking of using Falco because of the fact I heard he was able to use lasers effectively so I thought to myself "a character that uses lasers that's so cool I am definitively going to use him" until I was told he could no longer cancel his lasers and to find that he was lackluster in smash 4 as well .
  
• Who doesn't want a good swordsman in a fighting game? I know I do and again I was interested in picking these characters up because I knew before hand that these characters (rather Marth lol) had good range and were mobile, now their laggy in general and doesn't get too much reward from a grab.
• Now I am sure many would more inclined to main him/her if they just didn't have to many flaws and not enough pro's to make up for it. Instead of improving anything else, they could just improve their spells power, start-up or even cool down to really make you feel like a real mage.....

I actually got interested into competitive smash because of Brawl/Melee videos (note I knew about competitive smash for 3 years, I just finally made an account on smashboards after getting more serious into smash) showcasing characters that had traits that inherently made them a solid pick. I grew interested into playing these characters not because THEY WERE GOOD, but because they had a unique trait that I liked that enhanced them and made them threats. My wishes are a fleeting dream, but this is why I prefer buffs to lower tier characters who's traits doesn't make them threats. Buffing lower/mid like this wouldn't make the game OP but rather, these unique characters would be able to be solid in a competitive setting.I just want my Short Hop laser Falco or Missile Samus

 

[Yonder]

I personally love Luigi in Smash 4's archetype of combo heavy, slow as heck, yeah many moves with random, incredible strength [misfire, fire uppercut] and super odd priority [0 on green missile...unlimited on nair]. He's awkward to use and play against...he's Luigi. Hardly anything with him is right down the middle for a middle weight, everything is usually gravitated towards a baseline for mid weights almost. With Luigi? Go BIG or go home.

But, for the 2nd part of my post, why do I keep walking into "Luigi needs nerfs" posts, I still do not get. Did people not see how hard Luigi can be camped out at CEO vs Samus? Yes, Larry was unfamiliar with the matchup and Luigi vs Samus may be a hair in Luigi's favor, but it still shows a talent like Esam or any top player is going to get better at camping out Luigi as the metagame goes. Why people don't camp Luigi harder is beyond me. But on the other side of the coin, Luigi can outcamp a lot of characters himself, surprisingly. I went to a tournament not long ago, and as a new style and experiment instead of just charging in with Luigi like I usually do, I played safe, and my gameplay stuck of 90% fair and fireball with a nair or grab if they got close. That's it. And it worked fairly well, against select characters. Versing Diddy and Kirby - two characters Luigi definitely has an advantage on 60:40, my opponent never made it close. Luigi outrange and out camped Kirby [resulting in a very vocal salty player...] and Diddy was unable to get close either when fireball neutralized banana. Oh the destruction when Luigi got a nanner in his hands...Sheik tier. But when I versed Lucas and ROB? I got killed. They outcamped Luigi hard, Luigi just cannot get past PK fire when does splash damage if it clanks with fireball against Luigi, along with stick and magnet to heal or launch right back. And ROB? Luigi cannot get near with gyro and beam attacking him along with well placed nairs. Granted fireball is nice against gyro...still not a good matchup. As the metagame progresses, characters like Sheik, ZSS, Sonic, they are faster and will progress more. Characters like Luigi, the oddity in top tier for being the only slow character, will require a secondary and will not be able to do it on his own. Rosalina isn't super fast but she's like playing 2 characters and has amazing customs so she's a special case. Tl;dr: Luigi doesn't need nerfs, again, camp him out, he will rely on a secondary more and more as time progresses. Solo Luigi will be a thing of the past, but Luigi will remain a high tier at least due to choice strong top tier matchups and incredible frame data. And a general point to close off, the last patch did it right. It buffed the low tiers like Charizard, Falco, Marth to mid tier status and left the top tiers sides Diddy alone. It is ALWAYS a better choice to buff lower tiers than nerf top tiers. Personally the only thing needed a nerf is Sheik's neutral and Roy's f smash...