Character Competitive Impressions

[hypersonicJD]

This guy isn't having bad ideas. They should make Samus Dash Attack, into Up Air, into Fair a true combo. Or even just her down grab into Fair should be a true combo. Or have her Down Tilt actually kill. Or make her have a better roll.

With Falco I don't have any complains. He's good as he is right now for me. But I wouldn't mind a hitbox increase on his Up Air.

 

[Ikes]

I think people missed my point of it being an idea.

lets just give luigi F.L.U.D.D and a cape
and make his fair slow

 

[Man Li Gi]

Honestly, for Ganon, I don't think increasing his mobility will change much. What he needs is less startup and end lag on his moves as well as more reach (like maybe not have a good amount of his moves be crouchable or maybe attach like a dark sphere to his moves). He also suffers for having moves that require him to extend his hurtbox. Maybe for those moves, as long as there's a hitbox, make his limbs (or just the parts with the armor on it) invincible .

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Give Ganon some of his Brawl shenanigans back. He doesn't really need anything else.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Mr. Johan]

Robin would go a long way if Arcfire was tweaked so that it produces a quakebox with Fire Wall-esque knockback in between Robin and the Fire pillar when the pillar contacts the ground. A simple forward roll would no longer be enough to get through it, and Robin can still only throw it out six at a time.

 

[Ikes]

so does zeldas dtilt combo into fair at 70+ %?
testing it in training vs shulk and it seems to work and even kill at 85 or so if sweetspotted
does zelda have any notable dtilt setups? cause nair is working too

 

[NairWizard]

It is ALWAYS a better choice to buff lower tiers than nerf top tiers.

If you have an issue with him having some skewed matchups then it's on you to either work around them, pick up a secondary, or drop the character entirely for someone more with more balanced matchups in your eyes.

Not responding to either of your posts in particular, just to general trends I keep seeing:

The ideal fighting game is one in which each character has 50:50 matchups with the rest of the cast but still has a unique set of strengths and weaknesses. In practice, we can never achieve this ideal because (especially with this many characters) slight imbalances will happen, and some characters will naturally pull ahead of others, but balance patches do allow us to come closer to the ideal. Maybe we can't get to 100% 50:50s, but mostly 50:50s, a bunch of 55:45s, and some 60:40s isn't an unreasonable goal. The burden of implementing such changes is entirely on Nintendo, of course, and our discussions here are unlikely to influence them on that front, but it's important to keep some perspective on what we consider competitively healthy.

Some people praise the idea of a "counterpick" metagame, but in reality a counterpick metagame is not competitively healthy: I should never be more likely to beat you just because I picked X and you picked Y, because this leads to randomness in the outcome of a set. Examples: on a blind first pick, maybe I pick Meta Knight, and you pick Little Mac; or maybe you and I are both playing Brawl Falco, but you get a bracket full of Snakes and I get a bracket full of Ice Climbers.

These situations undermine both skill and matchup knowledge in determining tournament results--and yes, matchup knowledge is more important when matchups are even than when one side wins decisively (given that character diversity is equal in both cases) as the burden of knowing the matchup is spread equally across both players.

While we don't live in an ideal world, let's at least not suggest that it's a good thing for Luigi to have polarizing matchups. Polarizing strengths and weaknesses, on the other hand--to be sure that is a good thing in terms of competition (whether or not camping is the end result).

In the ideal world, Luigi wouldn't beat Ganon 65:35, nor would he get beaten by Megaman 65:35, but he would still retain his low mobility and high reward on hit. How to achieve better ratios? Usually the answer isn't simple, as it isn't in this case: buffing his mobility or nerfing his reward anything more than slightly makes him lose his archetype, and not buffing/nerfing enough leaves the matchup dynamics untouched. I proposed a tether grab for Luigi earlier, which would allow him to get around his bad mobility/traction in certain situations but increase the risk that he takes to get a reward. That might or might not end up being effective, but often significant design changes like those are needed to balance a character's matchups.

As a corollary, sometimes nerfing top tiers is better for matchup ratios across the cast than buffing low tiers, as by buffing low tiers you may make certain mid tier characters' matchups much harder without improving their own top tier matchups.

@Thinkaman because this is an issue of game design philosophy, and I value his thoughts on those topics.

 

[Nabbitnator]

Exactly what uses, though? I think I've seen a video where someone used it to extend a combo, but I don't exactly remember. It doesn't help that his Nair sort of looks like his Dair.


Was watching. I got in when False was in his second match against Chaos, then saw Keitaro go Diddy against Tokyo, got disappointed in Keitaro, saw Chaos's Link and was impressed, then saw Keitaro fight his way through losers bracket with only Falco, was happy, and then watched False murder Keitaro's Falco which lead to Keitaro picking Little Mac for the last round of grand finals. I bet Keitaro was trolling in that last round.

Bracket: http://8wayrun.challonge.com/thebreak315ssb4. Stream: http://www.twitch.tv/8wayrun; I think they're doing Mortal Kombat X, so watch it if you like MKX. Most of the stream's been uploaded here: https://www.youtube.com/user/Jaxelrod/videos. As in right when the stream ended, this was uploaded. Clash Tournaments and VGBC, please be like them.

If you don't mind, Emblem Lord, this was the match I missed on stream since I watched late: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UYh_fNfTur4.

Chaos's Link is pretty good, but I'd like to see more RAR Bairs - in general, a lot of characters have really good RAR Bairs like Greninja, Link, Toon Link, Diddy?, and ZSS -, and Bomb usage. Chaos's Link vs. Nabbit's ZSS and Peach: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TQcMRGlc-4I. The commentators said they felt like Peach loses against Link and anyone with a Zair. Prove them wrong since I don't know Peach that much other than Nabbit recently gave up on Peach according to the commentators and Peach's float is something you must master. Also, more Vegetables usage.

So, Ryu, Peach, Link, and a little of Sheik. Take your pick on who you want to discuss.

I still use peach. She doesnt have an answer to zair. Maybe except for holding a turnip to throw at his recovery. She has a very hard time getting in on zoners since she doesnt have a very effective zone breaker. Once she does gets in she can do a lot of damage but she has to stay in which i failed to do. Recently i chose to use zss and peach as a combination since i cant just go around soloing peach as a player.

 

[Ffamran]

For example I would love for to be able to short hop cancel his lasers (only 1 laser not 2)

You do not want Falco to auto-cancel his Blaster. You don't want Fox to do it either, especially if it they could auto-cancel their custom Blasters too. This was modified, but if Fox had his 64 Blaster in Melee, he would destroy even harder: https://youtu.be/kYnfUlKc1nc. Now, imagine Fox being able to auto-cancel Impact Blaster aka his 64 Blaster custom.

Falco being able to auto-cancel his Blaster allowed him the ability to advance while throwing out a projectile. Why in the hell he could rapid-fire it is beyond me. They made it travel faster, the rate of fire faster, and travel farther in Brawl. Are you kidding me!? Brawl Falco limited your options to get hit by lasers that caused hit stun. Not just on the ground, but in the air. Short hop lasers at least covered either or, but short hop double lasers? You can't glide or you ain't Jigglypuff, and you were ******. Hell, if you're tall like Ganondorf, you were screwed no matter what. Add in how Brawl functioned, the existence of chain-grabbing, and Falco's frame 5, strong Dair spike, and you had a character that cheesed the hell out of Brawl. Brawl Falco was the dirtiest character to ever exist in a fighting game.

I firmly stand that if Falco could auto-cancel his Blaster, his lasers would make Sheik's Needles look fair. Needles have end lag, albeit, little end lag, but no end lag, consistent 3%, travels about 2/3's of Final Destination, and on a character with numerous kill tools and high damage output when he can combo? Hell no. He'd make Luigi and pre-patch Diddy look like honest characters. He would invalidate everyone with low mobility if not limit their options badly. He would make campy Sonic, Villlager, Mega Man, and Sheik play look hella interesting and fair gameplay. The fact that Melee and Brawl Falco walked or ran alongside lasers is huge if Smash 4 Falco could do this. Falco's approach is bad, but relative to the rest of the cast who don't really have overwhelming approaches or abilities to force approaches. Sure, Sonic can hold Spin Dash, Captain Falcon can rush in, and Mario can throw out retreating Fireballs, but nobody, not even Sheik can move alongside a spammable projectile like that. I don't know where a Falco with auto-cancel Blaster would be in Smash 4, but I know he would be the most hated character in the game.

What Falco needs, ironically, is Wolf's Blaster. What do I mean? The end lag. Shorter end lag similar to Wolf's Blaster or Luigi's Fireballs would benefit him immensely. Like I say a lot, slap Fox's Impact Blaster with Falco's current knockback on his Blaster on Falco and he would be a much better character. Falco doesn't need a "high" rate of fire or even need to be able to fire continuously. Luigi, Wolf, Sheik, and more can fire their projectiles "rapidly" and they have one press, one shot-only projectiles. You could give Falco a "neutered" Hadouken and as silly or awesome as that may be, he would fare better by having a projectile with lower end lag despite not being able to fire his projectile continuously like Fox.

Lowered end lag seems more plausible as none of the patches have touched weight, fall speed, air speed, etc.

 

[**Gilgamesh**]

What the meaning of my post was for Falco to be able to keep his laser cancelling with only 1 laser in a balanced way. As a viewer, I saw this as cool and would like for it to be kept in the game in a balanced way. The purpose of my post was for character uniqueness. Falco lasers was really cool to watch regardless if it was broken, and I would like for it to be kept in the game but for it to be fair. Any one of these buffs to Samus, Robin, Falco that I mentioned, could make them broken/OP, but that is why I said I wanted them to be Solid. The Falco part was just support that backed up my message to character uniqueness

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Buff the underwhelming characters ()
Tweak some top tiers ( make needles startup 16f, but reduce the endlag and increase needle count).

Done.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Why do you people want Marcina to have grab reward?

Do you want Roy to not matter? Also why do you ask for auto cancel fair? Do you mean a real autocancel meaning the move can cancel into regular land frames while its STILL active? Cuz Marth has that in Brawl with nair and you guessed it, it was one of the main reasons he invalidated chars like Mario. Could not get in for ANYTHING!!

You people are asking for buffs when you dont even understand the ****ing game.

Ryu's nair is just for holding my space. It's also fast and beats alot of normals.

Of course you don't see other Ryus use it. They suck.

I suck too though. Well vs Sheik anyways.

 

[Speed Boost]

We should rename this thread to "Character Balancing Ideas and Opinions."

I have been playing some Mii Swordsman lately and I think he is one of the best sword characters in the roster. I use 2232, 1232, or 3232. I can't decide which nuetral B I like best, but his normals are pretty damn good. He has lots of kill moves outside of his smashes; UAir, FAir, BAir, FTilt.

Up B #3 has good knockback with a grounded hit and kills around 110% near the edges. His up and forward smashes also kill and have little cool down. Is there any reason Mii Sword is not a solid mid tier character?

 

[Shaya]

If you're going to post balance suggestions, it better come with logic/backing information. The result of not having a standard/etiquette rule for it is just as bad as letting tier list posts without the same. Reading the past 2-3 pages, the similarities / devolution of some of these posts are pretty hard to differentiate (not too many posts here have been bad, thank you wise ones).

It's easily distracting, it's easily useless crap not worth reading, and unless you extensively play as or against/main the character at tournament level (I am sorry to all the people this may offend, but for probably 90-95% of those it's right to) you probably have no idea what would be good for said character and the game's health in general. So calm yourselves down and be more rational.

Or I will kill you. Very quickly. Starting now.

tl;dr Up the quality of your posts in this conversation or don't post them. Show understanding of the problem before suggesting fixes.

 

[san.]

We should rename this thread to "Character Balancing Ideas and Opinions."

I have been playing some Mii Swordsman lately and I think he is one of the best sword characters in the roster. I use 2232, 1232, or 3232. I can't decide which nuetral B I like best, but his normals are pretty damn good. He has lots of kill moves outside of his smashes; UAir, FAir, BAir, FTilt.

Up B #3 has good knockback with a grounded hit and kills around 110% near the edges. His up and forward smashes also kill and have little cool down. Is there any reason Mii Sword is not a solid mid tier character?

Default swordfighter has underwhelming movement specs (outside of WALK) and most tournaments also force default size and 1111 specials

Outside of movement, swordfighter's attacks are quite good. Frame 4 counter, frame 4 invincible upB, gale strike that goes through many projectiles, a combo throw, and some good normals. Dtilt, jab, uair, dair, and utilt are all really good. The improved nair, fair, and dash attack are decent. Bair is alright. The other smashes and tilts have their niche uses. Tiny swordfighter is a combo machine with no range, which is a pretty unique quirk.

Biggest weaknesses for me are that fair is awkward to use since it's a little slow to come out, bair doesn't have much range, and the dash->shield transition is pretty slow. The awkward fair and bair makes the air speed disadvantage even more noticeable. I find myself using his great walk and ground normals than spacing in the air. Swordfighter's dash speed is also decent with minimum weight. Unlike fair, bair has a lot more kill power, though. I hope that fair's startup is improved by 2-3 frames and bair's startup is improved by 1 frame.

 

[Speed Boost]

Default swordfighter has underwhelming movement specs (outside of WALK) and most tournaments also force default size and 1111 specials

Outside of movement, swordfighter's attacks are quite good. Frame 4 counter, frame 4 invincible upB, gale strike that goes through many projectiles, a combo throw, and some good normals. Dtilt, jab, uair, dair, and utilt are all really good. The improved nair, fair, and dash attack are decent. Bair is alright. The other smashes and tilts have their niche uses. Tiny swordfighter is a combo machine with no range, which is a pretty unique quirk.

Biggest weaknesses for me are that fair is awkward to use since it's a little slow to come out, bair doesn't have much range, and the dash->shield transition is pretty slow. The awkward fair and bair makes the air speed disadvantage even more noticeable. I find myself using his great walk and ground normals than spacing in the air. Swordfighter's dash speed is also decent with minimum weight. Unlike fair, bair has a lot more kill power, though. I hope that fair's startup is improved by 2-3 frames and bair's startup is improved by 1 frame.

Yeah, I forgot to mention how much I like Mii Swords NAir. I use SH FF Nair to space on shield as a mixups and I also use it out of shield quite a bit.

You are right about FAir, it's really only viable as a combo finisher and edgeguarding tool because of how long it takes to come out, kinda like Greninja's FAir in that respect. They are both also very strong. Also much like Greninja, Falco or Mario you end up using a lot of NAir and BAir where it would be nice to have a quicker FAir.

UTilt is also an amazing tool for juggling and out of spotdodge to get people in the air for UAir followups. Oh, and UAir has crazy knockback. It kills like Diddy's UAir at release.

I haven't really used his walk much I play him a lot like I do Pit in the ground. I use a lot dash mixups to bait out defensive options and punish with dash grab, dash attack and dash JC Up B. I'm gonna try using his walk more now that you've mentioned it.

 

[Daidarapochi]

so does zeldas dtilt combo into fair at 70+ %?
testing it in training vs shulk and it seems to work and even kill at 85 or so if sweetspotted
does zelda have any notable dtilt setups? cause nair is working too

Character dependent. Falling Nair into FW elevator is trueon everyone I think.

 

[PMMikey]

What exactly is wrong with Lucario? I mean yeah his smash attacks have a lot of start up but like he has great combo potential and great recovery. I guess his speed is pretty slow but like he has good range game and a solid neutral but yet I hardly ever see him in the meta.

 

[ILOVESMASH]

What exactly is wrong with Lucario? I mean yeah his smash attacks have a lot of start up but like he has great combo potential and great recovery. I guess his speed is pretty slow but like he has good range game and a solid neutral but yet I hardly ever see him in the meta.

I'm pretty sure the reason he's considered bad is due to his neutral being poor.

 

[PMMikey]

I'm pretty sure the reason he's considered bad is due to his neutral being poor.

I feel like his neutral is pretty good, but maybe I'm just crazy

 

[Nysyr]

What exactly is wrong with Lucario? I mean yeah his smash attacks have a lot of start up but like he has great combo potential and great recovery. I guess his speed is pretty slow but like he has good range game and a solid neutral but yet I hardly ever see him in the meta.

You have to play for a while to understand his flaws fully, but a simple way is to put him side by side against the top tiers and look at their frame data really.

Combo's don't mean much when a 5 hit string out of a grab only nets you 20%.

 

[PMMikey]

You have to play for a while to understand his flaws fully, but a simple way is to put him side by side against the top tiers and look at their frame data really.

Combo's don't mean much when a 5 hit string out of a grab only nets you 20%.

True, but what are MAJOR problems that he has?

 

[Dabuz]

Lucario is really good, he just needs a top level player to pick him up...

 

[Smog Frog]

Lucario is really good, he just needs a top level player to pick him up...

care to explain? most of us here are very doubtful of claims made without evidence.

 

[Deleted member]

Good Lucario's love their Aura Sphere ledge trap. Just charging Aura Sphere by the edge forces the opponent to roll on stage or get hit by the charge into a Usmash, and the roll is punished by throwing the sphere. Other than that I don't really know what Lucario has outside of high percent Aura Sphere being one of the best moves in the game.

 

[Nysyr]

Good Lucario's love their Aura Sphere ledge trap. Just charging Aura Sphere by the edge forces the opponent to roll on stage or get hit by the charge into a Usmash, and the roll is punished by throwing the sphere. Other than that I don't really know what Lucario has outside of high percent Aura Sphere being one of the best moves in the game.

Mmm that's half true, some characters can't deal with it that well, but you just need to drop down then plank with aerials. Lucario doesn't have a sure fire way to hit people on the ledge other than Aura sphere fully charged past a certain %.

 

[bc1910]

i swear you change your opinion on greninja every 2 hours. sometimes he's high tier, then he's low tier, then he's completely unviable. its ridiculous. the character is bottom of high tier/very top of mid. this game has a lot of broken/jank/cheap stuff but bottom of high tier isn't an unviable character.

I literally laughed out loud. There is no way, no WAY, you of all people can call me out for this. You spend half your time in the Skype group complaining about Greninja and how much he sucks, how you lose to random characters with him and more. The other half you're saying he's actually good. One minute you're switching to Pikachu, the next minute Greninja's got what it takes.

I admit that I do change my mind sometimes, I have even said he sucks out of anger (though you can't use that as ammunition since you've called him bottom tier in the same vein) but I am more consistent in my opinion than you are. I usually maintain that he's a decent/good character who was overnerfed, and I already said that I don't think he's unviable, it's iust his results that make it seem that way.

Don't be a hypocrite.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

care to explain? most of us here are very doubtful of claims made without evidence.

Unless the claims are about something they don't know how to deal with

 

[Minordeth]

Exactly what uses, though? I think I've seen a video where someone used it to extend a combo, but I don't exactly remember. It doesn't help that his Nair sort of looks like his Dair.


Was watching. I got in when False was in his second match against Chaos, then saw Keitaro go Diddy against Tokyo, got disappointed in Keitaro, saw Chaos's Link and was impressed, then saw Keitaro fight his way through losers bracket with only Falco, was happy, and then watched False murder Keitaro's Falco which lead to Keitaro picking Little Mac for the last round of grand finals. I bet Keitaro was trolling in that last round.

Keitaro didn't really have an answer for Sheik, although with new Falco, he may not have had the time to lab one out. His Falco otherwise is pretty impressive. It's always fun seeing a Grand Finals where a top tier plays against a widely-held "bottom tier" character. Although, at this point, I think Falco's different game plan gives him the tools to compete on a tournament level. I mean, those follow ups out of up air were looking pretty sweet.

Bracket: http://8wayrun.challonge.com/thebreak315ssb4. Stream: http://www.twitch.tv/8wayrun; I think they're doing Mortal Kombat X, so watch it if you like MKX. Most of the stream's been uploaded here: https://www.youtube.com/user/Jaxelrod/videos. As in right when the stream ended, this was uploaded. Clash Tournaments and VGBC, please be like them.

Those commentators were ridiculous. I mean, calling perfect pivots "useless" is hilarious. Pivot grabs, smashes, and tilts will only become more useful as the meta evolves. I mean, seriously. Also, the bizarre distinction between Zero being a Sheik player vs a good player is not mutually exclusive. He used Sheik when the cards were down. He has kept Sheik as a main since Smash 4 was a thing. He is a Sheik player. He is also a great player. God.

If you don't mind, Emblem Lord, this was the match I missed on stream since I watched late: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UYh_fNfTur4.

Emblem Lord clearly putting in time at the lab. Just goes to show that Ryu requires a ton of time to even get functional, not to mention usable in a tourney setting. Only place to go is up with that guy.

Chaos's Link is pretty good, but I'd like to see more RAR Bairs - in general, a lot of characters have really good RAR Bairs like Greninja, Link, Toon Link, Diddy?, and ZSS -, and Bomb usage. Chaos's Link vs. Nabbit's ZSS and Peach: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TQcMRGlc-4I. The commentators said they felt like Peach loses against Link and anyone with a Zair. Prove them wrong since I don't know Peach that much other than Nabbit recently gave up on Peach according to the commentators and Peach's float is something you must master. Also, more Vegetables usage.

I wish Chaos would have pulled Link out in the matches with Keitaro. Going Bowser begged for a super sized combo food game. Zair would have given him more options to keep Falco out, not to mention the addition of frame traps and a (new) potent mid-range game. Link's zair wall can stuff more characters than Peach...

 

[Hippieslayer]

Swordfighter is pretty beast in teams. Issues with range and getting in are mitigated and the characters massive damage output (it really is MASSIVE) and high kill power shine.Any ideas on who would make the best partner from him? GnW seems like an obvious one.

 

[momochuu]

I literally laughed out loud. There is no way, no WAY, you of all people can call me out for this. You spend half your time in the Skype group complaining about Greninja and how much he sucks, how you lose to random characters with him and more. The other half you're saying he's actually good. One minute you're switching to Pikachu, the next minute Greninja's got what it takes.

so, i can't play more than one character? especially when i main a character like greninja, who flat out can't compete with characters that can rapidly throw out fast, high priority aerials (sheik, mario, etc), and my secondary is the character i mained in the last game?

i play two characters because i don't feel like dealing with characters that can just toss out moves and not let me play by my terms, when i can just press dsmash with pikachu and keep them honest (instead of having to constantly do pivot fsmashes and perfect pivot ftilts and other nonsense). greninja probably can deal with this, i just don't feel like dealing with it which is a probably more of a personal thing than being greninja's fault.

and I already said that I don't think he's unviable

you literally just did in your last post here lol.

you responded to like, two sentences in my post, so i'm going to assume i was right.

 

[Shaya]

Bunny/bc plz.
Take it to private messages if you have to continue.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Thoughts on Ryu vs Sheik

Ryu does not care about Sheiks buttons. When Walnut tried to play footsies he got bodied. Ryu simply hits too hard and his normals have disjoints. But when it dawns on the Sheik player to simply respect Ryu and wait it out, then the issues arise. Now Ryu is forced to rely on alot of empty baiting and in the process open himself up to needle pressure. Good thing is he lives FOREVER vs her and she has hard time finishing him without a good edgeguard. She can ignore alot of his trap set-ups thanks to Bouncing Fish so baiting that is key so he can punish. In zoning Ryu can actually come out on top. Sheik will eat a hadouken as Ryu eats needles and she only breaks even if she has them fully charged as long as he is not in range for the full damage on needle storm.

In the end it's just the fact that she does not have to commit and can wait and eventually Ryu must act. (If he doesnt have life lead.)

Next time I am winning I'm not going to do a damn thing. Just gonna stand there till she comes to me.

Still more training is needed.

"The journey has just begun"

 

[bc1910]

you responded to like, two sentences in my post, so i'm going to assume i was right.

I don't think you're right but I can't be bothered to argue over Greninja nerfs for the umpteenth time, everyone knows my position by now and it's not going to change. And you talked about switching mains, not co-maining. Regardless, Shaya is right.

-----

With regard to Ryu vs Sheik, do his super hard punishing combo starters (light jab, Utilt and Dtilt) have any/enough disjoint to compete up close?

@ Speed Boost To be fair (ololol), Greninja'a Fair has huge range and fairly low landing lag so it has a lot of utility for spacing. It's much better than typical slow Fairs like Mario and DK's. Though yeah it is generally nice to have a fast move to defend your front in the air. Also Falco's Fair was just buffed in startup I think, so it has some nice utility.

 

[PUK]

They don't have disjoint at all. None of ryu moves are fully disjointed lol

 

[Fatmanonice]

What exactly is wrong with Lucario? I mean yeah his smash attacks have a lot of start up but like he has great combo potential and great recovery. I guess his speed is pretty slow but like he has good range game and a solid neutral but yet I hardly ever see him in the meta.

His playstyle is basically a giant Catch 22. His recovery is great but it's predictable and if you land on stage (whether intentionally or by accident), it has so much ending lag that most opponents can pretty much take their pick with a punish. He has great combo potential but only at low percentages and how far opponents get knocked back with attacks changes as his aura increases so it's literally a moving target for what can and will work against different characters. Aura/rage is deadly and he can nab surprise kills as low as 50/60% but he's typically one strong attack away from losing it all and having to work his way back up again when he's like this. He's not bad, he's just very high risk, high reward and it takes a ton of patience to play as him well.

 

[wedl!!]

if you want to figure out why is essentially unviable play the matchup

(no combos after like 60%, low damage output from combos, terrible neutral, low mobility, etc)

 

[mintberrycrunch13]

This guy isn't having bad ideas. They should make Samus Dash Attack, into Up Air, into Fair a true combo. Or even just her down grab into Fair should be a true combo. Or have her Down Tilt actually kill. Or make her have a better roll.

Fwiw, dash attack - > uair - > fair and dthrow - > fair are already true combos (depending on percentage/rage). I think fixing Samus's usmash was a great step forward for the character, and a few more little things like jab actually combing into itself, a throw that that kills at any point before ~160‰, and maybe screw attack killing a little earlier would go a long way towards pushing Samus firmly into mid/upper mid tier (although I already believe she is low mid so take what I say with a grain of salt I guess).

I really don't think I could sufficiently convey my excitement when I saw Esam pull out Samus at CEO, I really would love love to see more of her in actual tournament settings.

 

[thehard]

So there was no Xanadu stream last night due to MIA GimR, but Tantalus uploaded the replays to his channel. Of note: Mik!'s Gunner vs. Boss in GFs (customs week) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=erONkJ2poBE

Wouldn't be surprised if Mik! was inspired by ESAM's CEO Samus pick when fighting Luigi.

 

[Zelder]

San (or maybe Ryo?) went Gunner against Boss's Luigi at a different weekly and showed that Gunner can kind of give Luigi a rough time. Probably inspired by that, if I had to guess.