Character Competitive Impressions

[PUK]

Perfect shield exists. Until ROB actually gets a hit in neutral and is given the space to pick up the Gyro, his projectiles are near worthless, frankly. And Ganon actually outranges him and does like 3x as much damage.

pls, it's funny to say that on the MU thread, or in the zelda social, but here you're supposed to be serious. At least a minimum.
The range argument works with zelda or kirby, ROB has projectile so he doesn't care of your height. The damage argument works against Kirby too, but not against a character which will rekt you from afar and in close combat

 

[A2ZOMG]

pls, it's funny to say that on the MU thread, or in the zelda social, but here you're supposed to be serious. At least a minimum.

I'm absolutely serious.

ROB is a terrible character unless your name is OCEAN. Who ACTUALLY abuses Gyro tech correctly. And if you watch him, he rarely ever uses projectiles in neutral except like B reverse Gyro to punish people trying to blitz approach.

Anyone who claims he shuts down Ganon is crazy. If anything, Ganon is more likely to win the matchup because he DOESN'T HAVE TO DO ANYTHING except walk into footsies range and let his better range and damage work for him.

 

[PUK]

ROB is a terrible character unless

quote of the day

 

[A2ZOMG]

quote of the day

What results does ROB even get these days?

ROB has mediocre kill options especially after U-throw nerf (D-throw U-air is hyper dependent on Rage, basically never works for killing unless ROB has extremely low damage), is one of few characters that does like less damage per hit than Mario, really limited landing options, very tall.

He depends almost completely on Gyro tech to not be a joke frankly. And that requires him to first win neutral, where he got nerfed heavily from Brawl.

 

[Pazx]

Agreed, luigi struggles against characters that can force him to approach and likely needs a secondary more than the other top tiers if you want to compete at the highest level. My experience with smash 4 is still a bit limited... which characters are best for countering zoning type characters in general? Do you run with another zoning type fighter and try to win the ranged battle? Or do you use a quick, rushdown character that has an easier time getting in on them?

Also, who do you guys think top level luigis need to run as their secondaries? Larry Lurr did pretty well at CEO with that fox/luigi combo (though luigi is the secondary in that case...)

Let's talk more about Larry Lurr!

Luigi loses to zoning characters who can keep him out, but has very high reward off a grab and is thus strong against shields.
Fox is a fast, rushdown character who is capable of zone breaking (with a reflector to boot) but gets very little from grabs and thus has few answers to good shielding.

This combination of characters is absolutely fantastic really, they complement each other incredible well and I'd say Fox covers a lot of the matchups Luigi struggles with. Vs. Esam was the first real example of someone winning a counterpick war in Sm4sh that I've seen.

Meanwhile I main two characters with incredible grab reward and gimpable recoveries

 

[hypersonicJD]

Sooo... I think a good decision for me could be: + Because I can cover Sonic's bad match-ups with Sheik. And I do love Rush Down characters. I don't want to use Ness though. He's now boring to me with the inclusion of Lucas. I love Lucas so much. I do love the DLC characters (except Mewtwo because I don't have him )

About Luigi and Fox... Luigi is for me a fun character to play and to face. Yes. I'm saying this serious. I don't mind Luigi at all because his fireballs are useless when you use perfect shield and you can dodge Luigi's Grabs easily. Most of the Luigi's I have faced are either really stupid. Or really good. And I can actually win a match againts Luigi with Sonic or even Mario.

Fox on the other hand... *sigh* Many people will hate me so much for this. But I hate Fox in every single one of his appareances in Smash Bros.'He's just a dumb and stupid character to me. Yeah I know, a Sonic main is saying that Fox is stupid. But almost in every single game he has ridiculous combos (N64 and Melee days had Jab 1 into ****ing Up Smash). And now this smash has the Infinite Jab combo. It's just stupid to me.

 

[Project Quarantine]

ROB doesn't zone crap unless you have really bad reaction time. He's first and foremost a footsies character, and his projectiles almost entirely are there for the positive state. Honestly Ganon probably beats ROB because the sheer damage difference and he has BETTER range than ROB.

Using this logic, I reckon you think that ROB is one of the worst characters in the game. There are no slow characters with bad range.

I'm absolutely serious.

ROB is a terrible character unless your name is OCEAN. Who ACTUALLY abuses Gyro tech correctly. And if you watch him, he rarely ever uses projectiles in neutral except like B reverse Gyro to punish people trying to blitz approach.

Anyone who claims he shuts down Ganon is crazy. If anything, Ganon is more likely to win the matchup because he DOESN'T HAVE TO DO ANYTHING except walk into footsies range and let his better range and damage work for him.

You see, not all robs just sit and spam projectiles hoping that their opponent can never get in. Also, this is assuming that two robots with hightened reaction time and lessened mistake rate are playing against each other. A good ROB will overwhelm even a good Ganon just by giving them too many chances to make a mistake.

This argument is like saying Falco is the worst character in brawl and melee

EDIT: About ROBs results, Canada has Boreal Holy who, most recently in tournament, defeated Ally. He is Ally's brother

 

[Nu~]

Using this logic, I reckon you think that ROB is one of the worst characters in the game. There are no slow characters with bad range

Isn't Luigi a prime example of this? And Falco somewhat?

 

[Ikes]

ROB's good i guess, i dont care much cause he's kinda boring

also where's my Donkey Kong discussion at

is he viable without customs, cause I think he could be

 

[Sinister Slush]

With how often he visits this thread and the patch thread, I'm surprised he didn't know about Holy winning against ally.
Or 8bitman beating everyone in Florida and even ESAM in Set 1 of GF but 3-0'd in Set 2. All within the span of 25ish days two ROB's did something more relevant than half the cast.

 

[Speed Boost]

With how often he visits this thread and the patch thread, I'm surprised he didn't know about Holy winning against ally.
Or 8bitman beating everyone in Florida and even ESAM in Set 1 of GF but 3-0'd in Set 2. All within the span of 25ish days two ROB's did something more relevant than half the cast.

I don't have much experience with ROB aside from FG and tournament streams, but from what I've seen he is probably a high tier character. He has the Gyro and the Laser in neutral for zoning and forcing approaches. The gyro seems to have a lot of mixups. 8bitman looked like Allen Iverson the way he was dribbling it all over the stage at CEO.

He has a strong kill throw and a strong kill confirm out of grab with the Robot "hoo-haw". His normals seem to be pretty solid. He has a spike. He has good recovery. I believe his side be has super armor and reflects projectiles, much like Dark Pit's Electroshock.

Not sure what other combos he has or the specifics on this normals, but he seems to be quite strong.

Oh, the way 8bitman was able to handle the Sonic MU made it look like ROB was a counter to Sonic.

 

[A2ZOMG]

With how often he visits this thread and the patch thread, I'm surprised he didn't know about Holy winning against ally.
Or 8bitman beating everyone in Florida and even ESAM in Set 1 of GF but 3-0'd in Set 2. All within the span of 25ish days two ROB's did something more relevant than half the cast.

I don't check a lot of tournament results. So I had a legitimate question.

Using this logic, I reckon you think that ROB is one of the worst characters in the game. There are no slow characters with bad range.



You see, not all robs just sit and spam projectiles hoping that their opponent can never get in. Also, this is assuming that two robots with hightened reaction time and lessened mistake rate are playing against each other. A good ROB will overwhelm even a good Ganon just by giving them too many chances to make a mistake.

This argument is like saying Falco is the worst character in brawl and melee

EDIT: About ROBs results, Canada has Boreal Holy who, most recently in tournament, defeated Ally. He is Ally's brother

See, this is pretty much what I've been saying the whole time. ROB doesn't zone crap with his projectiles. He actually has to play footsies, which he's pretty much just average at before he picks up a Gyro. If you watch OCEAN, one of the best ROBs from Japan, it's actually extremely uncommon for him to use projectiles in neutral. And the reason he wins anything is once he grabs the Gyro, he makes sure to control options and set up confirms with it.

And no, the comparison to Falco doesn't mean anything. Falco actually can BEAT reaction time with his projectiles and shielding is way worse in Melee. It's not even a close comparison at all to how ROB works.

Given Ganon outranges ROB and does drastically more damage, AND also has a pretty easy time trapping ROB's landing options, I'm extremely skeptical he overwhelms Ganon by design.

ROB is overrated and nowhere close to being high tier, like most of the cast. His setups are conditional, and his reward without them is terrible. I imagine Holy and Ally play all the time, so there's bound to be an upset somewhere when they know each others playstyle. Also for the record didn't a Ganon also beat Ally's Mario in tournament not long ago? I would argue that accomplishment by far is circumstantially more significant and telling of the matchup for instance.

Just for reference, Ray_Kalm took 3rd in that one tournament not long ago getting eliminated by Yoh, and I'm kinda aware GanonTB from MI also consistently places top 8 in very large tournaments.

 

[Project Quarantine]

Isn't Luigi a prime example of this? And Falco somewhat?

Those two are exceptions, I guess. Luigi's is mitigated with crazy grab reward and Falco has a decent reflector. In general, I was referring to heavies with bad aerial control as well as bad mobility (but don't respond about Luigi being slow, I have seen enough of that).

 

[Locke 06]

A2's right... Unless ROB has a gyro in hand, how is he zoning ganondorf?

Gyro and laser are tech chase projectiles (really good ones). And item gyro sets up a lot of good traps. But in neutral? He's no toon link.

Better yet, what happens when ganondorf has the gyro in hand? Laser? No.

 

[oldkingcroz]

I don't know where you are getting your info, but ROB has decent killing power. He isn't Ganon or Roy, but your opponent will NEVER live past 170. Most kills will be around 120. This isn't the first time you've brung this up, but you're seriously the only person saying this, A2ZOMG.

He has one of the best spikes in the game. The sweetspot has stupidly good range. Gimping/spiking is kind of a kill option.

Up air is also one of the stronger more useful up airs in the game. It stays out long enough to get air dodges, and has a lot of knockback. On Delfino/Halberd it kills at stupid percents.

Tilts combo into grabs/ airs. That's a plus.

And if you are really desperate, nair kills around 150-170. Bair kills (much earlir) too, but is tough to hit with.

Smash attacks also are decent speed and decent kill power (with dsmash being the most useful). Nothing to write home about.

Oh yeah and Up throw. It may have been nerfed, but it kills at 140-165 depending on the character/ rage.

He is an ok character. I agree with you on the notion that he is not too tier (or high tier), but he just doesn't have trouble killing (like Bowser Jr, Sheik, Game and Watch, Duck Hunt, etc).

 

[hypersonicJD]

Actually. ROB'S best smash has to be Up Smash. That thing is so fast and it kills at good percents (120 or 130. That's why I remember).

 

[Project Quarantine]

A2's right... Unless ROB has a gyro in hand, how is he zoning ganondorf?

Gyro and laser are tech chase projectiles (really good ones). And item gyro sets up a lot of good traps. But in neutral? He's no toon link.

Better yet, what happens when ganondorf has the gyro in hand? Laser? No.

Rob doesn't need to zone at all times. As you said, the gyro and laser are great in the advantaged stance (techchase, traps, edgeguards, etc.). What people forget is that those projectiles can even help ROB approach, whether it be through glide toss, conditioning the shield, or simply threatening options. This (Mario-esque?) approach and strong presence in neutral what makes ROB good, not constant zoning.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I don't know where you are getting your info, but ROB has decent killing power. He isn't Ganon or Roy, but your opponent will NEVER live past 170. This isn't the first time you've brung this up, but you're seriously the only person saying this, A2ZOMG.

He has one of the best spikes in the game. The sweetspot has stupidly good range. Gimping/spiking is kind of a kill option.

Up air is also one of the stronger more useful up airs in the game. It stays out long enough to get air dodges, and has a lot of knockback. On Delfino/Halberd it kills at stupid percents.

Tilts combo into grabs/ airs. That's a plus.

And if you are really desperate, nair kills around 150-170. Bair kills (much earlir) too, but is tough to hit with.

Smash attacks also are decent speed and decent kill power (with dsmash being the most useful). Nothing to write home about.

Oh yeah and Up throw. It may have been nerfed, but it kills at 140-165 depending on the character/ rage.

What's ROB's damage per hit again? Even if his KO percents are technically not extremely far off from someone like say...Link or Ryu on some moves, his damage output is like less than half of theirs without extended Gyro/laser traps. KOing at 140-160 with U-throw is not impressive when your damage per hit is actually worse than Mario's, and you don't have the same followup or combo game.

Keep in mind, this is the reason pre-buff Link sucked, because against a good opponent, you didn't have any option in midrange except grab, and Link had some of the least damaging throws and worst throw setups in the game, meaning even though his U-throw could end stocks around that 140-160 range with some Rage factored, grabbing in general was really awful for Link given it forced him to rack up damage slowly and kill people not early.

ROB's spike sucks against any legitimately good recovery or people that don't DI exceptionally poorly. It's free if your opponent only has one option, but then again basically any character in the game that isn't like Toon Link or something can confirm a kill offstage on someone who DIs poorly. I'm not impressed by an extremely slow spike that also kills your air momentum, which makes its spacing usage extremely telegraphed.

While ROB might have aerials that are technically good against airdodges, it's also worth keeping in mind he has by far some of the worst physics in the game for chasing people in the air. He jumps very high and is extremely floaty. So in actuality if you try to U-air someone that airdodges, they're more likely to fall past you and then you're in a bad position, meaning ROB has to usually wait on the ground or at low altitudes to be in position to follow up on airdodge. Once ROB is at high percents, it's very hard for him to follow up off his throws when Rage causes him to send people too high and they can usually jump away from his followups.

 

[Locke 06]

Rob doesn't need to zone at all times. As you said, the gyro and laser are great in the advantaged stance (techchase, traps, edgeguards, etc.). What people forget is that those projectiles can even help ROB approach, whether it be through glide toss, conditioning the shield, or simply threatening options. This (Mario-esque?) approach and strong presence in neutral what makes ROB good, not constant zoning.

Glide toss requires an item-in hand gyro.
This quote below is what I'm referring to.

ROB doesn't zone crap unless you have really bad reaction time. He's first and foremost a footsies character, and his projectiles almost entirely are there for the positive state. Honestly Ganon probably beats ROB because the sheer damage difference and he has BETTER range than ROB.

ROB's neutral isn't bad, but he risks getting murdered by ganondorf every time ROB goes in.

It's almost like Luigi vs ROB except add weight, range, and less reward off a grab.

Edit: looking at kits alone, it's hard to say it is definitive one way or the other. They both do dirty things to each other.

 

[Radical Larry]

Hey, I find Link's D-Smash extremely useful on opponents who don't perfect shield. It's a go-to attack because it pushes the opponent away and applies heavy shield pressure. I think Link has one of the best shield breaking capabilities in the game. Ganondorf, D3, Marth, Lucina and Bowser definitely beat him, but Link can actually break shields with relative ease if you use him right.

When opponents aren't close enough (and don't have long grabs) and have to shield, Link finds this as a solid opportunity because since the opponent is too far away to grab and is pushed away, all the end lag in his attacks (except Spin Attack) won't matter if the opponent is too far away to retaliate. If they try, Link can spot dodge, grab or roll away.

Link isn't the fastest character, sure, but that surely doesn't hinder him from being a mid-high tier. He does get defeated by some characters, but characters like ROB would have a tough time against him.

Oh, and I'd like to mention that Rage doesn't affect Link aside from his smashes and tilts. He actually still has his combo ability and yet with more knockback, which actually doesn't affect him with his long ranged attacks. I've actually killed around 80% damage with Link's F-Smash on just 87% rage, and it was on a Bowser Jr.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

I'm absolutely serious.

ROB is a terrible character unless your name is OCEAN. Who ACTUALLY abuses Gyro tech correctly. And if you watch him, he rarely ever uses projectiles in neutral except like B reverse Gyro to punish people trying to blitz approach.

Anyone who claims he shuts down Ganon is crazy. If anything, Ganon is more likely to win the matchup because he DOESN'T HAVE TO DO ANYTHING except walk into footsies range and let his better range and damage work for him.

Gtfoh with this garbage you call ROB out for his results yet talk up ganon? I'd put up money that 8 bit man would destroy your ganon with his rob. There's more Rob but to claim it's just Ocean is sm absurd joke and the height of ignorance. Hell there's also holy nightmare. Stop it your embarrassing yourself.

 

[Sinister Slush]

I don't check a lot of tournament results. So I had a legitimate question.

Nobody does, Smashboards is only active in generals like Smash 4 social, Zelda General etc. This and the patch thread are basically generals to talk about tournament results.
You're more likely to find news being talked about in here before leddit threads are made or even the tournament results thread.

 

[Radical Larry]

@ A2ZOMG Seriously, you're acting like I was acting, Radical Larry.

Joking aside, Ganondorf is good against ROB in footsies and close aerial game, but once ROB gets you with the projectile, it's going to hurt. And don't forget, ROB has an RAR B-Air and can edge-guard Ganondorf with that, his projectiles and his aerials. If Ganondorf tries edge-guarding him, he'll probably be hit by ROB as he's recovering unless he uses F-Air or D-Spec (from the stage). ROB isn't a character you should be underestimating, dude.

 

[hypersonicJD]

I do agree with that. Almost everyone is speaking about how to improve some characters and talk about their viability in tournament play.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Gtfoh with this garbage you call ROB out for his results yet talk up ganon? I'd put up money that 8 bit man would destroy your ganon with his rob. There's more Rob but to claim it's just Ocean is sm absurd joke and the height of ignorance. Hell there's also holy nightmare. Stop it your embarrassing yourself.

I don't care who beats me frankly, I never personally claimed to be amazing at this game.

OCEAN is the only ROB that legitimately impresses me, especially since Japan is a strong region, and last I checked on SHI-G basically nobody else was accomplishing anything with ROB. Haven't seen Holy play in a while.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

I don't care who beats me frankly, I never personally claimed to be amazing at this game.

OCEAN is the only ROB that legitimately impresses me, especially since Japan is a strong region, and last I checked on SHI-G basically nobody else was accomplishing anything with ROB. Haven't seen Holy play in a while.

Only Rob that impressess you? Or the only ROB you watch. Japan is a strong region as is the US and I'm fairly the top 5 in the US wouldn't lose to any other regions top 5.

 

[Kofu]

Gyro (I really want someone to shop in a picture of a sandwich for ROB's DSpecial as an aside) is a very powerful tool but it suffers from the same weakness all character-generated items do, in that it can he grabbed by the opponent and another cannot be spawned until it is gone. He can Gyro charge cancel similar to Diddy's Popgun cancel and Sheik's Needle cancel but it basically has to be frame perfect (the other two may have to be as well, I'm not familiar enough with them).

ROB suffers from the same weaknesses he did in Brawl and arguably they're worse now with airdodge and ledge changes, but he got a few particularly nice move buffs (but lost one of his main spacing tools in FTilt). He's still a solid character because there aren't as many oppressive characters this time around.

He gets superficially buffed from Wi-Fi so claims from people who mainly play there that he's really strong/annoying have to be taken with a grain of salt. That said, I do think he is a good character, not great, likely around 20-25, because he gets juggled/comboed hard and has poor OoS options.

One more thing, his projectiles almost feel like they're anti-zoning tools. But no, he can't camp.

 

[Ffamran]

Stop being so hostile with each other. We are here to have civil discussions on characters and their competitive impact. If you want to be kids screaming at each other, get out and go make a PM and scream at each other. Or hell, money match each other and regardless who wins, go cool down somewhere.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Only Rob that impressess you? Or the only ROB you watch. Japan is a strong region as is the US and I'm fairly the top 5 in the US wouldn't lose to any other regions top 5.

I'll just say it again, OCEAN actually abuses Gyro tech really consistently. I don't think any other ROB is on his level, it's always been that way since Brawl frankly.

I bothered to check a more recent video posted of Holy. Nope. He's definitely not OCEAN's level. OCEAN spaces everything way more accurately and hit confirms stuff out of random hits in neutral way more consistently.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

What results does ROB even get these days?

Are you joking

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Stop being so hostile with each other. We are here to have civil discussions on characters and their competitive impact. If you want to be kids screaming at each other, get out and go make a PM and scream at each other. Or hell, money match each other and regardless who wins, go cool down somewhere.

It's not just him but his post set me off. A lot of people write off others when they themselves don't put up half the results. There's a difference between talking about a character and then just writing off the players.

 

[Balgorxz]

luigi's weakness is traction an aerial speed that's why he's so bad against characters like samus even when they are really far one from each other on the tier lists.

 

[ILOVESMASH]

San (or maybe Ryo?) went Gunner against Boss's Luigi at a different weekly and showed that Gunner can kind of give Luigi a rough time. Probably inspired by that, if I had to guess.

Any character with a good keep away or projectile game will most likely give a hard time since he can't grab them, which is where 99% of his success comes from. isn't really unique in that regard.

 

[Vipermoon]

@Emblem Lord

So because you play Ryu and Marth... how does Marth do against Ryu? In my opinion Marth beats Ryu.

Seems like he can DS out of Ryu's Utilt and Dtilt and I know this doesn't matter too much but Ryu does a lot of damage so counter can be useful in this MU. The main reasons, however, is that Marth will outrange/disjoint Ryu and Ryu will be edge-guarded like crazy.

Edit: counter is also good for edgeguarding Ryu's side B

 

[Mr. Johan]

Hi. I like Sonic.

I like grab-releasing to force 50:50s to whether they try to grab or Jab which aren't long enough or are slow enough to get hit by Ftilt and force a bad position, or they try and spotdodge or roll only to get hit by Spindash and eat a lot of damage.

Any other character got something like this?

 

[hypersonicJD]

^Yeah. Captain Falcon is a good example.

 

[Big-Cat]

Hi. I like Sonic.

I like grab-releasing to force 50:50s to whether they try to grab or Jab which aren't long enough or are slow enough to get hit by Ftilt and force a bad position, or they try and spotdodge or roll only to get hit by Spindash and eat a lot of damage.

Any other character got something like this?

I do this with Bowser sometimes. Haven't tested if I can mix it up with his command grab or if it violates the 1 second rule.

 

[A2ZOMG]

@Emblem Lord

So because you play Ryu and Marth... how does Marth do against Ryu? In my opinion Marth beats Ryu.

Seems like he can DS out of Ryu's Utilt and Dtilt and I know this doesn't matter too much but Ryu does a lot of damage so counter can be useful in this MU. The main reasons, however, is that Marth will outrange/disjoint Ryu and Ryu will be edge-guarded like crazy.

I honestly would argue it seems evenish. The disjoint does help Marth a lot in footsies, but Ryu's range is actually pretty similar to Marth's. And tbqh, Ryu's strong dashgrab means he doesn't really have to guess that much against Counter for damage dealing.

Also I personally don't have problems with Marth's edgeguarding as Ryu. Ryu's recovery is one of the stronger ones in this game between FA, Jump+Tatsu, and Shoryuken all being excellent recovery moves.

The main reason though I would argue it's pretty close is Marth's range on his pokes makes it hard for Ryu to safely get in range for hit confirms, and Ryu is pretty punishable on shield and often has to attack preemptively (or rely on Hadoken) to take advantage of his range against Marth's sword.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Hi. I like Sonic.

I like grab-releasing to force 50:50s to whether they try to grab or Jab which aren't long enough or are slow enough to get hit by Ftilt and force a bad position, or they try and spotdodge or roll only to get hit by Spindash and eat a lot of damage.

Any other character got something like this?

I think Wario and Little Mac have great grab release options. For Wario, it can reasonably be followed up by jab, dtilt into another grab or ftilt, or just an ftilt right off the bat. The bike is another option if they try to roll either away or towards you after the release. Little Mac has basically the same options but, as we know, his dtilt is a lot more useful and has better potential follow ups. If your opponent is totally caught off guard, you might even be able to land a KO punch. The only other character I purposely use grab releases with is Iggy because grab release into ftilt at high percentages is a nice surprise kill if you can pull it off.

 

[Vipermoon]

I honestly would argue it seems evenish. The disjoint does help Marth a lot in footsies, but Ryu's range is actually pretty similar to Marth's. And tbqh, Ryu's strong dashgrab means he doesn't really have to guess that much against Counter for damage dealing.

Also I personally don't have problems with Marth's edgeguarding as Ryu. Ryu's recovery is one of the stronger ones in this game between FA, Jump+Tatsu, and Shoryuken all being excellent recovery moves.

The main reason though I would argue it's pretty close is Marth's range on his pokes makes it hard for Ryu to safely get in range for hit confirms, and Ryu is pretty punishable on shield and often has to attack preemptively (or rely on Hadoken) to take advantage of his range against Marth's sword.

I've haven't had trouble gimping the Ryus I friendlied at the last tourney I went to but hey, everyone sucks with Ryu right now. But they were otherwise good players who tried to switch up their recoveries. I mean, it's Marth, how can you avoid him every time? You can't.

Ryu has amazing frame data and really low landing lag (I believe the lowest combined of all characters) so not everything is punishable on shield and for the things that are I usually avoid shield anyway because he has what I think is the fastest shield breaker in the game.

Edit: I partially take back what I said about him being safe on shield in some cases. Ryu has a lot of hitlag on pretty much all of his moves. That makes each of those moves much less safe than they should be.