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Character Competitive Impressions

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Djent

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People tend toward more polarized opinions of their own character's matchups. They possess more knowledge which could potentially sway them away from the default state of "oh, it's evenish I guess." (OTOH less knowledge = less variance in opinion)
 

Smooth Criminal

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Eh, I think my character loses a lot. You're not gonna get any hackneyed baloney from me about how D3 bodies such and such. He's got a lot of bad traits that make him polarizing as hell. If D3 wins any match-up, it's by a slim margin, and I can personally count maybe 4-5 characters in my personal experience that he stands a chance at having that sorta standing with.

I'm hoping that me and the rest of the gang over at the D3 boards can figure things out.

Smooth Criminal
 
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Trifroze

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Why do discussions here often come off so binary.

Almost like the home boy claiming Peach has 60:40 advantage because of a dtilt.
Not sure if this was directed at me or the comment I responded to, but considering you quoted me I'll presume the former. My post was a counter argument to a claim "G&W/Puff/Kirby can just avoid Falcon's dash grab by crouching" and thus quoting me out of context may not be the best way to showcase how discussions come off as binary. I didn't say that dash grab will punish everything or that crouch can't be used to avoid it. I explained how dash grab can punish everything at mid range thus Falcon will sometimes land them, and said that because dash attack hits low crouches you shouldn't always crouch against Falcon's ground approaches just to avoid dash grab, and if you don't always crouch them you will eventually get dash grabbed. I clarified why something is not as simple as claimed, and that is the opposite of binary.

Meanwhile I think quoting people out of context without taking into account the post or subject it was related to is a bigger problem.
 

Steam

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I also probably underrate my character because I understand just how beatable all of his stuff us but most opponents might not.
 

Smooth Criminal

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I also probably underrate my character because I understand just how beatable all of his stuff us but most opponents might not.
One thing I won't do is simply give in. Don't really care if it makes me sound like a low tier hero, but I want to help my character acquire the tools he needs to compete. I know he can do at least that much.

And if I'm proven wrong, welp, it's back to the drawing board.

Smooth Criminal
 

Mazdamaxsti

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If they do that in neutral they'll get hit by Falcon's dash attack every single time instead. On the other hand, as soon as they choose to use shield they'll get exposed to dash grab. It's mostly used for punishes though, i.e. when you cannot act, and it can punish pretty much everything in the game from midrange unless it's a foolproof safe move.

E: What comes to the Lucario matchup, I never called it 50:50, just "roughly even". might be 55:45 Falcon, but I doubt it's 60:40 assuming we're using these numbers in a way where 70:30 means hard counter and nothing beyond that is ever thrown out.

I've said this all a couple times before, but Falcon has to commit to his kills too. Bair and uair are the only non-committing kill moves which Lucario has as well, and although Lucario's bair is 6 frames slower it also hits almost as hard as the knee if he's at 100%+ aura and it's safe to throw out. Falcon has throw setups and juggles to force airdodges but Lucario has ASC to usmash. Falcon shuts down ledge getup options with jab but so does Lucario with ASC, and while you can gimp or punish Lucario after about 60% if you read his recovery, it's not hard for Lucario to gimp Falcon with his massive nair disjoint that up b won't grab through. Neutral is also scary at high percents when Falcon has to guess whether Lucario releases his ASC, shields your approach or just keeps charging it to punish Falcon's shorthop aerials which are his secondary approach option or pressure a possible shield dash-in. Neutral isn't free vs Lucario unless he's way below 100%, but with his survivability and defensive safety he's gonna be above 100% just as often as below that.

I don't think Lucario benefits from customs all that much, his default neutral b is just too good and his other customs don't seem good at all. Snaring Aura Sphere can be scary in disadvantage if Lucario is at high percents, but otherwise you can just shield dash into it on reaction and fsmash Lucario before you get hit by its slowly repeating hitbox. The ASC hitbox also comes out slower on it.
All 3 of the characters I listed can also duck under dash attack, if timed right. So instead of holding down, they could wait till you are close and hold down, nullifying CF's main combo starters. You underrate the power of the duck.
 

Blobface

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So about this hitstun ceiling thing; according to what @ Trifroze Trifroze has tested so far, it seems that higher damage attacks have a much higher hitstun ceiling than lower damage ones. If this is true, it's likely intended to help heavies and other high damage characters combo without giving faster characters insanely long combos.
 

NickRiddle

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Um, yeah.


You're not only wrong, you're missing the point. He got grabbed almost at the centre of Smashville, not 1/4th, and died for it. I do not know what Smash universe you come from, but we do not count the % after the fact when a kill occurs. He wasn't killed at the blast zone, he was dragged in to it. At 29%.

My anecdote does not imply anything. It states what happened.
Smashville happens to have the smallest sides, and ESAM DIed my d-throw poorly.
Had he DIed above me, I would not have gotten him close enough to the blast zone for him to have died... however, it's pretty much guaranteed, if I can follow his DI and not mess up, at about 40.
Smawler is fun.
 

wedl!!

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Why do discussions here often come off so binary.

Almost like the home boy claiming Peach has 60:40 advantage because of a dtilt.
well yea she totally wins because of one move right??? i was totally being serious right???

:4peach:'s gameplan is to pressure heavily with float aerials and turnips. keyword here is pressure. you know, :4mewtwo:'s weakness. it also helps that he's the size of a house and gets hit by everything (aka :4peach: food). :4mewtwo: becomes extremely limited in neutral which is basically how he wants to win the game, so he's screwed.

"homeboy" wow you really got me there
 
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Diddy Kong

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Peach > Mewtwo. But it's actually not all that hard to beat Mewtwo, unfortunately...
 

Quickhero

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well yea she totally wins because of one move right??? i was totally being serious right???

:4peach:'s gameplan is to pressure heavily with float aerials and turnips. keyword here is pressure. you know, :4mewtwo:'s weakness. it also helps that he's the size of a house and gets hit by everything (ie :4peach: food). :4mewtwo: becomes extremely limited in neutral which is basically how he wants to win the game, so he's screwed.

"homeboy" wow you really got me there
If you're going to use sarcasm on the internet, do it right. There are a lot of people on Smashboards that actually say the stuff akin to what you said so how is anybody supposed to know lol?

You could've just posted your actual reasons as to why Peach beats Mewtwo earlier so we would've had something constructive to go off of.
 
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wedl!!

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Peach > Mewtwo. But it's actually not all that hard to beat Mewtwo, unfortunately...
eventhubs doesn't think that so :4mewtwo:still has a chance right?? also my tier list 1) :4falcon: 2) :4link: 3):4littlemac: 4) everyone else 49) :4metaknight: 69) :4dk:
does :4mewtwo: utilt beat :4peach: fair?

not sure, but i'm pretty sure it doesn't (isn't :4mewtwo:'s tail a hurtbox in that move?). i'll test it once i get home.

in response to the :4greninja: discussion, how does he do against :4falcon:?
 

Yikarur

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Mini Mii Brawler is probaby the best character in the game. What NIck Riddle have shown isn't even 50% of what he is capable off.

By the way @ NickRiddle NickRiddle , why that charging neutralB?
 
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Smog Frog

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eventhubs doesn't think that so :4mewtwo:still has a chance right?? also my tier list 1) :4falcon: 2) :4link: 3):4littlemac: 4) everyone else 49) :4metaknight: 69) :4dk:

not sure, but i'm pretty sure it doesn't (isn't :4mewtwo:'s tail a hurtbox in that move?). i'll test it once i get home.

in response to the :4greninja: discussion, how does he do against :4falcon:?
well i know its disjointed in dtilt, why wouldnt it be in utilt?
 

bc1910

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in response to the :4greninja: discussion, how does he do against :4falcon:?
Falcon's a funny one, people often say he should beat Greninja for the same reasons as Fox and Sheik, since he's mobile enough to catch him and is strong up close. However it's a bit of a misconception. Falcon isn't actually a rushdown character unlike those two, he's a midrange monster who threatens with dash attack, dash grab and strong SH aerials. That's actually a lot easier to deal with for Greninja because Falcon isn't constantly pressuring his shield, so whereas Fox and Sheik out-neutral Greninja I don't think Falcon does. Both characters kind of look to punish each other and when they do, they can punish hard. Falcon's damage racking is better, but Greninja has a projectile which forces Falcon on the offensive and thus makes him a little easier to punish overall.

So it's a pretty even MU in neutral, with Falcon dealing a bit more damage and killing earlier overall, but you also have to consider that Falcon's recovery sucks. Greninja is one of the best at abusing it because he just creates a wall of water with Hydro Pump that easily edgeguards Falcon whenever he's forced to Up B, so Falcon's pretty vulnerable to gimps. Greninja's Bair is a disgusting move in general and works brilliantly against Falcon as well.

Overall I think this MU is even or slightly in Greninja's favour if he's able to get consistent edgeguards (which at high level should be possible because Falcon has very few options when recovering).
 
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FullMoon

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Greninja vs Falcon is one of those MUs that goes so back and forth it's kinda funny. Both characters wreck each other once they get the advantage but Greninja has the advantage of having a not bad disadvantaged state and a better recovery, while Falcon in general is stronger and has faster moves to throw out in neutral.

So the MU can really go either way but I think Falcon's bad disadvantaged state means that Greninja has an easier time juggling him than vice-versa which could make the MU sway in Greninja's favor some.
 

Trifroze

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All 3 of the characters I listed can also duck under dash attack, if timed right. So instead of holding down, they could wait till you are close and hold down, nullifying CF's main combo starters. You underrate the power of the duck.
That is flat out incorrect since the strong hitbox and disjoint hit all the way to the ground. The lingering sourspot misses those crouches but you don't want to hit with that.
 

NickRiddle

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Mini Mii Brawler is probaby the best character in the game. What NIck Riddle have shown isn't even 50% of what he is capable off.

By the way @ NickRiddle NickRiddle , why that charging neutralB?
Super-armor, and it kills. Shot Put is too slow to be used against most of the cast.
I'm going to be grinding that character like crazy once CEO is done. Going to bring out 110% potential of that character.
 

Fatmanonice

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People tend toward more polarized opinions of their own character's matchups. They possess more knowledge which could potentially sway them away from the default state of "oh, it's evenish I guess." (OTOH less knowledge = less variance in opinion)
I'm totally like this about WFT and I will admit that I'm hilariously biased. In all honesty, I just don't like that she's a character that's readily dismissed and think more people should give her a shot, especially with customs. You don't exactly attract new players by saying "our character is awkward, an uphill battle to learn, and your success will be mediocre at best", after all.

Eh, I think my character loses a lot. You're not gonna get any hackneyed baloney from me about how D3 bodies such and such. He's got a lot of bad traits that make him polarizing as hell. If D3 wins any match-up, it's by a slim margin, and I can personally count maybe 4-5 characters in my personal experience that he stands a chance at having that sorta standing with.

I'm hoping that me and the rest of the gang over at the D3 boards can figure things out.

Smooth Criminal
I think Big D mains are still suffering from something of an identity crisis because of how much his gameplay style changed from Brawl and it's going to take at least a year to really come to terms with how he's not the D he used to be. I'd argue the same goes for Metaknight because I think a good portion of his players are still grieving that he's no longer Death Incarnate, much like Fox players players did from Melee to Brawl.
 

Djent

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Mini-Mii :4miibrawl: is silly but I still don't think he's obviously the best character in the game. AFAIK his kill confirms exist in a window which is much earlier than what most characters have, but after that he really struggles. Do any of his normal moves just start killing later on at reasonable percents? That'd change my mind really quickly. :teeth:

Also here are the results for Karisuma3, a tourney which was held in Kansai this past weekend.

1) Ranai :4villager: (undefeated Killager)
2) OCEAN :4rob: (lost to Ranai twice)
3) SH :4fox: (lost to Earth and OCEAN)
4) Earth :4pit: (lost to OCEAN and SH)
5) Brood :4duckhunt: (lost to Ranai and SH)
5) 9B [most likely :4shulk:] (lost to Brood and Earth)

Kansai tournaments are generally not as "stacked" as Kanto ones, but there were still some very strong players in attendance. That being said, it still looks as if Ranai had no problem plowing through this bracket.
BTW is this the first-recorded JV3 in this game? Figures it'd be against poor old :4littlemac: ROFL.
 

The pig-keeper

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1) Ranai :4villager: (undefeated Killager)
FINALLY. I mean, who would contest Villager's supremacy in this game ?
I hate to quote ZeRo but I pretty much agreed with that guy : Villager is underrated, and I bet on villager being in top 5 of the upcoming EVO.
 

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not sure, but i'm pretty sure it doesn't (isn't :4mewtwo:'s tail a hurtbox in that move?). i'll test it once i get home.
Only the club of Mewtwo's tail doesn't have a hurtbox.

well i know its disjointed in dtilt, why wouldnt it be in utilt?
None of Mewtwo's tail attacks have a disjoint.
 

Fatmanonice

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FINALLY. I mean, who would contest Villager's supremacy in this game ?
I hate to quote ZeRo but I pretty much agreed with that guy : Villager is underrated, and I bet on villager being in top 5 of the upcoming EVO.
Watching that video, I would say that Peach and Yoshi have always sort of been sort of underrated and it seems like both have always had an issue with retaining high level players. Granted, Yoshi has suffered from special snowflake syndrome (high learning curve but low payout) until this game but even now that he's a solid character most people just dismiss him. Peach has always struck me as a good character that has maybe one or two catastrophically bad matchups in each game that ultimately wreck her overall appeal. I'd also say that Wario is grossly underrated too and is one of those characters that's going to climb the ranks in time.
 

David Viran

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FINALLY. I mean, who would contest Villager's supremacy in this game ?
I hate to quote ZeRo but I pretty much agreed with that guy : Villager is underrated, and I bet on villager being in top 5 of the upcoming EVO.
Who would be that villager tho? He could be op but if a top player doesn't represent him than how is he going to place top 5 at EVO?
 

The pig-keeper

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Who would be that villager tho? He could be op but if a top player doesn't represent him than how is he going to place top 5 at EVO?
Well, that's because Willager is underrated that I think he will surprise everyone. I don't have names, but you know, Villager is the kind of character that worth the try if you've trained him properly, and it won't surprise me that much to see a top player taking Villager to the top in such a tournament.

My post was ironic, I'm not stating that Villager will necessarily take names at EVO, but he is the character that represents what smash 4 hides. And what's hidden cannot be perfectly countered right ?
 
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Luco

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Considering BAM, this is two first-place spots for Villager in the space of a couple weeks. I hope that puts customless :4villager: back on the radar.
 

Smog Frog

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Only the club of Mewtwo's tail doesn't have a hurtbox.



None of Mewtwo's tail attacks have a disjoint.
i meant that the tail didnt have a hurtbox. i tested by perfectly spacing a dtilt(absolute tip of the tail) against a gooey bomb in the 3ds version. :4mewtwo:incurs no damage from hitting the gooey bomb.
 

Yikarur

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Super-armor, and it kills. Shot Put is too slow to be used against most of the cast.
I'm going to be grinding that character like crazy once CEO is done. Going to bring out 110% potential of that character.
You throw Shot Put off-stage to get early kills. And if you throw it on plattforms at a certain angle the hitbox is very long lasting while it will slide off plattforms. Some recoveries are easily hit by it. The move would be 10 times better if it would fall about 1-5 frames longer, it almost always vanishes right before the contact.
I still think it's better than the charging punch but there are match-ups where shot put is probably completely useless.
 

Emblem Lord

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Ultimate Uppercut makes it so anytime your opponent does something punishable and they are past 100%, you can kill them. Sealing stocks guaranteed is important.
 

deepseadiva

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Charge Punch is better.

Anything that automatically creates value for you, and encourages approaches is always super good. Deep Breathing, Charge Balls, Charge Punches... even Peach's turnip farming for a stitchface kinda.
 
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