Character Competitive Impressions

[Spinosaurus]

Not sure if it's been discussed yet but here's Zero's opinion on the most underrated characters
https://youtu.be/Up1SEKZlCXk

Somethingsomethingnowariosomethingsomething

 

[thehard]

I watched Mii Brawler net a kill against ESAM's Pikachu in the middle of Smashville at 29% from a grab.

Ok you really need to explain yourself here. ESAM got dash grabbed at 29% to 1/4 the length of Smashville, d-thrown to 34, then got faired to 42 and Helicopter Kicked AT THE EDGE OF THE MAP for the kill. I don't know if DI would have influenced that sequence at all. But there are plenty of moves I'm sure that kill that close to the blast zone at 58%. (And it was Tiny Brawler, natch)

Your anecdote implies something wholly unnatural took place without those details.

 

[Yonder]

Why does it matter if players that use customs place highly?

Also, I thought Floating Missile was deemed better than default, and all of Luigi's fireballs sound good on paper. Average Joe gets high placings without customs as well.

I think quick missile is the best Luigi missile personally, but no one ever agrees...

 

[Shaya]

Ok you really need to explain yourself here. ESAM got dash grabbed at 29% to 1/4 the length of Smashville, d-thrown to 34, then got faired to 42 and Helicopter Kicked AT THE EDGE OF THE MAP for the kill. I don't know if DI would have influenced that sequence at all. But there are plenty of moves I'm sure that kill that close to the blast zone at 58%. (And it was Tiny Brawler, natch)

Your anecdote implies something wholly unnatural took place without those details.

Only character in non-customs meta I'm aware of that could murder someone like that is zero suit samus, and it would require spiking with the flip jump kick (requiring precise spacing and timing), which would likely only be connecting from Dsmash/paralyzer/nair (or it could've been DI'd to avoid).
Half the stage in is the exaggeration here, But I don't think he made out that ESAM plainly died at centre stage at 29% from an up-b.

 

[exnecross]

So this is basically the cry about Sheik thread? I'm starting to see how Diddy mains felt...

edit: nice

 

[DunnoBro]

Yea, brawler's grabs aren't killing midstage at 29% lol Or midstage at all unless he's at like omega rage.

Helicopter kick kills off set knockback mostly, it isn't particularly strong, about as strong as boost kick really, it's just the areas it can be used (and the ability to drag them closer to the blastzone then come back) allow it to kill sooner. So when it hits by the ledge, it can kill super early.

I used to think it was pretty broken too, was extremely convinced actually. But after the people I played learned how to play against it (i.e, not let me grab them by the ledge or bait an air dodge, they always look to trade instead of air dodge now) I think it's a little more potent than what luigi, or zss have, but at the cost of having not much else to rely on.

His smashes are good, but they become a threat when the helicopter kick is much less of one. And they're just smashes.

He's just such an obscure character, with a radical playstyle so I don't blame anyone for thinking he's broken. I think he's just extremely gimmicky, personally. If he isn't getting you with the helicopter kick, he's essentially just a more punishable sheik who can't needle camp.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

The arguments for customs being a relevant meta thus far have been "its more balanced." While this is sort of hogwash, since the custom meta does not need a justification to be a valid format, it does make its way in to the debate on whether or not it should be the format.

This answer will ultimately come to form after EVO. With that said, I am inclined to say no for a variety of reasons.

#1: Customs on is not definitively more balanced than customs off, for those who would suggest such a reason. In order to state this semi-objectively, we would have needed to have formed tier lists that are reasonably accurate and accepted by general consensus for both metagames in order to have even a vague idea on the relative balance comparitively. We are simply not there yet. Anyone arguing this, or using balance for or against the customs meta is doing this through perceived balance, usually using anecdotal evidence, current trends, or outlier examples. Just because Ganondorf suddenly becomes viable does not mean the custom meta has more viable candidates, nor is the inverse true. In short, balance is relative, and we do not have the precedent for comparisons.

#2: Customs is a pain in the ***, honestly. While the methods for setup outlined by @Amazing Ampharos help to streamline the process, they are time consuming to unlock at home for those without a 3DS and require a community consensus generated list of predetermined movesets. I myself still do not have all of them unlocked, and I know plenty of players who do not either, making practicing for custom moves suboptimal in many cases. Vanilla is simply more convenient to run, more convenient to play, and more accessible.

#3: Something people do not really consider is how customs in some cases depreciate the depth of top level competitive play. If customs definitively offer a wider cast of viable characters, is this more important than a deep competitive experience? Considering that Melee has survived strong competitively for so long with a viable cast of only 9 characters, I would say no.

When most players talk about whether or not customs increase the relative depth of the game, they attribute that to the amount of options a character has in lieu of their alternative move choices. What needs to be understood here is that this should not be our primary focus of competitive player skill. Additionally, many of these moves invalidate or trivialize the other qualities of the character. If Donkey Kong is able to use Kong Cyclone to conquer the bracket when he otherwise would be unable to do so, does it really matter in the end what else his moveset has to offer? I watched Mii Brawler net a kill against ESAM's Pikachu in the middle of Smashville at 29% from a grab. A play like this in vanilla normally is the result of extreme player error or a brilliant outplay. This unfortunately is just another day at the office in the customs meta.

#4: There are future concerns for customs, such as whether or not they will receive balance changes, and whether or not future DLC characters will receive custom moves, that have yet to be addressed. Assuming neither of these come to pass, it makes it harder to justify having customs as the standard.

Ban the dlc characters. Screw them if they don't have customs. Yes we paid money for mewtwo but most of us didn't realize we were getting a customless characters. If there's no customs for dlc characters in the future just ban them.

You're talking about lack of depth at high levels of game play but what exactly are you basing this on? Absolutely, nothing if you ask me. Just like your argument of it not promoting balance. You're literally just making things up.

You post is summed up to me by your point about how lazy you are. Unwilling to grind out customs. Sorry man but that's not a valid argument. Just because you're lazy doesn't mean the tournament standard shouldn't be customs. This has to be one of the most absurd things I've ever read before.

 

[Pyr]

I like how you cherry picked 1 point in a 5+ solid paragraph post, ignored all the points, except one (and you basically said "I'm right you're wrong" with it with nothing to back up your point), and picked the only subjective one of the bunch and based the meat of your post on that. Lol.

I really hope that that type of argument is just an early player phase. It's really worthless to read and have to deal with.

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

Are we any closer to a consensus as to whether or not Custom Moves should be the competitive standard?

At this point in time, this topic is pretty much two "Character Competitive Impressions" topics merged into one. With both Customs On and Customs Off being the standard, though the community is split over them. In my opinion, anyways.

Of course, Customs On sadly has the misfortune of being annoying to unlock. Because Sakurai. So Customs Off will always have an edge in that regard.

 

[TriTails]

I tried comparing Floating Missile and Quick Missile and oh wow, how much I underestimated the latter.

And I thought the end lag was a huge deal.

What I found on Quick Missile:
1. The uncharged version's distance is sick. Covers pretty much the same distance a FULLY charged version of original Missile and Floating one. Fully charged? Yeah. An entire FD.
2. Unlike other 2 Missiles, this one actually goes at twenty miles per second instead of the usual 2 centimetres per second.
3. This sends you sliding and open for an attack, but the Missile is just so damn quick and far-reaching enough. You won't be using this to actually attack anyway.
4. Doesn't get as much power loss Floating Missile has.

...Okay. Quick Missile's actually good. Sooooo...

Can I get my Heavy Green Missile?

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

I like how you cherry picked 1 point in a 5+ solid paragraph post, ignored all the points, except one (and you basically said "I'm right you're wrong" with it with nothing to back up your point), and picked the only subjective one of the bunch and based the meat of your post on that. Lol.

I really hope that that type of argument is just an early player phase. It's really worthless to read and have to deal with.

Laziness has no place in competitive. If you're unwilling to put in the work then to me that invalidates your opinion. I've said it about the snti custom crowd before and the main thing is they're lazy. Anyways the biggest sm4sh tournament is a custom tournament. To simply ignore customs tells me how much a person is considered a the competitive scene. There's really no defense or excuse however this only applies if we're talking about the competitive scene.

 

[Pyr]

Laziness has no place in competitive. If you're unwilling to put in the work then to me that invalidates your opinion. I've said it about the snti custom crowd before and the main thing is they're lazy. Anyways the biggest sm4sh tournament is a custom tournament. To simply ignore customs tells me how much a person is considered a the competitive scene. There's really no defense or excuse however this only applies if we're talking about the competitive scene.

If you're not willing to have a discussion with people, you have no place on these forums. You can't always be right, and you can't always pretend you are. That's how you come off 100% of the time.

That was the point of my post to you.

 

[Shaya]

Okay, for the time being (i.e. until further notice), there really isn't anything to gain from talking about customs vs non customs in terms of legality / which ones better. So ... let's not?

Perhaps a better way to logic / understand the "argument" would be rating factors 1-10 in terms of how that "impact" reflects on you. A single 'thing' about an argument may be not worth much to you ("0" could be valid, even) but it likely does to a wider range of people. When all things are added together, you may be well below half the total, but others will contrast with you, people who weighed all things together could be well over a threshold they deem "bearable" or preferable.

You aren't changing people's stances by saying something they rate anything above 1 "has no place"/it invalidates their opinion.

Anyway, I hope the discussion of customs and non-custom meta happening in tandem can still be maintained sanely here.

 

[|RK|]

I forget who was saying it, but it doesn't really hurt to not have a standard. I used to think it did, but really some tournaments will have customs, some won't. Many pros will get used to both metas, and that's just fine. No need to fight.

 

[meleebrawler]

Can I get my Heavy Green Missile?

That's called a "misfire".

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

If you're not willing to have a discussion with people, you have no place on these forums. You can't always be right, and you can't always pretend you are. That's how you come off 100% of the time.

That was the point of my post to you.

I don't think I'm always right. It's just how I am/ post. I have my beliefs and idea and just say them.

I truly believe as people who are looking to compete that we have a set of standards. Being lazy isn't helpful. If you haven't played in a custom environment / don't even bother with customs you're shooting yourself in the foot. We're not casually playing this game.

 

[DunnoBro]

I tried comparing Floating Missile and Quick Missile and oh wow, how much I underestimated the latter.

And I thought the end lag was a huge deal.

What I found on Quick Missile:
1. The uncharged version's distance is sick. Covers pretty much the same distance a FULLY charged version of original Missile and Floating one. Fully charged? Yeah. An entire FD.
2. Unlike other 2 Missiles, this one actually goes at twenty miles per second instead of the usual 2 centimetres per second.
3. This sends you sliding and open for an attack, but the Missile is just so damn quick and far-reaching enough. You won't be using this to actually attack anyway.
4. Doesn't get as much power loss Floating Missile has.

...Okay. Quick Missile's actually good. Sooooo...

Can I get my Heavy Green Missile?

The problem with quick missile is you're using it soon after entering the animation while charging (Since if you don't, a higher charge will likely headplant you and leave you open for a big punish) So there's little room for mix-up, and it still has a LOT of endlag, and covers a lot more distances while in that endlag, closer to the stage generally too. (thus easier to edgeguard)

This is why boss doesn't like it anyway, he says float is probably better but he doesn't feel like he gets edgeguarded enough to warrant learning a new only theoretically superior recovery pattern.

But one final word on the customs being less balanced since they make good characters better too, I view it like L-canceling. Most of the top tiers don't really need l-canceling to be the best, but there'd be a lot less combos, options for lower tier characters, and overall fun if l-canceling wasn't in the melee environment. (aerial-centric)

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Is it excessively difficult to tech out of getting hit from the headplant animation? Are there walls or certain areas of walls that you cannot headplant into?

 

[bc1910]

Not sure if it's been discussed yet but here's Zero's opinion on the most underrated characters
https://youtu.be/Up1SEKZlCXk

Somethingsomethingnowariosomethingsomething

If it makes you feel better Zero said there were lots of characters he wanted to include but limited himself to 5. He posted on reddit saying he almost included Meta Knight and mentioned somewhere else (his stream I think) that he wanted to include Greninja. So maybe Wario just missed the cut as well.

 

[Smog Frog]

its my theory that he doesnt want to promote because lets be real, he's lame as **** when played optimally. just avoid conflict until you have a fart, and he has the tools for that. bike, air mobility, great aerials. is good and somewhat underrated(more like underplayed tbh), but i really dont want him to become popular.

 

[wedl!!]

So this is basically the cry about Sheik thread? I'm starting to see how Diddy mains felt...

edit: nice

useful post friend
zero should cover in his next underrated characters video, no one is playing him and no one notices how he's actually really strong. like seriously is a great walling character

 

[Trifroze]

Only character in non-customs meta I'm aware of that could murder someone like that is zero suit samus, and it would require spiking with the flip jump kick (requiring precise spacing and timing), which would likely only be connecting from Dsmash/paralyzer/nair (or it could've been DI'd to avoid).
Half the stage in is the exaggeration here, But I don't think he made out that ESAM plainly died at centre stage at 29% from an up-b.

Falcon can murder Pikachu, Rosalina, Mewtwo, Jigglypuff, G&W and Kirby with a guaranteed dash grab dthrow to knee between about 20 to 50% and set them up for an airdodge 50:50 roughly 10-15% further until they can get away with a jump. If the dash grab is initiated slightly past the middle of the stage it kills some of them at 35-40% even with VI.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[bc1910]

its my theory that he doesnt want to promote because lets be real, he's lame as **** when played optimally. just avoid conflict until you have a fart, and he has the tools for that. bike, air mobility, great aerials. is good and somewhat underrated(more like underplayed tbh), but i really dont want him to become popular.

Mm, I'm inclined to agree. Wario is perfectly capable of just walling characters out with his aerials and air mobility, biking through them if they try to zone him and basically just camping for fart. I don't like that playstyle much.

Then I see @ TheReflexWonder pull off a bike to waft combo and I like Wario again.

 

[FullMoon]

If I'm to be completely honest I really don't want to see Wario raise in usage because not only is he the only character in the whole game I don't like, he's really annoying to fight against.

Nice that ZeRo thinks Greninja is underrated though, I remember him saying in one of his videos that he still thought Greninja was one of the best characters in the game and not seeing him in his list made me wonder if he had changed his opinion.

 

[Sm4shGobIin]

useful post friend
zero should cover in his next underrated characters video, no one is playing him and no one notices how he's actually really strong. like seriously is a great walling character

or ... i don't understand, ive only seen salem or nairo show her off... and i feel like she should get more attention. ((((

 

[David Viran]

or ... i don't understand, ive only seen salem or nairo show her off... and i feel like she should get more attention. ((((

Don't you mean nairo and choco. I haven't seen Salem use her much. Last time he used her was just a little bit ago against dapuffster and that was the first time he used her in months as far as I know.

 

[bc1910]

Yeah, it doesn't surprise me that Zero doesn't think Greninja's a lost cause because he's an experienced player. I think he knows it's unwise to discount a character with such incredible mobility and strong advantaged state/punishes, in a game (or series, really) where both of those traits mean a lot.

Greninja also benefits massively from the direction the meta is heading, with Luigi getting more common. He'll benefit from people getting better at edgeguarding too, which is pretty underdeveloped for almost every character. And having only 3 bad MUs is pretty good, though Sheik being one of them is crappy but I don't think the MU is bad enough for her to nullify him completely and thus make him unviable. Also it seems like Sheik is gonna keep getting nerfed so there's that. He also loses to Fox but once again it wouldn't surprise me if Fox's jab got nerfed in future. I'm not saying I want nerfs btw, I don't (I think the patches nerf too much and buff too little), but it wouldn't surprise me if they occurred.

EDIT: I should probably note that in fairness more Luigi can lead to more Sheik, which is bad for Greninja, so in that respect the meta is mixed for him right now.

No-one's going to believe Greninja's still a threat until someone wins or at least places well in tourney with him though, which I guess is fair enough. I'm hoping it'll happen in the near future. Maybe at EVO, although I think Amsa is using Pikachu.

 

[Diddy Kong]

To who, besides Sheik, does Greninja lose exactly?

 

[Djent]

jank should not be held against customs because can access their various specials regardless of whether they're on or off. It's not like you even need to fish for examples of silly custom moves, so please try harder.

Oh **** of course I read Shaya's post afterward. Sorry.

 

[FullMoon]

To who, besides Sheik, does Greninja lose exactly?

Fox and Sonic are the other ones. I think Diddy was a potential fourth but I think now that he can't kill us as easily I think it's even.

Otherwise I don't think Greninja loses to anyone else.

 

[bc1910]

To who, besides Sheik, does Greninja lose exactly?

We think he loses to Sheik, Fox and Sonic. All three characters can abuse his poor OoS game and they all have the mobility to not exactly lock him down, but at least catch him. Sheik and Fox frankly wreck him up close, while Sonic can basically make himself harder to hit than Greninja while dealing more damage on punishes.

I don't like putting ratios on things but if I was asked for them I would say he loses to Sheik 40:60, loses to Sonic 45:55 and probably loses to Fox 45:55, though it might be worse. This is where 45:55 is a small disadvantage, 40:60 is a disadvantage and anything worse than 40:60 is probably unwinnable at high level.

Those 3 are his generally accepted losing MUs but there are a few more characters you can debate him losing to. He lost to Diddy prepatch for sure but I think that's even now, he struggled most with Diddy's kill power which is basically what was nerfed. It might be slightly in Diddy's favour (I mean, no match besides mirrors is truly even) but not enough to say it's 45:55 rather than 50:50. You and I have discussed this already I think haha. Some other characters Greninja can struggle with are Toon Link and Olimar, but again we generally don't think they're worse than even. Also, to be frank, those MUs don't seem to have been played offline much and both characters are hurt less by online lag than Greninja, so I think that could be a factor.

 

[Jellydino]

I've been told constantly that is incredibly bad and that's why there is very little players using her, but she seems to be really solid and has quite a few good matchups against popular picks.

Is this a common conception of her or is she legit bad?

 

[Smog Frog]

customs off she's low/bottom. customs on she skyrockets to a top 15/10 spot. lightweight is one of the best moves in the game and super speed is basically a spin dash.

 

[Diddy Kong]

I really wish Sakurai would give buffs to everyone all around instead of nerfing everyone to basically become a Brawl character...

 

[Mr. Johan]

A spin dash that converts into a grab, Usmash, and Dash Attack. If Sonic had that, he'd be unbelievable.

And the weakness to Super Speed - the 5 second cool down - is mitigated by the existence of Lightweight. One move can be used to cover the cooldown of the other. It's silly.

 

[Djent]

As silly as is with customs on, it's hard for me to consider her a top 10 pick when her gameplan is so linear. Her primary moves from neutral are SH (empty, Bair, sometimes Fair), jab, Super Speed, and DA. She doesn't use her tilts much at all, and N/U/Dair are all used primarily for kills and setups. She has one mediocre special ad well. One of the TLoc commenters even mentioned this last night. As oppressive as these moves are, their lack of flexibility makes them prime candidates for the development of counterplay.

 

[Teshie U]

Lightweight is awesome, but Palutena is still just a lackluster character moving very quickly. All the other good characters can still mix you up when they get close.

Hopefully they finally patch infinite lightweight and adjust her tilts some.

It would be nice to see at least one of her tilts gain the "unclankable" priority that little mac has on his ftilt. Her tilts are pretty interesting moves, but their commitment is wasted when you can just clash with them, then outspeed her.

 

[Locke 06]

It would be nice to see at least one of her tilts gain the "unclankable" priority that little mac has on his ftilt. Her tilts are pretty interesting moves, but their commitment is wasted when you can just clash with them, then outspeed her.

Ummm....

I'll edit this to have some content. Her tilts do have that property. She is built (vanilla) as a defensive fortress that can out button you if you press a button. (Edit harder: This is actually incorrect. She can't out-button because of her frame data. You just can't challenge her hitboxes while they're out. If you ftilt her, she doesn't have the frame data to beat your move.) Disjoints with range, invincibility, counter, reflect, projectile... Problem is her commitment and safety.

 

[Teshie U]

But I've never seen them beat anything.

Is it just a gap in the hitboxes or the range preventing them from scoring the next hit like Mac always does?

 

[Gard]

Smashboards has a character use/win rate tracker, so I pulled up each character's win rates. First, a few disclaimers.

• This is not a tier list
• This isn't even an opinion it's just some data
• I will provide my opinion for why the stats are the way they are, but it is an opinion and I would love to hear other thoughts
• I am not really very good at any Smash game, especially not 4. I'm mostly a Melee player who is mostly interested in Smash 4 online
• Percents are out of 1, not 100, because it's easier to do
• Still not a tier list though thanks for asking

Since anyone can look at the Smashboards stuff, I won't list character popularity here, just win rates. This is post 1.06, so all of it is after April 15.
.12083333333333333333333333333333
0.14349775784753363228699551569507
0.10714285714285714285714285714286
0.07486631016042780748663101604278
0.18713450292397660818713450292398
0.12345679012345679012345679012346
0.08783783783783783783783783783784
0.04137931034482758620689655172414
0.03448275862068965517241379310345
0.10377358490566037735849056603774
0.09615384615384615384615384615385
0.07142857142857142857142857142857
0.02061855670103092783505154639175
0.10752688172043010752688172043011
0.01449275362318840579710144927536
0.05797101449
0.07462686567
0.01492537313
0.07462686567
0.06451612903
0.12068965517
0.05172413793
0.14035087719
0.05555555555
0.03773584905
0.04
0.04081632653
0.10204081632
0.125
0.10869565217
0.16279069767
0.02564102564
0.05128205128
0.08108108108
0.08333333333
0.14285714285
0.05882352941
0.11764705882
0.0625
0
0
0
0
0.08333333333
0
0.1304347826
0
0.05555555555
0.29411764705
0.13333333333
0.125
0