Character Competitive Impressions

[Shaya]

Increase fair landing lag.
Make needles no longer pop you up, just stun you like a Falco laser.
Problem solved.

If that happened then I no longer would be able to play OoT/TP Fishing with Sheik, killing 90% of my enjoyment with her~



I think Sheik is treading on wire now, where any further nerfs could throw her towards Lucario-tier. They've nerfed the wrong things, and I doubt they'll ever tweek things in ways that maintain feel while 'balancing' her. Needles reaching even up to half the distance they currently do would still be amazing, but would take her out of being the best long range zoner in the game when she isn't meant / designed / intended to be (having one of the shortest dashes that allow her to b-reverse needles is slightly more technically demanding but is what makes needles so daunting, she'd still be very capable of camping/spacing with them).

Up-B and Bouncing Fish distances are strangely large, that with the new ledge mechanics, making one of her previous major weaknesses (recovering) a mute point. Just like Lucario was pre-WiiU.

Basically, I think Sheik's numbers are now at a stage where they're teetering towards underwhelming to bad. She'll in my opinion become dysfunctional if the tools she has that make her neutral so strong/cast-wide effective get nerfed further (frame data, damage output). Many characters only need to get a third of the hits (or less) Sheik does to stay ahead of her and her frame data/range isn't that far gone from other good characters in the cast.

Reducing range on three of her specials to me is what I've maintained would be best altered without culling viability (upping her skill floor / opponent punishment opportunities). Bring the back air home because pivot jumping/raring into bair is virtually the only common/universal technical thing left in this game and it being disappointing is major sad face inducing.

Also hit confirming into bouncing fish isn't hard, cookie cutter would describe it well, lol, it's just boring that's practically all she has anymore.

 

[Ikes]

anyone else think that this game just feels a lot more balanced than previous titles?

a lot of the characters dont seem to feel better or worse than each other. no particular character stands out as "bad" except for a select few, every character just feels like they're at least competitively viable (again, except for a select few).

anyone else feel the same?

 

[meleebrawler]

If Sheik could use Burst Grenade and its customs without any consequence off stage, it would be a powerful and perhaps, borderline broken tool. She could just setup a grenade that you'll fall into and die. Din's Fire off stage is barely on the level of what Sheik could do with Burst Grenade off stage. Sure, they're both slow, but Sheik having the air speed and recovery to set it up would make it a stronger tool than Din's Fire off stage. Not having helpless mode after Din's Fire makes Zelda less inconvenienced (as if her character design isn't as messed up as is) while Burst Grenade would just add to Sheik's tools of trapping and murdering off-stage. I wouldn't be surprised if it can be used to gimp Luigi, Little Mac, Ganondorf, Bowser, and Dr. Mario because Burst Grenade would mess with their momentum.


Which is why I said she's like a not broken Melee Fox. If Sheik had say, Captain Falcon's kill power and still kept her strong combo game, she would be more like Melee Fox. Make her as strong as Ganondorf and we'd be dealing with the fury of a scorned woman. Her lack of killing power is like Melee Fox's need to understand him and Melee. You can't really do much with Sheik if you don't know how to use her at a very high level. You can get those Smash reads, but that's like three moves and moves that are dependent on reads, positioning, and percents. You might as well play Ganondorf and have an easier time.

Sheik is one character you cannot cookie cut like with Luigi, Diddy, Captain Falcon, Mario, and Fox since her kill options require you to understand how to setup them and when to use them. Melee Fox could at least cheese you out with Reflector spikes and land strong Smashes and aerials while Sheik is the combo and gimp master whose lack of powerful kill moves prevent her from being a broken or borderline broken character. Needles having set knockback would inconvenience her and maybe even strengthen her game since you're going to be stuck in hitstun and always there instead of being knocked back somewhere.


Or completely overhauled in at least how their moves work. Gee, let's have a character with short grab range have a slow grab as well. Won't that be great for Falco? That landing lag won't be a problem for Marth! Man, Lucina having no tippers makes her an excellent beginner's character. Oh no, Link's jab can "infinite" unsuspecting players! Let's add a ton of frames so he can't even jab mixup anymore. That's a good way to balance Link! And don't get me started on Zelda. THREE SWEET-SPOT AERIALS.

I guess they expect us to believe that the hovering effect of aerial Din's is supposed to count as recovery?

It's been said time and time again that Lucina not having tippers isn't her biggest problem, but rather her
moves being more easily punished on shield.

How would Sheik fare if she lost the ability to store charge for her needles?

 

[Kofu]

If that happened then I no longer would be able to play OoT/TP Fishing with Sheik, killing 90% of my enjoyment with her~



I think Sheik is treading on wire now, where any further nerfs could throw her towards Lucario-tier. They've nerfed the wrong things, and I doubt they'll ever tweek things in ways that maintain feel while 'balancing' her. Needles reaching even up to half the distance they currently do would still be amazing, but would take her out of being the best long range zoner in the game when she isn't meant / designed / intended to be (having one of the shortest dashes that allow her to b-reverse needles is slightly more technically demanding but is what makes needles so daunting, she'd still be very capable of camping/spacing with them).

Up-B and Bouncing Fish distances are strangely large, that with the new ledge mechanics, making one of her previous major weaknesses (recovering) a mute point. Just like Lucario was pre-WiiU.

Basically, I think Sheik's numbers are now at a stage where they're teetering towards underwhelming to bad. She'll in my opinion become dysfunctional if the tools she has that make her neutral so strong/cast-wide effective get nerfed further (frame data, damage output). Many characters only need to get a third of the hits (or less) Sheik does to stay ahead of her and her frame data/range isn't that far gone from other good characters in the cast.

Reducing range on three of her specials to me is what I've maintained would be best altered without culling viability (upping her skill floor / opponent punishment opportunities).

Also hit confirming into bouncing fish isn't hard, cookie cutter would describe it well, lol, it's just boring that's practically all she has anymore.

Would this still be the case if BAir had its old power and/or if UAir/Bouncing Fish retained their strength? Honestly she's frustrating to fight but the amount of work she has to put in to do what other characters can do in one or two hits is a little ridiculous. My experience is limited compared to a lot of people here but I feel if she couldn't camp with Needles she'd be a lot more tame.

 

[busken]

Pikachu has low kill confirm.

 

[Shaya]

It's been said time and time again that Lucina not having tippers isn't her biggest problem, but rather her
moves being more easily punished on shield.

You haven't read things from me/EL about them if lacking sour/sweet spots isn't seen as one of her largest problems, their differences in safety are honestly meagre (they exist, sure).

Would this still be the case if BAir had its old power and/or if UAir/Bouncing Fish retained their strength? Honestly she's frustrating to fight but the amount of work she has to put in to do what other characters can do in one or two hits is a little ridiculous. My experience is limited compared to a lot of people here but I feel if she couldn't camp with Needles she'd be a lot more tame.

I'd take half needle range, 1/3rd less bouncing fish/vanish range and the return of kill power on bair and uair 500 times over. Where she's currently seated, I'm looking for up airs for kill options, but her kit isn't really vertically focused (still, up air is fun to work towards).
Bouncing Fish shouldn't have been that strong. That was absurd.
She would be weaker than before/currently (probably), but I'd feel like I'm playing a similar game to everyone else ("honest") rather than what she currently is, which is imo a bouncing fish hit confirm machine with needles to piss people off into making mistakes.

 

[meleebrawler]

Pikachu has low kill confirm.

Pikachu actually seems really similar to Sheik in playstyle, just with a few tweaks. His moveset is generally
a bit less safe in frame data but is compensated by his really small frame. He's a bit more mobile, especially with Quick Attack,
but his projectile is slower and less suited to camping.

 

[Ffamran]

Sheik's Bair nerf was really unnecessary... Dtilt getting nerfed was even more unnecessary. Stuff that should have been nerfed or changed are stuff that's bordering broken or not supposed to work properly. So, Diddy's Uair. Yes, it was made into a big deal and it was valid since it's a fast move that kills kind of early. For most quick moves, they're not supposed to kill until much later, but the damage and the height Diddy could get people up made it kill easily. That and the stupid hitbox. Now, contrast this with Link's jab. Link's jab isn't supposed to infinite unsuspecting players, but it's supposed to allow Link to jab mixup. Now it can't and it was made into this big deal and people not suspecting DI could prevent the infinite. Also, Link fishing for jab infinite isn't going to net him a game like how Falco, Triple D, and Ice Climbers could setup chaingrabs which were inescapable compared to Link's jab infinite. That's not a good fix.

At the same time, what about the other characters? Some of the buffs were minor or superficial like Ganondorf's jab damage increase and Falco's Up Smash connecting better. Zelda's Up and Side Smash connecting better does benefit her game since having moves just not work properly is just bad. Then Meta Knight still has issues with his hitboxes. Better than at launch, but still kind of stupid how his Ftilt hitbox doesn't match the animation. Why are certain characters under-performing? That's not being answered by the patches and I doubt they will considering the cast size. It'll be balanced with more characters coming in, but a major change like say if Marth gained significantly lowered landing lag would require a lot of checking unless you want Marth to have Sheik's Fair, but stronger because of the tipper and the fact it's a disjoint. Some of them can be answered already like Lucina's unsafe moves, Falco's strangely and sometimes severely increased startup on Dash Attack, Side Smash - 1 extra frame, really, developers? -, standing grab being slower than Ganondorf's, and the fact he has Wolf's Bair meaning he has no front hitbox to cover him. But how to implement them is the issue. 50+ characters where one mistake could end up with a character getting invalidated.

It's been said time and time again that Lucina not having tippers isn't her biggest problem, but rather her
moves being more easily punished on shield.

Tippers allow Marth to challenge shields. Removing tippers and not accounting for that is what's the issue with Lucina's design. They could have at least made it so her end lag and landing lag was shorter to account for not having tippers to challenge shields. So, Marth tips a shield and pushes it back; Lucina hits a shield, recovers, and runs away without getting punished like if Marth hits with an un-tipped move.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

You haven't read things from me/EL about them if lacking sour/sweet spots isn't seen as one of her largest problems, their differences in safety are honestly meagre (they exist, sure).



I'd take half needle range, 1/3rd less bouncing fish/vanish range and the return of kill power on bair and uair 500 times over. Where she's currently seated, I'm looking for up airs for kill options, but her kit isn't really vertically focused (still, up air is fun to work towards).
Bouncing Fish shouldn't have been that strong. That was absurd.
She would be weaker than before/currently (probably), but I'd feel like I'm playing a similar game to everyone else ("honest") rather than what she currently is, which is imo a bouncing fish hit confirm machine with needles to piss people off into making mistakes.

Would nerfing needle range be better or worse for Sheik than making it so that needles cause no hitstun, a la Fox's blaster? (Maybe let full charge needles still cause hitstun? IDK.)

 

[Ikes]

Pikachu actually seems really similar to Sheik in playstyle, just with a few tweaks. His moveset is generally
a bit less safe in frame data but is compensated by his really small frame. He's a bit more mobile, especially with Quick Attack,
but his projectile is slower and less suited to camping.

thunder wave is the best custom though, paralyzation OP

seriously though I love pikachu, cause his aerials may have some landing lag but the landing lag still messe with his hurtboxes so much that he's still hard to hit.

i can kinda see the similar to sheik sentiment although he seems a lot more focused on utilt combos, sort of like a sheik/kirby mix to some degree.

 

[Shaya]

Would nerfing needle range be better or worse for Sheik than making it so that needles cause no hitstun, a la Fox's blaster? (Maybe let full charge needles still cause hitstun? IDK.)

WOULD KILL FISHING THOUGH.
There's also aerial needle stuff which is cool and underdeveloped, it has risks to it too.
And eh, that would do a lot to her. Like I mean a lot a lot. Transcended priority disruption tool. It allows her to have an option with dealing with all sorts of issues. If she lost it, then she'd likely suck without a lot of compensation.

Also Down Tilt "nerf" was probably more so a lazy-way to increase her down tilt's usage/utility as a combo starter, pops up, scales slowly, etc. Reducing growth would've been saner, but then probably none of us would've even noticed
(Lazy as damage is close to linear scaling with knockback).

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Are we any closer to a consensus as to whether or not Custom Moves should be the competitive standard?

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Are we any closer to a consensus as to whether or not Custom Moves should be the competitive standard?

Ahah

Ahahaha

Ahahahahaaaaaaaa

There will never be a consensus. There will always be major TOs who refuse to use them, and other TOs who refuse to not use them.

 

[busken]

Are we any closer to a consensus as to whether or not Custom Moves should be the competitive standard?

It will take awhile for smash 4 community to make a consensus on anything because the the veteran to rookie ratio is so low that the majority of smash 4 players are new, those of which tend to lean towards aspects of the game which can potentially become unbalanced because they want to enjoy the game in all it's aspects and dislike restriction. They lack knowledge on the building of a meta game and how things such as stages, customs, equipment can drastically affect it. The veterans most of which brawl players understand the foundation of a meta and fear customs can be detrimental into building the "standard." They fear that customs can bring unbalance to the point that the game can become uncompetitive. Rules right now in general are in the TO's hand since the community is so slippery in it's thoughts.

 

[Project Quarantine]

Does anyone know about the Minnesota scene? The answer is mostly no

Despite that, I'd like to say that our major smash 4 TO is completely for customs on. A lot of our state is like that too. We sometimes hold big events with a customs on and customs off bracket as well (if that matters to anyone).

Just saying, I believe the community as a whole is growing more and more towards just going with the flow and being open-minded about others' opinions.

 

[DunnoBro]

I think sheik should be designed around killing via specials/set-ups, her current aerial strength is about ideal.

But I think her needles should only charge to half what they do now (half distance, duration, and full charge time) but also have a better aerial angle to set-up and frame trap.

Vanish should have a larger, stronger hitbox on start, lower vertical distance on respawn, and perhaps a tweaking of the invincibility so it activates sooner, but is exploitable before the explosion. (similar to a counter in timing)

I feel like the vanish baits should be more of a threat sooner, and to a larger array of characters than it is.

Bouncing fish I think is fine, maybe the same knockback but altered trajectory to let it kill during edgeguards better.

Also think maybe making upsmash have a wider (but still absurdly tall) hitbox to more effectively punish air dodges.

Are we any closer to a consensus as to whether or not Custom Moves should be the competitive standard?

I'm still not convinced we need default or customs to be the standard. Though if a decision must be made, default should be "standard" simply due to the inability of less-equipped communities to run customs, and the ability for more casual players to transition into a competitive environment.

But of course, that comes with the asterisk that customs be considered just as worthy a meta to cater to as doubles.

 

[Nobie]

If we're complaining about Sheik, while Needles are annoying and really good, what I find to be the most irritating thing about her is the fact that Bouncing Fish not only has such a huge range (like 2/3 of Final Destination), but that it's so controllable that you can end up using it as both a close and long-range attack. It's like if Melee Fox Illusion could not only cancel but also KO, and that sounds kind of ridiculous.

Anyway, at least Needles no longer cancel out Charge Shots like they do in Melee (what). This at least gives characters like Samus and Lucario an opportunity to scare Sheik out of using Needles.

 

[outfoxd]

Is it logistics that hold people back from just declaring customs and defaults as two different divisions and and just letting that be as it may? Is it imperative to have a standard?

I do submission grappling, for example, and between gi and no gi events people just do what they want and that's the end of it. I'm not sure why one necessarily needs to encroach on the other.

Though I know the sheer pain in having customs unlocked has limited it.

 

[Trifroze]

Customs fundamentally decrease the overall balance of the game by giving some already good characters better specials and leaving some bad characters without any useful ones. This way, the gaps between characters increase noticeably while some move from unviable to viable or from good to very good, and many see this as better balance even though it isn't that. Some characters just get (even) better while others get (even) worse, it trades viability and creates bigger gaps. In addition they're fundamentally unfair for DLC characters who seemingly aren't getting any and even if they do, do we really want to willingly bring clearly rushed specials into the metagame over specials that were polished over four (three for side specials) Smash games?

Whether certain very strong custom moves are detrimental to the metagame or not I won't get into, but while it's not as definitive as an argument, it's another reason some people oppose (or support) them.

 

[Smog Frog]

the only perceived bad character that doesnt gain that much from customs is .

 

[Nu~]

the only perceived bad character that doesnt gain that much from customs is .

 

[Smog Frog]

at least gets a somewhat less terrible down b and a better up b

 

[FullMoon]

Zelda gets a better Phantom but that's not saying much.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Yeah, D3 doesn't really get much from customs. Gordo variants are meh, Inhale variants are okay-ish sidegrades (Taste Test is the best option), Super Dedede Jump variants are wonky, and Jet Hammer variants we don't talk about because we don't talk about that move ever.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Kofu]

is also bad and really doesn't get anything from customs. Leaping Rest is really fun, though.

 

[DunnoBro]

Customs fundamentally decrease the overall balance of the game by giving some already good characters better specials and leaving some bad characters without any useful ones.

Making good characters better but making more characters overall viable doesn't necessarily mean less balance.
It isn't merely on a scale of "better/worse" that makes a game good, and balanced, it's how many characters are viable. And there's a reason characters are viable, but how good other characters are is only a small variable.

Without customs, there's a fundamental incompatibility with competitive play for a large chunk of the cast due to a lack of potent options or a crippling weakness not patched via custom, those factors are ignorant to how good other particular characters are.

Also, the general pattern is topmost tiers benefit the least from customs. And the logic follows, most big custom tournaments have been won by default characters. The last few custom xanadus had top 3 all default characters.

 

[webbedspace]

Do we really want to willingly bring clearly rushed specials into the metagame over specials that were polished over four (three for side specials) Smash games?

You heard it guys, time to ban Bouncing Fish and all of the newcomer characters.

(The joke here is that banning customs already bans four newcomer characters.)

 

[Trifroze]

Making good characters better but making more characters overall viable doesn't necessarily mean less balance.
It isn't merely on a scale of "better/worse" that makes a game good, and balanced, it's how many characters are viable. And there's a reason characters are viable, but how good other characters are is only a small variable.

Without customs, there's a fundamental incompatibility with competitive play for a large chunk of the cast due to a lack of potent options or a crippling weakness not patched via custom, those factors are ignorant to how good other particular characters are.

Also, the general pattern is topmost tiers benefit the least from customs. And the logic follows, most big custom tournaments have been won by default characters. The last few custom xanadus had top 3 all default characters.

Pikachu, Rosalina, Mario, Wario and Sonic (plus possibly Fox and Ness) benefit considerably from customs and they're already top characters who command the viability of the rest of the characters. Making the likes of DK, Ganondorf, Mega Man, Palutena and Villager better with customs will make them more viable in the sense that it lets them compete with a lot of other viable characters, however at the same time the top tiers who benefit from customs that I mentioned earlier will make everyone else's time even worse than before. It's not a good trade especially on a national or international level.

I try to watch Xanadu every week and I think the biggest reason there's so little customs in top 3 is because Boss uses Luigi who doesn't benefit from them and Seagull seems to prefer not to use hammer spindash. Didn't you make it to top 3 with custom DHD though? Average Joe has also made it to top 3 quite a few times with custom (as well as default) DK, although maybe not recently.

 

[Smog Frog]

is also bad and really doesn't get anything from customs. Leaping Rest is really fun, though.

isnt bad tho

 

[thehard]

Why does it matter if players that use customs place highly?

Also, I thought Floating Missile was deemed better than default, and all of Luigi's fireballs sound good on paper. Average Joe gets high placings without customs as well.

 

[Kofu]

isnt bad tho

I have to disagree. She has a solid damage output and the ability to turn stocks around quickly, but her short range, bad ground mobility (dash attack notwithstanding) and mediocre frame data hinder her severely. Any character that can compete with or beat her aerial approaches basically beats her. She wants to wait around for the best moment to strike but she just can't close the distance fast enough to capitalize on most mistakes.

Those are my opinions but I know at least a few other people think she's bad.

 

[Trifroze]

Why does it matter if players that use customs place highly?

Because it was brought up.

Also when I said "bad characters" I mean ones that you'd be very surprised to see winning stacked tournaments.

 

[Djent]

The funny thing with customs is that playing with them more often increases the chances that the devs will balance them (they're watching us ). So I hope they remain at least somewhat popular through (probable) future patches.
Also, get a load of Fye beating Mook and Aerolink.
Losing to a R.O.B. though, this aint Brawl anymore son.

 

[Project Quarantine]

the only perceived bad character that doesnt gain that much from customs is .

 

[Mr. Johan]

Speed Thunder is so good, whatchu talking about.

Fire Wall also helps makes Wario and Yoshi honest.

But for customs as a whole, yeah, they're bad. Speed Thunder being really good helps alleviate the pain that Sakurai and Namco were drunk as **** when making Robin's customs though.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

I hate to do this, but

@ Raziek

smoke this fool

Smooth Criminal

 

[Raziek]

Yo what?

Have you like, actually seen Speed Thunder? Are you uninformed, or just incorrect?

 

[DunnoBro]

Pikachu, Rosalina, Mario, Wario and Sonic (plus possibly Fox and Ness) benefit considerably from customs and they're already top characters who command the viability of the rest of the characters.

Note I said topmost, and generally, most of those characters are pretty much solo repped at the highest level play.

Fox and especially ness don't benefit much from customs at all, ness gets a sidegrade recovery and something to use with no energy around, and fox gets a situational air dodge punish.

Sonic's benefit in customs are also stage and matchup dependent.

Making the likes of DK, Ganondorf, Mega Man, Palutena and Villager better with customs will make them more viable in the sense that it lets them compete with a lot of viable characters, however at the same time the formerly mentioned characters will make everyone else's time even worse than before. It's not a good trade especially on a national or international level.

And shulk, charizard, bowser, mii fighters, marth, toon link, GnW, and likely others who simply haven't had their potentials unlocked yet. I was pretty much the only competitive DHD who thought zigzag was any good at first. (or rather, eventually)


But again, good characters getting better is irrelevant if enough characters arise that can contend with them in a healthy environment. And it's too soon to say for sure if they do, but so far default characters are still dominating, and we're only seeing stronger showings from low tiers.

We don't actually know yet who isn't benefiting from customs, but I will say, it certainly seems like there's far more cases of "X becomes viable with customs" than "Y becomes non-viable with customs"

If characters are non-viable either way, I don't see why we should hold back the meta for them

I try to watch Xanadu every week and I think the biggest reason there's so little customs in top 3 is because Boss uses Luigi who doesn't benefit from them and Seagull seems to prefer not to use hammer spindash. Didn't you make it to top 3 with custom DHD though? Average Joe has also made it to top 3 quite a few times with custom DK, although maybe not recently.

I used default yoshi in top 3, but yea I generally use custom DHD in customs on. I think default yoshi is overall better and easier, though. And plan on switching to him as my main in default

Why does it matter if players that use customs place highly?

Also, I thought Floating Missile was deemed better than default, and all of Luigi's fireballs sound good on paper. Average Joe gets high placings without customs as well.

I forget his explanation of float missile, but boss noted iceballs have way less priority and don't frame trap for grabs, cover his or his opponents return to neutral, and noted a lot of characters could just dash attack through it and hit him. Being less spammable while stationary is a problem, too. He thinks there might be matchups they're better in, but he doesn't see those at xanadu. (iceballs lose to all dhds projectiles, whereas default beats them all, worse against spindash too)

 

[Project Quarantine]

Speed Thunder is so good, whatchu talking about.

Fire Wall also helps makes Wario and Yoshi honest.

But for customs as a whole, yeah, they're bad. Speed Thunder being really good helps alleviate the pain that Sakurai and Namco were drunk as **** when making Robin's customs though.

In general, I don't see any real upgrade or tool to be used consistently I guess other than speed thunder.

Honestly they were probably drunk when they made Robin as a whole

"Lets make a character who can only use specials a certain amount if times, then let's make him super slow" (in japanese)

Kappa

 

[Ulevo]

Are we any closer to a consensus as to whether or not Custom Moves should be the competitive standard?

The arguments for customs being a relevant meta thus far have been "its more balanced." While this is sort of hogwash, since the custom meta does not need a justification to be a valid format, it does make its way in to the debate on whether or not it should be the format.

This answer will ultimately come to form after EVO. With that said, I am inclined to say no for a variety of reasons.

#1: Customs on is not definitively more balanced than customs off, for those who would suggest such a reason. In order to state this semi-objectively, we would have needed to have formed tier lists that are reasonably accurate and accepted by general consensus for both metagames in order to have even a vague idea on the relative balance comparitively. We are simply not there yet. Anyone arguing this, or using balance for or against the customs meta is doing this through perceived balance, usually using anecdotal evidence, current trends, or outlier examples. Just because Ganondorf suddenly becomes viable does not mean the custom meta has more viable candidates, nor is the inverse true. In short, balance is relative, and we do not have the precedent for comparisons.

#2: Customs is a pain in the ass, honestly. While the methods for setup outlined by @Amazing Ampharos help to streamline the process, they are time consuming to unlock at home for those without a 3DS and require a community consensus generated list of predetermined movesets. I myself still do not have all of them unlocked, and I know plenty of players who do not either, making practicing for custom moves suboptimal in many cases. Vanilla is simply more convenient to run, more convenient to play, and more accessible.

#3: Something people do not really consider is how customs in some cases depreciate the depth of top level competitive play. If customs definitively offer a wider cast of viable characters, is this more important than a deep competitive experience? Considering that Melee has survived strong competitively for so long with a viable cast of only 9 characters, I would say no.

When most players talk about whether or not customs increase the relative depth of the game, they attribute that to the amount of options a character has in lieu of their alternative move choices. What needs to be understood here is that this should not be our primary focus of competitive player skill. Additionally, many of these moves invalidate or trivialize the other qualities of the character. If Donkey Kong is able to use Kong Cyclone to conquer the bracket when he otherwise would be unable to do so, does it really matter in the end what else his moveset has to offer? I watched Mii Brawler net a kill against ESAM's Pikachu in the middle of Smashville at 29% from a grab. A play like this in vanilla normally is the result of extreme player error or a brilliant outplay. This unfortunately is just another day at the office in the customs meta.

#4: There are future concerns for customs, such as whether or not they will receive balance changes, and whether or not future DLC characters will receive custom moves, that have yet to be addressed. Assuming neither of these come to pass, it makes it harder to justify having customs as the standard.