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Character Competitive Impressions

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Dabuz

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That's because she is super difficult to play at top level. Being paper light and forced to fight up close and apply pressure vs. most characters (Yes, I know needles shut down some characters) leaves her in the category of one mistake can be death, and not knowing a MU when everyone knows the MU against Sheik is just awful, so at this point in the meta there aren't enough who are gonna be playing on point enough to abuse the character, not make mistakes, know MUs, ect. Even then, single reads on her can close out games so there's a certain human element that limits her. However she has all the frames to say when Sheik players become more proficient, a lot of characters won't be able to touch her, but right now only the top echelon of Sheiks are even getting close to that point.
 
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Trifroze

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Why wasn't this talked about more? Is the relationship between knockback and hitstun linear or curved? Does damage factor in at all? What were the exact tests done? Ect. Ect.
With the down throws of Falcon, Diddy and ZSS, airdodging out of hitstun limit caps first at around 30-70%, while attacking out of hitstun limit caps second at roughly 70-110% and jumping out of hitstun limit caps last at 140-190% or so. Weight and hitstun are related however, these cap %s are higher for heavier characters which is why heavies were seemingly able to jump out of hitstun faster when I was comparing lightweights and heavies at around 120%. I personally always thought comboing heavies is easier because they receive the same amount of hitstun while receiving less knockback due to their weight, but it seems hitstun is directly related to knockback.

Not every move behaves in the same way though, for example Falcon's uair hitstun frames are 51 / 56 / 60 at 80% but 100 / 100 / 101 at 180%. Thus, it doesn't seem to be linear. The way I tested this was by simply viewing a recorded 60fps files frame by frame. Was originally testing completely different things (Falcon's dthrow to knee character specific setups) but the hitstun caught my attention since I was able to land the knees easier on jumps the higher the % was, while airdodging always saved the opponent after 40-60% depending on the character. Here's some numbers for the sake of comparison (tested at 180%):

Falcon's dthrow: 42 / 47 / 55
Diddy's dthrow: 43 / 53 / 60
ZSS' dthrow: 42 / 47 / 52
Diddy's uthrow: 49 / 49 / 57
Falcon's uair: 100 / 100 / 101 stronger hitbox, 91 / 94 / 94 weaker hitbox
Diddy's uair: 72 / 81 / 81
ZSS' uair: 78 / 85 / 85

It's pretty clear that the stronger the move is the more hitstun it tends to inflict and the further it scales. Airdodging is generally the fastest option but it gets tied with other options at cap sometimes, and jumping seems to never be the fastest option (it probably caps last always). There doesn't seem to be any universal logic in this other than that though.
 
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Cassio

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With the down throws of Falcon, Diddy and ZSS, airdodging out of hitstun limit caps first at around 30-70%, while attacking out of hitstun limit caps second at roughly 70-110% and jumping out of hitstun limit caps last at 140-190% or so. Weight and hitstun are related however, these cap %s are higher for heavier characters which is why heavies were seemingly able to jump out of hitstun faster when I was comparing lightweights and heavies at around 120%. I personally always thought comboing heavies is easier because they receive the same amount of hitstun while receiving less knockback due to their weight, but it seems hitstun is directly related to knockback.

Not every move behaves in the same way though, for example Falcon's uair hitstun frames are 51 / 56 / 60 at 80% but 100 / 100 / 101 at 180%. Thus, it doesn't seem to be linear. The way I tested this was by simply viewing a recorded 60fps files frame by frame. Was originally testing completely different things (Falcon's dthrow to knee character specific setups) but the hitstun caught my attention since I was able to land the knees easier on jumps the higher the % was, while airdodging always saved the opponent after 40-60% depending on the character. Here's some numbers for the sake of comparison (tested at 180%):

Falcon's dthrow: 42 / 47 / 55
Diddy's dthrow: 43 / 53 / 60
ZSS' dthrow: 42 / 47 / 52
Diddy's uthrow: 49 / 49 / 57
Falcon's uair: 100 / 100 / 101 stronger hitbox, 91 / 94 / 94 weaker hitbox
Diddy's uair: 72 / 81 / 81
ZSS' uair: 78 / 85 / 85

It's pretty clear that the stronger the move is the more hitstun it tends to inflict and the further it scales. Airdodging is generally the fastest option but it gets tied with other options at cap sometimes, and jumping seems to never be the fastest option (it probably caps last always). There doesn't seem to be any universal logic in this other than that though.
Wheres @ KuroganeHammer KuroganeHammer @Thinkaman etc for this, lol. I know yall are busy folks but I think we definitely need a thread to investigate how this works if you find time.

Also is it:
Airdodge/Attack/Jump?
 
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Dabuz

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What about the correlation between rage and hitstun? When I was playing Vinnie in Rosa vs. Sheik, when he was about 100% and I was 80%, he could do fthrow ->upair (or maybe it was dthrow) for a kill combo if I didn't airdodge. However, it didn't work if the percents were swapped even if the knockback was the same, not only did that not kill combo, it didn't combo period even if I didn't airdodge. So is it possible that rage increases hitstun? The best way to test this would probably just be using a move at X %, seeing it's knockback, then find the corresponding amount of rage needed for that amount of knockback at a lower %.

Edit: Also, is it possible to fastfall airdodge out of hitstun as early as soon as you can airdodge? If not, when is the earliest you can?
 
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bc1910

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So hitstun actually has different values applied to different moves in this game rather than scaling with knockback? Is this the first time hitstun isn't calculated as a proportion of knockback and scaled in the same way for every move?

All this time I thought people saying "x move has loads of hitstun" were wrong because hitstun is just a proportion of knockback thus every move has the same hitstun multiplier. Seems like I was the one who was wrong! In my defence I'm pretty sure this is the first time hitstun has acted this way in the entire series.
 
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Gunla

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His twitter (Also contains quite a bit of language). Not going to say anything beyond the source as I'd rather it not become a point of discussion, as it'd just derail things.

Going back to a point Dabuz brought up, I'm in agreement that the Sheik meta has some ways to go. Optimized Sheik is definitely going to be terrifying and will shut many characters down, potentially from viability, but Sheik is a demanding character, especially with approaching and being light, with some punishes meaning stocks are taken down. (Again, the game hasn't been out for a year, so this is understandable; for players to find out every single detail and optimize a character Sheik fully in such a short period of time is a rather unlikely scenario.)
 
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Trifroze

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What about the correlation between rage and hitstun? When I was playing Vinnie in Rosa vs. Sheik, when he was about 100% and I was 80%, he could do fthrow ->upair (or maybe it was dthrow) for a kill combo if I didn't airdodge. However, it didn't work if the percents were swapped even if the knockback was the same, not only did that not kill combo, it didn't combo period even if I didn't airdodge. So is it possible that rage increases hitstun? The best way to test this would probably just be using a move at X %, seeing it's knockback, then find the corresponding amount of rage needed for that amount of knockback at a lower %.

Edit: Also, is it possible to fastfall airdodge out of hitstun as early as soon as you can airdodge? If not, when is the earliest you can?
Rage probably increases hitstun seeing how hitstun still seems relative to knockback. You seem to be able to fastfall on the same frame you can attack, so airdodge + fastfall or airdodge + drift doesn't work. You're locked into a slow downwards airdodge which is why 50:50s are so good.

So hitstun actually has different values applied to different moves in this game rather than scaling with knockback? Is this the first time hitstun isn't calculated as a proportion of knockback and scaled in the same way for every move?

All this time I thought people saying "x move has loads of hitstun" were wrong because hitstun is just a proportion of knockback thus every move has the same hitstun multiplier. Seems like I was the one who was wrong! In my defence I'm pretty sure this is the first time hitstun has acted this way in the entire series.
I think hitstun is still a property of knockback. It's just that the relation between the frames when you can airdodge, attack or jump out of hitstun seems inconsistent at different percents.
 
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Ikes

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probably wont reach that point before daddy sakurai nukes :4sheik:.
Just an idea, but how much worse would sheik be if needles could be attacked back at sheik, like gordos?

say an attack is tossed out at the needles as they're being tossed, if it sent every single needle back, how big of a nerf would that be?
 

Smog Frog

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a better nerf to the needles would be gravity working against them. they dont go as far and do less damage the farther they go. also makes sense.
 

Smog Frog

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How would it do less than 1%?
there are certain multi hit moves that do less than 1% on some hits(:4sonic: fair, :4fox:fair i think is one, :4darkpit:/:4pit: nair have some hits, etc) but its a decimal instead(so that there's still damage, its just a decimal and thus doesnt show up on the % display.)
 

bc1910

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@ Ikes Ikes People will tell you that any nerf to needles would drop Sheik to mid tier. Generally though these players seem to be people who play characters who just get owned by needles :p Realistically I think the nerf you described would drop Sheik to the bottom of top tier or MAYBE the top of high tier, she would shut down fewer characters completely but you still have the excellent frame data making her hard to touch as Dabuz alluded to.

@ Trifroze Trifroze @ Dabuz Dabuz I believe you cannot fast fall for quite a while after hitstun, as Trizfroze said you definitely can't buffer fastfall airdodge out of hitstun but I don't think you can fastfall on the frame you can attack or even jump out of hitstun. You have to wait for several more frames. I don't have an exact number though.
 
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Mr. Johan

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Just an idea, but how much worse would sheik be if needles could be attacked back at sheik, like gordos?

say an attack is tossed out at the needles as they're being tossed, if it sent every single needle back, how big of a nerf would that be?
a better nerf to the needles would be gravity working against them. they dont go as far and do less damage the farther they go. also makes sense.
Just make the Needles be affected by gravity and air friction. The farther the needles go, the closer they are to the ground and less damage and/or hitstun they do, to the point that at max range, the damage output is almost nonexistent.

It makes sense for Lasers and magic to ignore gravity and friction because they're concentrated light and magic. Not so much sense for metal needles.


Alternatively, make the needles clankable, and if you clank the first needle in a series, you clank them all.
More like clanking the first needle creates a domino effect, with the first needle serving as the barrier that blocks the second needle, which is then a barrier that blocks the third, and so on.
Can I claim copyright? =P


Something that could also be done is if Sheik (and Diddy, now that I think of it) get hit out of Bouncing Fish/Monkey Flip, or they get hit after using it but before hitting the ground, they can't use the move again until they hit the ground. As it is right now, hitting them out of it is almost pointless because they can just regain their distance with the move and their additional recoveries afterward.

Also remove invincibility on Vanish. No good reason why this thing has invincibility through all the startup, and an explosion and a windbox at the end.
 

Locke 06

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Who's the mega man who won/got 2nd in a national?

Regards to that matchup, if Sheik disrespects the utilt, she dies. Dash attack/smash on shield? Utilt. Usually with rage. She has to be content to chip until 160 or be very precise with her kill moves while Mega is on the ground. She can do this, as she is the safe pressure chip damage queen. She is regarded as Mega's worst matchup by many (the notables and the mostly unknowns).

The biggest issue is that Mega's approach is not good (MB game helps, but you have to get one out first) and needles are dumb. About half of the match is played with Mega above 70% because he loses low %'s too hard but wins/is even at high % (except needles).

Dabuz-
You can't fast fall while in tumble, air dodge animation, or ascending via jump (I don't think you can if you have any upwards velocity, but I don't know for sure). So you cannot fast fall air dodge out of hitstun.
 

bc1910

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Can I claim copyright? =P


Something that could also be done is if Sheik (and Diddy, now that I think of it) get hit out of Bouncing Fish/Monkey Flip, or they get hit after using it but before hitting the ground, they can't use the move again until they hit the ground. As it is right now, hitting them out of it is almost pointless because they can just regain their distance with the move and their additional recoveries afterward.

Also remove invincibility on Vanish. No good reason why this thing has invincibility through all the startup, and an explosion and a windbox at the end.
Sheik doesn't get BF back if you hit her out of it. Diddy shouldn't get his side B back though yeah, and come to think of it neither should Fox.
 

Ffamran

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Sheik doesn't get BF back if you hit her out of it. Diddy shouldn't get his side B back though yeah, and come to think of it neither should Fox.
Captain Falcon, Ganondorf, Ike, Falco, Luigi, and practically everyone gets their Side Special and Up Special - basically the recovery moves - back if they get hit. If Fox, Diddy, Sheik, or ZSS didn't that's kind of unfair and in some cases, would drag them down tiers, especially Fox, Diddy, and Luigi who already have exploitable recoveries while Little Mac shouldn't have an Up Special or Side Special if it's that pitiful.
 

bc1910

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Captain Falcon, Ganondorf, Ike, Falco, Luigi, and practically everyone gets their Side Special and Up Special - basically the recovery moves - back if they get hit. If Fox, Diddy, Sheik, or ZSS didn't that's kind of unfair and in some cases, would drag them down tiers, especially Fox, Diddy, and Luigi who already have exploitable recoveries while Little Mac shouldn't have an Up Special or Side Special if it's that pitiful.
Almost all the recovery moves that get given back are ones that put the user into helpless. It's not unfair at all for moves like Monkey Flip and Bouncing Fish, which offer freedom after use, to not get given back. You are using a much less risky recovery move and should be punished thusly for screwing up with it.
 
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Ffamran

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Almost all the recovery moves that get given back are ones that put the user into helpless. It's not unfair at all for moves like Monkey Flip and Bouncing Fish, which offer freedom after use, to not get given back. You are using a much less risky recovery move and should be punished thusly for screwing up with it.
Neither is it fair for Captain Falcon, Fox, Falco, and Ike to be able to use their Side Special and get stopped by the ledge while Ganondorf slides the frick off. It's not fair for Dr. Mario to have a wall jump even worse than Little Mac, it's not fair for Zelda to have such high risk and low rewards using her Fair and Bair compared to say, Luigi, or that she goes into helpless with a move that doesn't help her recovery at all: Din's Fire, and it's not fair that Meta Knight's hitboxes are still smaller than the animation. The game isn't fair and no game will be; some games are even made to be against the player, to be unfair.
 
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Locke 06

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Euh a spanish guy greward
Greward is the same guy who made it out of pools in apex and places well in his region. Definitely a notable mega man. He was seeded 1st in the tournament. I don't know anything about the Spanish scene outside of his placings, but I wouldn't be surprised of Greward just outplayed the person because he's good. I'll watch the video over the weekend.

As for calling that a national, I know Spain is a nation, but that is more akin to a regional. When the EU comes together for a tournament, that's a national.

If so, that's a shame that you didn't know@ Locke 06 Locke 06
You even know the guy lol
I don't keep tabs on people if they don't want to share with the class. I don't know what Zucco or NL is doing these days with regards to results.
 

bc1910

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Neither is it fair for Captain Falcon, Fox, Falco, and Ike to be able to use their Side Special and get stopped by the ledge while Ganondorf slides the frick off. It's not fair for Dr. Mario to have a wall jump even worse than Little Mac, it's not fair for Zelda to have such high risk and low rewards using her Fair and Bair compared to say, Luigi, or that she goes into helpless with a move that doesn't help her recovery at all: Din's Fire, and it's not fair that Meta Knight's hitboxes are still smaller than the animation. The game isn't fair and no game will be; some games are even made to be against the player, to be unfair.
We're talking about recovery moves being renewed on hit. The fairness of that is far easier to regulate than anything you just talked about. None of those examples are remotely relevant to our discussion.
 

KuroganeHammer

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Wheres @ KuroganeHammer KuroganeHammer @Thinkaman etc for this, lol. I know yall are busy folks but I think we definitely need a thread to investigate how this works if you find time.

Also is it:
Airdodge/Attack/Jump?
Hitstun has always been related to knockback, that's why lightweights in Melee are notoriously easy to combo (Like Pichu and Fox).

Also it's 5am, sorry if I missed the point of the post.
 
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Hippieslayer

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I dont know **** about the GnW vs DK custom matchup, but I'm kinda curious about it.

Shouldn't his uair be really dangerous given that if he manages to push DK upwards with it he will have him caught in freefall afterwards (d-tilt should also be able to do this, as well as up-b depending on spacing?) allowing him to either get an usmash punish or continue pushing dk upwards til he goes offstage and dies?

Also curious about how GnW's different up-b's interact with wind cyclone in general, they have the kind of properties which make me think the different windboxes interacting might lead to some damn buggy ****, GnW might get sent flying to his death by the windboxes alone.

Shouldn't it be somewhat feasible to up-b out of the cyclone if hit initially or able to dodge block first hit?
 

Ffamran

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We're talking about recovery moves being renewed on hit. The fairness of that is far easier to regulate than anything you just talked about. None of those examples are remotely relevant to our discussion.
Yeah, I misread your post. Sorry about that. The thing with Diddy versus Fox's and especially Falco's recovery is that Diddy's Monkey Flip is difficult to challenge since it's basically a flying sex kick or a flying grab. Can it be punished? Yes, but no competent Diddy will land onto the stage unless they have a valid reason to do so. Fox on the other hand can be hit out of Fox Illusion and Fox Illusion can't kill or gimp like Monkey Flip. Fox Illusion is also a bit easier to challenge since it has as set, linear distance and it can be clanked while Monkey Flip could end up with someone eating a kick if they mess up or the Diddy figures this out and uses the grab instead. Also, Fox is a fast faller with an average jump and average air speed. By the time he glides back from the far, upper corners of the stage, he's probably going to be below the ledge if he doesn't use Fire Fox or Fox Illusion to shoot towards the stage. Falco's in a worse situation because of Falco Phantasm having no hitbox on him, front hitbox, or a hitbox on the later end of Falco Phantasm. It's really easy to challenge his Falco Phantasm and even easier to challenge his Fire Bird since it travels much shorter than Fire Fox. At the same time, Diddy suffers if he's forced to use his Rocketbarrel Boost to recovery vertically. If he's doing it diagonally or horizontally to place a hitbox you don't really want to challenge, then Diddy's Rocketbarrel Boost is a stronger, but a more manageable recovery since he has to charge it meaning you can tell where he's heading.

So, Fox and Falco not entering helpless mode with their Side Specials is eh. I think it's there because of the SD issues where you can Side Special and shoot off the stage which I think Ganondorf should have had the same treatment or make it so his grounded Flame Choke doesn't slide off the ledge like Captain Falcon. Does it change much? Not really since Fox and Falco do the same thing for recovering: fall back near the ledge and use either Up or Side Special to recover. I don't see a lot of people Side Special then Up Special to recover since Up Special for recovering is more punishable, especially Falco. On the ground, it doesn't do much since they still stop at the ledge. And if they get hit, they're going to use either of them again just like in past games. The only Star Fox character I can see "needing" this is Wolf because his Wolf Flash traveled in an angle making SDs much, much more easier. You just have to Wolf Flash once and you'll die as Wolf if you're too close to the ledge or if you end up helpless and getting punished. Fox and Falco at least need to jump before shooting off the stage. In terms of gameplay, well, it lets Falco use a situational soft spike and Fox can Wolf Flash spike people that needs the right angle and right timing and they can sort of combo with them... that's pretty much it. Nothing insane. Diddy, however, can do more with Monkey Flip and I wouldn't be surprised if Monkey Flip footstools - the thing where you jump during Monkey Flip's grab - become a valid edgeguard for Diddy. Seriously, Diddy would just Monkey Flip, meet you halfway, and unless you're Villager, Jigglypuff, Kirby, the Pits, or Meta Knight, you're probably not making it back on stage. Or he'll kill you with a Monkey Flip kick off stage. If Diddy entered helpless mode after (a whiffed) Monkey Flip (kick), that would deter people from using it like that, but if someone can get the right timing, it's not going to mean much.

Sheik on the other hand is safe with everything. Didn't Vanish have I-frames in past games too? Bouncing Fish just makes it even more ridiculous since it's difficult to challenge. Incredible air speed, good jump, quick aerials to cover, and safe recoveries. Sheik might have been intended to be a "safe" character, but it's kind of ridiculous at times. Bouncing Fish is essentially a low-angled, can't spike Flip Jump and ZSS doesn't end up in helpless after Flip Jump. The difference? ZSS's recovery is going to be focused on Flip Jump and tethering since Boost Kick doesn't travel that well vertically. The high arc means ZSS would end up over the opponent while Sheik's going to meet head on and she's likely going to hit the opponent. Vanish allows her to go in 8 directions, can kill with the vanishing part, and the reappearing part has a windbox (that can kill Zelda if she uses Din's Fire near the ledge). Much safer than ZSS's recovery. No I-frames or reduced I-frames and/or increased end lag if she ends up on stage would make it more punishable, but the design or how Vanish works makes it a strong recovery. Here's the thing: would a weakened recovery do anything to Sheik? Smash 4 Sheik is essentially a not broken Melee Fox: a character so good on paper and with so much potential in the right hands that massive changes would have to be done to destroy her and even then, it might make her stronger. Adding knockback on her Fair to make it less comboable could allow her to gimp people much easily with the knockback, making Bair weaker took off a kill move, but that doesn't stop her from being able to combo with it, rack up damage, and kill with Bair's new KO percent or with another reliable kill move. Sheik would have to be butchered as a character; massive landing lag and ending lag, reduced range on Needles, massively reduced kill potential, and massively reduced damage output. That would destroy her character design and would make her borderline unusable.
 
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Dabuz

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Just give needles more startup/ recovery or SOMETHING, give fair more cooldown or startup, up-B distance decreased or down-b bounce back max distance decreased, character is balanced but still top tier.
 
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Goesasu

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just reduce :4sheik: range. why the **** is fair almost as big as:4marth: fair?
It isnt, but her mobility allows to get closer to the opponent than marths, so her fist can hit at a similar range.
Even if their hitboxes are similar (they arent), marth hurtbox is farther from the opponent making it safer. (but sheik f-air low lag makes it safe once again).

Sheiks great mobility can "extend" her hitboxes but always risking her hurtboxes as well, unlike swordusers that can put hitboxes right in front of you without compromising their hurtbox.
Frame data compensates that, or at least it is supossed to do it.
 

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Increase fair landing lag.
Make needles no longer pop you up, just stun you like a Falco laser.
Problem solved.
 

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Yeah, I misread your post. Sorry about that. The thing with Diddy versus Fox's and especially Falco's recovery is that Diddy's Monkey Flip is difficult to challenge since it's basically a flying sex kick or a flying grab. Can it be punished? Yes, but no competent Diddy will land onto the stage unless they have a valid reason to do so. Fox on the other hand can be hit out of Fox Illusion and Fox Illusion can't kill or gimp like Monkey Flip. Fox Illusion is also a bit easier to challenge since it has as set, linear distance and it can be clanked while Monkey Flip could end up with someone eating a kick if they mess up or the Diddy figures this out and uses the grab instead. Also, Fox is a fast faller with an average jump and average air speed. By the time he glides back from the far, upper corners of the stage, he's probably going to be below the ledge if he doesn't use Fire Fox or Fox Illusion to shoot towards the stage. Falco's in a worse situation because of Falco Phantasm having no hitbox on him, front hitbox, or a hitbox on the later end of Falco Phantasm. It's really easy to challenge his Falco Phantasm and even easier to challenge his Fire Bird since it travels much shorter than Fire Fox. At the same time, Diddy suffers if he's forced to use his Rocketbarrel Boost to recovery vertically. If he's doing it diagonally or horizontally to place a hitbox you don't really want to challenge, then Diddy's Rocketbarrel Boost is a stronger, but a more manageable recovery since he has to charge it meaning you can tell where he's heading.

So, Fox and Falco not entering helpless mode with their Side Specials is eh. I think it's there because of the SD issues where you can Side Special and shoot off the stage which I think Ganondorf should have had the same treatment or make it so his grounded Flame Choke doesn't slide off the ledge like Captain Falcon. Does it change much? Not really since Fox and Falco do the same thing for recovering: fall back near the ledge and use either Up or Side Special to recover. I don't see a lot of people Side Special then Up Special to recover since Up Special for recovering is more punishable, especially Falco. On the ground, it doesn't do much since they still stop at the ledge. And if they get hit, they're going to use either of them again just like in past games. The only Star Fox character I can see "needing" this is Wolf because his Wolf Flash traveled in an angle making SDs much, much more easier. You just have to Wolf Flash once and you'll die as Wolf if you're too close to the ledge or if you end up helpless and getting punished. Fox and Falco at least need to jump before shooting off the stage. In terms of gameplay, well, it lets Falco use a situational soft spike and Fox can Wolf Flash spike people that needs the right angle and right timing and they can sort of combo with them... that's pretty much it. Nothing insane. Diddy, however, can do more with Monkey Flip and I wouldn't be surprised if Monkey Flip footstools - the thing where you jump during Monkey Flip's grab - become a valid edgeguard for Diddy. Seriously, Diddy would just Monkey Flip, meet you halfway, and unless you're Villager, Jigglypuff, Kirby, the Pits, or Meta Knight, you're probably not making it back on stage. Or he'll kill you with a Monkey Flip kick off stage. If Diddy entered helpless mode after (a whiffed) Monkey Flip (kick), that would deter people from using it like that, but if someone can get the right timing, it's not going to mean much.

Sheik on the other hand is safe with everything. Didn't Vanish have I-frames in past games too? Bouncing Fish just makes it even more ridiculous since it's difficult to challenge. Incredible air speed, good jump, quick aerials to cover, and safe recoveries. Sheik might have been intended to be a "safe" character, but it's kind of ridiculous at times. Bouncing Fish is essentially a low-angled, can't spike Flip Jump and ZSS doesn't end up in helpless after Flip Jump. The difference? ZSS's recovery is going to be focused on Flip Jump and tethering since Boost Kick doesn't travel that well vertically. The high arc means ZSS would end up over the opponent while Sheik's going to meet head on and she's likely going to hit the opponent. Vanish allows her to go in 8 directions, can kill with the vanishing part, and the reappearing part has a windbox (that can kill Zelda if she uses Din's Fire near the ledge). Much safer than ZSS's recovery. No I-frames or reduced I-frames and/or increased end lag if she ends up on stage would make it more punishable, but the design or how Vanish works makes it a strong recovery. Here's the thing: would a weakened recovery do anything to Sheik? Smash 4 Sheik is essentially a not broken Melee Fox: a character so good on paper and with so much potential in the right hands that massive changes would have to be done to destroy her and even then, it might make her stronger. Adding knockback on her Fair to make it less comboable could allow her to gimp people much easily with the knockback, making Bair weaker took off a kill move, but that doesn't stop her from being able to combo with it, rack up damage, and kill with Bair's new KO percent or with another reliable kill move. Sheik would have to be butchered as a character; massive landing lag and ending lag, reduced range on Needles, massively reduced kill potential, and massively reduced damage output. That would destroy her character design and would make her borderline unusable.
Vanish in the past didn't have reappearing hitboxes. Her grenade also leaves her helpless for no reason.

Monkey Flip kick DOES leave Diddy pretty helpless, he can't jump or use Rocketbarrels after.

Sheik may very well be untouchable in perfect hands, but unlike Melee Fox she doesn't kill you nigh instantly
when you leave yourself open leaving more opportunities for comebacks, often assisted in this game by rage.

Increase fair landing lag.
Make needles no longer pop you up, just stun you like a Falco laser.
Problem solved.
Nobody lands with fair anyway, you'd have to increase its end lag too.
Don't the needles only pop up because of the rapid, numerous hits? If Falco's blaster shot faster could it pop up too?
 

TheReflexWonder

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Don't the needles only pop up because of the rapid, numerous hits? If Falco's blaster shot faster could it pop up too?
Nope--Sheik's Needles have a lot of knockback growth, while Falco's lasers have really low fixed knockback. You can throw a single Needle at high percents and it will knock and opponent up the same way (outside of dealing ~10% less than throwing a charged set, obviously).

  1. Needles
  2. Frame 1- 3: 1.9% 0b/180g (KO@ 423%) 60° 0.8-Hitlag Pierce
  3. Frame 4- 5: 1.2% 0b/180g (KO@ 423%) 60° 0.8-Hitlag Pierce
BEGIN falco_blaster_bullet
**********
Blaster
Frame 1- 2: 3% 100f/2w 361° 0.1-Hitlag Electric
Max Damage: 3%
 
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Project Quarantine

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Vanish in the past didn't have reappearing hitboxes. Her grenade also leaves her helpless for no reason.

Monkey Flip kick DOES leave Diddy pretty helpless, he can't jump or use Rocketbarrels after.

Sheik may very well be untouchable in perfect hands, but unlike Melee Fox she doesn't kill you nigh instantly
when you leave yourself open leaving more opportunities for comebacks, often assisted in this game by rage.



Nobody lands with fair anyway, you'd have to increase its end lag too.
Don't the needles only pop up because of the rapid, numerous hits? If Falco's blaster shot faster could it pop up too?
I'd like to point out that:

1: You can jump after Monkey Flip Kick, but you can't rocket

2: More importantly, almost all sheiks land with fair. Saying that nobody does is incorrect, and I am encouraging someon to post a video/guide for sheik showing that players do indeed land with fair.
 

KuroganeHammer

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Sheik doesn't need nerfs tbh. Get good already.

The character is gated by an incredible skill floor.

If anything, other characters should be buffed.
 

Ffamran

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Vanish in the past didn't have reappearing hitboxes. Her grenade also leaves her helpless for no reason.
If Sheik could use Burst Grenade and its customs without any consequence off stage, it would be a powerful and perhaps, borderline broken tool. She could just setup a grenade that you'll fall into and die. Din's Fire off stage is barely on the level of what Sheik could do with Burst Grenade off stage. Sure, they're both slow, but Sheik having the air speed and recovery to set it up would make it a stronger tool than Din's Fire off stage. Not having helpless mode after Din's Fire makes Zelda less inconvenienced (as if her character design isn't as messed up as is) while Burst Grenade would just add to Sheik's tools of trapping and murdering off-stage. I wouldn't be surprised if it can be used to gimp Luigi, Little Mac, Ganondorf, Bowser, and Dr. Mario because Burst Grenade would mess with their momentum.

Sheik may very well be untouchable in perfect hands, but unlike Melee Fox she doesn't kill you nigh instantly
when you leave yourself open leaving more opportunities for comebacks, often assisted in this game by rage.
Which is why I said she's like a not broken Melee Fox. If Sheik had say, Captain Falcon's kill power and still kept her strong combo game, she would be more like Melee Fox. Make her as strong as Ganondorf and we'd be dealing with the fury of a scorned woman. Her lack of killing power is like Melee Fox's need to understand him and Melee. You can't really do much with Sheik if you don't know how to use her at a very high level. You can get those Smash reads, but that's like three moves and moves that are dependent on reads, positioning, and percents. You might as well play Ganondorf and have an easier time.

Sheik is one character you cannot cookie cut like with Luigi, Diddy, Captain Falcon, Mario, and Fox since her kill options require you to understand how to setup them and when to use them. Melee Fox could at least cheese you out with Reflector spikes and land strong Smashes and aerials while Sheik is the combo and gimp master whose lack of powerful kill moves prevent her from being a broken or borderline broken character. Needles having set knockback would inconvenience her and maybe even strengthen her game since you're going to be stuck in hitstun and always there instead of being knocked back somewhere.

If anything, other characters should be buffed.
Or completely overhauled in at least how their moves work. Gee, let's have a character with short grab range have a slow grab as well. Won't that be great for Falco? That landing lag won't be a problem for Marth! Man, Lucina having no tippers makes her an excellent beginner's character. Oh no, Link's jab can "infinite" unsuspecting players! Let's add a ton of frames so he can't even jab mixup anymore. That's a good way to balance Link! And don't get me started on Zelda. THREE SWEET-SPOT AERIALS.
 
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