Character Competitive Impressions

[NickRiddle]

You throw Shot Put off-stage to get early kills. And if you throw it on plattforms at a certain angle the hitbox is very long lasting while it will slide off plattforms. Some recoveries are easily hit by it. The move would be 10 times better if it would fall about 1-5 frames longer, it almost always vanishes right before the contact.
I still think it's better than the charging punch but there are match-ups where shot put is probably completely useless.

I've never seen shot-put net early kills... That move isn't that strong...

 

[Scarlet Jile]

I have noticed that M2K ditched the uppercut in favor of the shot put. To be fair, I don't think either move is all that good, so there are probably some match-up dependencies.

 

[meleebrawler]

well yea she totally wins because of one move right??? i was totally being serious right???

's gameplan is to pressure heavily with float aerials and turnips. keyword here is pressure. you know, 's weakness. it also helps that he's the size of a house and gets hit by everything (aka food). becomes extremely limited in neutral which is basically how he wants to win the game, so he's screwed.

"homeboy" wow you really got me there

Mewtwo doesn't automatically lose when faced with pressure, it's when he can be CONSISTENTLY pressured that
he has trouble. Faster characters like Sheik and Fox can do this because they can keep up with him relatively easily
regardless of how he moves, making it hard for him to reset to neutral.

Peach, however, is not fast, at least not enough to always keep Mewtwo from playing his game. Turnips
have limited range too so Mewtwo shouldn't have too much trouble planning his moves or charging his important Shadow Ball.

Challenging an aerial Peach isn't too hard for him either, his uair has big horizontal range letting him stay away
from under Peach's feet, shadow claw is faster than Peach's fair and has more range than her nair. Heck, he can even
use disable to get Peach to keep her distance in the air. And of course I don't need to mention how nasty Mewtwo's usmash
is as anti-air.

He is a big target and prone to getting hit with combos when Peach gets in, but unlike the top tiers who are known
to give him trouble he can reset to neutral fairly easily once Peach is done her initial sequence.

 

[DunnoBro]

Shotput contradicts brawler's optimal playstyle, in your face and punishing with grabs/kicks. Also, brawler doesn't really like tacking on meaningless damage since he kills off low % combos.

Uppercut is a better approach forcing tool, and makes his contingency plan for when he failed to kill them before 100% better

 

[AnchorTea]

Shotput contradicts brawler's optimal playstyle, in your face and punishing with grabs/kicks. Also, brawler doesn't really like tacking on meaningless damage since he kills off low % combos.

Uppercut is a better approach forcing tool, and makes his contingency plan for when he failed to kill them before 100% better

Couldn't shot put be used for edgeguarding?

 

[Antonykun]

Couldn't shot put be used for edgeguarding?

brawler has so many good aerials and Feint kick is such a good recovery that he can go deep for the edgeguard

 

[DunnoBro]

Couldn't shot put be used for edgeguarding?

It can, but it's mostly a set knockback so it doesn't kill as well as you think it might. Also, brawler kills off the side. Using shotput generally means he needs to angle himself far enough from the ledge for it to get a good angle under the lip, but this means he can't pressure their return to neutral too well if it doesn't connect.

And since he gets so much off grabs by the ledge, air dodge reads by the ledge, and general punishes over there, especially at lower percents/early game, I don't think fishing for safe damage with shotput is really optimal. Also, charging uppercut is more consistent pressure, similar to needles.

I will say though, shotput is annoyingly good vs duck hunt since it beats all by projectiles, even when it's just sitting still after being thrown out. It really helps him land (similar to pills/fire balls vs duck hunt) and if he guessed right when throwing it out to beat my projectiles, I'm often in enough endlag for him to grab me. Also, uppercut isn't too relevant in that matchup since duck hunt, while punishable, hits via disjoints.

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

That is flat out incorrect since the strong hitbox and disjoint hit all the way to the ground. The lingering sourspot misses those crouches but you don't want to hit with that.

...

Are you being serious? The hitbox that reaches the ground doesn't go out until maybe half way through the move, just ducking right before they throw it out is a guaranteed miss. (Source: went to the lab for this MU)

 

[David Viran]

brawler has so many good aerials and Feint kick is such a good recovery that he can go deep for the edgeguard

He can't go too low because his vertical recovery isn't the greatest.

 

[DunnoBro]

I honestly kind of hope smawler is broken just so people will stop defaulting to smashville.

 

[David Viran]

I honestly kind of hope smawler is broken just so people will stop defaulting to smashville.

I literally ban smashville every time.

 

[AnchorTea]

I literally ban smashville every time.

I honestly kind of hope smawler is broken just so people will stop defaulting to smashville.

May I ask what is wrong with Smashville?

 

[David Viran]

May I ask what is wrong with Smashville?

I personally have no real reason other than I like battle field and FD better.

 

[Smog Frog]

May I ask what is wrong with Smashville?

smashville is incredibly boring and repetitive. its rare to have a set that isnt at least 2/3 smashville.

 

[warionumbah2]

The music is God awful too.

 

[Antonykun]

May I ask what is wrong with Smashville?

you know how sakurai made omega stages for vareity in fd stages?
well Smashville is the competitive version of Final Destination.
It's everywhere

 

[NickRiddle]

Smashville is bad... but it's Smawler's best stage, so I LOVE it~

 

[DunnoBro]

May I ask what is wrong with Smashville?

Overplayed and not nearly as neutral as people think. But in this particular case, it's pseudo-walkoff properties are exposed most fully with mii brawler, and it's the only neutral stage where he can really look broken.

Honestly, since other chars can utilize walkoff cheese on delfino and CS, I feel like it's probably his best overall stage even including CPs.

 

[Locke 06]

Pika/Sheik FAir chains on Smashville
Ness fthrow on Smashville

Gotta love those 0% kills. 0-death true combos are hype, right?

#legalizemariocircuit

 

[Unknownkid]

...

Are you being serious? The hitbox that reaches the ground doesn't go out until maybe half way through the move, just ducking right before they throw it out is a guaranteed miss. (Source: went to the lab for this MU)

Might want to test this against him since he fully convinced a space Dash Attack can hit a ducking Kirby. Though he did show a video of a Spaced Captain Falcon against a Ducked GW. Sadly, it has be confirmed that Kirby's duck is lower than that - Character Height: A Rough Start.

Then I need you to test Captain Falcon's Dash Attack (7 Frames) vs Kirby's Dtilt (4 Frames) and Ftilt (5 Frames). Next, you might want to test Falcon's Aerials against Kirby duck into Uptilt. Toss in Inhale experimenting as well for some mixed up because all Kirby is going to do is duck anyways.

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

Might want to test this against him since he fully convinced a space Dash Attack can hit a ducking Kirby. Though he did show a video of a Spaced Captain Falcon against a Ducked GW. Sadly, it has be confirmed that Kirby's duck is lower than that - Character Height: A Rough Start.

Then I need you to test Captain Falcon's Dash Attack (7 Frames) vs Kirby's Dtilt (4 Frames) and Ftilt (5 Frames). Next, you might want to test Falcon's Aerials against Kirby duck into Uptilt. Toss in Inhale experimenting as well for some mixed up because all Kirby is going to do is duck anyways.

I didn't say it ducked at all times, a properly times dash attack, yes. A properly times duck ducks under a regu;ar dash attack though.

 

[deepseadiva]

A properly times duck ducks under a regu;ar dash attack though.

This was a mess.

 

[busken]

best edge guarders in the game?

 

[Smog Frog]

best edge guarders in the game?

are all excellent edgeguarders. there are far more good edgeguarders(i'm actually tempted to say that is among the best at edgeguarding but that wouldnt be received well)

 

[Djent]

So much ducking.

Anyway really likes SV because the moving platform allows her to refresh Lightweight without (always) affording her opponent additional landing options. She's another character who probably gets free wins because of mindless defaulting.

I would have picked for best edgeguarder before the regrab normalization. Now I'd guess (I want to ride my Bicycle).

 

[Antonykun]

best edge guarders in the game?

has some of the easiest and most effective edge guarding

 

[wedl!!]

best edge guarders in the game?

(w/customs) all come to mind

 

[MatrixNexus]

I'm surprised isn't on the list.

 

[TriTails]

All Ganon needs is literally F-air/D-air/B-air them off-stage and they're pretty much dead. I can see him wrecking characters like , , and maybe more due to their recovery not having a hitbox and ledge is their life. But maaaayybbeeee Rosalina can just shot through the ledge and go super fast and land before Ganon can reach her.

Just a side note: I've noticed is actually quite good at gimping. Jumpless Cyclone rocks. B-air is the bane of 's and's recovery's existence (If they aren't experienced in stage-spike tech anyway) (I wanted to put in but he usually goes way too fast for B-air to catch him in his double jump), and F-air and D-air wrecks low tier recoveries.

got a pretty scary one too.

 

[Spinosaurus]

best edge guarders in the game?

This is something Wario really excels at.

Meta Knight, Villager and Pika are up there.

 

[Radical Larry]

best edge guarders in the game?

1-10:

Ganondorf probably has the best edge-guarding game, because at higher damages, it's almost impossible to recover (at 10%, if you're Little Mac and you don't counter, it's impossible). And even at damages about 10%, his attacks will be able to edge-guard out of proportion. He's so good at edge-guarding, he can edge-guard an edge-guarder via Flame Choke, Dark Dive, U-Air and F-Air.

Pikachu is a tie with Ganondorf, while Sheik is simply the third best edge-guarder. These ten just come into mind.
Why Falcon? Well, simple, because he has a semi-spike for a D-Tilt. Same with Link of course, but he has a lot more to him.

 

[Nu~]

best edge guarders in the game?

Jabbed hydrant and trampoline at the ledge eliminates all get up options.

Then you have fruit for every angle, and quick aerials for gimping alongside a long distance recovery.

 

[FullMoon]

Greninja's edgeguarding is to be respected as well what with being hit with Hydro Pump while using your Up-B meaning you either fall to your death or are going to eat a Smash attack. Plus his B-Air is very good at smacking people into the blast zone considering it has a long lasting good range hitbox.

I've also gimped Falcons before by using B-Air on their recovery in a way that only the first two hits connect, it often catches them by surprise and results in them not being able to use Up-B fast enough to reach the ledge.

Other methods Greninja can edgeguard people include teleporting into their face with Shadow Sneak or hitting them with a meteor D-Air if feeling ballsy enough. Shuriken can also eat double jumps if timed well and if you hit them after charging the shuriken a bit the knockback can be enough to make sure they won't come back.

He certainly has plenty of option for edgeguarding.

 

[David Viran]

Who has the most/deadliest ledge coverage?

 

[Nu~]

Who has the most/deadliest ledge coverage?

Must I remind thee of the dreaded hydrant+tramp ledge setup!?

Also, red trampolines on the ledge immediately kill opponents depending on what get up they do. Some are left to 1 get up option, others have two left, and the lucky ones keep all four.

However, some characters can't avoid this at all like mega man and Ness.

 

[Smog Frog]

spaced flamethrower on the ledge practically covers every option if the character doesnt have a huge roll. in general is amazing at covering ledge options.

 

[|RK|]

Might want to test this against him since he fully convinced a space Dash Attack can hit a ducking Kirby. Though he did show a video of a Spaced Captain Falcon against a Ducked GW. Sadly, it has be confirmed that Kirby's duck is lower than that - Character Height: A Rough Start.

Then I need you to test Captain Falcon's Dash Attack (7 Frames) vs Kirby's Dtilt (4 Frames) and Ftilt (5 Frames). Next, you might want to test Falcon's Aerials against Kirby duck into Uptilt. Toss in Inhale experimenting as well for some mixed up because all Kirby is going to do is duck anyways.

And Kirby has two duck heights because of his breathing. Which is why sometimes he ducks under KO Punch, but not other times.

(Not directed at you, unknownkid - I know you know this)

 

[Nobie]

According to this post Ally is considering becoming a Marth main because Mario is too autopilot. Given how highly Mario is regarded and how disappointed people are in Marth this sounds crazy, but it also made me wonder about how people view smash in general. There's this idea that the best players want the safest options at all times, but Ally is potentially trading in some of the best frame data in the game for a character who thrives off of getting just the right read.

 

[Teshie U]

Thats not terribly strange. Some really gifted played find the best characters in Smash 4 too easy. Its more satisfying to score KOs off of hard reads, than fishing for safe grab setups or mashing out spaced attacks that will eventually kill.

Hopefully the game can properly balance both styles and keep the riskier plays more rewarding.


Marth is truly solid with customs imo. He already has a flat out broken kill move in tipper fsmash and I wouldn't be surprised if he continued to get small buffs to become a little safer like he was in Brawl.

 

[Shaya]

Marth is a solid mid tier character now he has a consistent massive range 7 frame transcended priority move that provides positional dominance/extended advantageous state. He's still a reactionary based character at his peak, and that's one of Ally's strengths. The whole "outbuttons everyone thing" is really a thing.
But let's see how it holds against his peers at top level. Rayquaza is obviously pretty good too, but Ally is a solid pick for a North American top 5.

Match ups like Rosalina is pretty good as we've been saying all along. I kinda agree with what someone said that it's like Marth vs Snake in Brawl, in the way he was referring to it as for the whole cannot land thing, but I tend to personally think it's Ice Climberish except without the fear of death grab (i.e. hella-one sided), Ally wasn't even taking free opportunities to kill Luma when he could and the times at which he was at a deficit he instantly turned it around when he "by just trying to hit rosa" took out Luma in some situations.
Sheik is interesting, we can beat out her aerials with back air and jab/ftilt with some reliability, and she struggles at killing while we're outright dirty. Oh yeah, dolphin slash out of shield for a lot of her shield traps. But I'm not really sure Ally could beat ZeRo or Ramin with Marth. It still isn't fun against smart spacing/camping pressure.