Character Competitive Impressions

[BSP]

I personally haven't fought that many high level Ness players, but there are people in the Pac-Man thread who have fought Ness in tourney and have found that he doesn't give us much trouble.

Trampoline is the key (lol) to this matchup. He's forced to approach us from the air while we chill on the ground. Our side B can stop PK Fire and we can shorten his recovery by letting him hit our pellet.

@ BSP may be able to help more than me.

Not really. Only Ness I've fought in tournament was Lee Martin way back in the day, and that was before I realized how good trampoline is.

From a general standpoint, Ness doesn't scare me that much. What exactly is his neutral game plan when trampoline is involved? Ness isn't the most mobile of characters, so Pac-Man is at liberty to plant it all over. Ness doesn't want to sit back and let us set up things, but I don't think he prefers to come in from the air. His throws are scary, but Pac-Man's one of the best characters at avoiding grabs.

He's on the list of people that gets destroyed by trampoline on the ledge, isn't he? I'll have to look into that, because that would make grabbing the ledge = death.

Also, Pac-Man can very safely "body block" PKT2 with hydrant.

Can you elaborate on this? This is the first time I've heard of the setup (and it definitely IS a setup, it woudntske some time to prepare) but sounds brutal. Where is the trampoline positioned exactly?

In addition to what Pacman9 said, Pac-Man has alternatives if he can't set the trampoline first. A properly jab launched hydrant right next to the ledge with a trampoline under it covers every ledge option except dropping down, which may require a fast fall or air dodge to avoid the hydrant. If you ledge drop -> double jump -> aerial the hydrant to cancel it, Pac-Man can most likely Fsmash or nail you with some fruit if he has one charged unless you go back to the ledge.

If you are forced to regrab the ledge, Pac-Man gets a free Bair stage spike if he doesn't have much time, which should let him set up again. If he's got time, he gets a partial - fully charged Side B. IDK about everyone else, but I haven't had much success teching stage spikes when I'm struck in ledge grab animation with no invincibility.

If Pac-Man has a bell charged and time, he can put a trampoline on the ledge -> throw the bell on top of it from BF -> SH over the trampoline and instant throw it back down, and then be ready to punish ledge drop or do nothing. It's a similar situation, with the Bell confirming into Side B if it connects.

 

[**Gilgamesh**]

It's hard to say whether or not Sheik have any bad MU, it as like Dabuz said is a very hard character to use, and I personally only find a few sheik mains to be showing her effectively (honorable mentions goes to Zero for destroying everybody with sheik). I have seen a lot of sheiks lose to different characters, but when I see these few top level sheiks, they hold true to her elite status. However I definitely believe that sheik has no losing MU at the moment and her MU spread will only become better as Sheik Mains figure out the most optimal style for , seeing as her options/styles of play are so vast.

 

[Smog Frog]

http://www.twitch.tv/battlebuddiesgaming

rep. coming from losers through static manny(3-0 bodybag) (i didnt watch prior, but the entire venue is electric so i assume he beat some other notables)

edit: bracket reset 3-1

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Most of my mains get ***** by sheik, but I've heard Kirby does well against her (anyone care to elaborate?)

 

[Smog Frog]

Most of my mains get ***** by sheik, but I've heard Kirby does well against her (anyone care to elaborate?)

basically crouch under needles and force to approach, and can inhale for needles. similar frame data also helps.

 

[Ikes]

basically crouch under needles and force to approach, and can inhale for needles. similar frame data also helps.

kirby's needles are also straight up better

 

[SpottedCerberus]

I'm pretty sure Kirby can pull off the same ATs as well. So if the Kirby practices those, it could be pretty scary.

kirby's needles are also straight up better

They are? How are they different?

 

[Shaya]

Kirby can negate some key points in the match up. Mostly being her dominant horizontal tools (needles/fair) being poor against him.
But, as much as I think Kirby has been buffed as a character and is perhaps middle tier+, it's likely just an understood adaption away from Sheik still taking it.

Mobility differences, the underutilised grenade and down tilt. It's funny though that the main thing annoying Sheik here is the crouch yet ZSS has an easier time, mostly because Kirby doesn't have the mobility to punish shielded side-b, to her crouching is just making him a sitting duck.

 

[Nu~]

Huh. Even ZeRo is on the "customs are bad" train.

With the growing number of anti-customs people and a severe lack of good arguments for customs to stay on,(why do people keep using "adapt" and "they're part of the game")
I don't believe that they will last too long in the meta.
I personally find customs to be fun (in general) but the divide is getting too big.

 

[webbedspace]

He's been against customs since before EVO declared it was using customs. Nothing new here, except perhaps that some players will always be conservative.

 

[Lavani]

While I'm completely neutral on customs, I can't help but feel skeptical about how they're going to fly at nationals like EVO where we have a limited number of presets and no set importing, and a multitude of people who can't use the customs they want to because there happens to be 10 sets more popular than theirs (I know there was a lot of salt on twitter over this especially from Japanese smashers who had no way to contribute to the custom moveset project).

'Tis a shame that customs were implemented so poorly for the purposes of the competitive community.

 

[Shaya]

ZeRo was never really pro-customs, like many, what the community prefers is what we want, and there was widespread support at the time (online poll, etc)
Although my friends who are tournament active had all arrays of opinions on MK in Brawl, a hyper majority of them are anti-customs this generation. It's probably unfair to say this, but it seems people experiencing custom moves in tournament tend to not enjoy them (or at the least prefer customs off); this obviously isn't the case everywhere but for those with the most exposure it certainly seems it. There a lot of negative things thrown around towards customs at top level and a lot of high level play too, and those things stick and spread down the grape vine like wildfire, either because they agree and/or the social pressure/conditions.
Find me a commentated tournament with customs that the presenters aren't often estranged by what they see / results. "Positive reinforcement" is generally painted trivially or spun against it (e.g "5 minute matches with 50 ledge grabs!") too. AeroLink beats Larry and it was more of a triumph for anti-customs than pro.... what do you do? ;\

Anyway... as long as we can keep this conversation away from which is better/worse or the arguments for or against it's fine... but be really wary please.

 

[webbedspace]

Find me a commentated tournament with customs that the presenters aren't often estranged by what they see / results. "Positive reinforcement" is generally painted trivially or spun against it (e.g "5 minute matches with 50 ledge grabs!") too. AeroLink beats Larry and it was more of a triumph for anti-customs than pro.... what do you do? ;\

Shockwave (which is of course AeroLink's local weekly) has run customs exclusively for two+ months and its commentators have been admirably accepting of them.

 

[thehard]

Ditto Smash Attack, ditto Smash 4-Ever (actually I guess they're more neutral)

 

[Radical Larry]

So I finished my first tournament yesterday, and I've learned that Ganondorf can actually win a tournament. It's currently a tournament that goes on every 2 weeks and I've won it by using Ganondorf; there were some tough players like a person who played Sheik, and even my brother's friend, however, no one could stand up against Ganondorf, no matter how "advantageous" the MU was for them (in finals, the opponent used Mega Man, a character who could supposedly destroy Ganondorf). In the end, I got a flawless victory in singles.

The big things I'd note from my experience is that Ganondorf's F-Spec and N-Spec are viable options against the opponent, since I've managed to hit a plethora of them on the opponents. He's got an amazing edge-guarding game as long as you know if the opponent goes above or below the ledge, because if below, it's better to go under than over, and vice versa. Also, it's apparent that I'm able to dodge Mac's KO Punch 3 times in the same round; who knew?

Anyways, it was a fun tournament and honestly, getting a taste of the competitive scene, I will state that Ganondorf's MUs need apparent re-working. He's definitely not a bad character if he has the capability to win a tournament, and he seems, at the least, viable and solid.

Quick question to you guys; do any of you know anyone else who's won a tournament with Ganondorf?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

People think Sheik is hard to play?

 

[bc1910]

Could someone tell me why no-one was complaining about Needles in Brawl? It seems like they're virtually unchanged in this game, in fact I think they do less damage. Was it simply due to Sheik not being as good overall? I know she was underrated in Brawl but she still wasn't probably #1 like she is now.

 

[Emblem Lord]

She was hella good in Brawl but Brawl was a really stupid broken game with far stupider characters then her.

Remember tiers are about character strength relative to one another.

As an aside Burst Grenade is hella good in landing traps and ledge traps. The move is hella underrated and forces an action. It is possible to land true grab traps with it. If your opponent blocks the nade explosion and Sheik is close enough, there is enough blockstun where a grab is unavoidable.

 

[bc1910]

Mm, I thought it might be to do with MK and others being so stupid that needles weren't a big deal. Also I guess camping was stronger in that game with things like Falco's lasers, Snake and whatnot. Still I'd have thought they'd have had some attention.

 

[meleebrawler]

Mm, I thought it might be to do with MK and others being so stupid that needles weren't a big deal. Also I guess camping was stronger in that game with things like Falco's lasers, Snake and whatnot. Still I'd have thought they'd have had some attention.

She also didn't have bouncing fish and vanish was worse, plus her fair still had almost melee range so her camping
was just plain worse than it is now.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Could someone tell me why no-one was complaining about Needles in Brawl?

They didn't travel as fast as they do now. In Brawl you could powershield or reflect them, in smash 4 you can't actually do that to a good Sheik player. Shield mechanics also have changed making needles a lot harder to deal with.

She was really just average in Brawl. I don't think she'd be that good in smash 4 if needles were nerfed only a tiny bit too much.

 

[Diddy Kong]

I still think is criminally underrated.

 

[Smog Frog]

does anyone else feel that in time will invalidate lower tier characters? it may just be me but he seems very oppressive to the point of invalidating other lower tiers, in a similar but less extreme manner than .

 

[PUK]

Absolutely not. can be easily handled by half the cast and is tough for the other half, but not impossible.
Outside of and maybe no characters are countered by , and even there M2 can wall of pain for exemple.
Low level players can find him oppressive, low tier have no issues

 

[Firefoxx]

does anyone else feel that in time will invalidate lower tier characters? it may just be me but he seems very oppressive to the point of invalidating other lower tiers, in a similar but less extreme manner than .

Not everyone lower than him, like he can't really b-air wall effectively against disjoints, and super low profile crouching doesn't hard counter him or anything but is annoying enough to deal with that he can't be super oppressive against it.

But like, I don't know how Mewtwo can be a real competitive threat as long as Falcon can get inescapable knee combos at KO percents against him. And I don't know how Falco does anything at all in this matchup.

Its hard to see now since so many Falcons are still just running around doing super unsafe things, but once people start embracing his campy bull**** side life is gonna get rough for some characters.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I'm pretty sure Smog Frog is right. Some characters just seem utterly incapable of dealing with Falcon in neutral. That's pretty much a death sentence.

 

[Luco]

I hear Bowser hard counters ness

is it because tough guy shrugs off a lot of ness's specials?

I imagine PK Fire wouldnt make him flinch whatsoever, which removes one of ness's biggest grab setups

This is a large over-statement. Bowser does really well against Ness, but I'm not so sold that it's any worse than even, and personally I suspect it's a +1.

Tough Guy means PK Fire doesn't become much of a grab setup until about 50%, but a lot of people seem to think PK Fire ---> grabs is why Ness is good in this game and if they have a way to avoid/punish PK fire then they win, and I really don't like that concept.

Bowser is reasonably mobile on the ground, is the heaviest vanilla character in the game and kills very early but oh my goodness it's so easy to juggle Bowser with his average air speed and punishable landing options. He really hates being offstage against us - in other words, his disadvantaged state in this MU gives him a lot of hell. I'm also under the impression that our neutral is significantly better than his (not sure what he has that's safe against us in Neutral tbh).

He's not a bad pick against Ness but I still think we beat him out just a little bit.

Not really. Only Ness I've fought in tournament was Lee Martin way back in the day, and that was before I realized how good trampoline is.

From a general standpoint, Ness doesn't scare me that much. What exactly is his neutral game plan when trampoline is involved? Ness isn't the most mobile of characters, so Pac-Man is at liberty to plant it all over. Ness doesn't want to sit back and let us set up things, but I don't think he prefers to come in from the air. His throws are scary, but Pac-Man's one of the best characters at avoiding grabs.

He's on the list of people that gets destroyed by trampoline on the ledge, isn't he? I'll have to look into that, because that would make grabbing the ledge = death.

Also, Pac-Man can very safely "body block" PKT2 with hydrant.

This sounds plausible, but again you'd need a more experienced Ness main to comment.

 

[NickRiddle]

Did anybody watch 8bitman at TNS?
ROB is so good... and I'm so happy ZSS invalidates him.

 

[Smog Frog]

Did anybody watch 8bitman at TNS?
ROB is so good... and I'm so happy ZSS invalidates him.

is there a reason beyond juggle/combo food?

 

[TriTails]

is there a reason beyond juggle/combo food?

Probably because ZSS is a mobility monster that she can just say **** it to ROB's projectiles. Flip Jump exist also.

 

[Firefoxx]

Did anybody watch 8bitman at TNS?
ROB is so good... and I'm so happy ZSS invalidates him.

ROB just keeps doing super well at tournaments. That character just gives smart players so many tools that he always seems like a threat. I don't know if he'll ever start taking tournaments consistently, but ROB seems to be in a pretty good place in the meta right now.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Did anybody watch 8bitman at TNS?
ROB is so good... and I'm so happy ZSS invalidates him.

Invalidates is a strong word bro. The MU is in her favor but I don't buy the idea that ZSS hard counters him. Rob just has an even harder time in disadvantage state than usual, which was already bad to begin with. I wouldn't say the matchup is unwinnable, it's just clearly not in ROB's favor.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

ROB isn't very good. Character has solid tools and may do well in specific matchups but overall he's just ... nothing special. He probably has a lot of matchup that are somewhere between 0 and -1. That uthrow nerf seriously hurt him a lot.

is very good though!

 

[NachoOfCheese]

ROB isn't very good. Character has solid tools and may do well in specific matchups but overall he's just ... nothing special. He probably has a lot of matchup that are somewhere between 0 and -1. That uthrow nerf seriously hurt him a lot.

is very good though!

I disagree with the statement that the nerf to his U-throw hurts him a lot. Honestly, it's not nearly as bad as the Diddy nerf and people still agree that he's top tier. Why? Because his tools lie elsewhere. Same goes for ROB. His Up throw went being able to kill so ludicrously early to just being... a reliable kill throw. At least when Dthrow Uair stops working. And that nerf wasn't really unwarranted either. It was basically to the point that if you could CP Halberd you could get 40% kills for free.
But anyways, the nerf did hurt him but ROB still has reliable killpower in Dsmash, Usmash, Bthow, Hoo-hah, Uthrow (that's right, it still exists) and even Arm Rotor. Not to mention his unmatched onstage edgeguarding with gyro. Essentially, the Uthrow nerf took the icing off the cake.

Oh, and is very good.

 

[Browny]

I'm pretty sure Smog Frog is right. Some characters just seem utterly incapable of dealing with Falcon in neutral. That's pretty much a death sentence.

So has a Falcon done anything notable in this game yet? 7 months and I'm still seeing so much theory about him being top tier but only videos of sheik/luigi/diddy/sonic/ness/zss/pikachu/rosa actually doing anything.

 

[Firefoxx]

So has a Falcon done anything notable in this game yet? 7 months and I'm still seeing so much theory about him being top tier but only videos of sheik/luigi/diddy/sonic/ness/zss/pikachu/rosa actually doing anything.

Not really sure what you would consider "notable", but he has a large presence on a lot of power rankings.

But comparing his popularity to his results, you could easily make the argument that he isn't performing at the level of a top tier

Edit: Since the Mewtwo patch, Falcon has 4 wins in tournaments that the Smashboards rankings have categorized as Regionals. This puts him tied for second with Fox and Diddy. Sheik and Luigi are tied for first with 5 wins in Regionals. If you expand that to include large locals, Falcon drops to 5th with 7 wins. And if you expand it to include locals he rises to 3rd with 28 wins.

Obviously not all tournament wins are the same and not all tournaments are reported on Smashboards but there ya go, Falcon does best at a local level, but he is getting wins.

 

[NickRiddle]

Invalidates is a strong word bro. The MU is in her favor but I don't buy the idea that ZSS hard counters him. Rob just has an even harder time in disadvantage state than usual, which was already bad to begin with. I wouldn't say the matchup is unwinnable, it's just clearly not in ROB's favor.

I don't think ROB can ever win assuming MU knowledge... He's really easy to juggle, and is the perfect size to never really escape Boost Kick...

 

[bc1910]

Also you can airdodge out of ROB's Beep Boop really easily compared to Diddy's old Hoo Hah. So it's kind of a flaky killing option, and his other killing options aren't bad but they aren't good either because they're fairly situational.

 

[NickRiddle]

Also you can airdodge out of ROB's Beep Boop really easily compared to Diddy's old Hoo Hah. So it's kind of a flaky killing option, and his other killing options aren't bad but they aren't good either because they're fairly situational.

It's guaranteed at kill % if ROB doesn't have rage.

 

[Antonykun]

Also you can airdodge out of ROB's Beep Boop really easily compared to Diddy's old Hoo Hah. So it's kind of a flaky killing option, and his other killing options aren't bad but they aren't good either because they're fairly situational.

are we really calling that thing the Beep Boop?
Whats next calling Swordfighter's the Stomp n' Stab
btw d-tilt into dash grab is a thing for the mii