Character Competitive Impressions

[bc1910]

^Yes

It's guaranteed at kill % if ROB doesn't have rage.

Compare it to Hoo Hah, though. ROB's kill % for the Beep Boop is a lot stricter. It's to do with there being a 41 frame hitstun cap on Dhrows before you can airdodge and Diddy's Dthrow having less ending lag. I'm not totally sure if 41 frames is correct but Trifroze's tests seem to support that.

I mean it can be guaranteed but it's definitely not as reliable as Diddy's old kill confirm which I'd wager is why people aren't up in arms about ROB. Otherwise, I'm sure the internet would be filled with complaints about ROB's "guaranteed kills from a throw".

 

[NachoOfCheese]

^Yes
Otherwise, I'm sure the internet would be filled with complaints about ROB's "guaranteed kills from a throw".

 

[FullMoon]

Poor ROB gets juggled so hard.

I played an online invitational these days against a ROB player and he gave me a lot of trouble in our first match but once I figured him out I racked like 60% every time I threw him up with very little he could do in response to it.

Approaching him is a real pain though, that damned gyro...

 

[Ikes]

I disagree with the statement that the nerf to his U-throw hurts him a lot. Honestly, it's not nearly as bad as the Diddy nerf and people still agree that he's top tier. Why? Because his tools lie elsewhere. Same goes for ROB. His Up throw went being able to kill so ludicrously early to just being... a reliable kill throw. At least when Dthrow Uair stops working. And that nerf wasn't really unwarranted either. It was basically to the point that if you could CP Halberd you could get 40% kills for free.
But anyways, the nerf did hurt him but ROB still has reliable killpower in Dsmash, Usmash, Bthow, Hoo-hah, Uthrow (that's right, it still exists) and even Arm Rotor. Not to mention his unmatched onstage edgeguarding with gyro. Essentially, the Uthrow nerf took the icing off the cake.

Oh, and is very good.

ROB isn't very good. Character has solid tools and may do well in specific matchups but overall he's just ... nothing special. He probably has a lot of matchup that are somewhere between 0 and -1. That uthrow nerf seriously hurt him a lot.

is very good though!

Toon link is goddamn peachy im telling you

I wouldnt go as far as to call him a straight upgrade from link, but he's definitely got a lot of things link doesnt at the cost of very little

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Toon Link is clearly better than Link.

Like, I don't think Link is bad at all but Toon Link can be such a nightbmare to fight against. Most underrated character right now imo [now that people finally have been convinced that Wario is good].

 

[Nu~]

Toon Link is clearly better than Link.

Like, I don't think Link is bad at all but Toon Link can be such a nightbmare to fight against. Most underrated character right now imo [now that people finally have been convinced that Wario is good].

Uhhh, peach?

 

[David Viran]

Uhhh, peach?

Alot of people think I peach is good tho. Underrepresented does not equal underrated.

 

[Luco]

Where is Pink Fresh these days? He was doing a lot for and then I heard nothing for a good time. I wonder if he's gonna come back to come the end of the month?

 

[Nu~]

Where is Pink Fresh these days? He was doing a lot for and then I heard nothing for a good time. I wonder if he's gonna come back to come the end of the month?

I thought he mained pit now?

 

[BiRdZ]

I thought he mained pit now?

Whenever he plays at Xanadu, he plays Pit. He might switch back to Lucas when he comes out.

 

[bc1910]

Toon link is goddamn peachy im telling you

I wouldnt go as far as to call him a straight upgrade from link, but he's definitely got a lot of things link doesnt at the cost of very little

Yeah, this seems to be a running theme with the clones. Marth is better than Lucina in many situations and MUs. I know some Pikachu players think Lucina does better because her Fsmash kills them really early but other than that and perhaps vs other light characters there's not much reason to use her over Marth. Pit is pretty much a straight Dark Pit upgrade, his Side B and Arrows are better in most situations and his Ftilt is better in almost every situation, I don't see why Dark Pit's is weaker with no compensation elsewhere in his moveset. Doc and Mario are less clone-y than the other two but Mario is still better almost all of the time. Link and Toon Link aren't full clones (at least I consider them semi-clones) but yeah, as you said, Tink gains a lot compared to Link while losing very little.

Dark Pit and Pit annoy me the most. There really is almost no reason to use his edgy alter-ego outside a couple of specific MUs. They're patching this game, I don't see why they can't differentiate the clones more.

 

[Ikes]

so when is smashcapps starting the next monthly tier list poll? Cant find it anywhere on r/smashbros

 

[David Viran]

So I was trying to see how negative zss's dsmash in training. I found out that if the person sheilds at the last second but doesn't PS than they take longer to sheild drop. Natural oos options are the same. I'm thinking this is the frames that you are stuck in sheild carrying over but I thought it didn't do that.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

So I was trying to see how negative zss's dsmash in training. I found out that if the person sheilds at the last second but doesn't PS than they take longer to sheild drop. Natural oos options are the same. I'm thinking this is the frames that you are stuck in sheild carrying over but I thought it didn't do that.

That shouldn't happen if something hits the shield.

 

[David Viran]

That shouldn't happen if something hits the shield.

I know. I don't know what else it is tho.

 

[SpottedCerberus]

Toon Link is clearly better than Link.

Like, I don't think Link is bad at all but Toon Link can be such a nightbmare to fight against. Most underrated character right now imo [now that people finally have been convinced that Wario is good].

I have to agree that Toon Link is better. And he has far better customs. I don't think he's the most underrated character though.

Meta Knight might be, if people actually still think he's low-tier.

Mega Man would be another contender. Mega Man has strong match-ups, particularly against top-tier characters. The only one who he really matches up poorly against is Sheik. But I think people's opinions of him have raised quite a bit over time, so I don't know where the community stands on him currently.

Peach too, although seeing as she's so often cited as the most underrated character, I'm not certain she is underrated anymore.

 

[Blobface]

Snip

I honestly prefer what Xanadu and a few other big tourneys have been doing where they either alternate between customs on and customs off or have separate brackets. I know not every tourney has the resources/time to do this, but I'd say that every tourney that can should.

 

[oldkingcroz]

Far better customs? Fire arrow is ok and quick bombs are decent. His boomerang that goes through people has it's uses. But they are definitely not as good as power arrows and meteor bombs. Power arrows are really good landing traps/intimidation and meteor bombs are pretty scary in battle. And Link's other boomerang acts like the classic one, which is easier to use (and doesn't backfire).

 

[Jams.]

http://www.twitch.tv/battlebuddiesgaming

rep. coming from losers through static manny(3-0 bodybag) (i didnt watch prior, but the entire venue is electric so i assume he beat some other notables)

edit: bracket reset 3-1

Is there a Challonge link for this tournament anywhere? I tried looking around but no luck. =/

I guess to add to ROB results, Holynightmare won GOML 2015, beating NAKAT in a bracket reset. (http://challonge.com/goml2015smash4singles)

All these results from ROB players are making me re-evaluate my opinion of him. It seems like his results have improved post patch, though it might just be bias and lack of knowledge on my part. I still believe some characters destroy him (Sheik, Mario, ZSS, possibly Villager, etc.), but ROB does seem capable of winning events or getting high placings with a good bracket.

 

[Ikes]

Far better customs? Fire arrow is ok and quick bombs are decent. His boomerang that goes through people has it's uses. But they are definitely not as good as power arrows and meteor bombs. Power arrows are really good landing traps/intimidation and meteor bombs are pretty scary in battle. And Link's other boomerang acts like the classic one, which is easier to use (and doesn't backfire).

fire arrows are like land mines though, they're up there with the likes of trip saplings, they're just stupidly good

also floating boomerang is nice for combos and setups since you have more time to initiate the combo before it lands

 

[Hippieslayer]

Huh. Even ZeRo is on the "customs are bad" train.

With the growing number of anti-customs people and a severe lack of good arguments for customs to stay on,(why do people keep using "adapt" and "they're part of the game")
I don't believe that they will last too long in the meta.
I personally find customs to be fun (in general) but the divide is getting too big.

Because adapt is a good argument since the reason customs are considered janky is because people dont know them since there are a lot of them to learn? Because they are part of the game and offer much greater depth and room for developing personal playstyles as well as making a lot more characters competitively viable than in the default meta and because removing a large part of the game because people are lazy and shortsighted goes against all reason? Moreover its ridiculous to argue that since a few characters have customs which give them special attacks which their whole gameplan then revolves around customs are OP/Jank/Stupid and need to be banned, this is already the case with a bunch regular special attacks which people do not mind since they aren't called custom attacks.

Because all the arguments against customs are just as repetitive with the difference that they are fallacious in nature? Because if customs are banned the metagame will begin to stale much faster and once they are largely banned competitive level players will not want them introduced again since that would lower their chances of winning unless they learn a bunch of stuff?

Afaik never seen anyone complain about customs @TourneyLocator. And if Aerolink beating Larry is something that benefits the anti-customs side I don't know what to say. Larry himself said he had no experience against custom Palutena. He then proceeded to fight the best custom Palutena in the world and lost and this is a problem why? The discourse is ****ed.

 

[SpottedCerberus]

Far better customs? Fire arrow is ok and quick bombs are decent. His boomerang that goes through people has it's uses. But they are definitely not as good as power arrows and meteor bombs. Power arrows are really good landing traps/intimidation and meteor bombs are pretty scary in battle. And Link's other boomerang acts like the classic one, which is easier to use (and doesn't backfire).

Fire arrows are amazing at stage control. They make approach extremely difficult, because you can't just powershield them. Power arrows take too long to fire iirc, because the uncharged shots are useless. I've never really played with meteor bombs too much, but I didn't know they were highly regarded. I SD too much anyways, so they're not my thing.

 

[Ikes]

Fire arrows are amazing at stage control. They make approach extremely difficult, because you can't just powershield them. Power arrows take too long to fire iirc, because the uncharged shots are useless. I've never really played with meteor bombs too much, but I didn't know they were highly regarded. I SD too much anyways, so they're not my thing.

the uncharged shots are entirely useful since it effectively creates a wall right in front of you, and firing arrows already has low endlag so it's hard to punish. I rarely bother with charging them since i can space myself and just cover the stage

 

[Radical Larry]

Toon Link and Link are good, but Link has more kill power to him and a better aerial game due to reach, speed and safety. Toon Link has a less safe air game off stage than Link because of the D-Air. Though Toon Link is able to rack up great aerial combos and has a somewhat more useful projectile game without Customs.

However, in terms of Customs, Toon Link doesn't have better customs than Link, not by a long shot. There are more benefits to Link's customs than Toon Link has to his own; while Link's are more safe and efficient, Toon Link's are very unreliable and quite useless.

 

[Antonykun]

Toon Link and Link are good, but Link has more kill power to him and a better aerial game due to reach, speed and safety. Toon Link has a less safe air game off stage than Link because of the D-Air. Though Toon Link is able to rack up great aerial combos and has a somewhat more useful projectile game without Customs.

However, in terms of Customs, Toon Link doesn't have better customs than Link, not by a long shot. There are more benefits to Link's customs than Toon Link has to his own; while Link's are more safe and efficient, Toon Link's are very unreliable and quite useless.

I would not call bomb arrows useless

 

[Ikes]

Toon Link and Link are good, but Link has more kill power to him and a better aerial game due to reach, speed and safety. Toon Link has a less safe air game off stage than Link because of the D-Air. Though Toon Link is able to rack up great aerial combos and has a somewhat more useful projectile game without Customs.

However, in terms of Customs, Toon Link doesn't have better customs than Link, not by a long shot. There are more benefits to Link's customs than Toon Link has to his own; while Link's are more safe and efficient, Toon Link's are very unreliable and quite useless.

Link's aerials are slower and all of his ground attacks have more endlag and startlag, and I wouldnt say his aerial game is better since he's got such poor aerial mobility compared to Tink.

Also, Fire arrows are easily one of the best customs in the game.

 

[Djent]

I'm starting to warm up to , whose only death sentence in Brawl was the omnipresence of . I'm skeptical that he's actually "good," but he's already improved his lot if the worst thing he has to worry about is .

And yeah, I think is good. was likely better before Nintendo ruined his jab but he's poop now, and his younger self is once again the preferable pick. He probably does alright vs. // anyway.

 

[oldkingcroz]

Toon Link's Fire Arrows are good at setting traps, and the trajectory is great for ledge guarding, seeing that beneath him is his main blind spot. I use them much more often than I do regular arrows. He loses a long range option, though, which means less projectile harassment. I'll admit they are decent, in terms of customs. But his bombs, up B, and boomerang aren't anything to write home about. I haven't played too much around with the short fuse bombs, since I prefer to sit on them, and wait for an ideal time to use it. Are short fuse bombs helpful for recovery? I do like his custom boomerangs, but, they aren't too different (fade through is pretty nifty, though, a trap).

But in terms of how good his custom moves are, they are nowhere near the same level as Palutina, Mii, Ganon, Kirby, DK, Ike, Villager, Mario, Duck Hunt, and Game and Watch who all benifit greatly from all 4 custom specials. Toon Links are all pretty average (with fire arrows being pretty solid). Link at least has 2 customs that give him more kill options, and a more reliable boomerang. Kill options trumps traps, in my opinion.

 

[Luco]

I have to agree that > , but I don't think they're that far apart. Link seems to have a semi-functioning camping game this time (is it longer shield drop that makes it harder to work through?), although on the other hand I've always had a bit more trouble with than I rightfully should, even in Brawl.

 

[David Viran]

I have to agree that > , but I don't think they're that far apart. Link seems to have a semi-functioning camping game this time (is it longer shield drop that makes it harder to work through?), although on the other hand I've always had a bit more trouble with than I rightfully should, even in Brawl.

Same sheild drop frames as brawl.

 

[Ikes]

Toon Link's Fire Arrows are good at setting traps, and the trajectory is great for ledge guarding, seeing that beneath him is his main blind spot. I use them much more often than I do regular arrows. He loses a long range option, though, which means less projectile harassment. I'll admit they are decent, in terms of customs. But his bombs, up B, and boomerang aren't anything to write home about. I haven't played too much around with the short fuse bombs, since I prefer to sit on them, and wait for an ideal time to use it. Are short fuse bombs helpful for recovery? I do like his custom boomerangs, but, they aren't too different (fade through is pretty nifty, though, a trap).

But in terms of how good his custom moves are, they are nowhere near the same level as Palutina, Mii, Ganon, Kirby, DK, Ike, Villager, Mario, Duck Hunt, and Game and Watch who all benifit greatly from all 4 custom specials. Toon Links are all pretty average (with fire arrows being pretty solid). Link at least has 2 customs that give him more kill options, and a more reliable boomerang. Kill options trumps traps, in my opinion.

fire arrows pop your opponents just high enough to be easily followed up with any aerial on the entire cast. they're like mini bombs.

 

[Meru.]

So has a Falcon done anything notable in this game yet? 7 months and I'm still seeing so much theory about him being top tier but only videos of sheik/luigi/diddy/sonic/ness/zss/pikachu/rosa actually doing anything.

Saiya places very well with him in Japan.

 

[Smog Frog]

http://www.twitch.tv/evenmatchupgaming

nakats in attendance, and ryoko is repping . turn off your volume though, the commentators are very easily excited and very loud

edit: the chats also very toxic

 

[Macedonian]

i think think having a stronger killing throw, better air snd ground speed, less laggier attacks, makes tink the better link

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Toon link's up air is scary af.

 

[LiteralGrill]

so when is smashcapps starting the next monthly tier list poll? Cant find it anywhere on r/smashbros

Hi. I tend to do these when it's actually the next month. Since it's still May, I haven't put it up yet (at least in my timezone). So um, expect it soon I spose.

Other than that, I REALLY wanna hear some opinions on things. Is there a reason people think that all he matchups are so close? I feel weird, but looking at top tiers I really do feel like there's a significant wall between viable and unviable, and it's going to grow with game knowledge.

 

[Pyr]

@ LiteralGrill My blunt opinion in that regard is that I doubt many people want to accept that truly bad matchups exist in the game when it was advertised as super balanced. That, and no one likes to have a bad matchup in general, either. If things are more even, things just feel more possible.

In short, lots of bias.

 

[Nobie]

Hi. I tend to do these when it's actually the next month. Since it's still May, I haven't put it up yet (at least in my timezone). So um, expect it soon I spose.

Other than that, I REALLY wanna hear some opinions on things. Is there a reason people think that all he matchups are so close? I feel weird, but looking at top tiers I really do feel like there's a significant wall between viable and unviable, and it's going to grow with game knowledge.

It's all relative. No matter how bad the matchups might be in Smash 4, there just aren't any characters whose tools are so vastly superior that it makes winning seem impossible. There's no Sheik vs. Bowser, there's no Dedede chain grabbing half the cast, there's no Meta Knight doing what Meta Knight does. Like just compare Sheik vs. Bowser in Melee and Sheik vs. Bowser in Smash 4. Sheik has the edge in both games, but due to a variety of factors, including rage + sheer power/range buffs, Sheik can never truly feel comfortable.

Even characters that feel low tier (and might very well be low tier) still feel as if they have a solid game plan or two to execute. The best way I can describe this feeling, and why I think it lends towards people feeling that all characters carry a fighting chance, is that in previous games a lot of the game plan for worse characters is to approximate what the better characters do with a poor man's substitute. But no other character quite plays like Dedede in Smash 4, Mewtwo's up throw + rage makes it a constant threat even when the chips are down, Palutena's elaborate bag o' tricks are also unique.

Just try going from character to character and getting a sense of how characters' moves fit together. Some have more holes than others but there's a greater sense of completeness throughout the cast. For example, I've recently been practicing with Falco, who's viewed as somewhere from mid to low tier due to being slow and kind of awkward, but when you actually look at his moveset there's actually a method to the madness. His laser is bad but it gives him a long range weapon that allows him to cover retreats, his ranged reflector that lets him deal with mid range reasonably, and then a strong close-range boxing game. He can't approach well, but he also can encourage opponents to approach, and even if his general strategy isn't the best it's at least a strategy you can aim towards.

What's probably most important however is that patches exist so even if the game isn't balanced now it can potentially move in that direction and that gives people hope.

 

[Shaya]

While designs/abilities are relatively similar or within understandable bounds, some characters just have ludicrous numbers associated with them. Although in a lot of situations it may be 50/50 in terms of options, the rewards associated with some characters who are disgustingly overloaded (Falcon, Luigi, prepatch Diddy) turn 50/50s interactions into realistically 2-3x the reward or more; you just got put in the air and likely taking 40%+ maybe even dying, while majority of low tiered characters may get their bread and butter 20% from throws or less.

In Brawl, reward differences were really obvious with chain grabs. It's taking longer for us to understand them in this game as it isn't so plain (heck Diddy up throw upair guaranteed the entire game but took 2-3 months to get out there... lol), but once it is out there it's feasible they will result in static interactions much like chain grabs did. Where the meta develops from there will either be devolving into degeneracy or overcoming it through smart game play / the use of only "viable" characters.

Falcon and Luigi in my opinion **** on most of the cast significantly more than what Diddy/Sheik/Sonic do right now. Those three (and others) are likely more viable but that doesn't change the polarizing direction things will go in because of such poorly balanced game breakers that exist.

---

Dark Pit does have a niche. His arrows doing more damage/applying more hit stun give him stronger traps when he hits. Like a point blank arrow on someone gives Pittoo a grab, while Pit gets punished for it. Ftilt being weaker means that the use of the move as a poke/frame trap starter is longer lasting. Ultimately I think the two even out pretty well... people need to vertical arrow more...

 

[Smog Frog]

how could you realistically balance the heavily overloaded reward that and possess? i guess the first step for would be to add some endlag to the fireballs or make them travel faster so he cant frame trap for grabs