Character Competitive Impressions

[TheReflexWonder]

Making their Dash Grabs less stupid is the most sound choice, I think. Less range and/or significantly more endlag (like, 10 frames of extra endlag, even). This would allow them to still manage their current playstyle (guaranteed damage being a huge part of it) while having to work harder to get it and getting punished harder for choosing incorrectly.

 

[Browny]

Heres a tier list of under-rated characters according to smashboards and reddit

top tier:
low tier: no one

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Heres a tier list of under-rated characters according to smashboards and reddit

top tier:
low tier: no one

Eventhubs version:
God tier:
Top Tier:
Bottom Tier:
Trash Tier:

 

[Shaya]

It's obvious what has 'helped' without killing viability, damage reductions (Diddy-esque), maybe slight KB reductions on abusive kill moves (like Sonic's back throw).

I still maintain that Falcon could lose 1-2% off every move and still be a top 10 character. His damage per hit is at the level of heavies (while being heavy himself) without the drawbacks of poor mobility or less combo ability (and in contrast to other speedy characters, his weight, hitbox sizes and mid-teen % moves when his compatriots live off of 8% hits or less). His class and related specs just continue to draw complete blanks from me in understanding whenever I think about it.

Luigi is a hard one... he could get lucario'd with one small nerf. Lag added onto dash grab would be pretty good actually.

 

[TriTails]

Please. PLEASE y'all are telling me Luigi doesn't need nerfs.

All you need to do against Fireball -> Dash grab is to take the fireball -> Jab/F-tilt/F-SMASH(!)/Things you probably have.

And also, dash grab is risky.

 

[Macedonian]

luigis grab is not a problem i think, especially considering that he dosnt have the threat of a strong dash attack while sprinting like falcon does. i would change luigi a little bit though, and reduce the knockback on the downB, i really dont like how he has that good of a vertical kill confirm that kills just about as early as fox's upsmash

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Please. PLEASE y'all are telling me Luigi doesn't need nerfs.

All you need to do against Fireball -> Dash grab is to take the fireball -> Jab/F-tilt/F-SMASH(!)/Things you probably have.

And also, dash grab is risky.

Deliberately taking damage is pretty unintuitive as a counterplay tactic, you have to admit.

 

[TriTails]

luigis grab is not a problem i think, especially considering that he dosnt have the threat of a strong dash attack while sprinting like falcon does. i would change luigi a little bit though, and reduce the knockback on the downB, i really dont like how he has that good of a vertical kill confirm that kills just about as early as fox's upsmash

It kills at like 130%-140% when DI'd. What are you talking about.

Deliberately taking damage is pretty unintuitive as a counterplay tactic, you have to admit.

Take 5% and potentially put him in disadvantaged position while dealing 7% or more depending on your character

or

Shield the hit, get grabbed, and take like 20-40%

Pick one.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Deliberately taking damage is pretty unintuitive as a counterplay tactic, you have to admit.

It's more of a "would you rather take 6% and be able to punish luigi or avoid the 6% and take 60% off of a grab combo after luigi eats your soul" type deals.
Regardless, deliberately taking damage is actually pretty effective since you can easily get some damage off yourself.

 

[TriTails]

But in all honesty. Luigis now prefer to SH D-air or F-air after they throw a Fireball. They can also keep spamming Fireballs in place if you have no projectile strong enough to combat Fireballs/Mobility gud enough to punish the end lag to force you to approach.

Just a reminder: If you are still losing to Fireball -> Dash grab, git gud as it is in NO way guaranteed.

 

[Lavani]

Luigi would survive if his grabs took end lag nerfs. At worst he'd have post-1.0.4 Rosalina grabs if you stuck +7~8 frames onto the end of each of them, and Rosa's grabs feel quite worth their risk:reward even with lesser reward off them and no fireball frametraps to set it up.

If the counterplay to Luigi fireball>dashgrab is really "Let them hit you and hope he blindly rushes in to have a chance at hitting him instead" I'm not really sure how one can argue that's balanced. That said I'm pretty sure it isn't that black and white (especially since the 1.0.6 fireball nerf knocked off 2 frames of shieldstun with the late hit), but the point stands that Luigi's grabs are pretty safe for the reward he gets off them.

 

[Macedonian]

triitails did you watch the the DVDA X today or the Get on my level, at DVDA Mr con con boddied Fow at 109% and right around that percent every time. then poke just did it to blacktwins mario who is not light by any means. i just saw today people dieing way earlier then 130 to 140.

 

[Radical Larry]

Link's aerials are slower and all of his ground attacks have more endlag and startlag, and I wouldnt say his aerial game is better since he's got such poor aerial mobility compared to Tink.

Also, Fire arrows are easily one of the best customs in the game.

However, he's got better range with his attacks and outputs much higher damage. From personal experience, Tink's Neutral Aerial isn't as good as Link's, but his B-Air is better than Link's. But in terms of edge-guarding, Link is superior since he can use any and all of his aerials to edge-guard, while Toon Link's best options are his B-Air, F-Air and N-Air. And even then, the opponent might get an attack on Tink first. Remember, Tink's mobility in the air isn't all that great compared to his jumping height.

How are Fire Arrows one of the best customs in the game, by the way? I'm curious to know, because all I see are short-ranged, low damage producing projectiles.

 

[thehard]

Can we talk about ROB? This is an actual weirdo anti-meta character on the up and coming. He's gotten a bunch of results lately and Holy just took GOML with him (against Poke's Luigi). It looks like has all the tools (projectiles) to keep Luigi out and mess up his recovery if played well. Kind of like his post-patch MU with Diddy really.

 

[TriTails]

triitails did you watch the the DVDA X today or the Get on my level, at DVDA Mr con con boddied Fow at 109% and right around that percent every time. then poke just did it to blacktwins mario who is not light by any means. i just saw today people dieing way earlier then 130 to 140.

Excuse me for forgetting 3DS has higher ceilings . And rage exist.

Or my memory is bad... because I usually kill people at 130% everytime with HooHahNado. Guess they can be killed earlier with that.

Though, getting the rise without people falling out is tough. And oftentimes you have to stop mashing or they'll fall out, and leads to later kills.

 

[Pyr]

If Luigi were to get a nerf, it'd be more base kb on down throw. Allows combos out of it, but doesn't allow early % regrabs on anyone without Jigs-esc attributes.

Got a question, though: Is Luigi really that huge an issue in the current metagame where he loses to random mid/lows ( and , , exist to keep him in check) that the nerf-bat is necessary? He gets a lot when he gets in, but how is he getting in? Why are you just standing on the ground when he throws a fireball? Fair is only about a Luigi and a half far in range, and he doesn't exactly have the mobility to reach you if you just jump over it or have a fast jab. And, if he's close enough to fireball before you can jump, he's also close enough to not be able to get out of the end lag from fireball to follow up.

Another question: Why are people not DI'ing the throw properly past the low %s? DI so you go above him. He has to commit to backwards momentum to hit you in front of him, or take a few frames to RAR something to have a chance to follow up. At High percents that DI gets you killed, but at mid percents (after 1 grab, or 40ish%), you save yourself a lot of trouble and % because, if he doesn't RAR you, his followup is *first hit* > Bair or UAir's late hit (which isn't true). Bair sends you far enough away to reset to neutral and UAir isn't a true thing. Or he can DAir, which will give you enough time to react + Tech OR hit Luigi on the bounce because it's not safe on the strong hit.

He gets a lot from getting in, but, unlike Falcon, it isn't exactly easy to do against many of the better characters of the game. His Traction makes so much more safe on shield against him. His air mobility makes following up difficult in quite a few situations. What's he going to do against a patient player that doesn't care about his fireballs? Max range you can jab on shield and break any chance for a grab. You can jump and he can't do anything about it other then go for a Fair. If it's 3/4 to 1/2 range for the fireball, most relevant characters can jump and punish him for it.

Maybe I'm talking out my ass or something, but I feel that his flaws (getting in, poor mobility, limited options at certain ranges and/or with DI, poor overall range) justify his strengths (stronger then average kill power, kill setups, very strong advantage game). It would be extremely arrogant for me to say that people don't know the matchup, because I know a lot of people here know their ****. I will say, however, that any character can sound godly when their biggest strengths are talked about and nothing else.

 

[Shaya]

ROB's good, we know it. He has a very good keep out game, and with a character like Luigi suffering from strong hits on shield due to traction and also ROB's better range on normals is pretty daunting for Luigi.

He's the just sub-high tier or bottom of high tier character that really stands out among the rest who have similar claims () in terms of results. Widely used all over the shop with great results in many regions. Nothing seemingly overbearing from him though. He could very well be that niche character we saw in Olimar now that Diddy has died down in prominence (and his poor match up with Sheik starts to be focused on), on that point I wonder if Oli is also in that high-tierish awkward area or are his strong match ups with some high/top tiers still very relevant?

Also
"take fireball", throw out move (marth's frame 5 jab still gets dash grabbed from my experience)
Luigi shields it because he isn't at a frame disadvantage on hit from it, gets a grab anyway.

And eh. Defending a character on the basis they aren't overbearing in every match up is... awkward. What/who does them invalidating most of the cast benefit? From a historical point, only other high/top tiers who hope some of their weaknesses are invalidated by them. Like you wouldn't worry about Falco at [Brawl] major tournaments much because you're sure that an ice climber or pikachu is going to get in therir way (EC/Apex seeding will always guarantee it)... Snake didn't have an overly easy time against Luigi but how's Luigi ever taking matches off of popular characters like Marth, Falco or MK to even be worth having that character as your main/pocket for dealing with Snake?
The super obvious one is invalidating 3/4ths of the cast, some of those characters may have had good match ups with high tiers, but who cares? I know I didn't.

etc

 

[Antonykun]

hmm on the subject of nerfs do you guys have a character who is completely fair or is this just "wow this top tier is good, lets nerf him"

 

[TriTails]

"take fireball", throw out move (marth's frame 5 jab still gets dash grabbed from my experience)
Luigi shields it because he isn't at a frame disadvantage on hit from it, gets a grab anyway./quote]
I have got DK F-tilt'd/Bowser F-tilt'd/Yoshi Jab'd and to a DA. And I'm pretty dang sure DK and Bowser F-tilt is slower than Marth's jab.

Maybe it's just me who is dumb, but I can't count on my fingers on how many times Fireball -> Dash grab fails me. That counterplay is dedicated assuming Luigi is auto-piloting to dash grab, because that's what people complains the most.

 

[Macedonian]

cant there always be improvements to balance if there are top tiers in a game? i mean the existance of tiers denotes differences in ability so thats not fair.

that being said im in the mindset of more buffs not nerfs, but i do think you need to help both ends of the spectrum to get the best balance

 

[Shaya]

Diddy seems pretty fair to me. He has a long list of options but they all have degrees of counter play or reasonable reward associated with them. Longer periods of time for him to kill leave more opportunities for his weaknesses to be exploited.
Every other high/top tier, I'm not entirely certain. I would think Fox without jab locks would still be a combo/speed demon with horrendous disadvantageous state + being featherweight. Sonic can't camp for back throw kills as he once could and his lack of priority gives him a lot of struggles (but I'm not sure how most of the cast handles his stuff still?). Ness bthrow is too much of a crutch for him which is annoying.
Mario's specs given to anyone would make them high tier+ so I guess you can feel it's unfair/be salty over it (I know I kinda am; give that **** to Falco please, it would instantly make the game 50x better), although he doesn't really seem to be abusing the cast much from what we see, even if he is feasibly top 10.
Sheik has abuse in needles and fair. And without 1 of those being as strong a lot of people think she'd be a lot worse. For a feasibly best character in the game title, I'm not too perturbed by her existence.
Rosalina loses Luma much easier now and it's obviously very difficult to manage her against smart players. That plus her size and weight are exploitable.

Anyway, it's a lot easier to bundle all complaints with 'top tier is good lets nerf them', but there tend to be common themes of complaints (loudness winning over diversified thought) from active players.
Become one of us so you can dislike Melee Shine Ice Climbers Falcon and customs too!

The high/top tiers will always be complained about. But I wouldn't personally be looking at further touches on Diddy, Sonic or Rosalina right now, which seeing as they're likely all top 5 [still] is pretty positive outlook for the game's balance. Sheik is in a very very awkward spot. Pikachu may be a secret demon we're yet to fully understand. Fox is feasibly just an oversight fix away. Luigi (and less so Falcon) are a deluge of salty tears inducing characters for really good reasons. A readjustment of power in Ness would be beneficial (take away from back throw, add to other things).
ZSS Flip Jump is the most option rich move in the game with a lot of depth, it probably needs to be nerfed because its rewards are bonkers and eventually we're going to make the counterplay to it mute. Otherwise, 16 frame grab, please understand.

 

[Antonykun]

cant there always be improvements to balance if there are top tiers in a game? i mean the existance of tiers denotes differences in ability so thats not fair.

that being said im in the mindset of more buffs not nerfs, but i do think you need to help both ends of the spectrum to get the best balance

what I mean is what is fair? or maybe who is fair? If that character ended up being top tier by default does that mean that said character is broken and we should just ask for nerfs? I'd hate to sound like a slippery slope but it really does worry me. Characters who were once ok like Luigi are now in the chopping block for nerfs.
I think I'm rambling at this point :/

 

[thehard]

Was gonna say I think Diddy is really well balanced as far as top tiers go

My how things change

 

[Antonykun]

would you guys agree that diddy is both an amazing character that is fair while also having an interesting and unique mechanic (in the form of banana)

 

[Macedonian]

you definitely make a point about the slippery slope, but the thing is why should we ever stop striving for a better game when the game is actively patched.

its tough to think of what is fair, i think fox, mario, pika, are extremely fair atm, diddy is pretty fair with his kill setups with banana because its telegraphed and the nana can be used against diddy. i guess whats fair is having proportional risks and rewards across the cast.

a fast character like luigi with grab setups that kill at early kill percents seems pretty low risk for such a high reward compared to fox who has to make a massive commitment on the upsmash. or even a bouncing shiek bouncing fish. ( yea safe on shield but its still risky to do in neutral and a missed BF is a lot more punishable then a missed grab). and all this said i only want it to kill like 1o to 20 percents later, it just seems like such an easy kill setup to happen so early.

edit, i guess im just a little salty that watching a lot of smash today and seeing so many good matches end with the same exact kill setup that is not at all exciting to watch. watching blacktwins loose was heartbreaking if you saw the sets, he played out of his mind with spikes and cape kills.

 

[Shaya]

what I mean is what is fair? or maybe who is fair? If that character ended up being top tier by default does that mean that said character is broken and we should just ask for nerfs? I'd hate to sound like a slippery slope but it really does worry me. Characters who were once ok like Luigi are now in the chopping block for nerfs.
I think I'm rambling at this point :/

People thought Luigi was silly before (for the same reasons we do now), but he is now taking more focus as we see him in almost every grand final for streamed/large tournaments in the past month and is widely taken as a pocket/secondary for a lot of high/top level players. It's obvious his skill floor is way too low to just about everyone (Boss maining Mario Bros for over a decade and is losing the ditto convincingly... it's kinda depressing).
Most people seem to agree he needs the guaranteed grab follow ups and kill set ups, but the whole hoo-hah stuff is a negative stigma in the game that no one likes to see, especially if it's a majority of their game play.

would you guys agree that diddy is both an amazing character that is fair while also having an interesting and unique mechanic (in the form of banana)

Diddy has a lot of strength in his bananas, but he still has to pluck the item (laggy) and it can be used against him. He has a really good grab game, but has to look for other ways to clinch stocks. His range and frame data is towards the best but he isn't dealing 14% per hit and killing around 100% with them... like some.

 

[Ikes]

However, he's got better range with his attacks and outputs much higher damage. From personal experience, Tink's Neutral Aerial isn't as good as Link's, but his B-Air is better than Link's. But in terms of edge-guarding, Link is superior since he can use any and all of his aerials to edge-guard, while Toon Link's best options are his B-Air, F-Air and N-Air. And even then, the opponent might get an attack on Tink first. Remember, Tink's mobility in the air isn't all that great compared to his jumping height.

How are Fire Arrows one of the best customs in the game, by the way? I'm curious to know, because all I see are short-ranged, low damage producing projectiles.

they linger on the ground for a significantly long time, and anyone who runs into them is popped into the air proportional to their % and put in hitstun, meaning if anyone walks into a fire arrow on stage, it's a free aerial for tink, potentially leading to a fair kill at higher %

and they can be spammed all over, acting as short term trip saplings that put them in a position where they can be very easily SH fair or bair-ed, of Fast Fall uair-ed if timed correctly

also can be used to set up bomb combos if you want that extra % and knockback

 

[SpottedCerberus]

(Boss maining Mario Bros for over a decade and is losing the ditto convincingly... it's kinda depressing).

That has nothing to do with the skill floor. Mirror matches are weird, and apparently Boss's weakness. They aren't a good gauge of skill. It's not like he's been surpassed. As far as I can tell, he's still the best Luigi. He's reached a level of skill with the character that no one else has.

Luigi has some very bad match-ups, (Mega Man, R.O.B., Pac-Man, Sheik, Villager, etc.) and a lot of difficulty approaching. His recovery is entirely dependent on his second jump, unless you can button mash faster than seems humanly possible, and his not that difficult to edge-guard. Boss makes Luigi's recovery look amazing, but it's actually pretty bad.

He has difficulty punishing; basically everything is safe on shield. And to make matters worse, he's not very safe. A lot of his moves are easily punished.

I think people are getting carried away with all the nerfs. I'd rather see more buffs to weaker or underused characters next patch, instead of just tearing down whatever character seems like the biggest threat and refusing to adapt. Buffing characters like Zelda, Samus, and Robin should take precedence over nerfing Luigi, if we are going to have another balance patch, which we don't really need anyway.

 

[Shaya]

If a character has a majority of their capabilities achievable within a certain threshold then the ability to compete and come out on top against someone at a higher mastery is pretty feasible.

In other words, a ditto isn't 50:50 "best player wins", it's actually closer to a coin flip. But you're right that this point isn't conclusively backing up my statement.
However, the 500 Luigi player's you've never heard of or are known for maining someone else with results recently? It's saying something, I'm just not sure what's fair to conclude from this.

 

[Ikes]

what I mean is what is fair? or maybe who is fair? If that character ended up being top tier by default does that mean that said character is broken and we should just ask for nerfs? I'd hate to sound like a slippery slope but it really does worry me. Characters who were once ok like Luigi are now in the chopping block for nerfs.
I think I'm rambling at this point :/

I think just about anyone that can perform well with enough work put into playing is a fair character. you can have low tier characters that are unfair due to certain explotable moves (Kong Cyclone comes to mind), not that the character is OP, but rather they have a single move tha tcompletely contrasts the level of skill the rest of their moveset already has set.

I have always been of the opinion that balancing theory is entirely about every single move in a character's arsenal should require effort proportional to the reward it yields and the risk it puts the player at if missed. a high reward move should have HUGE amounts of risk if missed and should be easier to miss, putting it at a middle risk high reward move with lots of punishability if used improperly.

Take Wario for example, he has no polarizing or glaring strong or weak moves even though his strong points are obvious. He's a character that requires a fair amount of work for very fair rewards and he end up being considered a good character, but there's no reason to complain about wario since his moveset and attacks have very clear and fair risks and downsides. a whiffed chomp puts you at risk for a strong punish, you can be hit with many aerials for being careless with the bike, your bair, while a kill move, can be punished fairly easily if whiffed due to higher ending lag (which is good since it's a reliable killing move, so clearly it should have a good amount of endlag)

However, there are characters on the other side of the coin, who have absurdly good movesets and low risk moves at the cost of very little.

Would like to make a disclaimer that I'm not entirely knowledgeable on this part of the discussion since i havent researched many high tiers to much depth and what really makes them good, so correct me on anything im wrong about please.

Luigi seems like a character who has a lot of power and speed behind all his attacks at the cost of very little end/landing lag or punishability, his smashes kill at the earlier kill percents and are very fast, his aerial mobility is not bad albeit not incredible, his fireballs have low endlag and are an extremely safe spacing and zoning tool as well as an attack that allows him to follow up into grab combos, his grab combos are easy to initiate due to a fairly safe and quick grab, and can deal very quick percents in large volumes. He's not OP, but he defies most guidelines of balance in that he has such a strong arsenal with very few drawbacks.

 

[Ffamran]

Regarding dittos, they are made worse if they actually have RNG involved like Villager, Mr. Game & Watch, and Peach.

When Seagull Joe Kong Cycloned Average Joe to death, he did prove that yes, Kong Cyclone is easy to use, but at the same time, Seagull has much more knowledge of fighting (Average Joe's) DK than Average Joe. Same with how Dabuz understood the Olimar ditto more than Greenbeast and was able to counterpick for a ditto match instead of going Rosalina again.

 

[SpottedCerberus]

But the 500 Luigi player's you've never heard of or are known for maining someone else with results recently? It's saying something, I'm just not sure what's fair to conclude from this.

Yeah, I get you. You've got a point. But people just haven't adapted to him yet, because he was pretty uncommon early in the meta-game. If you give it time, his perceived dominance will fade pretty quickly. I mean, ROB, Mega Man, and Pac-Man are all very bad match-ups for him, and they're all on the rise. And Sheik is everywhere already; she beats him convincingly and we haven't even seen everything her character can do yet. Luigi's not as viable as he seems, and this will become more and more clear as time passes.

 

[Kofu]

@ Shaya I'm a little intrigued that you consider Flip Jump that powerful since a few months ago I made a post about how powerful it was and your response was basically "Bouncing Fish is better." Both moves are indubitably very strong, but as I recall my point about Flip Jump was basically how flexible it was (which is what you're echoing now). Anything that made you change your mind in particular?

One more question about ZSS's design for you: do you feel she needs that frame 1 jab? It's not an amazing jab by any means but I feel that having a frame 1 jab to balance shield pressure (my understanding on why she has it, I could be wrong as I don't play ZSS) is a little strange, even with her laggy grab. I mean, the only other character with a frame 1 jab is Little Mac, which at least makes sense conceptually for him as a ground specialist. Would a frame 2 or 3 jab really hurt her game that much? (Not sure how usage would overlap with UTilt if they were both frame 3 though)

 

[Big O]

My only complaint about Luigi is that if at any point in the match I clank with a Fireball, I'm eating a dash grab into a silly 20+% (and possibly death) combo. The pressure this puts on you to not throw pokes as a footsies based character without a projectile or reflector of your own is silly. Not throwing out pokes as said characters also let's him get in for free too...

 

[Shaya]

@ Kofu
Essentially I started to realise how to combo into it (i.e. from every move she has) and also trap with it. While labbing movement and other things quite a lot. This put it on a similar level as bouncing fish essentially while having auto cancelled landings with no attacks to diversify it further; it's ludicrous kill power on top of this... sheesh.
How punishable it is holds it back, the auto footstool thing is awful and ironically would make the move significantly stronger if it wasn't there. But we're getting better at using it when it can't be punished or using it in ways that are very difficult to punish. The amount of "skill" required to deal with it used sensibly is very daunting for most of the cast; characters who had it easy-ish (Diddy/Sheik) don't have the same punishments as they once did either.

Frame 1 jab is pretty helpful for her out of shield game, 8 frames directly in front of her evening out her lack of a regular grab. I really enjoy ZSS for her out of shield/punishment options and I tend to play characters who focus on punishing.
Jab is one of those moves that you can trap people with on shield (like rolling in on them), and it being slower would make this dynamic even harder. However, she probably looks at dealing with shields from further away these days.

Her jab isn't the same as Mac's. It doesn't hit low, it will whiff a lot of characters attacking her shield, does around half the damage and doesn't allow real follow ups (like other jabs). It's a bit of adhesive to her kit I feel she kinda needs even if she doesn't overly rely on it, the opponent needing to respect it is vital for her dealing with shield drops and her lack of a 'real grab'; up tilt has quite a bit of end lag on it, it would really hurt if holding shield (when it's already really good for her) became even stronger.

 

[Nysyr]

They did a pretty bad job balancing frame data as a whole across the cast tbh. Some characters like Luigi Sheik and Mario won the frame data lottery while others like charizard have inexplicably bad frame data.

 

[Shaya]

Well their (and others) frame data is essentially the same as before, maybe with less ending lag in some cases.
Luck and/or viability has primarily come down to grab games and walling/approach forcing ability.

If you can win from your grab game, you're top tier.
If you can win from forcing the approach, you're top tier.
If you have both and are amazing at them, you're probably Brawl Ice Climbers or prepatch Diddy.

 

[Kofu]

So basically Flip Jump is just as powerful as Bouncing Fish but it's trickier to use right? I could see that. I still don't like her frame 1 jab (wasn't necessarily equating it to Mac's, I think Mac's is better, just the speed) but if you say it's adhesive for her kit I'll take your word on it.

They did a pretty bad job balancing frame data as a whole across the cast tbh. Some characters like Luigi Sheik and Mario won the frame data lottery while others like charizard have inexplicably bad frame data.

Frame data is a hard thing to quantify- usually. Some characters have good startup but horrible endlag while others take a while to get going but have little lag after the attack. Sometimes I'd love to take Charizards's frame 6 USmash with its huge vertical coverage over Game & Watch's frame 24 USmash, though the latter gives his head invincibility from frame 4 to frame 25 and has almost no endlag, which ends up making it one of his best attacks.

That said, Sheik, Mario, and Luigi are really good on both ends.

 

[Ffamran]

They did a pretty bad job balancing frame data as a whole across the cast tbh. Some characters like Luigi Sheik and Mario won the frame data lottery while others like charizard have inexplicably bad frame data.

Most of the frame data is similar if not the same from previous games. With established designs, it's an easy way to program everyone, but the main issue is not taking into account why, how, and the consequences of having certain frame data.

Major example is Fox's Blaster. It auto-cancels which is fine and since Falco was a Fox clone... Falco had more end lag with his Blaster, but it auto-cancels in Melee and Brawl which if Melee wasn't enough to prove how broken it was, then Brawl definitely did when it had increased range and rate of fire. Removing its auto-cancel does not balance the projectile, but it does "fix" it.

Diddy's Uair has the same hit frame from Brawl, but because of differing mechanics, perhaps different hitboxes, and maybe the community back then, it wasn't infamous in Brawl. Lowering its damage doesn't stop it from being spammable and a powerful tool, but it does "fix" the whole kills too early issue. If his Uair was frame 6 instead of 3 like most sex kicks, it might not have been as infamous. Changing hitboxes and not allowing his Uair to scoop and hit below him would also be ways to balance it.

Edit: Smash 4 Falco's grab. In Melee it was frame 7, but in Brawl it was frame 6. Brawl also has chaingrabs that was exploitable by Brawl Falco; Smash 4 doesn't. Smash 4 Falco has a frame 8 grab now. Why? Chaingrab is probably the reason, but it wasn't his fault, but the game's. This doesn't look at the consequence of allowing Falco's grab to be beat by heavyweights like Ganondorf who has a frame 7 grab and characters who have notorious grab combos like Ness who has a frame 6 grab nor does it account for Falco being slow while dashing which makes having the same dash and pivot grabs as Fox not good. Ganondorf's dash and pivot grabs are the same as Captain Falcon's if I remember correctly.

 

[Radical Larry]

they linger on the ground for a significantly long time, and anyone who runs into them is popped into the air proportional to their % and put in hitstun, meaning if anyone walks into a fire arrow on stage, it's a free aerial for tink, potentially leading to a fair kill at higher %

and they can be spammed all over, acting as short term trip saplings that put them in a position where they can be very easily SH fair or bair-ed, of Fast Fall uair-ed if timed correctly

also can be used to set up bomb combos if you want that extra % and knockback

But it has negligible range and charging capabilities, and can be taken out by attacks and projectiles. Plus, it stays for an extremely short time. It's not good for projectile aerial game due to its poor range, and it's bad for Toon Link's projectile game against the other characters with projectiles.

I think Link's Quickfire Bow is significantly better than it due to better range, speed, charge time and overall damage output (damage + time), and that Toon Link's default Neutral is the superior Neutral since it covers more range and gives him more options to control the air and ground.

I seriously am going to say that Toon Link's default moveset is his best moveset aside from his default moveset + Short-Fuse Bomb. There's nothing wrong with the default and it's a huge benefit for him since we have great setups with him already. Short-Fuse Bomb is probably his only custom that is really beneficial to him with its high damage, knockback and ability to help him recover better.