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Character Competitive Impressions

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warriorman222

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Tell that to all the existing and future 1111 tier lists. Supposedly he's fine without HK or PP at all!
Tier lists don't simply say how good they are(or they shouldn't). It tells you their ranking based on character ability, strategy, success in tournaments, and against other characters in tournaments. Well, theoretically it should, but most personal tier lists don't do that.

For the longest time regardless of what meta it is, a "proper" (Not good, but properly made. If you know what I mean.) tier list will have to inflate Mii brawler's ranking due to his success, even in the case of a default tier list, until either a bad MU chart for him is made, or his success goes down. Or when people get used being safer near the ledge(customs), or exploit his many weaknesses(no customs).

Anyways, without PP or HK, he has few kill moves. Okay, well there's this 1-frame long fsmash with 1337 frames of endlag, a weaker Fox usmash that kill around 120-150%, dsmash that barely ever hits and kills late, f-throw and bair under rage/heavy rage, dair spike and Ultimate uppercut, which requires charging.

Based on my subjective reasoning that kill moves should be reliable, UU is the only contender.

And no, fastest air speed and best jumps aren't going to fix the fact that without Ultimate Uppercut and HK, you have no reliable kill moves. None. 1111 Brawler kinda sucks, and I bet I'm not the only one who thinks so. And it only gets worse if he's Default height and weight. Because at that point, he has no advantages.
 
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|RK|

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Y'know maybe we should get people to start crying for the worse characters to get buffed instead of trying to nerf every single top tier character that pops up.

The only thing I feel really needs to be fixed is Fox's jab because that is just silly.

As it stands right now I feel like the meta is good enough as it is at least as far as the better part of the cast is concerned, the only thing that needs to be done now is to buff the lower tier characters like Zelda and Samus so that they have a better shot at competi
- Fox is fine
- Oh no, was he taken by Candleja
 

Antonykun

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Well their (and others) frame data is essentially the same as before, maybe with less ending lag in some cases.
Luck and/or viability has primarily come down to grab games and walling/approach forcing ability.

If you can win from your grab game, you're top tier.
If you can win from forcing the approach, you're top tier.
If you have both and are amazing at them, you're probably Brawl Ice Climbers or prepatch Diddy.
Swordfighter gets nasty things of a grab game that he can set up with jab locks and d tilts
Swordfighter can use SoL to force approaches which means that they are running into Swordfighters grab and grab set ups

what are you implying?
 

Fatmanonice

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Y'know maybe we should get people to start crying for the worse characters to get buffed instead of trying to nerf every single top tier character that pops up.

As it stands right now I feel like the meta is good enough as it is at least as far as the better part of the cast is concerned, the only thing that needs to be done now is to buff the lower tier characters like Zelda and Samus so that they have a better shot at competi
I agree, especially with the last part. Thanks to customs and patches, there's not a whole lot of characters who people have completely dismissed yet but that doesn't change the fact that several are almost unanimously in that position. I agree that :4zelda: and :4samus: along with :4myfriends:are pretty much the poster children of this. Other seemingly "bad" or just underwhelming characters, however, have enough support that they will go to low tier kicking and screaming if they have to.:4dk: :4bowser::4charizard::4drmario::4ganondorf::4lucina::4marth::4palutena::4wiifit: have customs that are definitely game changers and I've seen work put in by single players that have changed people's minds about standard :4bowserjr::4dedede::4falco::4gaw::4jigglypuff::4littlemac:and their overall potential. :4metaknight::4robinm: are two characters that seem to be in limbo because people can't really decide if they're good or bad because hardly anyone plays as them and the characters show potential for some interesting techs but they really haven't developed yet. Still, it hasn't been a year yet and we could very well be seeing yet another patch in a few weeks time when Lucas is launched so any of this could easily change at a moment's notice.
 

warriorman222

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Swordfighter gets nasty things of a grab game that he can set up with jab locks and d tilts
Swordfighter can use SoL to force approaches which means that they are running into Swordfighters grab and grab set ups

what are you implying?
She's cleeaaarly implying that Zelderly Mii Butterknife >Brawl Meta Knight.
 
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bc1910

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A lot of people dismissed him for his risky offstage game and for having one of the worst recovery moves in the game. A lot of people argued that the random Pikmin were unreliable and that organizing them to be strategically effective was way too much work than what it was worth, basically being way too much to learn and too much to keep track of. Like Yoshi, PT, and Sonic, he was initially seen as a special snowflake character due to his learning curve and seemingly insurmountable flaws but that got chipped away at bit by bit.
Damn, it's funny, but reading what you just said here along with what I said about range, frame data etc puts me in mind of one character: Little Mac. He could definitely get a lot better in time, as his players learn to make do with his recovery and make the most of his bat**** crazy ground game. Mac's weaknesses are more crippling than Brawlimar's (not just recovery, the man has no air game) but he has some extremely polarizing strengths, ones that I can see being very valuable in the future.

Of course we're just as likely to see everyone else realise that almost none of Mac's moves are safe on block and get around him because not only can he not recover, he cannot button his way through neutral. I think time is the only thing that will make Mac's situation clearer.

Zelda needs a speed buff. Every time I play her she feels powerful enough but really, really slow for no reason. It's weird.

Samus, as far as people from her boards have stated, seems fine as-is?
I wish Zelda had a better grab and dash grab (frame 10 and 11 respectively iirc, like why?) and more hitstun on her Dthrow, so that people could actually be lightning kicked when they DI away. There are a bunch of other buffs I'd give her including speed buffs.

Samus IMO needs more time to develop but I would like to see her close range become a little better. Perhaps make her jab link properly and give her back her old Nair. And perhaps make her grab suck a bit less so that she doesn't lose to shield so hard at close range, considering she pretty much loses to shield at every range right now.
 

Macedonian

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We see more people cal boring for balance changes of top tiers because they get much more exposure, there is very little samus and falco play so it's harder for people to pinpoint what they need. Buffs are also much harder and risked for the drg team compared to just lowering the percent Knockback on a few menacing moves
 

DungeonMaster

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It's not hard for the Samus players to pinpoint what we need. :p
We universally agree the grab is terrible. Shield grabbing is such a basic mechanic, without it life is miserable. It doesn't matter that we can do 70+% damage out just two grabs in true combos.
She's been designed to be super-highly technical but most players are going to say "why bother?" when dead simple does nearly as much with easy-bake combos and up-tilts.
Sure, the easy bake are not all guaranteed, and maybe 3+ years from now good players will avoid all the not-quite-guaranteed combos and the only thing that will stand out will be Samus' crazy true combos. Maybe. Doubtful, but maybe.
Really without the basic, basic, reliable mechanic of shield grab all the other problems are quite trivial. Regular missiles are garbage, end lag on a bunch of moves is a bit extreme, priority is terrible, skin tight hit and hurt boxes, but really, just give us the goddamn shield grab.
The design team basically decided to a have a combo specialist super-heavyweight, that would be Samus in smash4, then tried to balance that with some of the most crippling basic disadvantages they could muster.
From the look of things though, judging from last patch, they're going to stick to their guns and keep things as is. We keep fighting the good fight and maximizing what we've got.
 
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Unknownkid

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I have a simple question about Captain Falcon. How "dumb" (for lack of a better word) is his Uair?

I got into an argument with someone who compared Sheik's Fair to Falcon's Uair. I barely seen any Falcon toss that move in Neutral compared to Sheik's Fair. I know it does 12% and can link to the Knee but is there more to it?
I have seen more Falcon payers use Dash Grab, Nair, and Bair in neutral but Uair? How safe is it on Shield? But I don't follow the Falcon scene.
 

Ffamran

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I have a simple question about Captain Falcon. How "dumb" (for lack of a better word) is his Uair?

I got into an argument with someone who compared Sheik's Fair to Falcon's Uair. I barely seen any Falcon toss that move in Neutral compared to Sheik's Fair. I know it does 12% and can link to the Knee but is there more to it?
I have seen more Falcon payers use Dash Grab, Nair, and Bair in neutral but Uair? How safe is it on Shield? But I don't follow the Falcon scene.
If you want more conservative play from Fatality and how he would fight a Sheik: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AzO3ECrHsfo.

Otherwise, enjoy Fox being murdered several times: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eWE6pWG-KDI.

Captain Falcon's Uair being frame 6 stops it from being as spammy as Diddy's frame 3 Uair which incidentally, also functions as a sex kick like Diddy's Nair since it hits below him. Captain Falcon doesn't have that luxury since it's slower and he doesn't have Ganondorf's semi-spike angle which would make his Uair even stupider. The range on Captain Falcon's isn't that stupid compared to Diddy's (and his stretchy limbs) or Sheik's Fair where it's almost like Marth's for some reason. If Captain Falcon's Uair was any faster and therefore, probably Ganondorf's since they share Uair hit frames, then they wouldn't have a bad disadvantage. Could you imagine Ganondorf murdering you because he spammed Uair while in the middle of getting comboed and it snuck in or Captain Falcon having a good if not decent disadvantage combined with his amazing advantage and good neutral? Captain Falcon would be able to throw out Uair whenever he wanted and suffer no repercussions. His Uair is a strong tool, but it's not as stupid since surprisingly, its range isn't insane, it's not insanely fast, and it's not insanely strong. Ditto goes to ZSS and Ganondorf's Uair. Now if only Kirby and Falco's Uair were a bit faster...
 
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Seagull Joe

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Please. PLEASE y'all are telling me Luigi doesn't need nerfs.

All you need to do against Fireball -> Dash grab is to take the fireball -> Jab/F-tilt/F-SMASH(!)/Things you probably have.

And also, dash grab is risky.
Fireball is plus on block dude. Even if I PS it and throw out a move, Luigi can expect what I do, PS it and punish me. My experience is playing Boss weekly lmfao.

:018:
 

Lunix7

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I'm glad people are seeing the greatness that is :4rob:. I feel he isn't top tier but he is no slouch either and has plenty of tools to challenge the top tier characters. Yes he fairs poorly to rushdown characters such as sheik, captain falcon, etc. but his gyro is such a great tool for spacing, mind games and makes the opponent play into your rules. Seriously the gyro alone makes him such an amazing character.

I still feel that :4gaw: and :4falco: have amazing potential and I have been maining them for a while with good results. I feel people need to give these characters a chance and see that they are not all bad. I'll admit I first hated :4gaw: in this game but once I played him again and adapted to his new playstyle I was pleasantly surprised.
 
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thehard

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Yesterday when NAKAT was playing Poke, Nairo was in the GOML chat saying how he should have went Pikachu to fight Luigi (something about t-jolt), but I remember ESAM saying Luigi is really tough for Pika. Thoughts?

Nairo also mentioned that almost no one tries to exploit Luigi's recovery.
 
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bc1910

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I don't know the ins and outs, but Luigi is widely considered Pikachu's worst MU and possibly his only disadvantageous one.

Nairo is in the minority if he thinks Pikachu is a good choice to fight Luigi but as I said, I don't know the ins and outs, so I can't say if he's right or wrong.
 

Ffamran

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Y'know, I'm curious on who the developers think are the top if not strong characters in Smash 4. Taking into account their intended designs, development, testing and tournaments, player reaction, etc., I'd like to know. Unfortunately, we might get the whole, "We don't want to sound bias", BS. If they legitimately think, say, Samus, Kirby, Zelda, and Ganondorf are high tier, Luigi, Diddy, and Rosalina as mid tier, and Fox, Ness, Little Mac, and Peach as low tier, then there would be a serious disparity between the developers and the players. But, if their thoughts fall in line with the players... then why are certain characters left to dominate while the others fall out?
 

Djent

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I can't see :4luigi: being that bad for :4pikachu:, especially since the rat is strong at those aspects of the game which give the green machine the most trouble (projectile harassment + edgeguarding). Falling behind is probably miserable OTOH, and is not hard based on the disparate rewards-on-hit.
 

Ffamran

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they probably balance around ffas so that may or not be accurate
In the chaos of FFA, people might not care or notice Diddy's Uair killing that early and Link's "infinite" would be even more difficult to pull off if there's another player hovering around to punish. If nobody figured out Greninja's wacky Shadow Sneak techs or just kept them to themselves, potentially, Greninja would have kept them. Nintendo, especially NoA, have been keeping tabs on the entire Smash community.

If they haven't, then Brawl sheningans like chaingrabs, Falco's SHDL, and Meta Knight could have existed. It was the community that blew up Link's "infinite" as this broken, game-breaking tech while letting Fox's slide, and it was the community that complained to death about Diddy's Uair. I wouldn't be surprised if Kong Cyclone gets the same treatment with all the massive complaints likely to be increased and noted during EVO.
 

warionumbah2

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:4metaknight:characters that seem to be in limbo because people can't really decide if they're good or bad because hardly anyone plays as them
Gonna be honest, the community is moronic when it comes to comparing a characters tools against the rest of the cast. Instead people fall back on the results card which no longer works since MKs got good results(especially recently good lord). At this point of the meta, you don't need alot of players to tell if a char is good or bad.

All you need to do is find high level players that main him and MK has plenty for an (according to this thread) 'underrated' character. The number of MKs are growing but they tend to be bad(high skill floor i guess not firing shots), you get pocket/secondary MKs that are bad and the MKs in Japan aren't great at all yet abadango put him in B tier.

Like if you guys are still iffy about MK being good or bad this far into the game then yall slow af. He's not a complicated or mysterious, whats the big deal?
 

bc1910

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Y'know, I'm curious on who the developers think are the top if not strong characters in Smash 4. Taking into account their intended designs, development, testing and tournaments, player reaction, etc., I'd like to know. Unfortunately, we might get the whole, "We don't want to sound bias", BS. If they legitimately think, say, Samus, Kirby, Zelda, and Ganondorf are high tier, Luigi, Diddy, and Rosalina as mid tier, and Fox, Ness, Little Mac, and Peach as low tier, then there would be a serious disparity between the developers and the players. But, if their thoughts fall in line with the players... then why are certain characters left to dominate while the others fall out?
They clearly thought Greninja was much, MUCH stronger than he was. I wouldn't be surprised if they considered him the best character in the game before 1.0.4 and would be shocked if they considered him any worse than top 3. I suppose his strong results in Japan didn't help but he was hardly dominant... I don't think his results were any better than other top characters at the time.

He really was trashed. I just found out all of his smashes had their range nerfed in that patch, and Fair may have done as well, on top of all the other crap that happened. Honestly I think he was lucky to end up mid tier/bottom of high tier, the huge nerfs across the board could easily have landed him in low tier. You don't nerf EVERYTHING strong about a character at once, it just baffles me that they thought that was good balancing no matter how strong they considered him. Especially considering how young the game was! Eugh.

As far as SSB4 goes Greninja was nerfed the hardest but I suppose you could say the same about MK from Brawl. He was lucky not to end up total garbage considering the transition from Brawl to SSB4 was pretty tough on him. I guess Falco, Marth and Dedede weren't so lucky. They probably knew who the top characters were in Brawl going into SSB4 development but they had a lot of results and community tier lists to work with.
 
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Blobface

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Captain Falcon's Bair is only disjointed at the beginning right? The long lasting hitbox isn't disjointed? If so, I don't see a problem with it since that means it doesn't cover below him at all.

The only thing I'd nerf right now are Sheik's needles (give them falco laser stun instead of knockback and remove their transcendence). That's it. I'd certainly give plenty of buffs to the lower end of the cast, but I feel we have a very well balanced top tier right now.
 

san.

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Yesterday when NAKAT was playing Poke, Nairo was in the GOML chat saying how he should have went Pikachu to fight Luigi (something about t-jolt), but I remember ESAM saying Luigi is really tough for Pika. Thoughts?

Nairo also mentioned that almost no one tries to exploit Luigi's recovery.
Canada is one of the few places with quite a few Pikachus. Blacktwins (got 3rd or 4th that tournament I believe) seconds him and Helldew also has a decent one. I believe NAKAT also won a smaller tournament the day before and felt that he was more comfortable based on his prior experience playing him.

It's scary to edgeguard because of the 5 frame vulnerable air dodges + Luigi's quick counter attack or nado gimp. The better Luigis can use jumpless cyclone at will, too. There are still many opportunities to deliver heavy punishment, I can just see why so many people don't opt to do it often..
 

Ffamran

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They clearly thought Greninja was much, MUCH stronger than he was. I wouldn't be surprised if they considered him the best character in the game before 1.0.4 and would be shocked if they considered him any worse than top 3. I suppose his strong results in Japan didn't help but he was hardly dominant... I don't think his results were any better than other top characters at the time.
Wasn't Greninja mostly used in Japan during the release of the 3DS? Diddy wasn't used as much and how vectoring worked could have made Greninja much stronger than he seemed like how Luigi and Mario were much weaker characters because of how vectoring worked during release.

Rosalina had results since day one and yet, somehow it never seemed to be considered that maybe a character like her being able to kill at sub 100% is okay. Rosalina is not a heavyweight who killing at sub 100% is okay; she's a lightweight with a unique play style because of Luma and disjoints on pretty much her entire moveset. Rosalina is mobile in the air and on the ground, her landing lag can be nullified by Lunar Landing, and her jab kills fairly well. And despite all of this, she gets somewhat minor nerfs.

He really was trashed. I just found out all of his smashes had their range nerfed in that patch, and Fair may have done as well, on top of all the other crap that happened. Honestly I think he was lucky to end up mid tier/bottom of high tier, the huge nerfs across the board could easily have landed him in low tier. You don't nerf EVERYTHING strong about a character at once, it just baffles me that they thought that was good balancing no matter how strong they considered him. Especially considering how young the game was! Eugh.
Justifiably, Greninja wasn't intended to be that strong and more of an ambush character who plays strong mindgames and punishes well. If he was much stronger, then it might not be a bit fair when another punisher, Ganondorf, would look pathetic. Some things like Shadow Sneak's techniques being removed already was kind of a given since pretty much everyone's techs were removed - I wouldn't be surprised if Falco's slide out of Fast Fire Bird was patched out if it was more common.

What's not justifiable is Meta Knight's. People complained about Brawl Meta Knight and now that isn't broken, people are complaining about Meta Knight not being Brawl Meta Knight? Seriously? When people are iffy about whether or not Meta Knight is bad or good, it's because he's being compared to a freaking SNK Boss from Brawl. Meta Knight is at the very least, a mid tier. There is nothing about Meta Knight that should put him lower. He has shield issues, he's light, but his attack speed, his ability to juggle you to death, his advantage and disadvantage are good, and so is his neutral. This little knight has one of the best dash grabs, a good dash attack, the fastest Smashes, fastest aerials, and he can pressure you if people let him vulture around you. Mach Tornado covers ledges well along with dealing ludicrous amounts of damage if mashed well - around 30%. Shuttle Loop is an abusable kill move that makes Captain Falcon wish his Falcon Dive could have been used for Uair juggle finishers. This is a strong character held back by a broken past? He's much more of a fairer character after being toned down from Brawl, but people want a broken character? Oh, wait. They want Melee/Brawl Falco and Melee/Brawl Marth with Melee/Brawl Falco being notorious for broken stuff.

As far as SSB4 goes Greninja was nerfed the hardest but I suppose you could say the same about MK from Brawl. He was lucky not to end up total garbage considering the transition from Brawl to SSB4 was pretty tough on him. I guess Falco and Dedede weren't so lucky. They probably knew who the top characters were in Brawl going into SSB4 development but they had a lot of results and community tier lists to work with.
At the same time, as you said, at least he ended up being able to contend for mid tier or low-high/mid-high tier. Greninja still has tools to compete against everyone with what made him strong being toned down, but not butchered. I don't want to complain, since it gets me and everyone nowhere, but whatever... You want butchered? Go look at Falco. What made Falco strong was his ability to break games. Fox and Falco abused the hell out of Melee and Fox being a good character since 64 didn't help as he was even better in Melee. Brawl showed a Fox where pure design lets him stand tall and proud and if Brawl didn't have random tripping, chaingrabs, and multi-hits worked better, then Fox would have done much better... Oh wait, isn't that what Fox is doing in Smash 4?

Falco was given one of the most if not the broken projectile of SSB and then they decide to make it even more broken in Brawl. Tripping meant nothing to Falco since he could just hop about walling you out with lasers, chaingrabs might as well be his name, and multi-hits? Why use those when you have a powerful, fast meteor and the ability to rapid-fire lasers that cover the entire stage that stun and rack up a ton of damage? Man, you could have removed all of Falco's moves, but his grab, Specials, Bair, and Dair and he could potentially have been a mid-tier with only 7 moves. An exaggeration, but that was how broken this bird was in Brawl. Hell, the reason he probably even stayed up that high was his Blaster.

So, how do we "balance" Falco from Brawl? Let's remove auto-cancel from Blaster and ignore the end lag, make his grab slower than Ganondorf's and slow for a melee fighter, ignore increasing his horizontal movement speed in a significant way - 1.432 to 1.472 - while increasing Fox's air speed which Falco shared in Brawl, double the startup on Dash Attack - not that abusable of a move - and Fair - a frame 6 frame would be abusable, but it wouldn't mean instant death if you can't land this move with major landing lag -, increase Nair's landing lag by 6 - it was 9 in Brawl -, increase his Dair startup by 11 frames without taking into account how he's going to be able to land that when his old Dair was kind of difficult to land without a setup as most moves are, make Bair look like Wolf's in animation, but not accounting for why Falco needed a sex kick or why Wolf was able to abuse his Bair which was actually slower than Falco's by 2 frames, and oh, let's add one more frame to Side Smash's startup because why the hell not? What got "buffed"? Fall speed to match Brawl Wolf's fall speed. Debatable as it could factor into Falco being easier to juggle now. I'm not sure about knockback changes, but end lag, landing lag, the rest of his moves startup, and damage changes aside from throws, Reflector, and Fair are pretty much the same.

What made Falco strong in not a broken way and from a design point was his ability to zone or anti-zone. If Falco could something similar to Mario and Luigi - covering their approaches or force approaches -, he wouldn't be in this situation of having a projectile only really useful for off-stage and tacking on damage he physically cannot reach because his poor mobility. What made it too strong was the ability to auto-cancel his Blaster made even more broken in Brawl when he could fire SHDL instead of being limited to SHL. Luigi can't auto-cancel his Fireball, but people knows how strong his Fireball is to his game. His weaknesses from previous games still exist: poor recovery - in Smash 4, it's the stupid hitbox on Falco Phantasm making it worse and that pretty much everyone's recovery is good in Smash 4 -, poor ability to confirm kills - he can rack up damage and kill well, but he can't confirm them easily made worse by having a slower spike and the end lag on Blaster preventing him from stalling his opponent for a kill -, and a poor disadvantage - fast fall speed and slow air speed - made worst by losing his old Bair with a front hitbox.

Marth on the other hand, was toned down too far and given such a difficult playstyle. If Marth was in a Street Fighter-esque game, then spacing his tippers would be much easier and much more rewarding than trying to space tippers in a game where a monkey can run and flip around everywhere or a blue hedgehog can zip by making you look stupid. Marth at least his extremely powerful punishes, the subtle buffs to his Dancing Blade and jab make his game less painful, and customs, especially Crescent Slash, adds a kill confirm from grab. Having natural disjoints, Falchion, and being very mobile help as well.
 

**Gilgamesh**

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I really don't want :4sheik: to be nerfed anymore, she has been nerfed in every patch so far and is still the best character in the game, can we just accept this already? I really am edgy about her since any other nerf could literally ruin her at this point. However if people insist on nerfing her more please give back some of her kill power on her moves otherwise she will be just meh.

I mean if we look at what has already been nerfed, the list is
  • Fair damage nerf
  • Uair damage nerf (hit 1 less time and does % less)
  • Increased end lag on needles (Another nerf that was needed)
  • Bouncing Fish knock back nerf (okay this move was super crazy in the beginning I'll give you that)
  • Down-Tilt Damage nerf
  • Bair Damage nerf and lowered knock back
As you can see she has been nerfed quite a lot making her more bearable, just be grateful that she's not 1.0 Sheik. Even though Sheik still has a excellent MU spread, I feel that more buffs to lower tiers characters would do more good then more nerfs. Nerfs not only make you have to learn some aspects of the character again but also can be unneeded (Ex. Greninja getting nerfs all over).One of the reasons why Sheik does so well in smash 4 is because she's feel more like a melee character (barely any lag, very quick) then everybody else causing her to be the best in the game. I would much rather prefer to buff lower tier characters now then more nerfs.
I am somewhat scared of future balance patches if people continue to complain about :4sheik:. I do believe that sheik's character design (being fast, having excellent frame data, and having a projectile) feel out of place in smash 4, but that's a developer oversight. They already attempted to address sheik multiple times already, however if you feel that the nerfs were in the wrong area then that's another thing. Atm :4sheik: is at a very weird and risky spot if you do think the nerfs were in the wrong area and I fear for her :/ .
 

Shaya

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Falcon's back air is 7 10 frames start up and in practically all situations I've seen played out is safe on 90% of the cast's POWER SHIELDS.
Sourspot auto cancels reliably and is also incredibly safe, combos into things like KILL MOVES.
Falcon's up air is capable of hitting characters low on the ground, really annoys me that ZSS' upair cannot do the same thing :<
To me his damage values give him too much. He doesn't need nerfs, almost no one needs nerfs at this stage. But he is a sore thumb in what I see as a pretty balanced upper region of the cast.
The character's meta has barely been advanced AT ALL, Fatality makes Falcon look stupid...ly amazing and would not be having [much] less success with a tune-down of some numbers.

Luigi on the other hand. What high level Luigis are you dealing with so confidently to say you should feel bad for suggesting he could do with nerfs? If you shield fireballs you get grabbed, if you take the hit everyone's saying "attack back!" and as good as that is to force some degree of respect from Luigi, it doesn't need Chess-like skills to evaluate how that chain of events will go (Hint: only safe thing for the receiver will eventually come down to rolling away). Luigi blindly shooting fireballs and dash grabbing is the low/mid level game plan that gets stupidly good results. But what I'm reading here simply is not how things pan out against competent players (similar to 'oh villager things, oh donkey kong things' just need XY to beat it... "how come all these tournament players cannot ADAPT like I can?").

This game/Smash Bros in general isn't that simple, nearly everything that is remotely telegraphed is hard punishable in every game.
I think a character who has an extremely good dash grab, where we've seen damage values on safe moves reduced significantly on average across the cast (negating a lot of Luigi's weakness of shield push back from every other Smash game thus far), a safe spammable mid-range projectile, with the degree of free damage/kills that he is given?
I don't think most characters in the game can handle that. But we'll see, I definitely agree there's a large range of counterplay to Luigi's design that we aren't really seeing implemented right now, and as far as high/top tiers go, he's not invalidating other viable characters like Diddy seemed to.

Luigi has had many buffs and game design intentions have benefited him, he was [un]fortunately ordained by the Sakurai-Gods to have a thoughtless down throw that allows him to dominate. The speed/degree at which he is being picked up and used successfully is daunting, it isn't Diddy-level, but it's of similar feeling.

Also just so it's obvious, I would prefer characters getting buffed too. As I mentioned in passing, if every low tier was given the Mario treatment (given top quarter mobility specs in every department, low landing lag and good auto cancels on every move, a degree of safety on shield with most moves including smash attacks and specials which are strong in neutral) then life would be pretty sweet (i.e. what Falco used to have and what he wants now). However, with this in mind I wouldn't want characters to be buffed so they became like Falcon ("every move does 15%!") or Luigi ("I only need to grab to win").
 
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Ffamran

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@ Shaya Shaya , Captain Falcon and Ganondorf's Bair hit on frame 10. If they were frame 7, it would be even more godly (or devil-y for Ganondorf). Fatality's Captain Falcon is just ludicrous and I was both amazed and felt sad for the rookies who had to fight him at Momocon only to get 2-stocked within 50 seconds of the match. Even his own crew gets murdered within seconds. It's like Limbs gets a leg up, then Fatality comes down and tears him to shreds. Fatality SD's and makes it look like just a flesh wound. This is one Captain Falcon I want people to aspire to and use Captain Falcon's speed and advantage to overwhelm people to death.

Buffing the other characters, like making the end lag on Marth's moves would be fantastic, making Link's IASA reasonable, but not too fast for his jab would be great, and I would gladly, gladly trade away a strong spike on Falco for a fast, but weak spike, his strong, Wolf Bair for his old Bair if it meant making it weaker, making his Fair and Dash Attack have their old hit frames while being weaker ones - like it'll matter when Falco catches you with Fair and gimps you -, severely decreased range on Blaster for severely less end lag, and oh, a faster standing grab would be nice. Some buffs will be nerfs, but if those nerfs means Falco is a significantly safer character, then nerf away. This assumes any of this can happen. IASA, end lag, landing lag, and startup can change, but overhauling a move wouldn't be something worth their time like how I don't see Samus getting her old Nair in a patch, but a faster Nair might be possible. Nerfing can destroy characters, but buffing destroyed characters might be better in the long run as everyone ends up broken. :p

This assumes there will be any "balance patches" and frankly, as long as nothing majorly janky exists in a fighting game, I don't see a reason to patch anything. Nintendo might never patch again unless Lucas ends up as a broken character like how Mewtwo kind of wrecked singleplayer modes when you tried to use him or as we've seen, Little Mac's jab in pre-patch 3DS days. Still, calling for buffs might be a better outcry. It's like a sign from the community saying, "Everyone's okay, but some of these characters could be stronger", compared to, "This character is broken! FIX HIM!"

Anyway, back to the topic, is there ever a reason why Marth/Lucina don't want to end Dancing Blade? I don't know if the video was uploaded, but a player at DVDA would use Marth's Dancing Blade up to the 2nd down input of Dancing Blade and then stop. It might be a mindgame thing since Marth would dip in and dip out for that input.
 
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Ikes

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So what's the general consensus on the following characters? How do we feel about them? These are characters I've heard about the least and dont really know the general consensus about them (bar toon link, I just wanna know a sort of paraphrased view on him to get a better idea)

:4tlink:
:4drmario:
:4bowserjr:
:4wiifit:
:4pit:
:4lucario:
:4jigglypuff:
:4myfriends:

I'm assuming customs on since that seems to be getting closer to being standard, since EVO has them enabled.
 

Nobie

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They did a pretty bad job balancing frame data as a whole across the cast tbh. Some characters like Luigi Sheik and Mario won the frame data lottery while others like charizard have inexplicably bad frame data.
Well, I think on some level it makes sense for Charizard, who has the most super armor moves (EDIT: OUTSIDE OF LITTLE MAC) (and the most practical super armor moves), and one of the best grab range to grab speed ratios in the game, and tons of relatively quick KO moves, and a kill throw in down throw, to be on the shorter end of the stick when it comes to frame data.
 
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Shaya

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@ Ffamran Ffamran you're right. I don't know how I got "7 frame bair", which is his nair's start up. And it was 10 in Brawl too. I guess I've been caught up with how similar back airs tend to be or confusion within talks about his aerials.

Altering the timing of the strikes gives you different traps or can give you tipper hits of later parts. And assuming you mean DB-Down3, it steps him back quite a bit afterwards while people are still focused on the fourth strike/etc. If people buffer or throw out an attack and don't appreciate the space the move gives him, then it's da free punishes.
Dancing Blade mix ups were a thing in Brawl too, but weren't considered "real". I think in Smash4 you're more likely to get caught out (well, db1 to grab isn't a thing anymore) by the falchions stopping DB early, but people who know the match up shouldn't be getting done by it (jump air dodge too good).
 

Ffamran

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Yeah, I noticed how far Marth would step back during Dancing Blade Down 3, but I didn't know what you could really do out of it and what the player was going for since I think he just did it, left the opponent to be a bit confused while standing there. The issue was he was using it constantly which would probably kill the mixup since his opponent would have noticed by then. Rage tippers are scary since he killed his opponent at 60%-70% center stage with ~130% rage.

Edit: I think the Marth was Airvault and the tournament might not be uploaded yet on New Meta Stream.
 
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Nysyr

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I'm assuming customs on since that seems to be getting closer to being standard, since EVO has them enabled.
Lol, not really. I assume you've missed some of the drama on reddit/twitter.

Lucario benefits in no way from customs, literally only coming in to play when trying to get around other customs. The rest don't gain something janky enough to dominate the neutral in the customs meta.
 

Ulevo

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The only character I feel needs nerfs to their kit is Captain Falcon. Not because he is too strong, but because his kit is overloaded in areas where it is inappropriate to the degree that it exudes bad game design. This is mostly evident in his hitbox sizes. There is no reason he should be shooting Ki blasts out of his jab, or have a longer forward smash than Ike. I would be fine if he got compensation buffs to other areas that were appropriate to his strength and weakness dynamics.

Other changes could probably be made, like small adjustments. i.e. Luigi not having 14% back air. But overall the balance feels pretty good near the top.

Lol, not really. I assume you've missed some of the drama on reddit/twitter.

Lucario benefits in no way from customs, literally only coming in to play when trying to get around other customs. The rest don't gain something janky enough to dominate the neutral in the customs meta.
This is wrong, honestly. It would be nice if this was not perpetuated so much, and from Lucario mains no less.
 
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ぱみゅ

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To be fair, a lot of people, me included, don't really care for twitter/reddit drama
 

PokemonyeWest

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is there ever a reason why Marth/Lucina don't want to end Dancing Blade? I don't know if the video was uploaded, but a player at DVDA would use Marth's Dancing Blade up to the 2nd down input of Dancing Blade and then stop. It might be a mindgame thing since Marth would dip in and dip out for that input.

I've played against people who stop Dancing Blade short to attempt a quick Shield Breaker or Dolphin Slash
 

san.

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Falcon's jab is super safe, but it's not that long ranged. Heck, I think Sonic's jab is longer (maybe not very fair, it has a lot of range for no reason).

I think only uair is overloaded since it's so quick and does so much damage. Bair is somewhat slow (made up for because of Falcon's lower jump squat), dair is good in a game with a ton of bad/mediocre dairs, and nair/fair are good. Tilts have their purpose, but they don't seem overbearing, and specials are situational. Mostly everything else that's overloaded is in his physics and grab, which is more than enough to get by.

As an aside, I find it a little silly that 7 frame jump squats still exist when so many other physical characteristics were tweaked. Some characters would've been made much more viable had the max jump squat been just 2 frames quicker.
 

Ulevo

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Falcon's jab is super safe, but it's not that long ranged. Heck, I think Sonic's jab is longer (maybe not very fair, it has a lot of range for no reason).

I think only uair is overloaded since it's so quick and does so much damage. Bair is somewhat slow (made up for because of Falcon's lower jump squat), dair is good in a game with a ton of bad/mediocre dairs, and nair/fair are good. Tilts have their purpose, but they don't seem overbearing, and specials are situational. Mostly everything else that's overloaded is in his physics and grab, which is more than enough to get by.

As an aside, I find it a little silly that 7 frame jump squats still exist when so many other physical characteristics were tweaked. Some characters would've been made much more viable had the max jump squat been just 2 frames quicker.
Go in to training mode right now and test the range of rapid jab 3's horizontal hitbox. Also do that for up smash and Falcon Dive.
 
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