Character Competitive Impressions

[Mazdamaxsti]

best edge guarders in the game?

Come to mind.

 

[|RK|]

According to this post Ally is considering becoming a Marth main because Mario is too autopilot. Given how highly Mario is regarded and how disappointed people are in Marth this sounds crazy, but it also made me wonder about how people view smash in general. There's this idea that the best players want the safest options at all times, but Ally is potentially trading in some of the best frame data in the game for a character who thrives off of getting just the right read.

Not unreasonable. Different players have different strengths and preferences. Part of the reason I switched from Lucario to Kirby (outside of character preference) was that I couldn't tell whether I was getting better or just getting away with bull****. Ally wants to keep sharp presumably, and down the list he goes.

 

[Blobface]

Ganondorf has very deadly edgeguarding, but I'm not really sure it's the best. I'd say Pikachu is the best since he's just so good at covering all recovery options.

Ganondorf's edgeguarding is pretty much binary if he plays it right (and you don't have i-frames on your recovery). You either airdodge or your don't, and if he reads either, you die pretty much regardless of percent.

 

[webbedspace]

Link to the full tourney VOD ft. Ally's Marth is here BTW.

 

[Makorel]

Pit is fantastic at edge guarding IMO. His Up B is actually very useful offensively because it takes all the fear out of going way out into the open just to tack on damage. Also his disjointed everything.

 

[Kofu]

Must I remind thee of the dreaded hydrant+tramp ledge setup!?

Also, red trampolines on the ledge immediately kill opponents depending on what get up they do. Some are left to 1 get up option, others have two left, and the lucky ones keep all four.

However, some characters can't avoid this at all like mega man and Ness.

Can you elaborate on this? This is the first time I've heard of the setup (and it definitely IS a setup, it woudntske some time to prepare) but sounds brutal. Where is the trampoline positioned exactly?

Pit is fantastic at edge guarding IMO. His Up B is actually very useful offensively because it takes all the fear out of going way out into the open just to tack on damage. Also his disjointed everything.

And this is the reason why all the recovery customs that lack hitboxes but greatly increase range can never be counted out. The extra edgeguard potential in them is immense.

 

[Nu~]

Can you elaborate on this? This is the first time I've heard of the setup (and it definitely IS a setup, it woudntske some time to prepare) but sounds brutal. Where is the trampoline positioned exactly?

If you position the trampoline halfway on the ledge and halfway on the stage, opponents are forced to bounce on it depending on their get up option. Some characters require a more specific spacing though, like farther off the ledge.

Yoshi and jigglypuff ignore it, while chars like Ness, mega man, and R.O.B touch it no matter what. When the trampoline is red however, opponents die instead of being bounced up.

This is actually easier to setup with meteor trampoline, and denies even more get up options for certain characters like bowser Jr (can usually ledge attack over red trampoline, dies with red meteor trampoline)

 

[1FC0]

Diddy, Rosalina, and Yoshi are obviously top tier R.O.B. is mid tier and Ganondorf will reside somewhere in the darkness of the underworldtier.

 

[Smog Frog]

is that with customs on or off, because in customs on i believe is upper mid

 

[DanGR]

"Obvious" is quite a strong word to use this early.

 

[1FC0]

is that with customs on or off, because in customs on i believe is upper mid

Off.

 

[webbedspace]

"Obvious" is quite a strong word to use this early.

Even until just a month ago it was "obvious" that Kirby was D-tier alongside Samus and Charizard. Maybe those smash attack and d-throw buffs helped, but now the word is out that he's mid with defaults and top with Uppercutter.

Meanwhile, I'm still wondering why a supposed "mid" like ROB has so many mains taking top 8 in so many regions.

 

[Blobface]

Placing Ganondorf on a tier list is always awkward, since I'd say 48 of 53 matchups are effectively 50:50, in the sense that both characters can always outplay the other to win*. Few characters really have the kind of advantages that allow them to get around Ganondorf's ability to kill you in 5 seconds, and Ganondorf can never just cruise to victory without any effort. Sheik, ZSS, Rosalina, Villager, and Pikachu (arguably) are Ganon's worst matchups in customs off, and the only matchups where you need to significantly outplay the opponent to win. Problem is, all the characters listed are high/top tier, so whether that's a dealbreaker or not remains to be seen. I'd put him as mid-tier in customs off as of now.

In customs, basically all of his worst matchups are alleviated by Dark Fists + Dropkick, meaning he has almost 100% 50:50 and 1-2 60:40's. With all his significantly bad matchups pretty much gone, I'd place him in high-tier customs off as of now.

*except for Kirby, Ganondorf has a big advantage against Kirby customs off. It's one of the few characters where he ran really abuse his range, since Kirby's hitboxes aren't disjointed and he doesn't have a projectile. Kirby's recovery is surprisingly bad against Ganondorf's edgeguarding, and while Kirby is OK at killing, he's nowhere close to Ganondorf in that respect. In customs, he gets a ton of good options, most importantly Upper-Cutter, which makes it so he's not just a punching bag offstage.

 

[1FC0]

Meanwhile, I'm still wondering why a supposed "mid" like ROB has so many mains taking top 8 in so many regions.

Wonder no more, for my answer will set you free of ignorance!
R.O.B. places so well because R.O.B. mains are really skilled in general.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

So ... who does Ness lose against?

 

[Nu~]

So ... who does Ness lose against?

Come to mind

People who can safely avoid him in footsies and disrespect his grab game imo. People with excellent gimping tools probably do well against him too.

@ Luco a little help?

 

[HeavyLobster]

Placing Ganondorf on a tier list is always awkward, since I'd say 48 of 53 matchups are effectively 50:50, in the sense that both characters can always outplay the other to win*. Few characters really have the kind of advantages that allow them to get around Ganondorf's ability to kill you in 5 seconds, and Ganondorf can never just cruise to victory without any effort. Sheik, ZSS, Rosalina, Villager, and Pikachu (arguably) are Ganon's worst matchups in customs off, and the only matchups where you need to significantly outplay the opponent to win. Problem is, all the characters listed are high/top tier, so whether that's a dealbreaker or not remains to be seen. I'd put him as mid-tier in customs off as of now.

In customs, basically all of his worst matchups are alleviated by Dark Fists + Dropkick, meaning he has almost 100% 50:50 and 1-2 60:40's. With all his significantly bad matchups pretty much gone, I'd place him in high-tier customs off as of now.

*except for Kirby, Ganondorf has a big advantage against Kirby customs off. It's one of the few characters where he ran really abuse his range, since Kirby's hitboxes aren't disjointed and he doesn't have a projectile. Kirby's recovery is surprisingly bad against Ganondorf's edgeguarding, and while Kirby is OK at killing, he's nowhere close to Ganondorf in that respect. In customs, he gets a ton of good options, most importantly Upper-Cutter, which makes it so he's not just a punching bag offstage.

Customs on Ganon really just exists outside of tier lists, as on one hand, nothing he has is really safe or reliable, but on the other hand there's no way to truly stay safe against him, as with the right read Dropkick can break through otherwise safe projectile walls, while Dark Fists can punish otherwise safe aerials. He's no longer low % gimp fodder and outhits basically everyone while lasting longer than most thanks to his recovery buffs. There are still MUs where one side has to work harder than the other, and his top tier MUs are still likely slightly disadvantaged for him, but there's nothing Ganon can't ever deal with in customs on. Ganon probably winds up low-mid in customs off simply because there's a few very prominent things in the meta he has no answers for without customs, and is probably middle of the pack in customs on.

 

[Scarlet Jile]

So ... who does Ness lose against?

He feels at a very slight disadvantage against Yoshi. I just feel like Yoshi excels against anyone who isn't fast enough to keep Yoshi's pressure off. Ness is one of the few high-tier characters in that boat.

 

[Luco]

Come to mind

People who can safely avoid him in footsies and disrespect his grab game imo. People with excellent gimping tools probably do well against him too.

@ Luco a little help?

Considering the trampoline thing, it's very possible we lose to Pac-man, though I haven't really considered it in the past. Any results with this one? Not discrediting you here, I'm genuinely curious.

The other two are probably losses, though some could argue MM for even. Sheik is a -1 because of needles and Fair being too stronk, but we do really well against her because lol rage Bthrow so it's alright.

Our worst MUs would be and , with and being close evens, although @Shaky mentioned he thought might be a -1 (he also mentioned might not be so bad). Other evens would include and maybe but a lot of Ness mains think we beat her ( @David Viran mentioned downB gimping though which might push it back to even, @ Shaya and @NickRiddle would also be useful sources here).

With that in mind, we think our MU spread would probably look something a little like:

-2: (Even with the nerf he's a boat load of trouble)
-1: (a couple more characters that I put in even could also be argued to be in this spot)
0: and a few others.
+1: and a lot more.
etc.

Yoshi's an interesting case, most Ness and Yoshi mains feel the MU is even but more like a 0.5 Yoshi's favour. He's very heavy, forces us to approach, that kind of thing. Would be interested to hear @Z'zgashi talk about it if he has time.

A lot of tagging went into this post. I like this discussion. <3

 

[Smog Frog]

i think is one of the top/high tiers that can hang with.

 

[Nu~]

Considering the trampoline thing, it's very possible we lose to Pac-man, though I haven't really considered it in the past. Any results with this one? Not discrediting you here, I'm genuinely curious.

The other two are probably losses, though some could argue MM for even. Sheik is a -1 because of needles and Fair being too stronk, but we do really well against her because lol rage Bthrow so it's alright.

Our worst MUs would be and , with and being close evens, although @Shaky mentioned he thought might be a -1 (he also mentioned might not be so bad). Other evens would include and maybe but a lot of Ness mains think we beat her ( @David Viran mentioned downB gimping though which might push it back to even, @ Shaya and @NickRiddle would also be useful sources here).

With that in mind, we think our MU spread would probably look something a little like:

-2: (Even with the nerf he's a boat load of trouble)
-1: (a couple more characters that I put in even could also be argued to be in this spot)
0: and a few others.
+1: and a lot more.
etc.

Yoshi's an interesting case, most Ness and Yoshi mains feel the MU is even but more like a 0.5 Yoshi's favour. He's very heavy, forces us to approach, that kind of thing. Would be interested to hear @Z'zgashi talk about it if he has time.

A lot of tagging went into this post. I like this discussion. <3

I personally haven't fought that many high level Ness players, but there are people in the Pac-Man thread who have fought Ness in tourney and have found that he doesn't give us much trouble.

Trampoline is the key (lol) to this matchup. He's forced to approach us from the air while we chill on the ground. Our side B can stop PK Fire and we can shorten his recovery by letting him hit our pellet.

@BSP may be able to help more than me.

 

[Luco]

i think is one of the top/high tiers that can hang with.

Hmm, I don't know. Mewtwo has to be really careful with SB in this MU (oh my god it's a full 30% heal from a not-even-fully-charged one yummmm). and he's in the 'almost as light as jiggs' category when it comes to killing with Bthrow or really anything else - ergo, with all of our kill aerials and throws he finds it really hard to last. Not sure about his tail but I think we outrange his T-rex arms with Fair and even Nair. Going offstage to edge-guard him isn't the best option but we have PKT and we can also juggle him with it.

Pac-Man I really wouldn't be the best Ness main to ask (I've been out of the meta for over 5 months now, and I've only ever fought a decent Pac-Man in tourney once before ) unfortunately.

 

[Plain Yogurt]

Hmm, I don't know. Mewtwo has to be really careful with SB in this MU (oh my god it's like a 50% heal from a fully charged one yummmm). and he's in the 'almost as light as jiggs' category when it comes to killing with Bthrow or really anything else - ergo, with all of our kill aerials and throws he finds it really hard to last. Not sure about his tail but I think we outrange his T-rex arms with Fair and even Nair. Going offstage to edge-guard him isn't the best option but we have PKT and we can also juggle him with it.

Pac-Man I really wouldn't be the best Ness main to ask (I've been out of the meta for over 5 months now, and I've only ever fought a decent Pac-Man in tourney once before ) unfortunately.

Doesn't PSI Magnet recovery cap at 30?

 

[Luco]

Doesn't PSI Magnet recovery cap at 30?

Ahh derp, yeah I think you're right. Placebo effect makes me think it's more.

Sorry about that. :/

 

[Smog Frog]

http://www.twitch.tv/tourneylocator the most beautiful dittos ever

edit: its over now, sd misclick by ashen

 

[TheReflexWonder]

A little bit of wall jump utility. Not every wall jumping character can do this, but, still.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

*except for Kirby, Ganondorf has a big advantage against Kirby customs off. It's one of the few characters where he ran really abuse his range, since Kirby's hitboxes aren't disjointed and he doesn't have a projectile. Kirby's recovery is surprisingly bad against Ganondorf's edgeguarding, and while Kirby is OK at killing, he's nowhere close to Ganondorf in that respect. In customs, he gets a ton of good options, most importantly Upper-Cutter, which makes it so he's not just a punching bag offstage.

Kirby technically does have a projectile, but Final Cutter's shockwave is basically worthless as such.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Wario has really grown on me. At first I pretty much forgot he was in this game, and after I started using him I didn't like him. I guess I wasn't used to his new animations or something but his moveset just looked really bad. I thought Nair was useless. But after using him for a while, here are my thoughts:
1) Wario is one of if not THE best at covering ledge options in the game. Chomp covers get up attack, neutral get up, and non-disjointed ledge-hop aerials. He can mix it up and punish ledge rolls and jumps, always keeping the opponent on their toes. The only character that might be better than Wario at this is probably ROB, because of gyro traps.
2) Bike shenanigans. They're a lot of fun and are really useful (just watch the Mysmashcorner video on it tbh).
3) The Waft is self-explanitory.
4) He has among the best D-tilts in the game. Maybe Peach's is better. Wario can combo it into either grab or dash attack and it sometimes true combos. Reminds me of DKs in that sense.
5) His dash attack is incredible. 100% trip chance at the sourspot leads to some pretty awesome setups and tech-chases which can lead to more sour dash attacks. The trip can also combo into other stuff if the opponent doesn't react in time.
6) Ludicrous recovery distance.
7) Fair and Dtilt are awesome spacing tools.
8) His Fthrow kills, and that's very important in this game.

He's aight.
EDIT:
9) His OOS options are... decent I suppose. Usmash doesn't have enough horizontal range but he has Nair for taller characters and Fair for everyone else.
10) For some reason sour dash attack JAB RESETS and can be combos from d-throw if for some reason the opponent misses the tech.
11) Warios bike simply murders people with linear recoveries when thrown. It also deals like 20%.
12) People keep saying his aerial mobility nerf hurts him a lot but with Smash 4's physics it doesn't seem too detrimental.
13) Wario's taunts are completely overpowered. Only Captain Falcon's taunts are better.

 

[**Gilgamesh**]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LKd9PDEdqpM
Zero vs Coco
Is the MU vs really that bad or is it just ZeRo?

 

[Fatmanonice]

According to this post Ally is considering becoming a Marth main because Mario is too autopilot. Given how highly Mario is regarded and how disappointed people are in Marth this sounds crazy, but it also made me wonder about how people view smash in general. There's this idea that the best players want the safest options at all times, but Ally is potentially trading in some of the best frame data in the game for a character who thrives off of getting just the right read.

This wouldn't surprise me. Back in the Brawl days, he picked up Captain Falcon to get him out of "oh you're serious? Let me laugh even harder" tier. Granted, he never got out of low tier but at least Ally did well enough with the character so that he was no longer viewed the worst in the game.

This is one thing that I've liked about this game so far, there's not a whole lot of characters that people have just flat out given up on. With Brawl, the low tiers were practically a sealed deal within months of the game coming out while in this game people seem to be a lot more motivated to prove that their character isn't bad. This along with customs and potential patches make me believe that watching the meta game grow for this game is going to be truly enjoyable.

 

[TriTails]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LKd9PDEdqpM
Zero vs Coco
Is the MU vs really that bad or is it just ZeRo?

Coco got rekt.

Not really sure if the MU is 'meteor-crashing-the-earth' bad though. Maybe it's just ZeRo.

 

[SpottedCerberus]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LKd9PDEdqpM
Zero vs Coco
Is the MU vs really that bad or is it just ZeRo?

Both, I think. It's a pretty bad MU for Olimar. Just not as bad as ZeRo makes it look.

 

[Blobface]

Ganondorf can actually hit ledge-snap vulnerability with Fair facing away from the stage, allowing him to land some crazy early kills. It's surprisingly easy to land too since Fair's hitbox lasts so long.

This makes me wonder if several other characters can something similar. How many characters have an attack that arcs from behind the character to in front like Ganon's Fair?

 

[Shaya]

Sheik is Oli's worst match up apparently and is the main reason why RichBrown has considered dropping Oli / moving onto Sheik or Luigi himself.

Sheik out camps him, fair easily beats Oli on the ground from the air (Brawl Marth fair-esque). Has reactive bouncing fish punishes on most of his moveset, can go very deep off stage against his "buffed" recovery and kill him.

 

[TriTails]

Sheik is Oli's worst match up apparently and is the main reason why RichBrown has considered dropping Oli / moving onto Sheik or Luigi himself.

What. What's switching to Luigi is going to do him any good against Sheik?

Though, while the MU might be better than Olimar... it's still not good. Thank God Luigi has N-air.

 

[Shaya]

He just generally thinks/felt that Oli isn't viable.

 

[SpottedCerberus]

Does Sheik have any bad match-ups? The worst ones I can think of are even.

 

[Shaya]

Going by results that you see. Fox and Sonic mains are coming out on top against Sheiks.
But that doesn't necessarily mean an advantage.

Actually Rosas seem to come out on top often too.

 

[Browny]

Results confirm everything Sonic for MK tier

 

[Ikes]

Come to mind

People who can safely avoid him in footsies and disrespect his grab game imo. People with excellent gimping tools probably do well against him too.

@ Luco a little help?

I hear Bowser hard counters ness

is it because tough guy shrugs off a lot of ness's specials?

I imagine PK Fire wouldnt make him flinch whatsoever, which removes one of ness's biggest grab setups

Wario has really grown on me. At first I pretty much forgot he was in this game, and after I started using him I didn't like him. I guess I wasn't used to his new animations or something but his moveset just looked really bad. I thought Nair was useless. But after using him for a while, here are my thoughts:
1) Wario is one of if not THE best at covering ledge options in the game. Chomp covers get up attack, neutral get up, and non-disjointed ledge-hop aerials. He can mix it up and punish ledge rolls and jumps, always keeping the opponent on their toes. The only character that might be better than Wario at this is probably ROB, because of gyro traps.
2) Bike shenanigans. They're a lot of fun and are really useful (just watch the Mysmashcorner video on it tbh).
3) The Waft is self-explanitory.
4) He has among the best D-tilts in the game. Maybe Peach's is better. Wario can combo it into either grab or dash attack and it sometimes true combos. Reminds me of DKs in that sense.
5) His dash attack is incredible. 100% trip chance at the sourspot leads to some pretty awesome setups and tech-chases which can lead to more sour dash attacks. The trip can also combo into other stuff if the opponent doesn't react in time.
6) Ludicrous recovery distance.
7) Fair and Dtilt are awesome spacing tools.
8) His Fthrow kills, and that's very important in this game.

He's aight.
EDIT:
9) His OOS options are... decent I suppose. Usmash doesn't have enough horizontal range but he has Nair for taller characters and Fair for everyone else.
10) For some reason sour dash attack JAB RESETS and can be combos from d-throw if for some reason the opponent misses the tech.
11) Warios bike simply murders people with linear recoveries when thrown. It also deals like 20%.
12) People keep saying his aerial mobility nerf hurts him a lot but with Smash 4's physics it doesn't seem too detrimental.
13) Wario's taunts are completely overpowered. Only Captain Falcon's taunts are better.

oh my god the bike shenanigans though

I gimped my super good level 50 amiibo on delfino with it as the stage was transforming within ten seconds of his respawning and trying to gimp me himself, I have a video of it, here u go