Character Competitive Impressions

[Antonykun]

I mean...isn't that what 60:40 basically is? A slight advantage?

(The fact that the same numbers can mean different things to different people is why I've stopped caring too much about them.)

60:40 (in a 5:5 scale which they were using) means that a character has a noticeable, but still surmountable, advantage
55:45 is a slight advantage.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Yeah, I don't even think Yun had an even to positive matchup spread against the rest of the cast at the height of SS4:AE, and he was deliberately designed to be slightly overwhelming to the rest of the cast.

And results at the time contrasted with that notion, too. He was a presence in Top 10, sure, but seldom did he sweep tourneys.

50:50 is even
60:40 is an advantage
70:30 is a distinct advantage
80:20 is Mike Tyson versus a child
90:10 is a steamroller versus a person in a sleeping bag
100:0 is you unplugging your opponents controller at the start of the match and then beating them to death with it

also, pls Smash Community, this man has the right idea. None of this 55:45 crap

Smooth Criminal

 

[Ffamran]

tiny brawler has falco height jumps, he just falls slow

Oh, great... More stuff to invalidate Falco. Might as well remove him from the game, so we can stop all these Falco lasers, Falco jumps, Falco aerials, Falco ground moves, and Falco whatever! I swear if Jet the Hawk gets in and he's a Falco clone... BUT BETTER!

I just don't get why we need to compare Greninja with other characters like that when he just plays completely differently from anybody else even if we do have some similarities here and there with other characters (I do agree that ZSS is the closest to being similar to Greninja though) he still has his own unique gameplay style and I never see any other character being called a worse version of another character in the game as much as Greninja even though he plays nothing like them.

How do you think I feel? Here's the thing, people will compare things. Dr. Mario was called out as a worse Luigi, Ganondorf as a worse Captain Falcon, Ike a worse Shulk, Or whatever. For some, it's just a way to talk about something they might not know. Wario's Dtilt might be called a Diddy Dtilt, but safer or Mewtwo's Up Smash as a better Zelda Up Smash. Those are reasonable and sometimes shallow comparisons since most of the time, moves aren't always the same.

 

[Zelder]

I don't think we're going to see anymore 80:20, 90:10 matchups in modern fighting games (that at least try to balance the characters). A 90:10 matchup is like...Sagat versus T. Hawk. A fight that you (yes you the reader) could win just by knowing how to throw a fireball and a low fireball.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Don't forget Gouki/Sim in ST.

Smooth Criminal

 

[HeroMystic]

I mean...isn't that what 60:40 basically is? A slight advantage?

60:40 Always meant a solid advantage, even back in Melee (and other FGCs).
70:30 is a heavy advantage and puts the MU on the realm of a counterpick.

A 55:45 is a slight advantage, which basically means "it should be 60:40 but our character ain't that bad so lets make it 55:45 instead".

 

[bc1910]

If Pac-mains are calling 60:40 a small advantage it explains some of the discrepancies people have about his MUs. This is why i don't bother putting actual ratios on MUs any more, analysis and discussion with the conclusion "I think this is even" or "I think we have a small advantage here" or whatever is a lorn ore valuable IMO.

How do you think I feel? Here's the thing, people will compare things. Dr. Mario was called out as a worse Luigi, Ganondorf as a worse Captain Falcon, Ike a worse Shulk, Or whatever. For some, it's just a way to talk about something they might not know. Wario's Dtilt might be called a Diddy Dtilt, but safer or Mewtwo's Up Smash as a better Zelda Up Smash. Those are reasonable and sometimes shallow comparisons since most of the time, moves aren't always the same.

Comparing moves is one thing, calling a character a worse version of another is a totally different kettle of fish. Especially when the comparisons hold no water. I don't actually see that said about Falco much. Idk why you'd feel bad about him in that respect. Feeling bad about him because he's bad is fair enough but maining a bad character is different to maining an underrated one.

(For the record I don't actually think Falco is that bad, just wanted to get my point across)

 

[Ulevo]

It is really an interpretation thing. I was never fond of 55:45 because I do not like splitting hairs. As long as people understand that you should not be winning 3:7 match ups unless there is a measurable skill differential, that is all that really matters. 4:6 is quite winnable. If you win a 2:8 match up, the opponent should probably feel embarrassed unless they are very new or inexperienced.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Well, @ Ulevo , miracles do happen.

...just not very often.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Emblem Lord]

Imma keep it real.

60/40 I always feel like the advantage person is going to win unless they make at least two huge errors/gambles. I'm talking you did a random ass super and ate a half life combo for your trouble. You got knocked down and ate a dank mix-up into another reset.You called an airdodge but your timing was off and then you get u-smashed after your opponent lands. Basically.....shenanigans. Barring that you should win the majority of those matches and if you don't you should feel bad and git good.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

duhuhuhuh

 

[Ulevo]

duhuhuhuh

Customs I assume?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Customs off.

I don't have experience against a lot of characters, so I could be wildly off-base here and there. I tried to use a mix of results and personal theorycraft for those characters. How much of each I'll never say, because it's easier to hide behind that way.

 

[Mr. Johan]

I s2g all four Fire Emblem characters are just all over the place when these tier lists are made.

The point of Fire Emblem is adaptability and flexibility, but who would have guessed that'd be extended to Smash tier lists as well.


@ Ulevo Palutena's way down there in D, so doubtful.

 

[Ulevo]

List does not look terrible. Marth and Lucina look too high to me. Dr. Mario looks too low. I might change the order in the tiers a little, but I definitely see things that could be argued in favour of a list like this.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Customs I assume?

Let's put it this way for quite literally everyone in this thread.
If a tier list somebody makes doesn't have characters like DK Palutena Mii brawler and villager in top 3-15 it's most likely a customs off.

If a tier list has mii brawler in there randomly in like top 5/7 but forgets 52 other characters exist too for a tier list, than just ignore their list.

 

[Ulevo]

Let's put it this way for quite literally everyone in this thread.
If a tier list somebody makes doesn't have characters like DK Palutena Mii brawler and villager in top 3-15 it's most likely a customs off.

If a tier list has mii brawler in there randomly in like top 5/7 but forgets 52 other characters exist too for a tier list, than just ignore their list.

Yeah yeah. I just got thrown off by Marth and Lucina being so high up.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Yeah yeah. I just got thrown off by Marth and Lucina being so high up.

How do you think I felt when I saw Ike at like... 5th worst?

Man, when you say you don't care past B Tier, you reaaaaaaally didn't care much past B.

 

[FullMoon]

Greninja is higher in that list than I thought he would be.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I had a lot of trouble deciding on where to put Marth/Lucina, but I think there's untapped potential there. That said, if I put them in C Tier (as I initially planned to), the page would crash, due to having too many characters in a single tier.

I've always been of the mind that mobility is king in Smash Brothers (I mean, look at my top tiers). I don't see as many results as I'd expect from Greninja, but I think there's a whole lot of growing room.

 

[Appledees]

Surprised you place Megaman so high over Rosalina of all characters

any reason for that?

 

[Emblem Lord]

duhuhuhuh

Unless this is customs Marcina is not B tier.

 

[Scarlet Jile]

That Doctor Mario disrespect, haha. Jeez. The man gets his ph.D and drops 34 spots on the tier list.

 

[Ulevo]

That Doctor Mario disrespect, haha. Jeez. The man gets his ph.D and drops 34 spots on the tier list.

It's legit man. He was too busy with medical school so he couldn't go to tourneys.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

It's legit man. He was too busy with medical school so he couldn't go to tourneys.

Truth. Just getting my master's was a pain, my advisor practically begged me to stay for a PhD but I noped on out of there.

 

[warriorman222]

That Doctor Mario disrespect, haha. Jeez. The man gets his ph.D and drops 34 spots on the tier list.

For some reason his ph.D puts his running speed on the level of an old man. How much does that s*** weigh?

 

[Scarlet Jile]

For some reason his ph.D puts his running speed on the level of an old man. How much does that s*** weigh?

It's the crushing weight of his student loan debt.

 

[Cassio]

Kind of tangential, but Ive never thought of grouping



together as a group of characters but it kind of makes sense. The only other characters who Id toss into that group are and maybe

 

[Antonykun]

well shaya is going to be handing out the infractions soon enough.

anyways has there been any recent showings of ike? I would love to see such stuff

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Sitting in an office for so long will take it out of you. He just didn't stay in shape.

Surprised you place Megaman so high over Rosalina of all characters

any reason for that?

Rosalina has a lot of safe setups but also gets away with a lot because people aren't so familiar with when they can and cannot go in, what they can and cannot challenge, etc. Her design is pretty straightforward and doesn't seem to have a lot more to add to it (as it is, anyway). As people feel out the frame data and get better at punishing her recovery more reliably, I think she has nowhere to go but down to about where I put her.

Mega Man has a ridiculous amount of tools at his disposal that will continue to expand in general utility as people come to understand the optimal positioning for both. Never having to land on the ground due to Rush Coil regeneration means that he can air camp especially well, considering the coverage of U-Air/D-Air and his horizontal aerial mobility. I think he has the tools to handle most anyone, even if he struggles with specific rushdown (SHEIK). An underrated character with loads of potential.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

well shaya is going to be handing out the infractions soon enough.

anyways has there been any recent showings of ike? I would love to see such stuff

Video recorded stuff?

Not really. Still have the same issue where all of our best players are in regions that record little to nothing. San is heading to a few larger tournaments in the upcoming months, might get something that way. And of course EVO.

 

[warionumbah2]

Kind of tangential, but Ive never thought of grouping



together as a group of characters but it kind of makes sense. The only other characters who Id toss into that group are and maybe

Is it related to strong ground games by any chance?

 

[PK Gaming]

duhuhuhuh

Heh, I more or less agree with this. The amount of people who underrate Wario is maddening, and I don't think Ness is top 5. That said, I think Rosalina is certainly A-tier and Marthcina are a tad too high, but I can tell it's a list formed through your formative months of smash experience/observations.

Reaaaally starting to agree with Robin's placement as well; the more I use this character, the more I realize how bad he/she is, and it lines up with the Japanese tier list as well.

 

[Cassio]

Its almost hard to identify it in discrete terms, to some extent its intuitive. But I think Reflex hit on it a bit. Lots of mobility especially (inluding rolls, b moves, PP's, etc), strong frame data, solid grab game, burst movement.

Edit: In contrast characters like ZSS and Falcon are fast, but use more ranged spacing and their size to some extent limits their mobility. I think those two (maybe others) are kind of a parallel extension of something similar.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I may be overrating buffed Dancing Blade, but having such a solid, reliable neutral tool is a real game-changer, IMO. Stopping halfway leaves you at something like -2 frame advantage at middling percents with the opponent at a 45-degree angle. There's a lot to be had if people push it.

 

[Splash Damage]

Interesting Tierlist from Reflex, Marth/Lucy are placed a bitlotcloser and higher than I expected. Think I'll go finish finish mine, could help the discussion.

 

[Cassio]

Some groupings inspired by that list

Group A-1

Group A-1



Group B-1

(Group B-2)


Group C-1
(Group C-2 )

Eh, only group Im sure is exhaustive is group A. Group B-2 and C-2 Im not confident about. Random thought.

 

[Emblem Lord]

That still doesn't make them better than the Pits or Rosalina for that matter. The numbers just aren't there. The safety is not there.

 

[Antonykun]

chracters I can see easily getting higher on tier lists assuming no patches:
(not by much)

 

[Ffamran]

Comparing moves is one thing, calling a character a worse version of another is a totally different kettle of fish. Especially when the comparisons hold no water. I don't actually see that said about Falco much. Idk why you'd feel bad about him in that respect. Feeling bad about him because he's bad is fair enough but maining a bad character is different to maining an underrated one.

(For the record I don't actually think Falco is that bad, just wanted to get my point across)

Yes, but when it's things like saying Rosalina's Shooting Star Bit is a Falco laser, but better that just makes me feel sad. Functionally, yes it can be a Falco laser, but it's more like 64/Impact Blaster since the range is shorter and you fire once and deal with end lag and fire again while Falco can continually fire, but somewhat slowly.

So, you can compare say, Sheik and Greninja's Dtilt, but in the end they're still different tools that can be similar, but straight up saying Greninja's is better because he can get a Fair kill isn't the right way. Better is subjective since Sheik could Dtilt and string Fairs which would take longer to kill, but nonetheless, can kill or gimp.

A character can be undermined by having "worse versions" of several different characters' moves. That is really shallow way of looking at a character. What I'm getting at is that people have to look at the character as a whole; what their moves and attributes do for their game plan. It's why people cannot say Greninja is a worse Sheik. The only moves they "share" and can be somewhat compared is Uair and Up Smash. Everything else about them functions differently even if they function similarly like how their Bairs can be used to stage spike or combo, but tons if not everyone's Bair can stage spike and combo. Hell, Greninja's Bair might be more in line with Link's, but what does Link's Bair do to his game plan versus Greninja's? Even clones cannot be called a worse version of their original. Done right, you can't say Ryu and Ken or Marth and Roy are the same character and one of them is the worse character. Done wrong like Dark Pit and you end up with virtually the same character who is so minutely different, it doesn't even matter.