Character Competitive Impressions

[David Viran]

It would be perfect if it's range was a bit better.
Although, it is fast enough to make a sheik F-air unsafe on shield.

Any frame 8 oos option or lower can punish a sheik fair if in range.

 

[Nu~]

Any frame 8 oos option or lower can punish a sheik fair if in range.

Could have sworn it was safer than that.
Well, it's certainly the fastest OoS move. Comes out on frame 1.

 

[Luigi player]

Any frame 8 oos option or lower can punish a sheik fair if in range.

so you basically have to be almost frame perfekt... if you like usmash oos too early you're going to grab (hate the buffer system in smash4), if you upB oos too early you're just going to jump and do nothing.

there aren't too many usmashes that come out early enough and have their hitbox in front of them to hit sheik. (there's like diddy, the pits, ... anyone else?)
grab often misses because of not enough range, and then there's jump oos aerials. some might be fast enough, but then again, not really, since jumping often takes like 5+ frames and then you need a frame 3 aerial that hits far in front of you...


so basically sheiks fair is really safe

 

[PUK]

so you basically have to be almost frame perfekt... if you like usmash oos too early you're going to grab (hate the buffer system in smash4), if you upB oos too early you're just going to jump and do nothing.

there aren't too many usmashes that come out early enough and have their hitbox in front of them to hit sheik. (there's like diddy, the pits, ... anyone else?)
grab often misses because of not enough range, and then there's jump oos aerials. some might be fast enough, but then again, not really, since jumping often takes like 5+ frames and then you need a frame 3 aerial that hits far in front of you...

so basically sheiks fair is really safe

Charizrad has a very fast Usmash,

 

[Mario766]

If Sheik really has 8 frames of vulnerability when F-Airing a shield, it would make most of the cast OOS Jab worthwhile in terms of punishes. I've been trying to crunch numbers seeing what can and can't punish it but I always feel like I'm incorrect in my math.

 

[Ffamran]

Don't you have to take into account shield dropping and maybe jump squat frames? So, Captain Falcon could OOS Uair or he could jab instead, but then you have to factor in everything else including human input, reaction, and error. A Sheik could screw up and eat Fox's Up Smash after a failed Fair or that Fox could react too slowly or screw up and eat another Fair or Ftilt from Sheik.

 

[Luco]

If Sheik really has 8 frames of vulnerability when F-Airing a shield, it would make most of the cast OOS Jab worthwhile in terms of punishes. I've been trying to crunch numbers seeing what can and can't punish it but I always feel like I'm incorrect in my math.

I'm pretty sure a jab won't reach her if it's a spaced Fair unfortunately. :/

 

[meleebrawler]

If Sheik really has 8 frames of vulnerability when F-Airing a shield, it would make most of the cast OOS Jab worthwhile in terms of punishes. I've been trying to crunch numbers seeing what can and can't punish it but I always feel like I'm incorrect in my math.

It's not always a matter of timing if she spaces it right. What @ Luco said.

 

[Mario766]

You can drop shield frame 4 if you're hit on shield, you have to wait till frame 11 to shield drop if you're not hit in shield IIRC. If you try to do an aerial, you'll likely need a frame 2-3 aerial to punish after jump squat.

I'm not sure how much range Sheik's F-Air is, but that's a different conversation. A lot of moves are safe on block if spaced, but aren't safe if they aren't spaced. If she F-Airs your shield and isn't spaced, OoS Jab should work for the majority of the cast.

 

[meleebrawler]

Could have sworn it was safer than that.
Well, it's certainly the fastest OoS move. Comes out on frame 1.

Have you been experimenting with Power Pac-Jump as an OOS move still? I know you're having a lot of fun
with meteors, but...

 

[PUK]

If falco still had is F4 DA he would be able to punish it omg. Pls buff

 

[David Viran]

If Sheik really has 8 frames of vulnerability when F-Airing a shield, it would make most of the cast OOS Jab worthwhile in terms of punishes. I've been trying to crunch numbers seeing what can and can't punish it but I always feel like I'm incorrect in my math.

Only zss's jab and Macs oos can punish sheiks fair because they are frame 1 after sheild drop which also 7 frames.

 

[meleebrawler]

If falco still had is F4 DA he would be able to punish it omg. Pls buff

Or his old nair. Seriously everyone would be better with a sex kick who wouldn't want one amirite?

 

[B.A.M.]

its not just that guys it has to deal with spacing as to why its hard to punish.

check this vid out as it may help people understand. Also i think its much better to understand how to anti air fair. Im making a quick video on this; should be done by tomorrow.

 

[HeroMystic]

It still amazes me that people think Sheik's F-air is punishable when it's been on record multiple times that a perfectly spaced F-air is safe on shield.

Anyone can punish a poorly spaced F-air. That's why only top level Sheiks do well and not mediocre ones.

 

[Ffamran]

If falco still had is F4 DA he would be able to punish it omg. Pls buff

Or if his Dash Attack looked like it's slow... I really have no idea why it's frame 8 now. Nothing about it is abusive.

Or his old nair. Seriously everyone would be better with a sex kick who wouldn't want one amirite?

They could have replaced his Nair with his Melee/Brawl Bair if they really didn't want to make it look similar to Fox's which then again... Mario, Luigi, Dr. Mario, Link, Young Link, pre-Smash 4 Samus, technically Captain Falcon, Ganondorf, and Sheik. Should I also mention how Fox's Dash Attack is essentially his Nair?

Anyway, Sheik's Fair is like Marth's Fair in range, right? Except much less landing lag, less damage, but similar range and I think it auto-cancels, but low landing lag means nothing.

 

[Djent]

QA OOS is so good yet no one uses it. Its very frustrating to see every pikachu get trapped in their shield (at least every pikachu Ive seen). Pretty sure its because all of them turn tap jump off, but up-b out of shield is the best OOS option in the game I can think of and no ones utilizing it.

Tell them to set a shoulder button (probably R) to Jump. No need to compromise between EZmode UTilt and UpB OoS.

 

[Ikes]

His everything else is mediocre except his projectile game

in customs he's really strong though

tons of means to control neutral (bombs, boomerang, arrows and ESPECIALLY fire arrows), short fuse bombs give him an infinite recovery, his kill power is really good fair kills, bair kills, fsmash kills, usmash kills, dsmash kills, dair kills under some circumstances, uair spikes, b throw kills, he's got super good air mobility, he blocks many projectiles simply by facing them (this a bit more circumstantial and a smaller perk but i figured I'd mention it), he's got low endlag on his ground moves, fast tilts, dtilt trips opponents which gives a free grab and combos into other moves, forward tilt doesnt have the same commitment as fsmash, jab combo is a good spacing tool

The glaring issues I see with him is him being lighter and easier to kill, his grab easy to punish if whiffed, lower range than other characters with disjoints, and some of his arsenal being used against him, since bombs are pretty easy to catch.

I'm just having a hard time seeing how he's not at least B+ tier since a good handful of higher tiers have most of his same weaknesses (ZSS has the grab issue, diddy, luigi, Pikachu, and rosalina are light, luigis grab is easy to punish to a degree if whiffed, especially since he has a low grab range)

I mean I'm sure there are some issues I'm missing here and tell me if so but considering all of Tink's strengths, I just dont see how he isn't considered good or at least viable. Most people seem to shrug him off as mediocre or bad.

 

[Trifroze]

There are several aerials in the game that are safe on any shield and Sheik isn't any special in that regard, it's just that her fair has such amazing range and speed. If an aerial has 12 frames or less of landing lag it's most likely safe on shield no matter what and I know this because Falcon's first hit of nair is safe (4 damage, 12 frames of landing lag). Even ~20 frames of landing lag can be safe if it's a powerful enough move, although I don't know how many there are that fit this description. Ganondorf's fair is 17% / 23 frames and it's safe on shield on a lot of characters, and his bair is 17% / 20 and safe on most likely everyone.

 

[TriTails]

Or if his Dash Attack looked like it's slow... I really have no idea why it's frame 8 now. Nothing about it is abusive.

Well, nothing is abusive about Luigi's F4 DA yet it lags like a truck.

I'm not even sure why'd they keep it for whole freaking 4 games. It represent his character like ****, and is totally pointless to use in most situations. I mean, it acts just like a normal DA. Deals 8%, throws opponent away with high base knockback (But really low knockback growth), yet it has horrible end lag. I'd take Falco's F8 DA any day than Luigi's 'OMIGOSH FASTEST (Lel)' almost useless one.

diddy, luigi, Pikachu, and rosalina are light

Explanation. Now.

 

[Trifroze]

Well, nothing is abusive about Luigi's F4 DA yet it lags like a truck.

I'm not even sure why'd they keep it for whole freaking 4 games. It represent his character like ****, and is totally pointless to use in most situations. I mean, it acts just like a normal DA. Deals 8%, throws opponent away with high base knockback (But really low knockback growth), yet it has horrible end lag. I'd take Falco's F8 DA any day than Luigi's 'OMIGOSH FASTEST (Lel)' almost useless one.

You'll find useless moves from every character. Movesets aren't designed in a way that every move has utility, instead characters usually have their trademark bnb moves, some mandatory ones that get different jobs done and then their trademark terrible moves. Some movesets are more well-rounded than others but I'd say Luigi is pretty fortunate in that regard.

I mean, how many characters have a nearly objectively worse copy of Fox's up smash? It all comes down to the rest of the character's moveset and how they play overall.

 

[wedl!!]

is not a lightweight wtf hes like the same weight as

when namco made this game did they decide to make as ****ing obnoxious as possible or was it unintentional

 

[ParanoidDrone]

You'll find useless moves from every character. Movesets aren't designed in a way that every move has utility, instead characters usually have their trademark bnb moves, some mandatory ones that get different jobs done and then their trademark terrible moves. Some movesets are more well-rounded than others but I'd say Luigi is pretty fortunate in that regard.

I mean, how many characters have a nearly objectively worse copy of Fox's up smash? It all comes down to the rest of the character's moveset and how they play overall.

And then you have the oddballs like Rosalina and Olimar that just do their own thing and succeed (or fail) in spite of (or despite having) such unusual mechanics.

 

[Shaya]

Sheik's auto cancelled forward air is roughly minus 3 or 4 on shield.
Fast fall fair can be pressured/punished by a lot of the good characters.

But you ever noticed that single timing ZeRo has for it? The one that every top player the first time they come up against it get absolutely crushed by? Then the next time it's closer as there's 20 frames of telegraphing for that posture that they adept to?

 

[Ikes]

is not a lightweight wtf hes like the same weight as
when namco made this game did they decide to make as ****ing obnoxious as possible or was it unintentional

yeah whoops that was a mistake on my part

he's still pretty easy to catch in the air though cause his air mobility is only just good and he doesnt fall super fast

 

[Mr. Johan]

when namco made this game did they decide to make as ****ing obnoxious as possible or was it unintentional

As fate would have it

ND: Were there Smash Bros. or Nintendo-fans among the staff of Bandai Namco Games?

SM: Of course. People who love Nintendo, people who love the characters, people who aren't a fan of something specific but love games as a whole...it depends on the individual.

ND: Was there something you didn't ask for but got created because one of your staff was obsessed with it?

MS: There are several cases of this. For example, Sheik's movement is completely different to Brawl, someone made a proposal to me for those motions.

From the December issue of Nintendo Dream.

So yeah, totally on the devs on that one.

 

[meleebrawler]

Well, nothing is abusive about Luigi's F4 DA yet it lags like a truck.

I'm not even sure why'd they keep it for whole freaking 4 games. It represent his character like ****, and is totally pointless to use in most situations. I mean, it acts just like a normal DA. Deals 8%, throws opponent away with high base knockback (But really low knockback growth), yet it has horrible end lag. I'd take Falco's F8 DA any day than Luigi's 'OMIGOSH FASTEST (Lel)' almost useless one.


Explanation. Now.

Well those fists of fury appeared in Mario Sports Mix along with Green Missile so they're not just Smash moves anymore.
Plus it's not like they just let it be through the years, it got progressively better in every game (just as Luigi, well... Luigified).

In 64 it was utter ****. One weak hit that anybody could punish if they weren't sleeping.
In Melee it became multihit and did more damage, requiring better shield discipline. Still punishable on hit, though.
In Brawl it got a stronger finishing hit that made it less punishable on hit.
And now it links properly so you'll never be punished for landing it.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

As fate would have it



From the December issue of Nintendo Dream.

So yeah, totally on the devs on that one.

It actually sounds like they're talking about her animations, which I have to admit are a) quite different from Brawl/Melee and b) very awesome looking. The way she flips around and stuff while jumping is really fun. (Although I expect it'll wear off eventually.)

 

[Nobie]

Re: Why Luigi is top tier when dedicated zoners exploit his weaknesses tremendously, I think it's just that the meta has shaped up so that the ones who hurt Luigi the most (Mega Man) aren't high enough in terms of player numbers. If there were literally dozens of Mega Men you had to wade through to get anywhere, Luigi probably wouldn't be doing as hot, but that's not what the landscape is, for whatever reason.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Sheik does a number on Luigi, though, from what I hear.

 

[TheZyzyva]

Man, keeping up with this thread is a full time job sometimes, miss a couple days and its all up-hill from there!

Somethin I wanted to say, from a few pages back, IMO an honest character is one that you feel comes down to player skill more than some kind of shenanigans, you feel outplayed when you lose. Dishonest is the opposite, losing can often feel like getting cheated. In smash there really arent that many totally honest characters, most everyone has some kind of jank they can bust out, from super safe aerials, absurd grab follows, to outright 'dumb' moves. And a lot of the time players can play dishonest fighters honestly, so to me the whole idea is mostly moot. (In case anyone is wondering, Id call Mario, Kirby, and the Pits all very honest, not a total list tho)

Moving on, while tier lists themselves arent super important or even entirely helpful right now, I think the discussion they promote is. I find all this Luigi talk really interesting, especially when I joined this thread people were arguing that it was ludicrous to leave him OUT of the top 10, now Im reading about how hes definitely top 15 but not 10.

In regards to Zero, hes certainly entitled to his opinion, but I feel like he is starting to get a little arrogant. He is by far the best player but his own experiences are clouding his objectivity a lil too much now. As everyone aptly put it, Mr.CC got to his head. Problem being people are going to take what he says and spout it as fact when clearer heads come to a much different conclusion.

Final note, I try to watch as many streams as I can, and it still appalls me that commentators dont know some basic Sm4sh stuff. Things like being able to jump out of PK fire, or the difference between basic grenade and grav grenade. Who is letting these people represent Sm4sh? Its one thing to not know but I mostly see them spreading false information, and thats whats really damaging.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Man, keeping up with this thread is a full time job sometimes, miss a couple days and its all up-hill from there!

Somethin I wanted to say, from a few pages back, IMO an honest character is one that you feel comes down to player skill more than some kind of shenanigans, you feel outplayed when you lose. Dishonest is the opposite, losing can often feel like getting cheated. In smash there really arent that many totally honest characters, most everyone has some kind of jank they can bust out, from super safe aerials, absurd grab follows, to outright 'dumb' moves. And a lot of the time players can play dishonest fighters honestly, so to me the whole idea is mostly moot. (In case anyone is wondering, Id call Mario, Kirby, and the Pits all very honest, not a total list tho)

Moving on, while tier lists themselves arent super important or even entirely helpful right now, I think the discussion they promote is. I find all this Luigi talk really interesting, especially when I joined this thread people were arguing that it was ludicrous to leave him OUT of the top 10, now Im reading about how hes definitely top 15 but not 10.

In regards to Zero, hes certainly entitled to his opinion, but I feel like he is starting to get a little arrogant. He is by far the best player but his own experiences are clouding his objectivity a lil too much now. As everyone aptly put it, Mr.CC got to his head. Problem being people are going to take what he says and spout it as fact when clearer heads come to a much different conclusion.

Final note, I try to watch as many streams as I can, and it still appalls me that commentators dont know some basic Sm4sh stuff. Things like being able to jump out of PK fire, or the difference between basic grenade and grav grenade. Who is letting these people represent Sm4sh? Its one thing to not know but I mostly see them spreading false information, and thats whats really damaging.

Shockwave and Xanadu, at least, seem to be pretty good about not spouting blatantly wrong information. Worst thing I saw lately was the Xanadu commentators being surprised that G&W can bucket Shooting Star Bit and wondering out loud if default Star Bits could also be bucketed. (Spoilers: They can't.)

 

[Cassio]

The threatening thing about sheik fair isnt necessarily its strength on shield itself. Its that against a grounded opponent it will

1) Beat almost every ground to air option
2) Comes out frame 5
3) Has very little end lag

Its speed and strength against other non-shield options force you to anticipate the move since they can toss it out even right before they hit the ground. So sheiks jump (not because they want to, but because no one else will) and when you shield they can just react and grab after they land.

This is also why I've stated multiple times recently that an aggressive forward roll may be the (not necessarily only) answer for some characters (rather, it provides them a good option). Particularly if its a good roll with a good option afterwards. Sheik jumps, the opponent forward rolls, sheiks only real options are to jump away, bair, or do nothing. Bair is a mediocre-weak air to ground option since it attacks upwards so if she gets crossed up in this way she's really in a poor position. Ive been watching lately how sheiks deal with cross-up rolls lately, though they arent specifically trying to punish it it seems that generally they dont (even though the opponent tends not to capitalize on it afterwards either since its usually done out of pressure).

Is it invincible on start-up? What are its interesting properties?

Nothing special like that aside from adding the simple 2+2 of QA + OOS option. Its just the fact that no ones doing it. Though certainly at close range moves like nair (7 frames)/bair (8 frames) are better.

A) Quick Attacks hitbox is active from frame 15 until ~20. Meaning if an attacks cooldown is within that range (depending on distance) its punishable on shield by quick attack.

B) Quick Attack typically beats rolling, spot dodge, and other mobile options as well. So for moves that are just barely unpunishable by QA OOS the opponent ends up in a situation where they either have to shield or use a very fast attack (if they have one) for moves that are otherwise safer (allowing mix-ups on pikas part).

Those two things cover a very large portion of moves in the game.

I think at the very least it should provide pika a great option to reset to neutral, which is why it makes me squirm when I see pikas get trapped in their shield and never attempt this.

Its also why pikachu is able to negate commitment. While the move isnt instantaneous, he is able to QA in any jumping/jump-cancellable situation (and works alongside his other attributes like his small frame, outstanding rolls/spotdodge/airdodge, etc.)

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Forward roll...

whatever happened to walking backwards...

 

[bc1910]

^Walking is the future lmao, look at ConCon he's all about his microspacing. Walking and crawling backwards are both excellent ways to space.

Totally agree with @ Cassio about Pika's Up B OoS. I feel like I'm the only person east of New York who uses that move OoS. But no-one in the US gives a **** about the UK scene so it goes totally unnoticed.

I respect Pac-mains a ton, they're in literally the same boat as Greninja mains where people think their character sucks though in reality there's just a massive lack of understanding about their character. But I'd like to point out that trampoline is not a stellar OoS option, you get 7% free damage in some cases but literally no follow-ups whatsoever and you can be punished on hit by people who know what the're doing. Let's not get carried away.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

The frame data on Wario D-Tilt is absurdly good (hits frame 5, IASA 18). It is -11 on shield, but Wario's hand isn't a grabbable hurtbox, so it's almost entirely safe on shield when decently spaced against non-tethers, and that's assuming they react to it immediately. It's Pikachu/Meta Knight D-Tilt levels of safe.

It has two hitboxes with the same power/knockback; one on his glove and one on his finger. The glove hit sends more outward and the finger hit sends more upward. The finger hit gives slightly better for frame advantage but the glove hitbox has priority if they're in range of both, and it's obviously hard to space so well every time. Thankfully, all that really means is that the second hit of D-Tilt -> D-Tilt will combo just as well as the first one even if it's slightly stale from just being used immediately before.

Because the knockback is relatively low, it doesn't send opponents into tumble until absurdly high percents. That means opponents never go into tumble, which means that Wario D-Tilt is un-DI-able.

Wario D-Tilt's frame advantage is significantly affected by Rage, but the following numbers all assume 0% Rage on Wario with the glove hitbox:

When the opponent is at 0%, it has +1 frame advantage at worst on the whole cast.

D-Tilt has +5 frame advantage against most characters at 40-50%, which allows it to true combo into itself, Dash Attack, and Half Waft (the last one with prior momentum via a run turnaround or being very close to the opponent before D-Tilting).

D-Tilt has +8 frame advantage against most characters at ~80%, which allows it to true combo into Jab, Dash Grab, Neutral-B and D-Smash (the last two with prior momentum via a run turnaround or being very close to the opponent before D-Tilting).

This move is quite possibly the best low-risk hit confirming tilt in the game.

 

[Antonykun]

back to Swordfighter, I believe that N-air should be used to augment his ground spacing due to the moves relative low endlag.

 

[webbedspace]

Shockwave and Xanadu, at least, seem to be pretty good about not spouting blatantly wrong information. Worst thing I saw lately was the Xanadu commentators being surprised that G&W can bucket Shooting Star Bit and wondering out loud if default Star Bits could also be bucketed. (Spoilers: They can't.)

To this day commentators keep repeating that Lightweight lowers Palutena's weight (it does not - it increases damage% received by 1.1x) and that Shulk's Shield Art cuts his KO power (it does not - only damage% dealt is reduced. His KO moves remain as lethal as usual).

 

[ParanoidDrone]

To this day commentators keep repeating that Lightweight lowers Palutena's weight (it does not - it increases damage% received by 1.1x) and that Shulk's Shield Art cuts his KO power (it does not - only damage% dealt is reduced. His KO moves remain as lethal as usual).

Technically knockback scales with damage dealt (and presumably received) so they're not completely wrong. I think.

 

[Antonykun]

To this day commentators keep repeating that Lightweight lowers Palutena's weight (it does not - it increases damage% received by 1.1x) and that Shulk's Shield Art cuts his KO power (it does not - only damage% dealt is reduced. His KO moves remain as lethal as usual).

I thought the ko formula factored damage?
guess the monado bypasses it?