Nice to see people talk about froggy for once. And yes, I also think Greninja beats Luigi. One of the best players in the UK (Jmiller, there was an article on reddit featuring an interview with him recently) mains Luigi, we haven't played much but last time we did I went around even with him. Perhaps a little worse but no worse than a 45% win rate for me. And Jmiller is great, almost certainly a better player than me. So that's why I believe Greninja beats Luigi, he should win on paper and I have similar results in practice.
And yeah, people REALLY need to stop just watching Luigi recover! Nado is great especially if you can use it like ConCon but he can't ledgesnap with it and there's significant ending lag. His recovery is certainly gimpable.
Obviously ZeRo has earned the right to believe in his own opinions very strongly and I respect him for putting it out there. But I still don't agree with him about Luigi being a top 5 character. I don't think he is considering the character's massive flaws that plenty of characters outside his own top 8 can abuse. Luigi is a bit anti-meta in the sense that he does very well against the best characters in the game, but he does not steamroll everyone below him.
Also Luigi's fireballs might be positive on shield near max range but he cannot trap you in your shield, shield drop animation is so quick you can always drop shield and jab. Fireballs are amazing, but I really don't think they're as good as ZeRo makes out. I still think ConCon gave him nightmares that skewed his opinion on fireballs haha.
help
I agree with Fox and Luma though, while Sonic is average. Also Greninja's moves are weak both in terms of damage and knockback compared to how slow his frame data is. He's fundamentally like a combination of Falcon and Sheik without any of their strengths except recovery (looking at Sheik here obv).
This is customs I'm talking about tho
HSB Fsmash and Thunder doesn't kill hard or something?
I will agree with you on Greninja tho, the ******* child of two better characters.
I guess I'll address both these posts and say I thought we'd long abandoned the "Greninja is Sheik but worse" myth. I play both characters. They have similar mobility (Greninja's is better), and good projectiles for forcing approaches (Sheik's is better) but that's really it. There are a bunch of similarities between them that I believe are coincidental such as both of them having powerful sweetspot Usmashes, Uair drill kicks, stall-then-fall Dairs etc but these just... don't matter. Sheik is "the queen of obnoxious safety", a fast-but-weak combo machine who pressures, throws out hitboxes and annoys you to death. If you try to play Greninja like that then yes, you've got a worse Sheik. But that's not his optimal playstyle, which is why the comparison baffles me. Greninja has strengths over Sheik that he should work into his optimal playstyle to set them apart. He has better mobility, better midrange (leads to the Falcon comparison which I will touch on later), better damage per hit, better kill potential, and IMO better edgeguarding and
probably harder punishes.
Here would probably be a good time to say Greninja's damage per hit is not bad at all. His overall frame data blows, I grant you; it's undoubtedly his biggest weakness. His damage per hit is fine though. 14% 16f Fair, 11% 12f Nair, 9% 7f Uair, 9% 5f Bair, 7% 5f Dtilt, freakin' 19% 12f Usmash sweetspot (and for a "sweetspot" it's easy to hit with). He doesn't have weak attacks. Also a bunch of his two-hit combos deal huge amounts of damage, any combo into Fair will deal over 20% damage and a lot of moves combo into it.
But yeah, honestly if Sheik and Greninja weren't both, y'know, ninjas, I doubt people would ever have drawn this comparison. Actually if Sheik keeps getting nerfed and Greninja ends up better will people start saying Sheik is a worse version of Greninja?
The Falcon comparison is interesting because I've been thinking that Greninja's midrange is a bit like Falcon's, in that they both have good dash attacks and excellent dash grabs (their DGs are both top 5 in the game IMO) which lead to high damage true combos. Falcon's better at "Falconing" in this way but Greninja is better at it than most. And like, MK does a lot of "Falconing" and people don't say he's a worse version of Falcon so whatever. Aside from similarities in their mid-range Greninja is literally nothing like Falcon, fundamentally or otherwise, I shouldn't need to explain that.
So yeah, IMO it's not fair to say Greninja is a Sheik/Falcon ******* child when he plays very little like either.
@
Z'zgashi Greninja might be a little high on your list for the current meta but I totally agree about his potential. He is a very hard character to use now, but I think you get a LOT out of the time you put into that character. His edgeguarding in particular is criminally underrated, I honestly think it could get to the point where he's considered one of the best edgeguarders in the game. And yes, there are plenty of other "hidden potential" characters who could end up above him like Peach or ROB, but I think Greninja's mobility gives him an edge over most because there's just so much you can do with a mobile character. We will see, though. Whining about it on Smashboards isn't gonna change public perception of Greninja, we need someone to really go ham and get some results with him. And in a Luigi-infested meta where Sonic usage is dropping, Greninja really should be able to shine.
EDIT: @
TheReflexWonder
I'm not saying you're wrong but that literally applies to soooooo many characters. There are hundreds of situations in a normal match when you could be thinking "I wish I was Sheik right now" no matter who you're using. Greninja isn't a special case here, he doesn't deserve to be labelled as one.
take any big tournaments till like several months from now since there's so much tech skill and precision required to play 
