DunnoBro
The Free-est
That applies to more charcters than just wario, though.
I think he's about as good as he was in brawl, it's just he doesn't have to deal with character-invalidating situations.
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Character Competitive Impressions
- Thread starter Shaya
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I think he's about as good as he was in brawl, it's just he doesn't have to deal with character-invalidating situations.
Trifroze
all is cheese, all is jank
I wonder what was the reason behind giving basically every character laggier aerials and removing at least one autocancel from almost everybody. Falcon lost 2 and Knee's landing lag got increased by almost 50%. Meanwhile:
PUK
Smash Ace
Sakurai doesn't need reasons
GeneralLedge
Smash Journeyman
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Reason: Some players can do it consistently, but others can't.
Solution: Remove it.
Solution: Remove it.
Cassio
Smash Master
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Zero and Abadango both release tier lists. Unfortunately Abadangos site is down, it should be here though once it works:
http://abadango.com/ssb4-tier-list-ver-1-07/
Unfortunate since it was relevant to the wario discussion, but I believe he had wario at the end of A (top 10 or so). I remember finding it interesting his first four tiers were A+ A B+ B (consisting of more then half the cast), before moving onto C and D and notably excluding S. Seems to really believe in a wide variety of character viability.
Zero's only released his top tier, which is here:
I highly recommend you watch the video if you want to discuss his placements, but the tl;dw list of his top tier is
http://abadango.com/ssb4-tier-list-ver-1-07/
Unfortunate since it was relevant to the wario discussion, but I believe he had wario at the end of A (top 10 or so). I remember finding it interesting his first four tiers were A+ A B+ B (consisting of more then half the cast), before moving onto C and D and notably excluding S. Seems to really believe in a wide variety of character viability.
Zero's only released his top tier, which is here:
thehard
Smash Lord
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https://twitter.com/Abadangowario/status/600972140813365250
Please note that, if Google Translate is to be believed, he didn't care too much about low tier placement.
Please note that, if Google Translate is to be believed, he didn't care too much about low tier placement.
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LostinpinK
Smash Apprentice
I like Zero's top tier ranking. And I think Abandango's is really, really terrible. I even like smashboard's voted better. It might be that the japanese metagame is much different, but jeez... Pika below G&W is probably the most shocking thing I've seen in a while.
wedl!!
Goddess of Storms
i know nothing about the character but let me ask; what actually makes a high-tier character? why is so low?
a high-tier character? why is so low?
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Note that Japan has a different meta. There's like no Pika reps there I believe.
ParanoidDrone
Smash Master
What's the distinction between A/A+ and B/B+?
Not going to bother debating the tier placements of specific characters.
Not going to bother debating the tier placements of specific characters.
Nu~
Smash Dreamer
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Mario in top 5 with customs off? Yeah...https://twitter.com/Abadangowario/status/600972140813365250
Please note that, if Google Translate is to be believed, he didn't care too much about low tier placement.
No. And LOL at non customs duck hunt.
He must REALLY respect Brood.
kackamee
Smash Master
mimgrim
Smash Hero
I believe Amsa said he would be switching to Pikachu for Evo because of customs. But that was a while back.
Luco
Smash Hero
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- dracilus
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I remember this was like Brawl. The same thing applied to Pika where Japan didn't have any notable reps. In their tier list, Pika was two spots above Lucas, who was mid tier.
Djent
Smash Champion
Japan doesn't even rank high enough based on their own character representation. Their thought process is consistently muddled WRT the rat.
(Seriously, you'd think Haase in Brawl & Hinata/Ayame this time 'round would have swayed their opinions a little bit, but nope.)
high enough based on their own character representation. Their thought process is consistently muddled WRT the rat.(Seriously, you'd think Haase in Brawl & Hinata/Ayame this time 'round would have swayed their opinions a little bit, but nope.)
Cassio
Smash Master
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I used to joke about this with Larry, by the time patching is done pikachu will be the most broken irrelevant character.Sweet, still D Tier on Japan's list after the balance patch. More buffs next patch?
Ffamran
The Smooth Devil Mod
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If you fought a really competent player of whatever character and you kept losing or getting pushed to the edge, then I bet you'd think that character is really good and whether they are or not, it's up to the MU discussion. The opposite can happen too. So, Skillager happens to have a really competent Falco player in his scene, Gamegenie, and Gamegenie pushes Skillager's Villager a lot which leads to Skillager feeling that Falco is a tough MU for Falco. The opposite is with Dabuz who doesn't have a competent Falco player in his scene, so Falco is probably nothing for his Rosalina, Olimar, and Sonic - he plays Sonic, right?
If Abadango fought an "ESAM", I bet he'd place Pikachu much higher, but guess what? There's probably no notable Pikachu at that level in Japan and if there is, that Pikachu might be in a different region in Japan. That Pikachu might even think Pac-Man is low tier if there wasn't any notable Pac-Man player in their scene.
Player skill can skew things. I mean, with Ally, people felt that Mario was much better than he is, but it's just Ally. Ally could play anyone else and there could potentially be an inflation of what a character is. As for the low tier placements and not caring, it's still influenced by past games. Look at who's bottom tier: Ganondorf, Samus, Link, and Zelda, characters "traditionally" at the bottom and will stay at the bottom despite numerous amounts of evidence because it's tradition. It's a sentiment and a rut they can't get out of. Or look at Dark Pit. Come on? Really? Even without tippers on Bair and Ftilt, a Neutral Special that does more damage, but has less control, and having a Side Special that sends people at a different angle, he's virtually the same character as Pit. Lucina at least functions slightly different than Marth by not having tippers on all of her moves. Personally, I think Dark Pit and Pit should share one spot - literally Photoshop their portraits together and call it a day.
A lot of it is the environment around him; Wario got screwed by a lot in Brawl, such as chaingrabs, grab-release stuff, ledge invincibility abuse...His ground game, outside of F-Smash and grabs, was virtually non-existent, too, which was difficult to work with at high levels of play.
Smash 4 gave him a lot of great new ground tools (D-Tilt, U-Smash, D-Smash), vastly improved special moves (Bike is easily one of the best projectiles in the game, riding it or not; Neutral-B gained mobility and lost a ton of endlag; Full Waft deals more knockback), a nice set of aerials (F-Air, B-Air, and D-Air are all stronger, with the first two autocanceling the same way), he is among the best for punishing people around the ledge with the new ledge mechanics, the new airdodge is arguably better for him and much worse for his opponents. Wario finds it easier to camp for Waft and to land those Wafts against the cast. The environment caters to him a whole lot.
Ulevo
Smash Master
Lucario has the potential to be low high tier at best, at least in vanilla. He is likely near high-mid. His neutral game is average and he suffers a great deal from rush down and zone breakers like Captain Falcon and Sheik. He lacks proper representation though. The best Lucario I have seen is June Bug and I feel he still fails to take advantage of everything the character has to offer. After June, no one really comes close so his rep is pretty poor.i know nothing about the character but let me ask; what actually makes
Does anyone know if there are any good Lucario reps in Japan?
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FullMoon
i'm just joking with you
Abadango is the first person I see that has that much faith on G&W
Mario, Falcon, Pikachu and Ness's placement tho.
Mario, Falcon, Pikachu and Ness's placement tho.
GeneralLedge
Smash Journeyman
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I can't help but question the viability of a 1-dimensional tier list... in general, when the results are as strange as some of these. The questions on my mind are, "Who was this made for?", and "What do these suggestions inspire, if anything?"
Asking these questions on the Reddit topic got me a handful of downvotes with no responses, so I can only assume these questions aren't worth asking.
Asking these questions on the Reddit topic got me a handful of downvotes with no responses, so I can only assume these questions aren't worth asking.
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Trifroze
all is cheese, all is jank
Lucario's neutral after around 100% becomes very good. He is also among the hardest if not the hardest character in the game to kill because he's fairly heavy and has good range (especially on nair and grab), amazing recovery, good mobility and very low landing lag aerials that are safe especially at higher percents. He also has safe kill setups and strong edgeguard options and only really gets destroyed in neutral at lower percents. If you can't force him into a bad airdodge or you fail to read his recovery, Falcon (let alone Sheik) commonly won't kill him before 120%. The way Lucario works is that he has terrible neutral at low percents, gets destroyed without much risk of dying, gains the upper hand through aura and then brings the stock into a last hit scenario where he has good tools.
Firefoxx
Smash Journeyman
The biggest takeaway I got from ZeRo's tier list video is that, despite what he may tweet, he is legit worried about Dabuz w/customs on. And also his entire tier list seems to center on how good/bad characters are against Diddy, but that's not super shocking.
Smooth Criminal
Da Cheef
On Ganon: That's more like it.https://twitter.com/Abadangowario/status/600972140813365250
Please note that, if Google Translate is to be believed, he didn't care too much about low tier placement.
On D3: No.
Zard and DK are arguably better. Put DK and Zard somewhere in D and put D3 where DK is. Boom.
Smooth Criminal
AlMoStLeGeNdArY
Smash Hero
In smash 4 the transition for Wario hasn't been a good one. First dair having landing lag. This moves goes from being a great pressure tool on shields to being almost useless. Was also a combo starter at low percentages. Was a great offensive weapon.
Then there's the changes to his bike. He can no longer break the bike for tires. A huge nerf IMO. He ised to get so much from tires it was ridiculous.
The system changes hasn't been good to him. He lost DACUS which greatly changed his ground speed . He also had follow ups from bite. Then there's the AD into the ground nerf that hurts his run away game. He also lost some CG and GR set ups. Yeah not being GR helps but he still lost stiff here.
I believe that his nair and uair are also worse in this game. His nair and uair could both be used as combo starters and uair could be used as a finisher. The change to fsmash hurts a lot also.
Then this isn't really a nerf but a personal pet peeve but I really dislikethe life hain gimmick from bite.
Zionaze
Smash Ace
Why dont u enjoy that extra 1%?
ZarroTsu
Smash Journeyman
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Abad's and ZeRo's tier lists got me thinking, and I have a deep concern regarding tier lists as a one-dimensional statement that x character is better than y character because z. Especially when you include customs.
Fact of the matter is, there are more factors than individual character when it comes to winning. There are stage factors. Match-up factors. Custom move factors. If we're judging tiers by location (japan vs us), then those are factors as well. Things get a little ridiculous when you factor in the players themselves, as well.
How many individual tier lists per player do we need? Is this information useful, that ZeRo thinks Pikachu is 4th, but Abadango thinks he's 24th? To whom and why is this useful?
And another thought that came to mind. On a customs-on tier list, where does Mii Brawler fall... in relation to a Mii Brawler with a different set of moves? Are they the same character when all four B moves are different? Why/not? Is this information not more useful than ignoring where 1111 Brawler goes because, for example, 2122 is superior? Why/not in relation between 1132 and 2122? Is one superior? Inferior?
We have a drive for customs, and that's great. But is any one set on any character superior enough to invalidate all the other sets? I don't think so. Then why are the others ignored in a one dimensional environment? To conserve space? Because it's unimportant? But in either case, what's the point of a one-dimensional tier list explaining that "Pikachu" is better than "Mario" in a customs-on environment... When someone who runs different sets than normal might adamantly explain otherwise? Are they ignored? Is this only averaged between statements?
And all this is far and away beyond general understanding. So let's rewind a bit, then.
On a one-dimensional tier list, is Luigi, specifically when played on Final Destination, better or worse than DK, specifically when played on Battle Field?
Fact of the matter is, there are more factors than individual character when it comes to winning. There are stage factors. Match-up factors. Custom move factors. If we're judging tiers by location (japan vs us), then those are factors as well. Things get a little ridiculous when you factor in the players themselves, as well.
How many individual tier lists per player do we need? Is this information useful, that ZeRo thinks Pikachu is 4th, but Abadango thinks he's 24th? To whom and why is this useful?
And another thought that came to mind. On a customs-on tier list, where does Mii Brawler fall... in relation to a Mii Brawler with a different set of moves? Are they the same character when all four B moves are different? Why/not? Is this information not more useful than ignoring where 1111 Brawler goes because, for example, 2122 is superior? Why/not in relation between 1132 and 2122? Is one superior? Inferior?
We have a drive for customs, and that's great. But is any one set on any character superior enough to invalidate all the other sets? I don't think so. Then why are the others ignored in a one dimensional environment? To conserve space? Because it's unimportant? But in either case, what's the point of a one-dimensional tier list explaining that "Pikachu" is better than "Mario" in a customs-on environment... When someone who runs different sets than normal might adamantly explain otherwise? Are they ignored? Is this only averaged between statements?
And all this is far and away beyond general understanding. So let's rewind a bit, then.
On a one-dimensional tier list, is Luigi, specifically when played on Final Destination, better or worse than DK, specifically when played on Battle Field?
Ulevo
Smash Master
Lucario's neutral is never 'good' versus Captain Falcon. His neutral never changes based on % excluding the distance on the Force Palm laser which is never safe on shield against Captain Falcon. Within a certain range Lucario cannot use aerials out of a short hop because he will lose to dash attack and in some instances dash grab. He is difficult to kill without a good read but Lucario cannot reliably kill Captain Falcon either due to his weight and fall speed ruining his guaranteed kill confirm. This match up is very stage dependent and if he does not get the stage he needs then Lucario struggles.
Tier lists should ideally be based on match up spreads the way they are in traditional fighters. The issue with that is that Smash is a very dynamic game and because of all the elements present it is much harder to discern whether or not a character has a 5:5 match up or a 6:4 match up. This leaves us with incomplete information and varying interpretations on how match ups are across characters and the cast.
It should be obvious we need two separate tier lists for custom and vanilla meta games. It should also be obvious that actual tier lists should be based on the consensus of as many high profile players as possible.
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ZarroTsu
Smash Journeyman
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I propose we try to push for a second dimension on the tier list. The slowest start would be stages, since the stage list is rather small.
Best example is Little Mac. Is he low tier because of stage counterpicking? Or because of his tools being bad for aerial approaches? But, doesn't Battle Field and Lylat have platforms he can utilize, in a way? (And is his air game really that bad when he can foot-stool-to-nair-to-foot-stool over and over into an UpB? Yikes!)
But honestly, I still don't know what stages Mac is good on. Do people care? Of course! But why isn't there some sort of chart to reflect that? A list, if you will. And then what of all the other characters? Is the "tier list" exactly the same between Final Destination and Town & City?
EDIT: To clarify, something more like this:
Best example is Little Mac. Is he low tier because of stage counterpicking? Or because of his tools being bad for aerial approaches? But, doesn't Battle Field and Lylat have platforms he can utilize, in a way? (And is his air game really that bad when he can foot-stool-to-nair-to-foot-stool over and over into an UpB? Yikes!)
But honestly, I still don't know what stages Mac is good on. Do people care? Of course! But why isn't there some sort of chart to reflect that? A list, if you will. And then what of all the other characters? Is the "tier list" exactly the same between Final Destination and Town & City?
EDIT: To clarify, something more like this:
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Trifroze
all is cheese, all is jank
Lucario's neutral changes directly with his aura because of the extra damage (and therefore shield pushback) and the increasing threat he poses. I don't see how Lucario not being able to use shorthop aerials at a certain range is notable, they have less lag than Falcon's overall and their dash attacks are the same speed. If anyone in the game even could completely safely do that it'd be Lucario along with the likes of Falcon, Sheik, ZSS and Mario. ASC to usmash works on Falcon unless you're talking about a different confirm.
Deathcarter
Smash Lord
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Sorry but Dark Pit being a whole tier below regular Pit is a giant red flag for me not to take the tier list seriously.https://twitter.com/Abadangowario/status/600972140813365250
Please note that, if Google Translate is to be believed, he didn't care too much about low tier placement.
ParanoidDrone
Smash Master
Theoretically, a tier list would be based on aggregate data that makes a few assumptions, namely that:
Both players are at an equal and reasonably high level of skill.
Both players are using the optimal set of customs as currently perceived at the time of the list's creation.
So Mii Brawler's placement would, ideally, be done by comparing his average matchup ratio (or some similar metric) where each individual matchup assumes he's using the best custom set for the character in question. (And that the other character is using their best custom set for dealing with Mii Brawler.) So a tier list can't really address whether custom set XXXX is better or worse than YYYY in general. You can pit them against each other in the mirror but that only tells you which set can beat the other in a fight, not which is "better" in general against the rest of the cast.
I'm not entirely sure how stages best factor into this. On a matchup basis, it's probably best to assume whatever stage ends up being struck to (so that depends on the ruleset and stage list), but there's also room for counterpicks. To address your specific question, I don't think it's really possible for a tier list as we currently make them to actually answer the question "Is Luigi on FD better or worse than DK on Battlefield." (For starters there's no way that fight can even happen.)
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Ulevo
Smash Master
The shield push back on the important moves in neutral is negligible. The moves with notable push back, like back air and forward smash, are not going to be your safe go to tools. You cannot equate their aerial speed because Falcon's are far more useful in more situations. The hitbox on neutral air for Lucario is average at best and down air is a situational move. Neutral air, being his primary go to aerial on the ground, loses to a lot of Falcon's options. The fact that their dash attack speeds are the same is sort of irrelevant when you consider how fast Falcon runs and the enormous hitbox size on dash attack when compared to Lucario's.
Fact is that Lucario is always in a 50/50 mix up in neutral against Captain Falcon between dash attack and dash grab, both of which will trump most of Lucario's options depending on which one he uses. Again, this does not change with Aura. The only thing that changes is that when the Falcon screws up, Lucario might be able to get a bigger punish or possibly a stock if the read is hard enough. The only thing that is really salvageable about this match up is that Lucario does really well at edge guarding Falcon, but the neutral is not Lucario's strength in any way.
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ZarroTsu
Smash Journeyman
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Well, it's intentionally outside the scope of the tier list in theory, but if we're generalizing, the current tier list suggests "doesn't matter" in both scenarios, since supposedly no matter what Luigi is better than DK. Tier list says so.
I suppose more importantly, the ultimate answer to all my previous questions, would be break-downs. Obviously much outside the scope of technical work, such as specific Matchups and/or specific customs, but since we do have a tier list as a generalization, can't we branch out to secondary pieces of information, and slowly try to collect information more interesting/valuable than simply "Sheik is S tier, Zelda is E tier".
So we have character tiers all in a line. But how does that line twist and bend when presented with specific stages, in an X/Y chart? Is Charizard equally as bad on Delphino as he (supposedly!) is on Lylat?
I speculate nobody ever wanted to make a poll since it would be too much work to do, but in a format similar to those that @
LiteralGrill
made, would it be difficult to separate tier lists by stages, one or two per page? Is this information people would be willing to fill out, or is it irrelevant/too much work? Or does it make people think too much, about whether or not Pikachu is better on Smashville than Luigi, or Game and Watch, versus those same comparisons on Delphino?
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LiteralGrill
Smokin' Hot~
Firefoxx
Smash Journeyman
I mean, this idea is possible in Smash 64 since there are only two stages and stage selection really only affects 2 characters noticeably (Fox is better on Hyrule Castle, Falcon is better on Dreamland).Well, it's intentionally outside the scope of the tier list in theory, but if we're generalizing, the current tier list suggests "doesn't matter" in both scenarios, since supposedly no matter what Luigi is better than DK. Tier list says so.
I suppose more importantly, the ultimate answer to all my previous questions, would be break-downs. Obviously much outside the scope of technical work, such as specific Matchups and/or specific customs, but since we do have a tier list as a generalization, can't we branch out to secondary pieces of information, and slowly try to collect information more interesting/valuable than simply "Sheik is S tier, Zelda is E tier".
So we have character tiers all in a line. But how does that line twist and bend when presented with specific stages, in an X/Y chart? Is Charizard equally as bad on Delphino as he (supposedly!) is on Lylat?
I speculate nobody ever wanted to make a poll since it would be too much work to do, but in a format similar to those that @
But in this game, with this many characters? Such a list would be a hell of an undertaking, and 7 months into the games lifespan it would be filled with so much speculation that it would be largely useless.
ParanoidDrone
Smash Master
I'd argue that a tier list doesn't say "Luigi is strictly better than DK" but rather "Luigi is on average better than DK" (i.e. across all matchups, stages, etc.).
ZarroTsu
Smash Journeyman
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Catch 22.Well @ZarroTsu I'd be willing to make whatever poll if people were interested, but it does seem a bit overkill when folks can barely agree on which character is above which.
I'd reckon trying it as a separate (or alternate, for one month?) thing and seeing what the general response is. Could narrow down to only a handful of stages, of course.
What interests me the most is IF there'll a (significant) difference, and what we can actually learn from that difference. (Nobody, for example, bats and eye if Sheik and Diddy are S tier. But if, per chance, someone else gets a higher listing than either of them on a particular stage, people will wonder why. And that's much more engaging than a one-dimensional list, to me.)
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